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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: Worst Prebuilt NPCs

    Quote Originally Posted by Tengu_temp View Post
    It's the last option. Wizards honestly believe that a fighter/sorcerer in equal proportions makes a viable gish, or that a cleric is a healbot who can also fight a little (but not as good as a fighter). Or at least they believed that when 3.5 was the most recent edition.
    That, I think, is the answer to the hodge-podge way some iconic NPCs are built. The Forgotten Realms NPCs are the perfect example - they were written in the earliest days of 3.0, and it seems their designers didn't know what they were doing, for the most part. It sort of looks like they went all "wow, multiclassing!" and started to multiclass the crap out of every second NPC.
    My FFRP characters. Avatar by Kris on a Stick. Sigatars by Gulaghar, Kris on a Stick and Zefir, respectively.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    One thing to keep in mind: Dweomerkeeper is a PrC for, among others, followers of Mystra. It requires (sans cheese/work) Cleric 3 for entry, but then progresses another stretch of casting. Mystic Theurge on Elminister would be weird because he doesn't tend to cast divine spells in the fiction. Dweomerkeeper, on the other hand, would make perfect sense.
    Hmm... I hadn't actually thought of this actually Great catch

    UGH! One of the things that bothers me is how little Elminster relies on magic in the fiction... It just hurts me a little bit to see such Arcane power going to waste... which is why I thought "BAM! Swordsage!" Anyway... I've been up all night and I have to start a Campaign in about 5 hours... So I'm gonna hit the hay. Seriously, this discussion has been enlightening and it has offered me some epic insight into the character and how to reorganize him. I must apologize for derailing this thread though...
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by grarrrg View Post
    Gear can be sometimes handwaved as "Found it, better than what they had".
    In the case of the Weapon, this could easily be the case.
    Likewise, he may have found the Potion and may be keeping it for NON-combat situations or...something...to save on spell slots and such.

    Basically, as long as the Gear doesn't outright HURT the character, it can be handwaved.
    Actually, I would argue that having a half-decent melee weapon is likely to get that character killed. If he's silly enough to think he should actually enter melee with that mace, 38hp, AC 16 without significant other defenses is a recipe for death at 12th level. If he's NOT silly enough to enter melee, he should sell the mace, forget ever entering melee, and buy a freaking Wisdom periapt so he can *actually cast the summoning spells* that his PrC specializes in.

    As for the leather +2, how common is that likely to be compared to, oh, a nonmagical chain shirt in most settings? (Or even, gods forbid, a mithral chain shirt?)

    So I think the mace actually does hurt the character -- and at some point it's less a matter of does the gear hurt the character -- or does the opportunity cost hurt the character?

    Perhaps more to the point, this character is UNUSABLE as printed in virtually any game. He would be a pathetic challenge not worthy of his CR, and as an ally would be likely to cost the party more in resources to keep him alive than he would bring in aid (his best positive contribution would be to be killed quickly, allowing PCs to amorally loot his mace).

    In that sense, this is the opportunity cost of having this character printed in the book. It is a waste of space, since even an unoptimized build slapped together by someone reading the class for the first time and using nothing but Core and Complete Scoundrel would almost certainly be more effective at the role defined by the PrC.

  4. - Top - End - #94
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiercel View Post
    this character is UNUSABLE as printed
    I agree with you there.
    My reply was more intended to be a "general" reply.

    My main point is that unless the equipment actively hurts the NPC, then it's 'OK'.

    Yes, as you pointed out, there are either A: Better Items, or B: should be SOLD for better items.
    But as far as Prebuilt NPC's go, unless they are wearing the "Girdle of Self-Strangulation", then it doesn't really matter to rip on the Equipment that they have.

    As for the Equipment they SHOULD but DON'T have....

