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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arranis Thelmos View Post
    She's in a box petting Shrodinger's cat.
    So she's simultaneously sweet and disturbed until you open the box?

  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    1. His/her spell reached the target, delivered the message, but the target did not respond.
    2. His/her spell didn't reach the target at all, possibly because the target is dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sending
    You contact a particular creature with which you are familiar and send a short message of twenty-five words or less to the subject. The subject recognizes you if it knows you. It can answer in like manner immediately. A creature with an Intelligence score as low as 1 can understand the sending, though the subjectís ability to react is limited as normal by its Intelligence score. Even if the sending is received, the subject is not obligated to act upon it in any manner.

    If the creature in question is not on the same plane of existence as you are, there is a 5% chance that the sending does not arrive. (Local conditions on other planes may worsen this chance considerably.)
    You can answer with "up to 25 words", that includes 0. Also, you are not obliged to act on a Sending in any manner, this includes answering.

    The rules are not clear on the details how it does not work, but if the sender knows something about a spell, the rules are usually clear. The fact they are silent here means the sender has no idea what happened to his sending once it was sent.

    Because V said she was unable to contact miss Toormuck, I automatically assumed that she didn't deliver the message at all.
    We do not know what Vaarsuvius actually meant or how the spell actually works in Rich's interpretation.
    Vaarsuvius did not get an answer - make from it what you will. Vaarsuvius chose to tell the Order she was "unable to contact" and more we do not know.
    It is very possible Serini is alive and received the Sending(s) but was unable (some form of Mind Bondage?) or simply unwilling to answer (Vaarsuvius could after all be preparing a trap or just poke if Serini is alive, it might be the smartest choice from the Halfling's point of view to leave "whoever just called me" in the dark).

    On top of all that: If you stick to the rules, you should not be able to contact someone you do not know at all. Rich stretches the rules here, imo. This is subject to interpretation... what does it mean when the rules say "You can contact someone you are familiar with"? Can you contact someone you have not met but read about? What happens with an old friend you did not see for a decade? Are you not really familiar with him anymore after all that time? How well must I know the person to be "familiar" with him or her? Can you contact the King who you have seen twenty times when he gave a speech on the balcony but you never met him? All that is unknown and up the specific GM.
    I just would not allow Vaarusivus casting a successful Sending to Serini (and neither should the Cleric of Loki been able to contact Durkon). The spells are driven by Plot-unobtainium here, imo (which is no problem, btw).
    Last edited by Winter; 2012-10-27 at 04:47 AM.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    Wow, you're optimistic.
    I don't recall Rich's exact wording when he told us a few years ago that he was already past the halfway point of the story... he might have said "I'll keep doing OotS for less time than I've spent doing it up to now", or "There's more OotS done than there is OotS to come".

    If he's talking halfway point in terms of number of comics, then 2018 is actually an optimistic forecast given Rich's average output for the last couple years.

    On the other hand, if that halfway point was in terms of time, then there's still the question of whether or not Rich had accurately forecast his (lower-than-could've-reasonably-been-expected) output for the coming years at the time of the comment...
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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Well halflings live 30 years longer than humans do or longer, so if she is dead it is not because of old age. That's more or less certain.

    Beyond that, we really have no clue until such time as the Giant decides to reveal what became of her.

    In my opinion, she will be dead or otherwise incapable of helping the OOTS, since that fits with the existing pattern of 4 out of 4 Scribblers who are no longer in this world (Lirian and Dorukan dead and soul trapped, Soon a ghost, Kraagor killed by the Snarl). However, Serini can easily provide some plot exposition from beyond the grave if the OOTS can somehow get her diary back from Xykon.
    Last edited by KillianHawkeye; 2012-10-27 at 11:18 AM.
    "Nothing you can't spell will ever work." - Will Rogers

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    Quote Originally Posted by Krellen View Post
    Remember, Evil isn't "selfish". It's Evil. "Look out for number one" is a Neutral attitude. Evil looks out for number one while crushing number two.

