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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    DrowGuy

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    Default Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Maked the following changes to the charge action:

    Charge: You may move in a straight line, attacking at the end of your movement. Doing this incurs a -2 penalty to AC until the start of your next turn as the momentum unbalances you. Charging is a full round action. When you charge, you choose between the following option.
    Long charge: Move up to twice your speed and make a single attack with a +2 bonus.
    Short charge: Move up to your speed and make a full attack.

    Would this work as a compromise? The spirit lion totem barbarian is no longer a must, but still a useful dip. More expensive forms of pounce may need to be beefed up now that the baseline is higher.
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    I think you want to post this in the homebrew section.

    And to answer your question: it depends on what you mean by "work."

    Will this make fighters more fun to play? Maybe. Getting the +2 to attacks is nice, and IMO not a worthless use of a level. OTOH, getting more attacks is great for just about all melee combatants. At any rate, this is a rule that could be adjusted to.

    The main problem, IMO, is that iterative attacks tend to miss. Especially numbers 3 & 4. So this rule would work nicely for people that can use it with TWF (like Scouts), while at the same time not really affecting 2H fighters/barbarians.
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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    If it works also for monsters, it can really unbalance some creatures, so be careful!

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Suggestion, instead of using charge mechanic:

    Each BAB iterative allows an additional 5 ft of movement and still full attack. That is, at +6/+1 the fighter can move 10 ft and full attack. At +11/+6/+1 he can move 15 ft and full attack. At +16/+11/+6/+1 he can move 20 ft and full attack. Only allow this for full BAB classes. Rogues can spend a talent for the ability. Monks can do it as part of Flurry of Blows, allowing for more movement since they get more iterative attacks.

    Make each extra 5 ft of movement a class feature for the appropriate level to handle multiclassing, stacking from 1st level between classes like Uncanny Dodge so that a fighter 4/barbarian 2 can have the 10 ft movement and full attack but a fighter 4/cleric 3 would not since cleric would not have the class feature to stack.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by navar100 View Post
    Suggestion, instead of using charge mechanic:

    Each BAB iterative allows an additional 5 ft of movement and still full attack. That is, at +6/+1 the fighter can move 10 ft and full attack. At +11/+6/+1 he can move 15 ft and full attack. At +16/+11/+6/+1 he can move 20 ft and full attack.
    I like this! But I don't like ...
    Only allow this for full BAB classes.
    Why? Partial BAB classes are already hobbled in combat by having, you know, lower BAB. And what about multiclassing? Seems like Barbarian 10 can do it, but after gaining a level and becoming Barbarian 10/Rogue 1 he suddenly cannot?

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    Why? Partial BAB classes are already hobbled in combat by having, you know, lower BAB.
    Not sure the poster's intent, but I can see an argument made that it shold work this way to keep that ability out of the hands of big-bab monsters. Until they take enough levels in a martial class, they don't get that training.

    And what about multiclassing? Seems like Barbarian 10 can do it, but after gaining a level and becoming Barbarian 10/Rogue 1 he suddenly cannot?
    Well, he'd still have a +10/+5 BAB, and his Barb ability to take an extra 5 feet (from Barb 6). So he's not forgetting anything.

    Still, it might work better as a single class feature that hits once and scales, rather than separate stacking features. So, at some hard-to-dip level, you get the ability to move an extra 5' per iterative during a full attack.

    Put it at different levels for different classes. Fighters might get it at 5th (can't use it until 6th, but they have the best martial training and this makes it usable for prestige classes and whatnot), Barbs at 6th, Paladins not till 9th, or whatever.

    Another pet rule of mine is to grant AoOs on a per-BAB basis. So, at +6/+1, you have two AoOs (one at +6, one at +1). If you make it a class feature, then, again, give it to Fighters somewhat early, maybe Rogues and Monks, too. Other classes ... maybe, maybe not.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    How to make melee mobile....use ToB.

    Strikes, while often less awesome than full attacks are generally more awesome than single attacks. Thus, there is still an advantage to full attack, but if it its not a tactically sound option, you aren't working at 25% or less of your full potential.
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    I like this! But I don't like ...