  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by tiercel View Post
    Actually, I would argue that having a half-decent melee weapon is likely to get that character killed. If he's silly enough to think he should actually enter melee with that mace, 38hp, AC 16 without significant other defenses is a recipe for death at 12th level. If he's NOT silly enough to enter melee, he should sell the mace, forget ever entering melee, and buy a freaking Wisdom periapt so he can *actually cast the summoning spells* that his PrC specializes in.
    I always get the impression from the malconvoker that he loathes the creatures he summons/binds so I get the feeling that when not in combat he uses that holy mace to beat the living hell out of his summons/binds and its not like they can do anything about it, he just orders them to shut up and take it...for the good

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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiTrust View Post
    I always get the impression from the malconvoker that he loathes the creatures he summons/binds so I get the feeling that when not in combat he uses that holy mace to beat the living hell out of his summons/binds and its not like they can do anything about it, he just orders them to shut up and take it...for the good
    Unlikely. Malkonvokers cheat fiends into believing they are working for a bad guy.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    Unlikely. Malkonvokers cheat fiends into believing they are working for a bad guy.
    Fiends beat on eachother all the time, doesn't mean they still aren't the bad guys.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AntiTrust View Post
    Fiends beat on eachother all the time, doesn't mean they still aren't the bad guys.
    Not for no reason. And the holy weapon would tip the fiends off that they are being played. As would the beating. Sure, he can order them around, but they do have a chance of breaking free from his control, and even if not, they're not his slaves permanently, so they can come back for vengeance or just warn other fiends about him.
    What I think is that the NPC Malconvoker has a holy weapon in case the fiends would turn on him. It's not much, but at least it's something.
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-10-28 at 04:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Coidzor View Post
    I honestly don't recall if there's any others from back then which survived as statted up NPCs though.
    Several major players in Faerun and other old settings are the original characters of Gygax and others at his table. The characters developed over the very original rules through about the early AD&D era. When 3.+ came out they were then statted with exactly the resources available when the books they are in were published. Sometimes with the same classes and levels they had had in the previous editions.

    See, in AD&D a level in ranger got you the good TWF with no penalties to your attacks. A single level in thief got you the thief-only skills and a wizard wasn't hurt by taking a level or two of fighter if he had a good Con. So some of those guys were statted up based on what the character walked in the door with, which would have worked in an earlier version of the game but didn't do so well with the changed rules. Like the time I tried to port in a Str-paladin from 3.5 to 4e before the 4e Complete Divine had been published, the character had been turned into crap by the new rules.

    Of course none of this applies to the crappy NPCs in the Complete Foo books and elsewhere. Those are just bad.

    You really want to look at what was available to the writers at the time when the NPCs were written up. Save the worst criticism for the ones that are horrible by those standards.

    Besides, it's not like you ever killed Eleminster and Drizz-poo on accident during a Spelljammer campaign.
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    If you've nothing to say, say it any way you like. Stylistic innovations, contorted story lines or none, exotic or genderless pronouns, internal inconsistencies, the recipe for preparing your lover as a cannibal banquet: feel free. If what you have to say is important and/or difficult to follow, use the simplest language possible. If the reader doesn't get it then, let it not be your fault.

  10. - Top - End - #100
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    I beleive that their is a class based around graft called fleshsomething.Requirements are graft flesh feat, some spellcasting ability, and 4 ranks in heal. The example character has all these. Ignoring the fact that the prerequisite feat has a prerequisite of its own:10 rank in heal, which the example doesn't have (sory, AFB so I'm being pretty vague).
    Avatar by TinyMushroom.

  11. - Top - End - #101
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    Fleshwarper. Though the awkward about the feat isn't evident because they withheld the feat in the online release.
    Last edited by Coidzor; 2012-10-28 at 12:02 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    +3 Girlfriend is totally unoptimized. You are better off with a +1 Keen Witty girlfriend and then appling Greater Magic Make-up to increase her enhancement bonus.
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    Alternate interpretation: Maybe every illegal entry like that (ie. half of them) is a demonstration of early entry tricks by the designers. Clearly, this is nothing but support for Dusk Giant and Rebuilding shenanigans as RAI.

