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2012-11-22, 08:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
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2012-11-22, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
that would be a good idea (with the benefits without the problems )
then again, why isn't it allready? I mean dysphoria isn't ony for trans* people, but for genderqueer people too and possible agender (or asexual or... ok, now I'm confused you knwo what i mean... Please don't judge me for using the wrong word )
ION news I might understand by now why women wear heels even if they hurt. I bought a few very cool looking bordeax red laquered shoes and by now I feel as if my heelf are ready (and halfway done) to be chopped off... hurts like hell (to the point where walking or wearing them is agony. I guess I just need to persevere. tomorrow different shoes and the weekend will probably hold comfortshoes for me (like runningshoes or something).
for those who want more detail (spoilered for gruesome details):
SpoilerAfter blisters the size of the bottom of a coffeecup came off my heels, now the flesh underneath it is developing new blisters or tearing up alltogetherLast edited by Socratov; 2012-11-22 at 09:00 AM.
Warlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-22, 09:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
Mm, I guess. But... the point of transsexuality is that Something Is Wrong, which suggests that, well, something is wrong. And as that something wrong is somewhere in the mind/body interaction... ionno. My major gripe is the "it can't be a mental disorder, mental disorders are icky!" argument.
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2012-11-22, 11:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
In a scientific context, you are absolutely right. The problem lies in the fact that Something Is Wrong could easily be taken as Something Is Morally Wrong in other context. It is similar with the word "disorder", it implies something is not as it should be, which is considered wrong or freaky by a lot of people in society. Part of it is the fallacy of equating normal with good, but it is also in the fact that both wrong and disorder implies that there is something that should be repaired or fixed.
Repaired and fixed unfortunately often means throwing out the "broken" person or removing what makes them different, because clearly the only way to be not-wrong is to be Right, which is obviously the norm/the observer's way/what authority wants.
I personally have a problem with the use of the word disorder. It certainly has its place, but it is far too often used in cased that are questionable. Disorder means "without order", so it automatically assumes there is something to fix and that being neurotypical should be the goal (ie. the order that they are without). It can certainly be the case that something is legitimately a disorder, but it could also just be a syndrome. ^_^
Sorry for ranting, but I think that should illustrate why it is a point of discussion. GID sounds unfortunately like "Your Gender Identity is a Disorder, we must cure you of it", while Gender Dysphoria gets the point across that it is the dysphoria that is the problem.Treasured Quotes
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2012-11-22, 11:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
I'm kind of curious about that joke now...
Seriously now, for me, I do pretty well interacting with people, but as a lot of it is learned behaviour, I get rusty without practice. So it's never going to be even "effectively cured", more just patched. Though in my case it's called a "syndrome", whatever the difference there is, because it's still in a book of "disorders".Jude P.
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2012-11-22, 11:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
The problem has been that as it has been seen as a disorder, the focus has often been to make the disorder go away through treatment, rather than "encourage" it through HRT, SRS etc.
So people ahve gone to see psychs in the past and basically been told "you have a disorder and I will rid you of it and the silly thoughts that you want to change gender" rather than "you have a condition causing emotional distress. Here are the options to make you feel better".
In regards to Asta's point about severity, I was reading a book about Trans issues a while ago and it had some interesting interviews with people saying they lied about being distressed because if they didn't they'd be denied HRT as clearly it wasn't affecting them enough for them to need to change.
One account said that everyone knew the script to feed the psychiatrists to get treatment, but that the long term effect was totally skewing any data collected about rates of depression and so on.Princess in the streets.
Princess in the sheets.
Don't touch me I'm royalty.
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2012-11-22, 12:21 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
I cannot meaningfully answer this separate from the related understanding of how language impairs understanding of mental disorders. Succubus and Keveak have better ways of saying it, but I'll try again.
My concern is that "Wrong", as in you have the wrong-shaped brain, implies a "Right/Correct" because it's a word that is inherently binary. And "right/correct" has too many contexts, it's like a homophobe for itself. So hearing that one has the wrong-shaped brain in a scientific context without qualifiers as to what wrong? Shape, right, brain, etc. are in a specifically scientific context allows it to become a moral judgement wherein the best path is to remove the difference, as opposed to treat the individual. It implies that it's in the best interests of the patient to reshape their brain to be 'normal' regardless of damage to their Self than it is to allow them to function with their wrong brain shape.
Or basically what Keveak and Zorg and I believe Heliomance and Astrella said. I just felt I should respond since it was directed at me.
It's certainly not normal^, and for many people it's certainly not conducive to good mental health. And are you saying that it's a defect for someone to have depression (I'd say in a lot of cases it is, especially inasmuch as it is (usually? Often?) caused by chemical imbalances or somesuch), and that identifying it as such is a dismissive and neuronormative view? I suppose just identifying as the opposite gender might not be a disorder, but saying feeling like your whole body is Wrong isn't one seems like a pretty big stretch, and smacks more to me of dismissing the issue than identifying it as a medical one. Or is that what you're distinguishing between GID and GD?