    Why? Partial BAB classes are already hobbled in combat by having, you know, lower BAB. And what about multiclassing? Seems like Barbarian 10 can do it, but after gaining a level and becoming Barbarian 10/Rogue 1 he suddenly cannot?
    Yes. Rogue 10 sneak attacks for 5d6 damage. If at level 11 he multiclasses into wizard he doesn't get 6d6 sneak attack an 11th level rogue would.

    The idea is warriors need more nice things while spellcasters don't. A spellcaster can move 30 ft and still cast his great spell of awesomeness. A warrior who moves 30 ft only gets one attack, even at 20th level, losing his other 3, more if hasted or uses two-weapon fighting. He's punished in his power for moving while the spellcaster is not. This house rule idea mitigates that problem if not accepting the idea of junking RAW entirely and let anyone full attack regardless of movement every time all the time. Limiting it to full BAB classes means clerics and druids don't get it. Druids get pounce in wild shape instead. By making it a class feature, a cleric couldn't even cast Divine Power which changes his BAB to get it. I don't think he'll cry because he has to cast Harm or Miracle instead.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Here's a simple house rule I use in my games: You can split a regular move around a non-moving move action. That lets you, for instance:
    • move to a door, open it, and go through (using the rest of your movement)
    • move a bit, strew a bag of caltrops, and continue moving
    It's a small change in the rules, but occasionally a big difference in how long it takes to do fairly simple things in the mechanics of the game.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by navar100 View Post
    Yes. Rogue 10 sneak attacks for 5d6 damage. If at level 11 he multiclasses into wizard he doesn't get 6d6 sneak attack an 11th level rogue would.

    The idea is warriors need more nice things while spellcasters don't. A spellcaster can move 30 ft and still cast his great spell of awesomeness. A warrior who moves 30 ft only gets one attack, even at 20th level, losing his other 3, more if hasted or uses two-weapon fighting. He's punished in his power for moving while the spellcaster is not. This house rule idea mitigates that problem if not accepting the idea of junking RAW entirely and let anyone full attack regardless of movement every time all the time. Limiting it to full BAB classes means clerics and druids don't get it. Druids get pounce in wild shape instead. By making it a class feature, a cleric couldn't even cast Divine Power which changes his BAB to get it. I don't think he'll cry because he has to cast Harm or Miracle instead.
    Considering spellcasters, in general, don't actually use their BAB, by only giving the ability to characters with full BAB, all you're really doing is screwing over the martial characters with 3/4 BAB, and multi-classers.

    The easiest way to apply this rule is to just let characters full attack as a standard action, and be done with it. But even then, you're looking at inadvertently beefing up melee monsters by giving them a full attack every round.

    Honestly, the problem isn't a simple fix without arbitrary restrictions.
    Last edited by Greyfeld85; 2012-10-25 at 07:20 PM.
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfeld85 View Post
    Considering spellcasters, in general, don't actually use their BAB, by only giving the ability to characters with full BAB, all you're really doing is screwing over the martial characters with 3/4 BAB, and multi-classers.

    The easiest way to apply this rule is to just let characters full attack as a standard action, and be done with it. But even then, you're looking at inadvertently beefing up melee monsters by giving them a full attack every round.

    Honestly, the problem isn't a simple fix without arbitrary restrictions.
    Martial classes of 3/4 BAB tend to be ones who get a lot more stuff than full BAB classes. Psy Warriors, for example, can take Hustle to be able to move then full attack on their own already. Swordsage, maneuvers, done. Although, Crusaders and Warblades don't need this house rule.

    Multiclass characters are not screwed over. Those who multi-class between full BAB classes get the benefit, as I said. Those who multi-class with spellcasters get spells instead.

    I said nothing about monsters. This is for PC classes, but if an orc barbarian or drow ranger benefit I won't get apoplectic about it.

    Edit: Clerics and druids do use their BAB. They don't need this house rule either.
    Last edited by navar100; 2012-10-25 at 08:51 PM.

