LGBTAitP #28: Come Taste the Rainbow!

[Mina Kobold]

It's awfully funny how they're skeptics and refuse to acknowledge the evidence that it doesn't work and also won't bother to look into the history of it.

You'd think half an hour's research and a good ten to fifteen minute write up would have sorted that out.

Sadly, the Sceptics community has had a lot of problems with that lately. Particularly regarding anyone ever mentioning feminism, which really became apparent under the hatred directed at Rebecca Watson. Hopefully we will eventually get better, but it is a long way until the majority lives up to the scepticism that we are supposed to have. ;_;

On a positive note, it seems intersectional feminism (Feminism that tries to work with causes against racism and transphobia, among others) is really getting more popular among sceptics. Yay! ^_^

Saskia, I love your posts.

My sentiments exactly. They are amazing and fascinating posts, wish I had time to write that much about science.

ION, I'm kinda tempted to do this for Hallowe'en:

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Unfortunately, I have neither the makeup nor the makeup know-how to pull it off.

I am an amateur at costuming at best, but may I suggest a simplification of the concept? A half-face mask or a split-in-the-middle mask may be a good way to achieve the effect without needing to learn how to do advanced make-up in two days.

Making the associated hair/wig and clothing more exaggerated might also be a good idea, I think. I really wish I had the chance to do that kind of stuff myself. ^_^'

I would have expected that anyone who's ever been physically attracted to someone, or had happyfuntime activities with someone, that they weren't in love with, would understand the concept of sexual aromantic. And I would expect that to be the vast majority of people.
Speaking personally, with my very-vaguely very-tentatively don't-really-care identity of mostly-heterosexual demiromantic*, I divide love up into 4 categories: familial love, sexual love, friend/platonic love, and romantic love. Usually familial love is only really compatible with platonic love, but there's been at least one situation where it's mixed up with the other two, and that felt pretty weird (note: not actually an incestuous situation. It was with a friend whom I love like a little brother, but also find pretty damn sexy-cute (*waves at* o/ You know who you are )).
I very frequently experience strong feelings of sexual and platonic love for people I have no romantic inclinations at all. More often than not this leads to trouble and misery, as I get accused of leading someone on, lying about my feelings, and/or finding myself in a Relationship or Relationship-like-relationship with someone I don't love and never will and therefore know it will end at some point. There's that whole "two out of three ain't bad, but really it totally is the worst" thing: I love you with all my heart as a friend, I love you with all my body as a lover, but I just can't conjure that spark of romance. It's not your fault, and it's not mine, it just is.
Anyway. Point being... point being... Oh yeah. Point being, I don't get how anyone who doesn't fall in love with every person they're attracted to can struggle with the idea of someone never falling in love with anyone but still being attracted to some. The reverse seems weirder to me, but I still more or less get the idea.

Also: *high-fives Saskia* o/\o I like your style.


*I originally typed that "demoromantic". Try before you buy?

I like that classification, thank you for posting it. ^_^

I think I would be very high on the familial and platonic loves. Sexual love is very much not there, but romantic may be. :3

Demoromantic: Buy the full version to continue the relationship? X3

[Asta Kask]

Saskia: Lead should float on mercury. I'm such a nerd.

Succubus: I feel demonromantic - could you come over for a a candlelit dinner later? Tell me which window you'll use as entrance - I intend to strew rosepetals on the floor to show the way to the kitchen.

*ahem*

Regarding plasticity/rigidity of LGBTA traits - this is again a red herring. It's fascinating because of what it tells us about the human brain and psyche, but it's utterly irrelevant to the question of LGBTA rights. Let's say that we found a way to alter someone's sexual orientation - so what? It would still be wrong to use it on someone's without their consent (we'd have to watch so that bigoted or well-meaning parents don't use it on their kids, but that's not more complex than saying to parents that they can't cut off a kid's ear).

[noparlpf]

*ahem*

Regarding plasticity/rigidity of LGBTA traits - this is again a red herring. It's fascinating because of what it tells us about the human brain and psyche, but it's utterly irrelevant to the question of LGBTA rights. Let's say that we found a way to alter someone's sexual orientation - so what? It would still be wrong to use it on someone's without their consent (we'd have to watch so that bigoted or well-meaning parents don't use it on their kids, but that's not more complex than saying to parents that they can't cut off a kid's ear).