*well, you know what I mean
^and this is not a dirty word, at least not in a medical context (culturally... Ew, Normals )
edit: Here's an avenue for a rebuttal, if you want one.
Take that woman I mentioned from My Transsexual Summer. She liked being trans, she was happy, she was healthy; there was no indication, at least as far as the show went, that her transness caused any mental or emotional problems for her, nor even social ones, at least none that got to her. She must have had problems with her body at some point as she had used the hormones and had breast implants and the like, but (iirc) she hadn't had the bottom surgery and had no intention of doing so; whatever problems she'd had with her body, she'd gotten it exactly the way she wanted it to be, or close enough to. Her transsexuality, in other words, wasn't a problem for her.
Take some other examples: a person with chronic depression, but who has gotten to the point where they don't need medication to keep themselves healthy; someone with schizophrenia, but it was diagnosed early and they were quickly put on medication, so that after a while they don't even need to use the medication anymore and never have a psychotic episode; or a person who is high-functioning autistic who has taught themselves or been taught the necessary social cues and practices to function healthily, happily and normally throughout their life.
A transsexual with no dysphoria, someone with depression who has it well managed, a schizophrenic who never has a psychotic episode, and an autistic who interacts perfectly well with otherswalk into a bar- in other words, people with mental disorders that are intrinsic to them and that they will always have, but that aren't a problem for them, that they are effectively (if not actually) "cured" of: is it still a disorder? Does it have to be a problem to be a disorder? Can it stop being a disorder and become something else? If so, what? A "condition"? I don't know. Maybe we'd have to ask someone who actually works in psychology... Where's a Smellie Hippie when you need one?
Also, yes. I believe you have to have impairment for it to be a disorder. Everyone has obsessive and compulsive tendencies. They have to interfere with your life for it to be OCD.
Yes.
... Those exist?
Why didn't anyone tell me?
Interesting. Does it play out that way? It's not a conversation we can go down meaningfully, but; this started with military service. So a transitions individual should have no problem serving unless they are denied medication, in theory. But having once had GID, would they not be sort of 'branded' henceforth?
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2012-11-22, 01:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
They probably would be branded. Although I doubt "mental illness" would add much to the stigma of a trans* person.
The only thing I could think of from a military standpoint is that such a person would be less suitable as a soldier because they need a steady supply of medicine, which can't be guaranteed under war conditions. That would of course apply to e.g. diabetics as well. And of course there's always desk jobs.Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
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2012-11-22, 02:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
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Avatar by Rain Dragon
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2012-11-22, 02:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
It would depend on how severe your gender dysphoria was before treatment, I suppose. If it's no worse than not getting your morning coffee (and some people can get very grumpy about this), then it shouldn't be a problem. If you want to cut bits off, that's a problem.
Heliomance, I agree. We have to get doctors to understand that the only treatment that works for gender dysphoria is transition (as far as the person wants to go). That this has a nearly 100% success rate. I think that progress here will come at roughly the same pace that old doctors die off...Avatar by CoffeeIncluded
Oooh, and that's a bad miss.
“Don't exercise your freedom of speech until you have exercised your freedom of thought.”
― Tim Fargo
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2012-11-22, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
... I came to appreciate that mountains make poor receptacles for dreams.
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2012-11-22, 03:41 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
I think transsexuality's listing as a mental disorder is flawed because it has more to do with a history of the psychopathologizing of GSRM people than with any ontological reality. The brain of transsexual people isn't even the problem as is. My qualms with the narrative aside, isn't "trapped in the wrong body" the script du jour when it comes to "justifying" transsexuality? The problem isn't the mind, which may be neurologically atypical all things considered, but doesn't present a problem itself. The problem is more the non-brain parts of the body, hence the need for hormones and/or SRS for a lot of transsexual and trans* people in general.
Regardless, the very notion of disability is A) taking statistical norms as evaluative norms and making atypicality a point of contentiob and B) a taking of this atypicality and failing to provide accomodations of it. Is a hearing problem still a disability with a hearing aid? Does SRS render transsexuality ability rather than disability, despite the fact that one is still trans*? In the case of trans* people, it's perfectly possible to identify as/be trans* and be comfortable if it's addressed soon enough, as I Am a Girl! exemplifies.
I am genderqueer and mentally disabled, yet feel comfortable with my body (though it could use some adjustment, but it's not a burning desire) and medicine, therapy, support and will render my mental problems managable. I'm trans* and disabled, but am I really disabled in the end? What is disability? GID/Gender Dysphoria don't really address the problem or it's social and discursive reality.