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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by navar100 View Post
    Martial classes of 3/4 BAB tend to be ones who get a lot more stuff than full BAB classes. Psy Warriors, for example, can take Hustle to be able to move then full attack on their own already. Swordsage, maneuvers, done. Although, Crusaders and Warblades don't need this house rule.
    This simply isn't true. The only full BAB class that doesn't have additional class features is the Fighter class. Ranger, Paladin, Crusader, Warblade, Barbarian, Hexblade, Duskblade, Samurai, Swashbuckler, Knight... every single one of these classes has full BAB and additional class features (how useful these features are is up for debate, but the fact that they exist nixes your assertion), and/or more skill points.

    This is by no means limited to 3/4 BAB classes.
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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Greyfeld85 View Post
    This simply isn't true. The only full BAB class that doesn't have additional class features is the Fighter class. Ranger, Paladin, Crusader, Warblade, Barbarian, Hexblade, Duskblade, Samurai, Swashbuckler, Knight... every single one of these classes has full BAB and additional class features (how useful these features are is up for debate, but the fact that they exist nixes your assertion), and/or more skill points.

    This is by no means limited to 3/4 BAB classes.
    I already said Crusaders and Warblades don't need this. Knight, Samurai, Paladin, Ranger can get it happily. Hexblade, Barbarian, go hog wild.

    I haven't even touched upon prestige classes. If it's a full BAB prestige class that does not give +1 spellcasting level, then go for it. It can still benefit if it has its own small number of spells progression since I'm allowing paladins and rangers to have it. Correction: If the +1 spell progression is advancing paladin/ranger spell progression then it could have it. This makes it a case by case basis. A prestige class advancing paladin progression is a significant difference than the same prestige class advancing cleric progression. I'm perfectly happy it is such without it being a blanket rule for every prestige class everywhere in existence. I can't account for them all. A blanket rule isn't necessary. One only need concern oneself for the particular campaign that's happening at the moment.
    Last edited by navar100; 2012-10-25 at 10:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    What about multiclassed characters? What about say...a Fighter2/Warblade18? Does he have enough "fighter" in him to get to do this? He is full BAB, after all. What about something gishy, like a Sorcadin? 2 levels of Paladin in there, that's on your approved list?

    Its all fine and dandy when talking about straight classed characters, but it really falls apart when you throw multiclassing into it. How much is too much? How much is not enough?

    I'm sorry, I don't think its a good rule. There are already tons of ways to decrease dependance on a full attack and/or increase mobility of a martial types. This is not it.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    For moving and full-attacking, how about being able to move a percentage of your current base speed for every point of BAB you have?

    The obvious starting point is 5% per point of BAB, which grants a 20th level full-BAB character the ability to move all their speed and then full-attack. When it comes online at level 6, a character with 30ft move speed can move an extra five feet over the standard five-foot step you get in a full attack action. Not sure where that move has to be though -- before all the attacks, after them, split before and after (and between?) as the player desires?

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    I have run and played in games where full attacking was a standard action (i.e. you could charge and get one attack or move and full attack and get full attack) and zero ****s were given. It didn't 'unbalance' melee (pffffffffsh lol), and melee still gronked out compared to unoptimized casters at about level 8. What it really helped, though, was melee rogues.

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Agreed. Full attack as standard action is a good houserule: it makes two-weapon fighting more viable, it gives martial classes more variety (not all have to have a lion totem barbarian dip, and be forced to charge every single round of combat).

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    The problem with making Move & Full Attack a default mode is that everybody can use it. This kind of nixes the need for tactical evaluation, and makes it almost impossible to deny the NPCs their Full Attacks against you (as PC).

    In Conan D20, btw, the basic movement rule has been changed: by default, everyone can move both before and after an attack, as long as the total movement doesn't exceed their single speed.
    So basically that comes down to much fewer Full Attacks (which kinda sucks for TWFers).
    The one class that gets around this is the Barbarian, who at higher levels (15 or so) can both Move and Full Attack every turn. And yes, this does make the Barb the single best combat class in the game, as you might expect from a _Conan_ adaptation. ;)

    So, long story short... it's desirable that not _everyone_ can move and full attack automatically.
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    Darius Kane's Avatar

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Gwendol View Post
    Agreed. Full attack as standard action is a good houserule: it makes two-weapon fighting more viable, it gives martial classes more variety (not all have to have a lion totem barbarian dip, and be forced to charge every single round of combat).
    But that way single attacks become far less useful, if not obsolete. By single attacks I mean feats or abilities that give benefits, but only on a single attack.