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    Picking semirandomly: Order of the Bow Initiate. (*looks at fluff, rolls eyes*) Let's see what this NPC, Garrick, does.

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    - Fighter 5/Order of the Bow Initiate 8. And a half-elf; way to not leverage that "Favored Class: Any", guys.

    - Stats are solid. Str 14 and positive Con mod. He even has a pair of +2 Gloves of Dexterity on top of an 18.

    - The skills are kinda wrong. Int 10 and Craft (Bowmaking) +4. With the minimum requirement of 5 Ranks, he should have another point. Same deal with Knowledge (Religion) being one short. I think he was originally supposed to have Int 8 or 9. Ride +17 doesn't make sense if he can only have 16 ranks and is rocking Cha 10. He seems to have 32 ranks in total if we count the prereqs as filled, though, so that at least is good.

    - In addition to prereq feats and feats from his PrC, he has Manyshot (yes!), Mounted Combat ('kay), Sharp-Shooting (umm), and Weapon Specialization (oh come on).

    - Acceptable gear.
    - - +3 composite longbow with proper strength bonus. Cool. Also arrows.
    - - +2 leather armor. His Dex mod isn't high enough that a +1 studded leather armor wouldn't do the same, but whatever.
    - - +1 greatsword. He's got a decent strength and full BAB...no melee feats, but this doesn't make me mad.
    - - Lesser bracers of archery. Good pick.
    - - Gloves of Dexterity +2. I mentioned it earlier, but, very good pick.
    - - 2 lesser arrows of undead slaying. Not going to last very long, but when your class gives you precision damage, this is a good backup.
    - - Heavy warhorse. No comment.


    Gerrick isn't optimized, but fine for a beer-and-pretzels game. I mean, +23 to hit and 30+ damage even without full attacking; that will get some attention.

    Picking semirandomly again: Holt Warden, form Complete Lack of Playtesting Champion. Let's look at Hasayla. (If anyone hasn't read the Holt Warden PrC yet, do it. It's hilarious; it's like they thought the druid wasn't even close to nature-iffic enough.)

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    - Druid 5/Holt Warden 10. This is an excellent jumpoff point; yum yum Wildshape.

    - I'm not an expert on the Druid spell list, but the typical prepared spells are intelligently selected. Entangle, Wall of Thorns, Greater Dispel Magic, Sleet Storm. A little too much healz (especially when she has a class feature that can do healz) but I'm impressed otherwise.

    - Potions of barkskin and bear's endurance, when the former has been prepared. Srsly?

    - Whoa. Those ability scores. Before racial mods and stat boosts, that's a 47 PB. Stat priority was Wisdom = Charisma > Dexterity = Constitution > Strength > Intelligence. This order makes sense; you'll see why in a moment. Positive Con mod gets a thumbs-up, too.

    - Feats: Brew Potion (sigh), Craft Magic Arms and Armor (umm), Leadership (OMG. Reason for high Charisma found), Negotiator (nope sorry just take SF [Diplo]; you're not even maxing Sense Motive), Point Blank Shot and Precise Shot (elf; what did you expect?)

    - Gosh look at that pile of skill points. Concentration +9...really, 8 Ranks at level 15? Diplomacy +23. I concur. Sense Motive has 4 Ranks, which is a letdown when you consider the synergy bonus missed for that ginormous Diplomacy score. Generally solid things to put points in outside of those.

    - Her swag is pitiable. No stat-boosting equipment. +1 hide armor of silent moves (I understand it being Hide armor, but Silent Moves when you only have 1 rank and an ACP? Lol?) and a +1 longbow, and a random ring of fire resistance for no discernible reason.

    - Fox companion. When your animal companion is 10 levels behind, you want a scouter. (Again, why does Hasayla need armor of Silent Moves?)


