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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    I was trying to advance an Assassin Vine for an adventure I'm working on- and I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

    I started with the basic Assassin Vine and doubled its HD, this increases its size from Large to Huge and I assume does the following:
    1) Increases its reach to 15 (or 30 with the tentacle?)
    2) Increases its slam damage (though the only size dependent table for that I've found is under Zombie?)
    3) Increases its constrict damage (follows logically from the slam clause doesn't it?)

    I also dunno if I got it right with regards to its attack or full attack. It has a BAB of +6, so doesn't that mean it gets an iterative attack at +1 BAB? I looked at the 8 HD shambling mound for comparison, but it has two slam attacks both at its full BAB.

    Also, does the 8th hit dice give the creature an ability score boost? I wanted to increase its Wisdom to raise the DC of its entangle ability.
    Long time reader and lurker turned poster

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    Orc in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    I was trying to advance an Assassin Vine for an adventure I'm working on- and I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

    I started with the basic Assassin Vine and doubled its HD, this increases its size from Large to Huge and I assume does the following:
    1) Increases its reach to 15 (or 30 with the tentacle?)
    2) Increases its slam damage (though the only size dependent table for that I've found is under Zombie?)
    3) Increases its constrict damage (follows logically from the slam clause doesn't it?)

    I also dunno if I got it right with regards to its attack or full attack. It has a BAB of +6, so doesn't that mean it gets an iterative attack at +1 BAB? I looked at the 8 HD shambling mound for comparison, but it has two slam attacks both at its full BAB.

    Also, does the 8th hit dice give the creature an ability score boost? I wanted to increase its Wisdom to raise the DC of its entangle ability.
    iterative attacks are with weapons only, not natural attacks, hence the discrepancy.

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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    I was trying to advance an Assassin Vine for an adventure I'm working on- and I'm wondering if I'm missing something.

    I started with the basic Assassin Vine and doubled its HD, this increases its size from Large to Huge and I assume does the following:
    1) Increases its reach to 15 (or 30 with the tentacle?)
    2) Increases its slam damage (though the only size dependent table for that I've found is under Zombie?)
    3) Increases its constrict damage (follows logically from the slam clause doesn't it?)
    Improving Monsters will help you a great deal here. In particular, the size jump at 5 HD gives it +8 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Con, +3 Natural Armor, and -1 attack/AC, and its slam and constrict die sizes go up from 1d6 to 1d8.

    I also dunno if I got it right with regards to its attack or full attack. It has a BAB of +6, so doesn't that mean it gets an iterative attack at +1 BAB? I looked at the 8 HD shambling mound for comparison, but it has two slam attacks both at its full BAB.
    As Ravenica mentioned, natural attacks never get iteratives.

    Also, does the 8th hit dice give the creature an ability score boost? I wanted to increase its Wisdom to raise the DC of its entangle ability.
    Yep. Monsters gain ability score increases by hit die just like characters do, with the exception that their baseline hit dice don't give them any further adjustments (in other words, a 4 HD creature already has its ability score increase).
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" Use of gray may indicate nitpicking Green is sincerity

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    So it looks like:

    Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine
    HD 8d8+70 (70 hp)
    AC 16 (+9 Natural -1 Dex -2 Size)
    BAB/Grapple +6/+23
    Slam +13 (6 BAB 9 Str -2 Size) for 1d8+13 (Str*1.5)
    Constrict 1d8+13

    Str 28 Con 20 Dex 8 Int 0 Wis 14 Cha 9

    It's a CR... 7? Seems nasty doesn't it? I could drop the Fiendish template, but that's not even helping its crazy attack and damage.

    If I used something like that what level would you expect my party to be?
    Long time reader and lurker turned poster

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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    It's a CR... 7? Seems nasty doesn't it? I could drop the Fiendish template, but that's not even helping its crazy attack and damage.

    If I used something like that what level would you expect my party to be?
    Compare to chimeras, aboleths, chuuls, chaos beasts, or dire bears, to name a few CR 7 monsters. I think it fits in well enough.
    Last edited by TuggyNE; 2012-10-27 at 05:48 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" Use of gray may indicate nitpicking Green is sincerity

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    And if I removed the Fiendish template? Should I feel bad subjecting a 5th level party to that?
    Long time reader and lurker turned poster

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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    The template gives it DR with the amount of HD it has. Try thinking of how the PC's would fight this thing. Level 5 would make this quite the impressive encounter. If the party is very well optimized then it shouldn't be very hard to have them fight it with ease. Note that if this monster is able to grapple a party member then its game over for them unless they have a great grapple mod or have some other means of escaping. But if the party is able to see it and shoot it from far away then the vine will have no means to fight them.

