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    Default undead and mental ability damage

    when you hit a living creature's mental stats to 0, they go unconscious. I don't think that's true of undead, so, what happens if you get an undead's int/wis/cha to 0?
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Assuming it has the relevant ability score (not mindless vs int damage), it would be rendered helpless just the same as any other creature. Nothing in the undead type description states that they are immune to being made helpless. They would become deanimated for at let 24 hours for the ability damage to heal. It should heal on ours own at normal rate, since again, nothing written stops it (that I know of).

    Even if they are, you still can't CDG them, due to their immunity to critical hits.
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    huh. looks like that's the case. unconscious describes the character as being helpless, so that answers that. thanks.
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Assuming it has the relevant ability score (not mindless vs int damage), it would be rendered helpless just the same as any other creature. Nothing in the undead type description states that they are immune to being made helpless. They would become deanimated for at let 24 hours for the ability damage to heal. It should heal on ours own at normal rate, since again, nothing written stops it (that I know of).
    An undead "cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed", which I believe includes healing from ability damage. If you can get non-mind-affecting Cha/Wis damage, bam, that's one perma-frozen zombie/skeleton/what-have-you.
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    An undead "cannot heal damage on its own if it has no Intelligence score, although it can be healed", which I believe includes healing from ability damage. If you can get non-mind-affecting Cha/Wis damage, bam, that's one perma-frozen zombie/skeleton/what-have-you.
    Stuff the body in your bag of holding, and now there's really no hope for the poor guy to be resurrected (short of Wish/Miracle-level magic, of course). One notch below soul-destruction.
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Int 0 and no intelligence aren't the same thing. The undead in question will regain one point of int in one day's time. Intelligent undead -do- heal both ability damage and hp damage at the normal rate.
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    Int 0 and no intelligence aren't the same thing. The undead in question will regain one point of int in one day's time. Intelligent undead -do- heal both ability damage and hp damage at the normal rate.
    Uhhhhh. Zombies (&c) literally have no intelligence score. Therefore, it's impossible for it to regain a point of Int that it never had to start with, and it's also impossible for it to regain any other ability score damage on its own. As previously stated, then, Wis or Cha damage landed on a mindless undead stays forever, and acts like drain.

    Of course, if you're targeting a non-mindless undead, that doesn't work, which is why my examples were mindless.
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Whoops, missed the bit about you actually targetting mindless undead with it.

    But mindless undead are such pushovers, why bother?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Constitution

    Any living creature has at least 1 point of Constitution. A creature with no Constitution has no body or no metabolism. It is immune to any effect that requires a Fortitude save unless the effect works on objects or is harmless. The creature is also immune to ability damage, ability drain, and energy drain, and automatically fails Constitution checks. A creature with no Constitution cannot tire and thus can run indefinitely without tiring (unless the creature’s description says it cannot run).
    note that undead are normally immune to all ability damage and drain, and the immunity conferred by the undead type against damage to physical ability scores is redundant (and would only come into play in the ... rather unusual, case that it is granted a constitution score without removing the undead type; this is not a thing that happens, to my knowledge).
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    note that undead are normally immune to all ability damage and drain, and the immunity conferred by the undead type against damage to physical ability scores is redundant (and would only come into play in the ... rather unusual, case that it is granted a constitution score without removing the undead type; this is not a thing that happens, to my knowledge).
    One could argue that undead being specifically immune to only physical ability damage trumps con - being generally immune to all ability damage.

    That'd just be conjecture though, since the two don't conflict directly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
    Quote Originally Posted by LTwerewolf View Post
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    note that undead are normally immune to all ability damage and drain, and the immunity conferred by the undead type against damage to physical ability scores is redundant (and would only come into play in the ... rather unusual, case that it is granted a constitution score without removing the undead type; this is not a thing that happens, to my knowledge).
    wild shape grants a con score but does not change type (being keyed off alternate form). since you don't lose the undead type, your physical abilities still can't be hurt.

    wasn't the "immune to physical ability damage only" changed in the update to 3.5? and they just forgot to change it under the nonabilities section?
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    But mindless undead are such pushovers, why bother?
    I dunno, it was just a random thought. Of course, if you have non-mind-affecting Wis/Cha damage, it's also great for all kinds of other things; the special interaction with mindless undead is just an amusing bonus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    wasn't the "immune to physical ability damage only" changed in the update to 3.5? and they just forgot to change it under the nonabilities section?
    If so, that would be a helpful resolution to the conflict of RAW. I'm not certain which should control otherwise, either RAW-wise or by RACSD.
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    I dunno, it was just a random thought. Of course, if you have non-mind-affecting Wis/Cha damage, it's also great for all kinds of other things; the special interaction with mindless undead is just an amusing bonus.



    If so, that would be a helpful resolution to the conflict of RAW. I'm not certain which should control otherwise, either RAW-wise or by RACSD.
    what other sources of non mind-affecting wis/cha damage exist besides maiming strike via penetrating strike?
    Last edited by Venger; 2012-10-26 at 11:59 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Venger View Post
    what other sources of non mind-affecting wis/cha damage exist besides maiming strike via penetrating strike?
    I have no idea. I do know it's not very common, though.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by sreservoir View Post
    note that undead are normally immune to all ability damage and drain, and the immunity conferred by the undead type against damage to physical ability scores is redundant (and would only come into play in the ... rather unusual, case that it is granted a constitution score without removing the undead type; this is not a thing that happens, to my knowledge).
    There's also Spark of Life in, I believe, spell compendium. I'm far too lazy to read the actual rules to it, but in general it removes many undead immunities.

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    Default Re: undead and mental ability damage

    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    There's also Spark of Life in, I believe, spell compendium. I'm far too lazy to read the actual rules to it, but in general it removes many undead immunities.
    true, but it neither grants a con score nor removes the undead type. it does render str and dex vulnerable to damage though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glimbur View Post
    There's also Spark of Life in, I believe, spell compendium. I'm far too lazy to read the actual rules to it, but in general it removes many undead immunities.
    Yes it's in the SC as a cleric3/druid4 spell. It's also in Libris Mortis as a cleric7/druid8 spell. It basically strips away the physical immunities of undead. FWIW there's a feat in LM, Requiem, that allows bardic music to affect undead. Being immune to mind influencing effects makes them immune to most BM effects normally.

    Edit: SoL makes undead subject to damage from critical hits, nonlethal damage, ability drain, energy drain, fatigue, exhaustion, and damage to physical ability scores. They still lack a con score so they are not subject to con damage.
    Last edited by nyjastul69; 2012-10-27 at 09:57 AM.
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