    Dang. That was nice. Fix the gear and tweak the skill point pile a bit, and you have a competent character.

    *flip flip flip* Legacy Champion. Let's check out Marrush.

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    - And the class he's advancing class features in is...Fighter. AHAHAHA That's kind of awesome in its failure. Enjoy your reduced BAB, the thing that otherwise supposedly makes up for a lack of features! At least being a half-orc helps.

    - His stats are good. Everything in the physical stats, mostly stength. His Dex mod of +1 works will with his full plate, and he has a Con mode of +2. And that big freaking Strength score is boosted by gauntlets of ogre power.

    - Feats: Blind-Fight ('kay), Power attack and Cleave (nice!), Dodge (really?), the Weapon Focus line all the way to Greater Weapon Spec (I know you need more to-hit, but for the love of...), Improved Initative (good), Iron Will (facepalm), Least and Lesser Legacies (class features), and Skill Focus (Knowledge [History]) (WHY!?)

    - Skill Points: A whole slew of cross-class points in K:History, and some in Intimidate. No comment.

    - His gear is mostly bling for Armor Class, though he spend it in the most efficient way. Whatever. AC 27; 28 with Dodge. Maybe that will get him somewhere. Cloak of resistance and gauntlets of ogre power are good picks. He's also got his legacy weapon but that's pointing out the obvious.


    Come to think of it, Marrush is stacking to-hit out the wazoo with his legacy weapon's Bloodlust ability and Weapon Focus lines, and he's got Power Attack. This isn't bad, but it's not good either.

    I'm getting different readings from the rest of you. It's less "completely terrible" and more "big numbers are better, but we don't know the good ways to get them".

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    You leave a thread for two days...
    Last edited by Sith_Happens; 2012-10-28 at 04:24 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cirrylius View Post
    That's how wizards beta test their new animals. If it survives Australia, it's a go. Which in hindsight explains a LOT about Australia.

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    Second Darkness campaign, premade characters in the back. Druid with Wis 15. Entangle DC: 12. -_-
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alabenson View Post
    To be fair, while CA does say a Warlock has to start as chaotic or evil, there's nothing in the class that indicates you have to stay that way. Therefore, by RAW there's nothing stopping you from changing your Warlock's alignment to whatever you feel like after character creation.
    You are required to meet the class's alignment prerequisite any time you take a level in that class, so a Warlock who changes to a prohibited alignment cannot gain further Warlock levels until he is Evil or Chaotic again. (Which means that the "Ex-Bards" section in the PHB is redundant.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    You are required to meet the class's alignment prerequisite any time you take a level in that class, so a Warlock who changes to a prohibited alignment cannot gain further Warlock levels until he is Evil or Chaotic again. (Which means that the "Ex-Bards" section in the PHB is redundant.)
    [citation needed]

    Overwhelming evidence (all "Ex-class" entries in the game, of which in Core there is one for every class with an alignment requirement) suggests otherwise. Unless you can point me to RAW that states directly that all base classes with listed alignments cannot continue to advance in the class unless they adhere to those alignments, then what you are saying is a house rule that you are misrepresenting as a real rule.

    You don't get to arbitrarily declare that a consistent rules entry from a swathe of classes is actually just reminder text, especially when WotC has never felt the need to put in reminder text on that scale.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    I can't find it because search isn't working, but Curmudgeon has very frequently pointed out that you must meet ALL prerequisites for a class in order to take a level in that class. To take a level of Bard, you must be nonlawful; that's the only specification, which is why the Ex-Bard text is redundant (though it was proper for "reminder text" to be included for clarification, since this is the corebook; Complete Arcane is not a corebook and thus doesn't provide such clarification for warlocks). Other classes such as druid and paladin cause you to lose existing class features for violating the alignment, instead of simply being able to gain more. Classes for which that is true are the only ones which actually need the "Ex-whatever" section; for all others, there is no special consequence upon changing alignment, but when you next level-up, you must choose a class for which you qualify based on your alignment at that time.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    You are required to meet the class's alignment prerequisite any time you take a level in that class, so a Warlock who changes to a prohibited alignment cannot gain further Warlock levels until he is Evil or Chaotic again. (Which means that the "Ex-Bards" section in the PHB is redundant.)
    [citation needed]

