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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    I like this idea, aside from the multiclassing issues and "only for full attack classes" stuff others have mentioned. What about just making it a specific Fighter feature, possibly some other select martial classes?
    Or a feat.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    Or a feat.
    If you make it a feat, classes that don't need the help can take it. Unless you set certain pre-reqs (i.e. "Fighter 4, Ranger 4, Monk 4, Sneak Attack +3d6" etc). But then you have to decide what level of what classes is appropriate and specifically spell them all out.
    Last edited by Kesnit; 2012-10-29 at 04:12 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    If you make it a feat, classes that don't need the help can take it.
    If they don't need the help then why are they taking it?
    Personally I would just make it a change to the basic rule. Not a feat or class feature. Of course it would work only with BaB from actual class levels, so that monsters with high BaBs wouldn't get too dangerous.

  4. - Top - End - #64
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Because they want to be strong?

    This is why there are gishes with battle jump and leap attack.

    {Scrubbed}

    Also there is absolutely no reason to not let fighters move and full attack until like bab 11. What reasoning do you have for making fighters (especially anyone using TWF) terrible at fighting for 11 levels? Most games END before level 11.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-11-04 at 04:04 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #65
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Bah! DM's have ways to let monsters full attack the PC's anyway if wanted. It's a bit naive to think that only players have access to e.g. anklets of translocation. Allowing full attacks as standard action makes fighters and rogues (types) more effective, without being overpowering, and also makes for intense higher level boss fights. My guess is that it will drive up the want for higher AC (to de-risk the iterative attacks landing) coupled with a continued dependence on miss-chances and concealement.

    In any case it is a good houserule as any to make melee more mobile and effective, while still keeping it simple. Full BAB classes will likely come up on top simply by virtue of having access to more iteratives (and better chance of landing them). Duskblades are likely to be very fun past level 13...

  6. - Top - End - #66
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

    Also there is absolutely no reason to not let fighters move and full attack until like bab 11. What reasoning do you have for making fighters (especially anyone using TWF) terrible at fighting for 11 levels? Most games END before level 11.
    Please, save the strawmen for someone else.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-11-04 at 04:05 PM.

  7. - Top - End - #67
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    Or a feat.
    You could do it that way, but I like the idea of it being available to Fighters, at least, without having to spend that precious resourse. To the point where I'm seriously considering adding it as a houserule.
    Anyone know of a comprehensive compilation of alternate Fighter features, and if something like this is on it?

  8. - Top - End - #68
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Anyone know of a comprehensive compilation of alternate Fighter features, and if something like this is on it?
    IIRC, there's nothing even remotely like that.

    BTW, I'll repost MY houserule (for the second time):
    "You can add any extra/bonus attacks (other than iterative attacks) to a standard action attack."
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-10-29 at 05:57 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #69
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    If there isn't, then I may go make one.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    What about other martial classes?

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Fighter is the one most notorious for being subpar, at least in Core, and in my opinion it should be the easiest to fix. It's also possibly the most boring. I don't know enough about other martial classes, but if there's a bunch of them as bad as the Fighter there's a good chance they'd be alright sharing the Fighter's ACFs, and it's possible that part of it might be general houserules and homebrews that can work for any of them. I'd be mostly interested in making a Fighter-focused thread, though.

  12. - Top - End - #72
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Swashbuckler, Knight, Samurai, Paladin, Ranger, Hexblade. And arguably some not-exactly-martial classes could have a use for it too, like Monk, Rogue, Scout, Marshal, Ninja, Soulknife, non-T3 meldshapers.

  13. - Top - End - #73
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    They all have their own sets of class features, their own flavours and their own requirements. If anyone wanted to make, or knows of, a thread that caters to them, it'd be great if they'd share. At the moment I'm personally only interested in Fighters.
    So, anyone else know of a thread that compiles all the Fighter ACFs and the like? Especially if it has a "mix'n'match" sort of a system?