That's my problem with it.
Also, hello.
Also, also, don't do the whole *hug* thing with me.Wonder Woman (DC Girls in Sweaters Style) Avatar by Astrella.
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Faulty, now available in other flavours:
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2012-11-22, 04:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
It can be, actually. The technology is not quite capable of compensating for mine, for example. Not that it matters much, just wanted to point it out. ^_^'
Hello and welcome, hope you have much fun.
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2012-11-22, 05:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
Huh. Well, I hear you military is actually ether than mine in that regard – if you joined the US military as a woman, you'd he the combat training but you'd almos never be allowed to use it.
That's what I think the biggest problem with transsexual enlisted personnel is. Where do they put you? If you're a trans woman, that means your body can hold up to male-level physicality. If they put you with women it's a waste of a soldier, because you're capable and basically getting a pass. If they put you with the men, it's going to be a problem with your unit, since the reason you were put Ito combat readiness would be known. And as an institution, th military isn't required to care about your gender beyond "do you have enough testosterone to have been slowly building up size an mass for the last 8+ years?", so it's not even really as insulting to be filed under birth sex. Well, I mean I'm okay with it, but I'm biased.
Must be some hugely problematic asthma. Recruiters will say you'll get an easy time for it, but flat feet, asthma and an overbite are all stuff they'll accept nowadays.
Assuming this is hyperbolic exaggeration o an actual event. I got disqualified because apparently there's a minimum amount of molar required for good nutrition. To be fair though, I am leaning towards malnourished now, and I do choose some foods base on what my dentition can handle. *shrug*
For the best really. I probably wasn't mentally stable enough for active duty.
Hi again Faulty! Thanks for doing a better job with my point than me. that's been happening a lot.
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2012-11-22, 05:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
The problem with the way it's structured in the mental health system is that being trans* is narrowed down a lot and put into a single narrative. (The whole 'wrong body', 'known since very young') Add to that the fact that being trans* is still something that's rather stigmatized and the inherent power-dynamic between patient and doctor and you get a really messed up narrative. Especially since the medical sector applies their own standards about "what is X gender" which are often very cissexist / heteronormative. It's just weird and it makes me wonder why so little of the professionals actually engage the trans* community rather than applying their own views. (I got pretty lucky with my my therapist cause he is focussed on trans* youth and actually deals with a lot of different perspectives.) But when you have stuff happening like people being put at the end of waiting lists or denied treatment cause they don't want SRS enough for example...
Random blabbering aside, narratives are just something very dangerous themselves because they create a hierarchy. There's a neat Zinnia Jones article about her decision to transition which I always found very apt. Societal scripts and narratives just do a lot of damage in general.
I linked this one not long ago, but I think it's pretty suitable for this discussion as well.
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Also, hi babe~Last edited by Astrella; 2012-11-22 at 05:54 PM.
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2012-11-22, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
Recent Homebrew: The Socialite | The Crystalline: Memory Altering Construct Race | Sanguine Hand, a ToB Discipline of blood and cruelty
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2012-11-22, 06:30 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
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2012-11-22, 06:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
Hi, Faulty!
I didn't know he had asthma until he told me why he never got to enlist. This was years ago and I may be misremembering the details, but I remember him saying specifically how bummed he was that there was no wiggle room on the issue, because he basically never used the inhaler anyway. That sandbag thing totally happened though. That was awesome.
Women are in combat all the time in the US military, they just aren't allowed to have a job which is directly ground combat, like as an infantryman or artilleryman.... I came to appreciate that mountains make poor receptacles for dreams.
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2012-11-22, 07:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
Hm. Interesting. Mayhaps I was misinformed?
Man. No fun. Except the sandbag thing, that does totally rock.
Women are in combat all the time in the US military, they just aren't allowed to have a job which is directly ground combat, like as an infantryman or artilleryman.
gain though, I'm biased. If every marine is a rifleman, then that means the ther branches have dedicated riflemen and so I'm not sure what the, like, run of the mill seaman or infantryman actually do.
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2012-11-22, 07:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
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2012-11-22, 08:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
Two And A Half Men did well?! o.O
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2012-11-22, 08:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
Yeah, didn't say I was agreeing with this. >.>
Edit; It's about this episode apparently?
Gonna repeat that I'd really like seeing more trans* character who's story involvement isn't just them being trans*.Last edited by Astrella; 2012-11-22 at 08:52 PM.
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2012-11-22, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
Hm... Well, I suppose it looks about as good as you could expect TAAHM to be.
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2012-11-22, 09:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
Transgenderism's come up a few times in How I Met Your Mother, though I think always as a throwaway joke. Barney asking Ted if he wants to play "Who's Hot and Who's Scott?" with a group of models at one of their company's parties; Ted meeting Zoe for the first time while in a bad part of town and assuming she's a street-walking transsexual, saying something to the effect of "you're very convincing, mister, but I'm not interested."