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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    I'm reminded about what V says at the end of the Darth V arc. How they don't know everything about their quest as they would like. I'm thinking that its possible that while they (soon, lirian, girard, kraagor, dorukan, serini) removed all knowledge of the gates from the world they may have also spread misinformation about it to those that will eventually find out about it. Serini's diary may be a perfect example of that. The same thing goes for Shojo's knowledge of the gates because that was taught to him from the original source of Soon. If Serini is alive and there is more to the gates then what the order of the stick is aware of.....it only stands to reason that if she is alive she wouldn't respond to people that don't know the whole story.
    Last edited by prism6691; 2012-10-27 at 11:50 AM.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Good theory, but the problem is: Soon would not have lied. So while I see no problem in Soon omitting certain truths (Jedi lies) he would not have lied. So whatever Shojo told the Order must be what Soon told Shojo. It must either be what Soon (who had seen his wife getting eaten by the Snarl) thought to be true or what the others told him (Giard and Serini might have deceived him).
    Given Soon was "there from the start" I find it unlikely Scribblers started with a massive untruth.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    I think you might be overstating the" Paladin truth at all costs" thing. Being lawful good is more than following a code (at least to me). I would hope than a extremely high level (possibly epic) level paladin such as Soon might see that the greater good might have been better served with proper omission or deception.
    Last edited by prism6691; 2012-10-27 at 12:27 PM.

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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by lio45 View Post
    I don't recall Rich's exact wording when he told us a few years ago that he was already past the halfway point of the story... he might have said "I'll keep doing OotS for less time than I've spent doing it up to now", or "There's more OotS done than there is OotS to come".

    If he's talking halfway point in terms of number of comics, then 2018 is actually an optimistic forecast given Rich's average output for the last couple years.

    On the other hand, if that halfway point was in terms of time, then there's still the question of whether or not Rich had accurately forecast his (lower-than-could've-reasonably-been-expected) output for the coming years at the time of the comment...
    ...It was a joke.

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Also putting my 2gp on
    Spoiler
    Show
    "Serini discovered the Snarlverse isn't toxic and went there to be with Kraagor."



    -----
    Also, while Soon may not have lied to Shojo... Shojo was an admitted master liar. He might have totally embellished everything when he retold the tale to the Oots.

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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by coineineagh View Post
    If Belkar is Serini's relative ( I know...), then it would explain why he's tagged along with the Order all this time.
    Of course they're related! Just like Thog and Therkla!
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  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    ...It was a joke.
    I doubt that. But it was a very, very, very rough estimate that has an unclear frame of reference (time? story?) and talks about a development that has not yet happened and could easily be inflated by another 30% as the story unfolds.
    All in all, I would not base anything on his comment besides "I did a lot of OotS so far and plan to do a lot more in the coming years".
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter View Post
    I doubt that. But it was a very, very, very rough estimate that has an unclear frame of reference (time? story?) and talks about a development that has not yet happened and could easily be inflated by another 30% as the story unfolds.
    All in all, I would not base anything on his comment besides "I did a lot of OotS so far and plan to do a lot more in the coming years".
    Not the Giant's "halfway over" remark - I meant my comment about OOTS ending in 2018 being "optimistic" was a joke, and thus did not need a full analysis of its accuracy.
    Last edited by ti'esar; 2012-10-28 at 04:50 AM.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Yes, you can rest assured it was crystal clear that your comment was meant as a joke... hence my reply pointing out that, when one thinks a tiny bit more about it, your "joke" comment may, in fact, be right on the money.

    Plus, it might not have "needed" an analysis, but that doesn't mean one can't be done ;)
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Ok simple explanation Serini is a polymorphed/gender belt Belkar thus explaining his awesome damage for his level and why he is not long for this world ;)
    Last edited by draigan; 2012-10-29 at 01:17 AM.