Oh yeah, definitely. Bringing up genetic arguments, neurological arguments, any of it, is completely beside the point and actually detracts from the argument in some cases. The point is, people are people are people.

[Irish Musician]

The point is, people are people are people.

Exactly, as I heard in a movie at some point, though I don't remember which one, "Peoples....is peoples..."

[noparlpf]

Exactly, as I heard in a movie at some point, though I don't remember which one, "Peoples....is peoples..."

The internet suggests it might have been "The Muppets Take Manhattan".

[Kindablue]

A half-hour of research and fifteen minutes of write up are not how science works. No, not even soft sciences. That's how we got people like Freud and his entertaining, infuriating, sometimes accurate but mostly garbage analyses on sexuality. It's not actually even refusing to acknowledge in most cases. Sure there are some bad scientists, and a lot of them are in social sciences where poor methodology is slightly easier to get away with (if you don't do work for a good university or try to publish in tier 1-2 journals anyway), but most of the time what they say is something to the effect of "I'm not convinced" rather than "That's not true". Most of the ones who make the vacuous positive claim that it is not true are the ones paid by unscrupulous groups anyway.

I feel like this is just miscommunication. When I said "scientific skepticism" I meant a (mostly American) political/philosophical movement based on empiricism and, well, skepticism. Most stoics fixed shoes or played the organ, and I was talking about them more than I was Zeno, so to speak. While what you say is true in reference to professional scientists, that wasn't what Coidzor was responding to.

In proper science, ethics influences the methodology but it does not and cannot influence the results. If the results show or can even be skewed to show any slight glimpse of legitimacy of anti-whoever people, they will be abused to the fullest extent possible.

Totes.

[Irish Musician]

The internet suggests it might have been "The Muppets Take Manhattan".

......I love you so much right now........

[Absol197]

Ugh...I'm sorry I haven't been around to be helpful/supportive/silly as often as usual. I'm still having a rough time, apparently.

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

So, how is everyone elses day ?

[Mina Kobold]

Ugh...I'm sorry I haven't been around to be helpful/supportive/silly as often as usual. I'm still having a rough time, apparently.

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

So, how is everyone elses day ?

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You have no need to apologise at all. What your parents are doing is past neglectful, it is plain evil. I understand fully well that they are concerned, but they are being directly opposed to the idea of supporting who their child is, rather focussing on anything that can force things to fit in their boxes. That is just... Gah!

Sorry, sorry. I should not rant at your family. My apologies. While I am still quite scared by their actions, I think there might be a way to help them. Is there any way you could ask them to consider how they would feel at your age if they had to lie about something important (perhaps their passions or heritage?) for several years or be disallowed from being themselves and told that a few years was "only" a short time?

Another possibility is telling them that their actions are emotionally harmful. They must at least understand that no matter how much they think they are right, they should not push it to the point that their child is miserable.

I really hope some of that helps. That is a terrible situation. ;_;

*HUGS*

[Irish Musician]

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I'm sorry Phee, the first step is always the hardest, esp on a Journey that is going to take awhile, because in your head you know it will take time to get done. And try not to fault your parents too much. It is going to be hard for them to think of you one way, when, this whole time, you have been another way. This, however, will get better too. They will start to understand what it is you are going through and what it is you are trying to tell them, and eventually they will stop and listen, and finally hear you. How long this will take, who knows?! But hopefully they will start to come around. From the sounds of it, they are still trying to figure out their own emotions about it all, so give them some time to figure their own heads out, and then you all can start figuring out each others.

All of this is said with LOTS of love, and in no way am I trying to come across that you are somehow at fault or that you did anything wrong, or that you parents are jerks or something.....because I am not and you didn't in the least and they don't seem to be (just kinda confused). But big life changes take time, esp for those around you that make take the selfish route and worry about how this is affecting their lives, as opposed to trying to figure out how they can help you. I won't begin to try and say I know what you are going through, because in all honesty, I have no idea what it is like....all I can say is be patient with them. I know you have had this much patience so far, waiting to come out, etc., but just hold on for a little bit longer and things will start to get better. I truly believe people can do beautiful thing and be wonderful people, if we let each other. You have already started that process by coming out of the ashes of your former self, your parents just have to follow your example and come out of the ashes of their former world view, into a bright and gorgeous new view of the bright and gorgeous new YOU.