    I like Navar's idea, but personally I use a houserule that allows bonus/extra attacks from feats, spells, class features, etc. to be added to a normal standard action attack. That makes investing into TWF or other feats of that type actually worth it, because they get to be used much more often. It's a quasi-partial full attack.

    Navar, I suggest the following change:
    Instead of +5 ft. per iterative, make it a portion of the base speed of the creature, something like 25% per iterative, rounded up.
    For a 30 feet base speed it will be 10 ft. at +1 BaB, 15 ft. at +6, 25 ft. at +11 and 30 ft. at +16.
    For a 20 feet base speed it will be 10 ft. at +6, 15 ft. at +11 and 20 ft. at +16.
    For a 40 feet base speed it will be 10 ft. at +1, 20 ft. at +6, 30 ft. at +11 and 40 ft. at +16.
    What ya think?

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    That sounds unnecessarily complex and annoying.

    Why not just make full attacks a standard action.

    And hell, if you spend a full round attacking, you can have an extra attack. There you go.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    That sounds unnecessarily complex and annoying.
    Why are you playing D&D if that's a problem?
    I don't consider my houserule to be complex, nor annoying.

    Why not just make full attacks a standard action.
    Firechanter and I explained why.
    And just because it might not unbalance things doesn't automatically mean it's a good idea.
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-10-26 at 10:13 AM.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    What about multiclassed characters? What about say...a Fighter2/Warblade18? Does he have enough "fighter" in him to get to do this? He is full BAB, after all. What about something gishy, like a Sorcadin? 2 levels of Paladin in there, that's on your approved list?

    Its all fine and dandy when talking about straight classed characters, but it really falls apart when you throw multiclassing into it. How much is too much? How much is not enough?

    I'm sorry, I don't think its a good rule. There are already tons of ways to decrease dependance on a full attack and/or increase mobility of a martial types. This is not it.
    Multiclassing stacks as in Uncanny Dodge, as I mentioned. A Fighter 4/Barbarian 2 gets to move 10 ft and full attack. A Sorcadin cannot count his Sorcerer levels because Sorcerer does not have full BAB and thus not have the class feature. However, every 6 Paladin levels he has will give him another 5 ft of movement. If he goes into a prestige class, that falls into case by case basis. I can't account for every prestige class everywhere and all ways one enters the prestige class. It only matters for that instance of the campaign.

    As for Warblade, technically Warblade/Fighter would benefit because Warblade is a full BAB class. However, as I already mentioned, Warblade doesn't really need the house rule. In any case, if you really, really just want to use the idea for everyone regardless of class, such that the 20th level cleric or druid can move 15 ft and full attack, go ahead. My point was they didn't need the boost, but if you're so enraged by the denial, let them do it.
    Last edited by navar100; 2012-10-26 at 12:56 PM.

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    Griffon

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post

    Navar, I suggest the following change:
    Instead of +5 ft. per iterative, make it a portion of the base speed of the creature, something like 25% per iterative, rounded up.
    For a 30 feet base speed it will be 10 ft. at +1 BaB, 15 ft. at +6, 25 ft. at +11 and 30 ft. at +16.
    For a 20 feet base speed it will be 10 ft. at +6, 15 ft. at +11 and 20 ft. at +16.
    For a 40 feet base speed it will be 10 ft. at +1, 20 ft. at +6, 30 ft. at +11 and 40 ft. at +16.
    What ya think?
    Not aesthetically pleasing to me. How does it interact with Slow, Haste, Fly, and wearing armor? Keeping it based on BAB alone ties it to the character's skill, not racial choice or possibly spells. I don't vehemently object to it, just not my cup of tea.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    Why are you playing D&D if that's a problem?
    I don't consider my houserule to be complex, nor annoying.