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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by prism6691 View Post
    I'm reminded about what V says at the end of the Darth V arc. How they don't know everything about their quest as they would like. I'm thinking that its possible that while they (soon, lirian, girard, kraagor, dorukan, serini) removed all knowledge of the gates from the world they may have also spread misinformation about it to those that will eventually find out about it. Serini's diary may be a perfect example of that. The same thing goes for Shojo's knowledge of the gates because that was taught to him from the original source of Soon. If Serini is alive and there is more to the gates then what the order of the stick is aware of.....it only stands to reason that if she is alive she wouldn't respond to people that don't know the whole story.
    Given that Xykon was able to find three gates so far I'd say that Serini's diary is fairly accurate in at least that regard, so it's unlikely to be part of any coverup. It's entirely possible no one else in the party knew she kept it, since they would have various non-agreeable reactions to the locations being recorded. We don't know what else is in it or, more importantly, how he acquired the diary. If she had it on her I wouldn't expect she survived the encounter.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    So if I understand this correctly, the caster of the Sending spell can't know the difference between:

    1. His/her spell reached the target, delivered the message, but the target did not respond.

    2. His/her spell didn't reach the target at all, possibly because the target is dead.

    Because V said she was unable to contact miss Toormuck, I automatically assumed that she didn't deliver the message at all.
    As others have said, we don't know even strictly by D&D rules what exactly happens if the target chooses not to respond, much less how Rich takes it. It wouldn't be unreasonable to say that the caster knows the message was delivered, but it also wouldn't be unreasonable to say they can't tell the difference between non-delivery and non-response.

    Also, for all we know Serini is (or was) within the realms of a cloister
    -like abjuration that blocked the spell, rather than being dead (such as being within the Snarl). Or she could've been dead at the time and later resurrected - that's not exactly uncommon in the life of an adventurer.

    Regardless, a non-responsive/failed Sending spell is hardly conclusive evidence as to her current state of being. After all, Haley wasn't dead when V couldn't reach her, despite spending enormous amounts of time and effort attempting to do so.

    Quote Originally Posted by prism6691 View Post
    I'm reminded about what V says at the end of the Darth V arc. How they don't know everything about their quest as they would like. I'm thinking that its possible that while they (soon, lirian, girard, kraagor, dorukan, serini) removed all knowledge of the gates from the world they may have also spread misinformation about it to those that will eventually find out about it. Serini's diary may be a perfect example of that. The same thing goes for Shojo's knowledge of the gates because that was taught to him from the original source of Soon. If Serini is alive and there is more to the gates then what the order of the stick is aware of.....it only stands to reason that if she is alive she wouldn't respond to people that don't know the whole story.
    Interesting possibility. I like, though I don't think it's very likely.

    Quote Originally Posted by prism6691 View Post
    I think you might be overstating the" Paladin truth at all costs" thing. Being lawful good is more than following a code (at least to me). I would hope than a extremely high level (possibly epic) level paladin such as Soon might see that the greater good might have been better served with proper omission or deception.
    See Good, not dumb. I doubt Soon would outright lie, but paladins aren't beyond careful misdirection (kind of like the Eragon books, where just because you're speaking in the ancient language doesn't mean you can always trust what they say, if they're sufficiently adept in its use).
    LGBTitP

    Quote Originally Posted by ti'esar View Post
    I just want to say that if this isn't the weirdest line of argument I've seen this thread take yet, it's not for lack of trying.

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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    She should be.

    The diary mistery doesn't need to be explained with "Xykon killed her".
    Heh, Xykon never ever mentioned meeting her, not even in Start of Darkness.

    As for dying for other (violent) reasons... nah. She's an epic character and just poured the most powerful monsters she could ever find into that tomb, then lost interest to it.
    And this is a low-level setting.
    Ruling out the most powerful monsters she could ever find, ruling out Team Evil, ruling out Tarquin (who doesn't know about her), ruling out the spliced magic users (who, as we know, are not connected to the plot in any way), ruling out the Snarl (which - epileptic trees aside - has been so far under control)... there's basically nothing left on that planet that could kill her (or at least, nothing we know of).