So keep up hope, Phee, things will be better.
Also, much hugs and love to you.....and a LOT of SUPPORT!!!

snip

I don't think they are meaning to be neglectful. They are just not sure how to process this change in their daughter's life. Though all the advice you gave Phee is awesome stuff, and I completely agree that she should use that advice. Talk to them, again, and tell them that this isn't something that can be "changed" due to a relationship or anything....this is who you are, not a phase or anything. And like our little Kobold said, no need to ever apologize

~Matthew~

[Lentrax]

Ugh...I'm sorry I haven't been around to be helpful/supportive/silly as often as usual. I'm still having a rough time, apparently.

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

So, how is everyone elses day ?

Oh, Phee. I'm sorry. This must be very rough for you. I know that its been said before, but I don't think they are purposefully trying to upset you. It will just take time. Maybe just an occasional correction. Reminding everyone, respectfully, of the proper pronouns and identification. It will be hard. it will take time.

But you are a beautiful person, Phee, and deserve to be who you wish.

Everyone else will see it too, just be patient.

[Asta Kask]

Interesting talk just gave me an experiment you could do with asexuals. It's completely non-invasive and painless - all you need to do is measure galvanic skin response, like a lie detector.

Galvanic skin response (GSR) is a measure of excitation. If you show a normal person* pictures of violent imagery, they show a GSR. Likewise if you show them pictures of naked men or women (depending on the preferences of test subject), you get a GSR. So my prediction is that a person who is asexual (and probably a demisexual as well) would show no such response.

And no, I can't think of something actually useful with the experiment (unless you wanted to screen for asexuality for some bizarre reason). And no, if you show a GSR that doesn't mean you're not asexual - it means my prediction is wrong.

*people with damage to their frontal lobes do not, and it is speculated that this is connected to their problems.

[Astrella]

Ugh...I'm sorry I haven't been around to be helpful/supportive/silly as often as usual. I'm still having a rough time, apparently.

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

So, how is everyone elses day ?

*hugs*

Are they forcing themselves on you to go with you to your therapist? Cause I think you should have that time alone; especially since dealing with your family is something you should be able to talk with your therapist about.

Hmm, about the pronouns, I guess there's the option of constantly correcting them about it, but that might end up getting frustrating. Ugh, I know it's very frustrating to feel like, well, it sorta feels like "did you guys actually listen?"...

Mrrr. I have an idea though. Do you have any way of presenting more feminine (at home / around your friends)? Clothes etc...? Even if that's not really the style you want to go for it could serve as a bit of a reminder to them / a sign you're 'serious' about this? (Yes, that's silly but it might help.)

And the whole looking yourself into a cage rang really true for me; so you have all my sympathies.

Also, pm me for my skype / email, whatever you prefer for the non-board allowed stuff. I mean, obviously you don't have to talk about it (with me), but I really don't mind and I'd like to help if I can, so if you want to, don't hesitate.

*hugs*

-----

Own ramblings:

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Ugh, I hate facial hair so much. It makes me super self conscious about even leaving my room right now, I hate it so much and no matter what I do I just can't shave without it hurting or being rashy.

Also having a little freak out about going to the store to buy a few tops which I really want to do but bleeeh....

[gunnar11]

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

So, how is everyone elses day ?

As everyone else has already said, coming out is a hard process. To be honest, trying to relate to you is a bit hard for me, as I'm very much stuck in my closet at the moment. Nevertheless I think you shouldn't blame your parents and friends so much. This is a big change; it takes a while to acustom to that.
What I do think you should do is ask them to be a bit more thoughtful. To not question wether it is true or how come it is true that you are who you are, but to try to live with it and accept it. It'll only hurt you more if they try to fight it instead of understand it.
Maybe you should also spend a little more time with your friends. They are the ones that will be able to support you when you feel down, empathise with you like always before. This little 'change' doesn't affect your personality, and as such, it shouldn't be a problem.
From the experience I have recollected from others friends accept it first, family second. And to have the support of your friends already makes a person feel a lot better.