In dangerous zones all military personnel have firearms on them, and if something goes down they're all expected to know how to use them. Women are less likely to get into firefights because they can't hold a job that's purpose is getting into them, but it still happens. "All the time" is an idiom meaning "occasionally."... I came to appreciate that mountains make poor receptacles for dreams.
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2012-11-22, 09:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Yes, that is true
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
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2012-11-23, 12:52 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
This Machine Surrounds Hate And Forces It To Surrender
Ponythread Learns to Draw!
SpoilerBleeeeh! Alfalfa Monster!
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2012-11-23, 02:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
@Faulty: Hi and welcome to the LGBT+ thread here in the domain of our lovely Giant in the playground. I see you don't like hugs, so I'll offer some cookies and extend my hand for a good old handshake (I hope that's okay with you, else please tell us what we can do )
ION a trans (mtf) friend of mine just got the green light from the endocrinologist. So yay by proxyWarlock Poetry?
Or ways to use me in game?
Better grab a drink...
Currently ruining Strahd's day - Avatar by the Outstanding Smuchsmuch
First Ordained Jr. Tormlet by LoyalPaladin
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2012-11-23, 03:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
So I had an interesting conversation with my filly today. It basically mirrored the thread, to a degree, with realizing that saying something is wrong with a person needs to be qualified as a non-moral judgement. And I got an interesting bit of information; she views me in the same light as a friend of hers, ecause neither of us are working toward anything and "expect surgery or a life change or something to solve our problems". I didn't bring up that I am familiar with becoming being an end unto itself, not that gear of reprisal don her was basically what's kept me in stasis.
So I basically have the go ahead to start planning my life without holding my breath ^_^! Very exciting~
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2012-11-23, 09:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
I do not know if it explains it, but pilots are certainly allowed to be of any gender in the US forces. At least, they were when Jen Peeples served, so that would place women in combat without actually fighting. I hope that is a sign that the people in the forces know how silly the rules are, and not just a sign that they think women can only be useful as something to protect.
Seaman is apparently a low-rank title, below petty officer, so they do whatever their job is, I presume. Infantrymen are the people who are sent in to fight on foot, specifically. I am no expert, but I believe a lot of marines actually have non-combat jobs (like technicians or ship crew). The rifleman training seems to be a safeguard in case things turn very sour, such that there are no unarmed civilians in the battlefield. But that is just a guess.
I am happy that there are actually so many Trans characters in mainstream media (I do not watch any of the shows mentioned, so I missed them.^_^'), but it is really sad that the basic portrayal is stereotypical and cruel. ;_;
It really feels like the mainstream media has not moved anywhere towards being open and friendly since the thirties. I am being hyperbolic, am I not? ._.
I generally would like to see more diversity among characters without their variance from being cisheteronormative pale-skinned able-bodied socialites being seen as hugely important. More characters who are trans, gay, disabled, non-native English speaker, non-mainstream or likewise as incidental traits would be lovely, but particularly trans and disabled. Those two have a tendency to be seen as defined by that one trait.
On that note, I hope that if I ever decide on a concept for a webcomic or get work on a creative project, that I can have a character be trans as an incidental trait. ^_^
Congrats by proxy! That is great!
Yay! ^_^
Sounds great, though I am not sure what "not that gear of reprisal don her" means, sorries. >_<Treasured Quotes
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2012-11-23, 10:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!
I've always liked How I Met Your Mother, but these, especially the second one, would be pretty hurtful. I might expect that sort of thing from Barney, but...
Hurray for SiuiS! I'm glad she's being so supportive!
This is what we need. People who can be gay, or trans~* or what have you (definitely not restricted to LGBTA, but I'm tired right now and not able to think clearly) who just are, and don't have that as the defining part of their character. I vote that Keveak should have a say in the character development process of all major TV shows from here on out!
I'm pretty sure it's SiuiS's phone acting badly again. What I think she meant was, "not that fear of reprisal from her."
In personal news, I had a really great time on Wednesday. I've been feeling like I've been spinning my wheels and getting nowhere recently, so my therapist and I went shopping together! I hadn't had anyone to go with (and am too nervous to go by myself), and I had a lot of fun! I tried on a lot of stuff, and apparently I've got a great figure (especially in back)! Who knew!
Now, I've finally got something to wear when just wandering about at home. My friends and I are meeting tonight for a game night, so I'm going to wear my new skinny jeans out and about for the first time .
~Phoenix~
*I propose, for the sake of those who dislike un-noted asterisks, that we move to using a squiggle (~) for "trans~". Who's with me?"It is important to draw wisdom from many different places. If you take it from only one place, it becomes rigid and stale." --Iroh
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