    Overwhelming evidence (all "Ex-class" entries in the game, of which in Core there is one for every class with an alignment requirement) suggests otherwise. Unless you can point me to RAW that states directly that all base classes with listed alignments cannot continue to advance in the class unless they adhere to those alignments, then what you are saying is a house rule that you are misrepresenting as a real rule.

    You don't get to arbitrarily declare that a consistent rules entry from a swathe of classes is actually just reminder text, especially when WotC has never felt the need to put in reminder text on that scale.
    By the writer of Complete Arcane himself.

    Q: What does happen if a Warlock changes his alignment to a restricted alignment?

    A: I think I'd treat it like the monk's alignment restriction. If you change alignment to something incompatible with warlock, you can't gain more levels in warlock, but you keep all your warlock abilities. (If you change it back again later, I suppose you could resume your advancement.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by willpell View Post
    I can't find it because search isn't working, but Curmudgeon has very frequently pointed out that you must meet ALL prerequisites for a class in order to take a level in that class. To take a level of Bard, you must be nonlawful; that's the only specification, which is why the Ex-Bard text is redundant (though it was proper for "reminder text" to be included for clarification, since this is the corebook; Complete Arcane is not a corebook and thus doesn't provide such clarification for warlocks). Other classes such as druid and paladin cause you to lose existing class features for violating the alignment, instead of simply being able to gain more. Classes for which that is true are the only ones which actually need the "Ex-whatever" section; for all others, there is no special consequence upon changing alignment, but when you next level-up, you must choose a class for which you qualify based on your alignment at that time.
    "I can't find it" isn't evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    "I think I would..." is about as far from RAW as you can get.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2012-10-28 at 11:45 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
    Perhaps this will sate Flickerdart's endless hunger for assassinations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    "I think I would..." is about as far from RAW as you can get.
    Wonderful. I respect an opinionated man. Fight to the end to prove yourself right!
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    But he's right. It's not in the rules.

    Some classes have rules regulating what happens if they break alignment restrictions, others don't.

    If you're in the don't category, you shouldn't need to bother.

    And the notion that a person who draws their power source from some fey faint in their bloodline could suddenly lose it if they started putting money into the collection box instead of giving to beggars is not the sort of thing I want my PCs to worry about.
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    Take a look at Tobilar. He's the Bereft on pg. 211 of Tome of Magic. Specifically, he's a Fighter 10/Bereft 1. Because, you know, that makes sense. (In addition to perhaps being the weakest PrC in the entire chapter, it's also got Wizard BAB. Just throwing that out there.) He's a pretty generic unoptimized Fighter, aside from his inexplicable interest in Truenaming. Great Cleave, Improved Sunder, and so on. He has Improved Initiative, but his init score is still +1, so no idea where THAT went.

    He's also got a +20 Truespeak mod. I will mention that he's CR 11, so against an even-level enemy, he succeeds on a Truespeak check by rolling a 17. If he does so, the only thing he can do is use the Syllable of Detachment, which will inflict a 2 on his target's attacks, saves, and checks for one round. Which is totally worth the effort at level 11. That is, of course, a 20% chance of making your opponent have a 10% worse chance of doing something. For one round. Awesome.

    I'm honestly not sure which is worse, a level 15 Fighter, or a Fighter 10/Bereft 5. (Tobilar is just a Fighter 10/Bereft 1, but give him time.)