But now, to answer your question: My day has been pretty boring, and I've been goofing off, while I should be learning cuz I have a history exam tomorrow! *runs off*

*runs back*
I forgot! *BIG hug* We're here for you
*runs off again*

[turkishproverb]

Ugh...I'm sorry I haven't been around to be helpful/supportive/silly as often as usual. I'm still having a rough time, apparently.

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

So, how is everyone elses day ?

*Hugs* I'm a little panicked, but seems like you need more hugs than me by far. Just keep at it *HUGS*

[Arachu]

*So many hugs for Pheonix and Lena*


~Bianca

[Selpharia]

Ugh...I'm sorry I haven't been around to be helpful/supportive/silly as often as usual. I'm still having a rough time, apparently.

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

So, how is everyone elses day ?

*hugs*
Ugh, that's miserable, Phee. I think you really should see if you can get your time with your therapist back for yourself, since it saeems like havin that be taken over by your parents is the biggest thing, since you don't have a privaqte space to talk about this (except with us I suppose, but that's not a meatspace option) Maybe you can ask your therapist for ideas for resources for your parents to use. The good thing is that they seem to trust her, and so they might go for something she suggests. If you can propose this without being confrontational, or get your therapist to mention it herself, then at least you can regain a little breathing space. Also, getting them to find a space to air their concerns (without you) with someone knowledgeable and ezxperienced in these things can only help in the long run

As for pronouns, you may be starting with expectations a little high here. Most of the people you've asked to change have known you for awhile, so its going to be hard to get them to switch, since you're firmly labeled in their minds. Maybe just getting them to use less masculine forms of address (if they use the classics like "man" a lot) would be a good start. I can't say much on presenting more femininely, but some subtle things like Astrelia mentioned might be a good start. Their worries about grad school and a career seem very pragmatic to me, so those at least might be dealt with by adopting a similar approach: come up with several options that satisfy their worries about your financial/job security and get you what you want earlier than their way will. All these solutions are band-aids, and really painful, but the cynic in me thinks they might be the best you're going to get in the short term

One other thing though, that can be easy to lose sight of when they're taking it upon themselves to gatekeep for you, is that they are doing what they think is best and out of good motives. This doesn't make them any less wrongheaded or hurtful, but it's good to keep in mind so you don't start a confrontation where the only possible outcome is that you lose and they restrict you more, and may help you get to common ground with them faster than if you deal with this another way, since their hand is objectively better than yours at the moment.

I'm sorry if that sounds really cold and heartless. I wanted to jsut offer comfort and a little bit of advice, but I let my inner brutal pragmatist out a little too much. *Hugs* again, and I hope you manage to work things out with them so that you can be truer to who you are.

~Laura

[Saskia]

When I said "scientific skepticism" I meant a (mostly American) political/philosophical movement based on empiricism and, well, skepticism.

...Oh. Well that explains a lot. lol

Also I'm not entirely sure what "totes" means, except a bag or a totem

Sadly, the Sceptics community has had a lot of problems with that lately. Particularly regarding anyone ever mentioning feminism, which really became apparent under the hatred directed at Rebecca Watson. Hopefully we will eventually get better, but it is a long way until the majority lives up to the scepticism that we are supposed to have. ;_;