    I guess she might have died of old age, but I still think (for meta and non-meta reasons) that her being alive is much more likely.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by prism6691 View Post
    I think you might be overstating the" Paladin truth at all costs" thing. Being lawful good is more than following a code (at least to me).
    Correct. But being a Paladin is following a code. You must do not evil. You must be lawful. You do not lie. (etc)
    A Paladin has a code on top of being Lawful Good that drives Lawful Good to the max. They don't do all the things LG characters can "get away once in a while". Paladins are not allowed to lie and they usually don't - in case of Soon who really had the stick up his arse, I doubt we can assume he would lie to have it more convenient.
    Ser Ilyn, Ser Meryn, Queen Cersei, King Joffrey, The Tickler, The Hound, Ser Amory, Polliver, Raff the Sweetling, Weese, Dunsen, Nale, Ser Gregor Clegane and Chiswyck: Winter is coming!

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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    I have mixed beliefs on this one, and my conclusion relies strongly on assumption, but that's all one can ask for, so far. I think the strongest evidence that Xykon didn't kill Serini is that he didn't SAY he did. Knowing Xykon, he almost certainly would have gloated about the fact, almost as surely as Nale.
    However, I believe it quite possible she is still dead, as she had a thing for Girard. We know from here that the Familicide hit everyone who had Draketooth children, and I wouldn't be terribly surprised if that included Serini.

    Also, fridge horror moment: if Penelope and Tarquin DID have a child, then Tarquin would have died, as well as Elan and Nale! Good thing Tarquin went out of his way not to...

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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Bosco III View Post
    Also, fridge horror moment: if Penelope and Tarquin DID have a child, then Tarquin would have died, as well as Elan and Nale! Good thing Tarquin went out of his way not to...
    I don't think this is correct. Penelope didn't have (or at least nobody mentions it) the blood of the black dragon, only her child with Orrin had. Familicide stops after the first "intersection" of the bloodlines - it kills only the ABD bloodline and all "first-related" bloodlines. A child of Penelope and Tarquin would be "second-related" bloodline, and so would be Tarquin's bloodline.

    A child of Penelope and Tarquin would be still "first-related" bloodline, but Tarquin and his family (Nale, Elan, other wives) would come "after" the intersection and would belong to a "second-related" bloodline.
    Last edited by 2323mike; 2012-11-28 at 04:26 AM.
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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by 2323mike View Post
    I don't think this is correct. Penelope didn't have (or at least nobody mentions it) the blood of the black dragon, only her child with Orrin had. Familicide stops after the first "intersection" of the bloodlines - it kills only the ABD bloodline and all "first-related" bloodlines. A child of Penelope and Tarquin would be "second-related" bloodline, and so would be Tarquin's bloodline.
    Vaarsuvius disagrees, and since he cast the spell, one would hope he has a reasonable idea of what it does. He says in strip #843, referring to the people like Penelope who had borne children with a Draketooth:

    "And I have extinguished their own family lines as well! Countless parents, siblings and children, dead--down to the last cousin. I am the one who slew Tarquin's wife! And had she borne him a child, I would have slain it as well!".

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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Quote Originally Posted by factotum View Post
    Vaarsuvius disagrees, and since he cast the spell, one would hope he has a reasonable idea of what it does. He says in strip #843, referring to the people like Penelope who had borne children with a Draketooth:

    "And I have extinguished their own family lines as well! Countless parents, siblings and children, dead--down to the last cousin. I am the one who slew Tarquin's wife! And had she borne him a child, I would have slain it as well!".
    Edit: Now I see I made a mistake in my previous post, thanks for pointing it out.
    Last edited by 2323mike; 2012-11-28 at 04:24 AM.
    All thanks to half-halfling for the avatar.

    There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.

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    Default Re: Is Serini still alive?

    Here's the Giant's description of exactly what the spell does. http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...postcount=1034
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