    I will, however, applaud the artist for including his Lesser Amulet of the Silver Tongue in the image.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Do you play 4e? I wrote a guide to Truenamers in 4e as well!
    Here's something I homebrewed. (It's not Truenamer-related, honest.) PEACH!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Wonderful. I respect an opinionated man. Fight to the end to prove yourself right!
    I don't need to fight for anything. Not only is the writer's quote not in the book, the writer is saying "this is how I would personally rule, I think" not "this is how I intended it to be from the start and I'm sure of it". As evidence, it is utterly meaningless. As a suggestion, it's worth considering.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?
    Quote Originally Posted by Guancyto View Post
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  25. - Top - End - #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    Not for no reason. And the holy weapon would tip the fiends off that they are being played. As would the beating. Sure, he can order them around, but they do have a chance of breaking free from his control, and even if not, they're not his slaves permanently, so they can come back for vengeance or just warn other fiends about him.
    What I think is that the NPC Malconvoker has a holy weapon in case the fiends would turn on him. It's not much, but at least it's something.
    I think it could be for both, what better than a holy weapon to deal with your hard to train fiends. In terms of coming back for vengeance, well that's going to be a concern regardless, its stressed as a problem within the text of the prc, but I'll end it here, sort of off topic from the original topic.
    Last edited by AntiTrust; 2012-10-29 at 01:00 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I don't need to fight for anything. Not only is the writer's quote not in the book, the writer is saying "this is how I would personally rule, I think" not "this is how I intended it to be from the start and I'm sure of it". As evidence, it is utterly meaningless. As a suggestion, it's worth considering.
    Alright so if the writer walked up to you and told you "I regret not doing [This] for the book, so you should reasonably play it like that." You would respond by telling him "Well it's NOT in the book so whatever you have to say should be ignored." (A very extreme example, but it seems to capture a popular stance on this forum quite nicely if I say so myself.)

    I've heard people throw around the term RAI (Rules as Intended), but most usually scoff at it because of the "powerful" argument "You have no idea what the writer intended", but here we have is an example of what the writer actually intended and you (and most likely everyone else) is going to ignore it by saying it was merely a suggestion. Alrighty then; Lets just pretend this short discussion never happened and get back to the topic at hand.
    Last edited by Arcanist; 2012-10-29 at 02:00 AM.
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  27. - Top - End - #117
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    Quote Originally Posted by Arcanist View Post
    Alright so if the writer walked up to you and told you "I regret not doing [This] for the book, so you should reasonably play it like that." You would respond by telling him "Well it's NOT in the book so whatever you have to say should be ignored." (A very extreme example, but it seems to capture a popular stance on this forum quite nicely if I say so myself.)

    I've heard people throw around the term RAI (Rules as Intended), but most usually scoff at it because of the "powerful" argument "You have no idea what the writer intended", but here we have is an example of what the writer actually intended and you (and most likely everyone else) is going to ignore it by saying it was merely a suggestion. Alrighty then; Lets just pretend this short discussion never happened and get back to the topic at hand.
    ...right, so I'll just go add a good fort save and multiple uses of the Curse to my current Hexblade character based on what the writer said unofficially afterward. And then pretend it's a rule?

    We do what the rules say. What the writer claimed he intended afterwards in an unofficial interview does not equal rules.

    And please stop patronising people who disagree with you. Your tone is not the best.
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  28. - Top - End - #118
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    ...right, so I'll just go add a good fort save and multiple uses of the Curse to my current Hexblade character based on what the writer said unofficially afterward. And then pretend it's a rule?

    We do what the rules say. What the writer claimed he intended afterwards in an unofficial interview does not equal rules.