That's true, but I can understand why so many people have such a bad taste in their mouths about feminism. Placing my own opinions aside, a disturbing number of prominent feminists have proposed artificially reducing the male population to some small percentage of the total population. Granted, any more than zero is a disturbing number for something like that, but the fact that they are not ridiculed into submission as is wont to happen with detestable people with detestable ideas in prominent positions suggests tacit approval, or at least prioritizing group cohesion over anything else; either way, it doesn't offer a good image. The fact that Mary Daly was ever given the time of day is disgraceful enough, that she was given a position as professor at such a respectable establishment as Boston College will remain a black mark on humanity's collective soul. Breeding out gays and Jews and selective abortions against girls is horrendously bigoted and unacceptable, but getting rid of men is taking a brave and noble stand? Hardly, and all of us here surely know that, as do the vast majority of people, feminists included. The problem feminism has is the same problem many other groups have though, be they religious or philosophical or political, where the most extreme and rabid members are often the loudest and most outspoken members, and that gives the entire group a bad reputation, deserved or not. What it shares with other dogmatic ideologies is a large degree of silence from members who act out taking the idea to extremes for fear of looking weak or not unified, or simply because "Well obviously that's not REAL feminism! Only a fool would think that's what we support!" While it may be true that it's not mainstream feminism, they ARE the most prominent voices for feminism in mainstream society. Finally, while the patriarchy model may be interesting and explain some things very well, it doesn't explain all problems in gender studies; "Men get harsher prison sentences than women because men rigged the system against women" requires an explanation that is... less than intuitive.

If I'm being honest, it only makes sense then that the self-described skeptical community which purports to have such a problem with dogmatic groupthink would find large swaths of feminism dubious, and again if I'm being honest I don't know that they're entirely off-base, either.

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

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That is... Harsh. I feel for you. One of my most darling friends is going through kind of the same thing. I wish it was easier for you. I respect that it's difficult for the parents since transsexualism for most older people is something entirely foreign and thus more frightening even than being gay, but it galls me all the same that they can't understand how painful it is for you when they act like transsexualism is even in the ballpark of transvestitism. It's like mistaking a baseball bat for a pen. I wish I could offer more than sympathy.

Regarding plasticity/rigidity of LGBTA traits - this is again a red herring. It's fascinating because of what it tells us about the human brain and psyche, but it's utterly irrelevant to the question of LGBTA rights.

Absolutely. Interesting, but ultimately irrelevant.

Let's say that we found a way to alter someone's sexual orientation - so what? It would still be wrong to use it on someone's without their consent (we'd have to watch so that bigoted or well-meaning parents don't use it on their kids, but that's not more complex than saying to parents that they can't cut off a kid's ear).

That's sticky territory because it relates, albeit tangentially, to religion. At least, legally. Infant circumcision should be illegal for the same reasons (I know I would be furious if my parents had decided to lop something off just 'cause, particularly something from the joy department), but it is not. This is why I'm not comfortable with the idea of studying the plasticity of sexuality and sexual identity until acceptance is more common and abuse is less likely; this line of study could be Pandora's box. While in most circumstances I'm all for advancing knowledge in all arenas, I think it would be prudent to wait a few years before pursuing this particular line of inquiry because of the harm it could do no matter the result.

[Lady Serpentine]

...Oh. Well that explains a lot. lol

Also I'm not entirely sure what "totes" means, except a bag or a totem

It's a contraction of 'totally', I believe.

Also, what is (a?) 'SPAG'?

[Kindablue]

Also I'm not entirely sure what "totes" means, except a bag or a totem

It's, like, totes a thing that brosefs say to each another when they mean "totally."

Also, what is (a?) 'SPAG'?

Spelling, Punctuation, and Grammar?

[Astrella]

I want to make the remark that prominent here means mostly academic though. People from other currents of feminism like womanism are just as prominent; just less in the spotlight cause of not being white / academic.

[Zorg]

Ugh...I'm sorry I haven't been around to be helpful/supportive/silly as often as usual. I'm still having a rough time, apparently.

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

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If you remember my rant from the last thread, I totally understand where you're coming from with feeling more restricted than before and the increasing weirdness.

I'm quite surprised your therapist is allowing your parents in still, it seems like a conflict of interests as they were hired as your therapist, not a relationship one. I'd definitely talk to the therapist and say that you need your space back (Selpharia's suggestion to get them to remove your parents is a good one).
And yes, it's hard, but you might have to tell your parents you need your own therapist to talk about your personal issues. Maybe there's a parent's support group around or online they could get info from?

In regards to them trying to hold you back, try pointing out how much faster it will be if you do it now (while you're young) and that you'll be transitioned before trying to find a job so it'll be easier than trying to transition at work.
Perhaps because I'm older and jaded, but if they told me not to tell people or whatever, I'd tell them that I'll tell whatever people I want about my business, as that is my decision and nobody elses.