  14. - Top - End - #74
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    They all have their own sets of class features, their own flavours and their own requirements.
    Doesn't change the fact that they could use it.
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-10-29 at 06:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    If you want to make a thread along those lines, you can. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it. It's not something I'm interested in doing, especially as my idea for the Fighter thread is already overly complicated.
    I don't understand why you seem determined to pick a fight over this

  16. - Top - End - #76
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    If you want to make a thread along those lines, you can. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it. It's not something I'm interested in doing, especially as my idea for the Fighter thread is already overly complicated.
    I don't understand why you seem determined to pick a fight over this
    I'm not picking a fight. I'm just saying, because you're talking like only Fighters need or deserve it. I'm just sticking to the topic at hand, which is ALL melee, not just Fighters.
    So yeah. "If you want to make a thread along this lines, you can. I'm sure a lot of people would appreciate it." This one isn't just about Fighters though, so I'm not sure why exactly should I be the one to get out of it.

    So, anyone else know of a thread that compiles all the Fighter ACFs and the like?
    Let me google that for you.
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-10-29 at 06:50 AM.

  17. - Top - End - #77
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    I never told you to "get out". I told you that I'll make a hypothetical thread about whatever I want, and if you want a hypothetical thread about something else you can hypothetically go make that thread. I am under no obligation to hypothetically make threads other people want that I'm not interested in when they can just do it themselves (hypothetically). I never said Fighters were the only ones that need the help, only that they're the ones I'm interested in helping right now.
    The passive-aggression, and outright aggression, is unnecessary. And what's more, a "Fighter handbook" isn't what I was talking about, so that bit of snarkiness was pointless.
    Does anyone ELSE know of anything like what I'm looking for kicking around the Homebrew section? Maybe I'll do it anyway, but there's just so many Fighter fixes already...

  18. - Top - End - #78
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    I told you that I'll make a hypothetical thread about whatever I want, and if you want a hypothetical thread about something else you can hypothetically go make that thread.
    Except I don't have to make another thread, because what I'm posting is on topic of this thread.

    I am under no obligation to hypothetically make threads other people want that I'm not interested in when they can just do it themselves (hypothetically).
    That's... good for you? Is someone forcing you to make threads you don't want?

    I never said Fighters were the only ones that need the help, only that they're the ones I'm interested in helping right now.
    And that's great, but this thread isn't only about Fighters, so I have all the right to post about other classes. For some unexplained reason you seem to not like that.

    The passive-aggression, and outright aggression, is unnecessary.
    You're imagining things.

    And what's more, a "Fighter handbook" isn't what I was talking about, so that bit of snarkiness was pointless.
    Then WHAT are you talking about? Because the handbook I googled for you did actually include Fighter ACFs...

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    My houserule doesn't have a table.
    This:
    Navar, I suggest the following change:
    Instead of +5 ft. per iterative, make it a portion of the base speed of the creature, something like 25% per iterative, rounded up.
    For a 30 feet base speed it will be 10 ft. at +1 BaB, 15 ft. at +6, 25 ft. at +11 and 30 ft. at +16.
    For a 20 feet base speed it will be 10 ft. at +6, 15 ft. at +11 and 20 ft. at +16.
    For a 40 feet base speed it will be 10 ft. at +1, 20 ft. at +6, 30 ft. at +11 and 40 ft. at +16.
    What ya think?

    That can easily be tabulated, in fact, it would be a lot easier to use if it were. That is why I called it a table.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    That being said, If one of my players came up to me a proposed using IHS to conceive I would absolutely let them do it. Melee never gets to have nice things. I'm not about to take away their right to have kids.
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  20. - Top - End - #80
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    That's not my houserule, it's a suggestion to Navar's houserule, it even says so right there. I reposted my houserule earlier.
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-10-29 at 09:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Serpentine View Post
    Does anyone ELSE know of anything like what I'm looking for kicking around the Homebrew section? Maybe I'll do it anyway, but there's just so many Fighter fixes already...
    Fighter and Wizard fixes are like standards: bet you can't make just one.