    Firechanter and I explained why.
    And just because it might not unbalance things doesn't automatically mean it's a good idea.
    If you want DnD to be more complex and annoying than it needs to be, roll 3d20 and then roll 1d3 to choose which of the 3 you actually rolled.

    Anything that requires looking up a table to see how far you can move is annoying. It slows down play, and people will get it wrong, and all the rest of that.

    Firechanter and you said 'single attacks will become obsolete'. I respond with 'so what'. I even gave a reason to keep full round action attacks in the game if you want them to be in - a free attack if you do it. There you go.

    Something that keeps a bonus for standing still right next to your opponent that doesn't mean that every melee character needs to be a lion totem barbarian, or go look up a table to see what their charge range is every time they gain a level.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    If you want DnD to be more complex and annoying than it needs to be, roll 3d20 and then roll 1d3 to choose which of the 3 you actually rolled.
    D&D already is complex. I'm just accepting it and not making a big deal out of it.

    Firechanter and you said 'single attacks will become obsolete'. I respond with 'so what'.
    Some people care. You do not. That's cool for you.

    Something that keeps a bonus for standing still right next to your opponent that doesn't mean that every melee character needs to be a lion totem barbarian, or go look up a table to see what their charge range is every time they gain a level.
    I don't understand what you're saying. What about Lion Totem Barbarian? It still is useful, even with this houserule.
    And charge range doesn't change. It's always minimum 10 ft. and up to your double move speed, IIRC.

    How does it interact with Slow, Haste, Fly, and wearing armor?
    Other than armor, does any of this things change base speed? Spells or effects that change your form might if you change into something with a different speed.
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-10-26 at 01:59 PM.

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    SolithKnightGuy

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    DnD's complexity is at least arguably necessary for the game style (wargaming, simulationey) that it portrays.


    No, really, So What? Not in the sense of I don't care, So What ACTUAL difference is made with that rule change? Especially if we add in a way for people to benefit on a full round attack action anyway? Fundamentally everything is the same except melee are less boned.


    Charge range, according to your sheet thingy, changes at various levels of BAB. And by 'charge range', I mean 'charge + full attack, i.e. the action you care about'. If you think melee characters don't mind doing single attacks and love being useless and pointless for a round, then you a) play in very low op games and b) are different to literally 99% of other DnD players in that regard.

    Theoretically yes people CAN be useless, i'm talking about that other thing, though, when melee characters get to contribute to the game and do damage and hit stuff and all those other things people like doing in dungeons and dragons.

    And as for Lion Totem Barbarians, they are the cheap and easy way for people to get Pounce, which many, many people do in DnD as melee characters because otherwise you waste about half your rounds Not Full Attacking (tm).


    And from that last question, perhaps you can already see the confusion people will have with your oh so simple houserule. Not to mention that it doesn't change anything about how full attacks work except extending the 'full attack range' from 5' to 10' (and hey, 15' or something at higher levels, amirite) unless you beg a polymorph from the wizard to turn you into something with a high base speed....................... why not just get turned into a werelion, and then have Pounce? Problem Solved!

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Charge range, according to your sheet thingy, changes at various levels of BAB.
    Except I'm not talking about charging. This houserule is MOVE + full attack.

    If you think melee characters don't mind doing single attacks and love being useless and pointless for a round, then you a) play in very low op games and b) are different to literally 99% of other DnD players in that regard.
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-11-04 at 03:50 PM.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Wouldn't it be easier to simply add things to attacks so the single attacks are worth more? Things like free trips, bullrushes, grapple attempts, overruns, etc. whenever you make a lone unaugmented attack so that the attack is actually worth something.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    Wouldn't it be easier to simply add things to attacks so the single attacks are worth more? Things like free trips, bullrushes, grapple attempts, overruns, etc. whenever you make a lone unaugmented attack so that the attack is actually worth something.
    I consider making one houserule to be easier than making multiple houserules.
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-10-26 at 11:56 PM.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    I consider making one houserule to be easier than making multiple houserules.
    That is one houserule. Those particular abilities normally take a standard action to use; just make it so you can use an attack along with them as a standard action.

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