It is harder being younger and more dependent on them, but they're going to have to deal with this sooner or later.

So, how is everyone elses day ?

Well I just bought a $700 coat, so I'm either very good or have lost my damn mind or both!

[turkishproverb]

can't it be both?

[Lentrax]

Well I just bought a $700 coat, so I'm either very good or have lost my damn mind or both!

Both sounds about right to me.

*Belated hugs for Pheonix*

*more hugs for everyone*

[Lycunadari]

Ugh...I'm sorry I haven't been around to be helpful/supportive/silly as often as usual. I'm still having a rough time, apparently.

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Being out to my friends and family hasn't changed any of the things I was hoping it would. I've asked both my group of friends and my parents to refer to me using female pronouns, but both groups have either forgotten, or else are too uncomfortable to do it.

The reason why I was so anxious to come out to my parents was because I don't want to be a secret anymore. But that's exactly how they're treating this. "No, you can't tell this person; Don't tell that person, either! You should just wait to do anything until you've gotten a permanent job...and gone to grad school (part time) and graduated from there...it's only a few more years, it can't be that bad, can it?"

I've started to feel really weird, too. Like, every morning when I get up for work, when I'm buttoning up my shirt it feels like I'm literally locking myself in a cage. There have been times when I just want to rip all of my clothes to shreds, so that I'm forced to go get new ones.

I feel like I'm lost - coming out was the big first step I needed to take to start along my path, but now that I've done that...I don't know where to go, and my parents are very nervous about "letting" me go anywhere. And I can't talk to my therapist about it, either - now that I've let them into that world, my parents keep wanting to talk to her. And since I don't want to just sign a release for them to talk about whatever, that means I have to bring one of them along every time I go, where we rehash things I've already figured out and dealt with ad naseum, talk about things that have no bearing whatsoever ("Well, what if he's just a transvestite, and that's it?"; "He's never really been in an adult relationship. Do you think that if he was, that could change things?").

Plus other things that are against board rules to talk about, all in all everything seems to haev settled into a big ball of gloom...

So, how is everyone elses day ?

*hugs* I sadly don't have any advise for you, but I think what the others suggested is really good? *hugs*

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Ugh, I hate facial hair so much. It makes me super self conscious about even leaving my room right now, I hate it so much and no matter what I do I just can't shave without it hurting or being rashy.

Also having a little freak out about going to the store to buy a few tops which I really want to do but bleeeh....

Are you afraid of bad reactions of the shop assistants or other customers? Then you could just say that the tops are a present for your sister/friend/whatever. That might be terrible advise, if it is, just ignore it. *hugs*

[Socratov]

Hugs for those in need/want of them.

shoulders for those who need to lean on them.

and further I have nothing to say except to people having a hard time to stay strong and that they will get there...

[Lord Raziere]

It's, like, totes a thing that brosefs say to each another when they mean "totally."

I dislike that word, in my honest opinion, that word is a barbaric and violent mangling of "totally", sounds stupid and will only confuse things further.

and now that I think about, slang in general is a stupid concept, perpetuated by people who dislike other people other than their friends understanding them in in some mindless clique-ish obsession, and thus only rendering language less comprehensible for the whole of humanity. I know, sounds a little hateful and extreme, but I'm just being slightly grumpy.

[Lentrax]

Are you afraid of bad reactions of the shop assistants or other customers? Then you could just say that the tops are a present for your sister/friend/whatever. That might be terrible advise, if it is, just ignore it. *hugs*

Online shopping as well, perhaps? I do all my shopping on the internets. At least i get the shirt I want without having to go all over. You have no idea how difficult it is to find nerdy stuff in Real Small Town, USA.

edit: It dawns on me after I posted this that some of ya'll may be from Real Small Town, USA. If you are, and you find it isn't, let me know, 'cause I would love to move.

[Heliomance]

I found someone that said they could help with makeup. I might actually be able to go half-and-half like the individual in the photo I posted!

[Lentrax]

That's awesome, Helio.

Makes me wish I could do more for Halloween. Ah well.

I'm just glad I'll be able to take the kids this year. Maybe I can do a good costume next year.