    And, unfortunately, I'm not aware of a single really good fix for Fighters; full casters are arguably made a little more tolerable by Ernir's vancian-to-psionics conversion, though. A somewhat unpolished and imperfectly balanced replacement for a lot of mundane classes can be found here.

    You're probably already aware of the main problems with most fixes, but I'll put them up here anyway []:
    • Fighter fixes often aim for Tier 1, misunderstanding the point of the tier system
    • Fighter fixes often focus on adding more or better feats, and usually involve stacking bigger numbers
    • Some Fighter fixes, in their zeal to expand options, accidentally increase Fighter's usefulness as a dip even more than its usefulness as a straight class (e.g. allowing metamagic feats as fighter bonus feats*)
    • Wizard fixes mostly nerf low- and mid-op casters more than high-op
    • Some Wizard fixes simply remove any reason to play them at all


    *I wish I was kidding.
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  22. - Top - End - #82
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    edit @^: Well, my idea, such as I have one, would be a sort of pick'n'mix compendium of little fighter fixes. Things like that houserule I liked the look of, and anything else like that, stuff that can be added to the Fighter as it now exists, and preferably enough stuff that different Fighters can have a different selection. Ideally it'd be possible to tailor it to different tiers (e.g. Tier 3 would have X features/fixes/whatever, Tier 2 would have X+Y, a character aiming for Tier 1 would have X+Y+Z). But it really depends on how many ACFs and the like there already are.
    All of which is moot, because I'm lazy and not especially interested in Fighters anyway (I tend to encourage players to look at ToB nowadays), so this most likely will never happen :I

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    Except I don't have to make another thread, because what I'm posting is on topic of this thread.
    Then we have been talking across each other, because I've been talking about how I'm thinking about starting a DIFFERENT thread if there isn't already one like it, which would incorporate the houserule mentioned in this thread, and I just wanted to know whether something like it had been done before. I seriously have no idea why you seem to have such a big problem with that, but if you've been misunderstanding me that could explain it, I suppose.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    That's... good for you? Is someone forcing you to make threads you don't want?
    You certainly appeared to be doing your darnedest to do so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    You're imagining things.
    Uh huh. I bet.

    So what was the ultimate verdict of the original houserule, again?
    Last edited by Serpentine; 2012-10-29 at 09:15 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #83
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Then we have been talking across each other, because I've been talking about how I'm thinking about starting a DIFFERENT thread if there isn't already one like it, which would incorporate the houserule mentioned in this thread, and I just wanted to know whether something like it had been done before. I seriously have no idea why you seem to have such a big problem with that, but if you've been misunderstanding me that could explain it, I suppose.
    No. I realized what you where saying, and I had no problem with that. But apparently you had a problem with me trying to continue this topic, which is melee in general.

    You certainly appeared to be doing your darnedest to do so.
    Again, you're imagining things.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    That's not my houserule, it's a suggestion to Navar's houserule, it even says so right there. I reposted my houserule earlier.
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-11-04 at 04:09 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    That being said, If one of my players came up to me a proposed using IHS to conceive I would absolutely let them do it. Melee never gets to have nice things. I'm not about to take away their right to have kids.
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    I don't particularly care what you think about Navar's houserule or my suggestion to it. If you're saying "your houserule" then talk about my houserule, not someone else's houserule.
    Last edited by Darius Kane; 2012-10-29 at 10:00 PM.

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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Quote Originally Posted by Darius Kane View Post
    I don't particularly care what you think about Navar's houserule or my suggestion to it. If you're saying "your houserule" then talk about my houserule, not someone else's houserule.
    That's nice
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    Quote Originally Posted by (Un)Inspired View Post
    That being said, If one of my players came up to me a proposed using IHS to conceive I would absolutely let them do it. Melee never gets to have nice things. I'm not about to take away their right to have kids.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Default Re: Houserule to make melee more mobile

    Sheriff of Moddingham: Thread locked for becoming a pointless snipe-fest.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-11-04 at 04:10 PM.
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