    And please stop patronising people who disagree with you. Your tone is not the best.
    while stuff like the hexblade fix isn't by any means RAW, it's certainly nice to have options available.

    a good example for me of when non-RAW stuff can be of more value than just popular consensus is probably that big FAQ thread they had on BoVD a few years back. it wasn't even a case of "rules around ability xyz are confusing" more like "rules around xyz do not exist" so it was less a case of "does it work this way or that way" and more a case of "we really have nowhere to go from here.

    knowing that RAI was for disciples of mephistopheles can use hellfire blast 1/day/class level is actually kind of nice to know. I might not necessarily use it in my game, but as is, they can just use it as often as they like. any restriction imposed by me running a game without access to the errata wouldn't really have a basis in the RAW like certain other issues do.

    honestly, while designers don't always have the best ideas "off the record" as it were, it's sometimes just as helpful to get their input so we know how we don't want to apply fixes.
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  29. - Top - End - #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    But he's right. It's not in the rules.
    As someone recently pointed out, it's not in the rules that humans need to breathe oxygen, only that they need to breathe something. Likewise, it is in the rules that a character at -1 hit points can be healed by making him start drowning. Quit claiming that everything in the rules is right and everything not in the rules is wrong. It quickly passes the point of sanity, so just stop doing it, and admit that some amount of common-sense interpretation is absolutely necessary to ever accomplish anything. Exactly how much is certainly worth arguing about, but "that's not raaaaaw!" is not an excuse to terminate every such argument as requiring no further discussion. We don't need citations, we just need to use our heads and figure out what seems reasonable.

    And the notion that a person who draws their power source from some fey faint in their bloodline could suddenly lose it if they started putting money into the collection box instead of giving to beggars is not the sort of thing I want my PCs to worry about.
    They won't lose anything, they just won't be able to gain anything. Taking more levels of warlock means tapping into the inner source of your dark and/or wild powers, drawing forth new abilities from the wellspring of your arcane energies. If you're busy being disciplined, generous, or totally pragmatic, and you never give in to a destructive or selfish or simply mercurial whim, then you're like a Drunken Kung-Fu Master who's on the wagon - you still know all the moves you've ever practiced and can perform them competently enough by rote, but you can't come up with new movies that rely on you being sauced when you have only a distant memory of what it's like to be sauced.

    You need inspiration that comes from the root of your powers in order for those powers to evolve; if you want to stick to the straight and narrow path, you'll have to develop other skillsets for a while. (There are some peculiarities about multiclass penalties, BAB starting at 0 for non-fullbab classes, and various issues with Skills, but all of those are due to baked-in rigidities of the system, and you can probably talk a decent GM into working with you on getting around them, as long as it's clear you're not just being a munchkin and trying to get away with crap.)

    Quote Originally Posted by AntiTrust View Post
    I think it could be for both, what better than a holy weapon to deal with your hard to train fiends.
    The problem is that if you're claiming to be Evil, you'd look like an idiot to carry a Holy Mace, as there's no way that it would be useful enough to be worth the negative level you take for holding it. So you'd be tipping off the fiends you're trying to con that you're almost certainly not what you say you are. Either you're Good or you're gimping yourself, and either way you lose the respect of your "minions" and quite possibly get attacked by them.
    Last edited by willpell; 2012-10-29 at 02:51 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #120
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    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    ...right, so I'll just go add a good fort save and multiple uses of the Curse to my current Hexblade character based on what the writer said unofficially afterward. And then pretend it's a rule?

    We do what the rules say. What the writer claimed he intended afterwards in an unofficial interview does not equal rules.
    The rules contradict each other time and time again (check with CustServ for more hilarious results). So I guess when an official remark on the Warlock directs the reader to that very thread it is still viewed as "unofficial". I've stated my views, supported them and was told I was wrong. I'm home

    Quote Originally Posted by Marlowe View Post
    And please stop patronising people who disagree with you. Your tone is not the best.
    I actually tried to drop the topic, but you decided to attack and somehow I'm the bad guy. Wonderful. If anything, I'm being cynical towards his stance, but as said. Let's drop this conversation and get back on topic shall we? (if you'd like to continue this please PM me your thoughts and opinions)
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