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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnera View Post
    The template gives it DR with the amount of HD it has. Try thinking of how the PC's would fight this thing. Level 5 would make this quite the impressive encounter. If the party is very well optimized then it shouldn't be very hard to have them fight it with ease. Note that if this monster is able to grapple a party member then its game over for them unless they have a great grapple mod or have some other means of escaping. But if the party is able to see it and shoot it from far away then the vine will have no means to fight them.
    DR 5/magic at level 7 is actually a little pathetic, and as a CR 5 it would have no DR. The energy resistances/immunity are a little annoying, but not crippling.

    The grapple modifier is fairly high, which makes it a bit unpleasantly binary, but level 7 is the earliest freedom of movement comes online, so with sufficient preparation even a melee specialist with a lousy grapple mod could manage this. (Or, of course, anybody with at least 30' attacks.)
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" Use of gray may indicate nitpicking Green is sincerity

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    Didn't Ur-Priest's Monster Guide cover stuff like this?
    Spoiler
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    Like one, that on a lonesome road
    Doth walk in fear and dread,
    And having once turned round walks on,
    And turns no more his head;
    Because he knows, a frightful fiend
    Doth close behind him tread.
    The Rime of the Ancient Mariner -- Samuel Coleridge Taylor

    Spoiler
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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    DR 5/magic at level 7 is actually a little pathetic, and as a CR 5 it would have no DR. The energy resistances/immunity are a little annoying, but not crippling.

    The grapple modifier is fairly high, which makes it a bit unpleasantly binary, but level 7 is the earliest freedom of movement comes online, so with sufficient preparation even a melee specialist with a lousy grapple mod could manage this. (Or, of course, anybody with at least 30' attacks.)
    CR? I thought that the fiendish template based its extras on HD not CR. Also Vartan mentioned subjecting a 5th level party to it. So magic weapons are indeed online by then, thus making DR a kinda non issue. However it would also have SR13, assuming a 5wiz/sorc that's a roll of 8 on a D20 so that's not really troubling either.

    The worst that could happen is if it grapples two or so party members and kills them. Ill bet that the ranged member of the group would love a battle like this. Just staying at range and shooting the vine, happy face and all.

    Such an encounter is probably going to fall a few ways.
    1: Front line gets grappled and the party heal him through the damage and back off to shoot it at range.
    2: The party spots it and figures out what it is, then they shoot it at range.
    3: The vine grapples many of the party members as they fight in melee.
    4: Other

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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by Magnera View Post
    CR? I thought that the fiendish template based its extras on HD not CR. Also Vartan mentioned subjecting a 5th level party to it. So magic weapons are indeed online by then, thus making DR a kinda non issue. However it would also have SR13, assuming a 5wiz/sorc that's a roll of 8 on a D20 so that's not really troubling either.
    My point was that the CR 5 version would lack the Fiendish template, or that the version without Fiendish, being CR 5, would be more suitable for a level 5 party. An 8 HD assassin vine is CR 5 on its own, and Fiendish with 8 HD adds +2 CR.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" Use of gray may indicate nitpicking Green is sincerity

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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    Quote Originally Posted by vartan View Post
    So it looks like:

    Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine
    HD 8d8+70 (70 hp)
    AC 16 (+9 Natural -1 Dex -2 Size)
    BAB/Grapple +6/+23
    Slam +13 (6 BAB 9 Str -2 Size) for 1d8+13 (Str*1.5)
    Constrict 1d8+13

    Str 28 Con 20 Dex 8 Int 0 Wis 14 Cha 9
    Really, really close. It should have 76hp (8d8+40) and Intelligence 3, granting it eleven skill points (with no class skills, as far as I'm aware) and three feats.

    Here's a rough SRD-style statblock, for reference.
    Spoiler
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    Advanced Fiendish Assassin Vine
    Size/Type: Huge Plant
    Hit Dice: 8d8+30 (76 hp)
    Initiative: -1
    Speed: 5ft (1 square)
    Armor Class: 13 (-2 size, -1 Dex, +9 natural), touch 7, flat-footed 7
    BAB/Grapple: +6/+23
    Attack: Slam +13 melee (1d8+13)
    Full Attack: Slam +13 melee (1d8+13)
    Space/Reach: 15ft/15ft (30ft with vine)
    S. Attacks: Constrict 1d8+13, entangle, improved grab, smite good
    S. Qualities: Blindsight 30ft, camouflage, damage reduction 5/magic, immunity to electricity, low-light vision, plant traits, resistance to cold 10 and fire 10, spell resistance 13
    Saves: Fort +11, Ref +1, Will +4
    Abilities: Str 28, Dex 8, Con 20, Int 3, Wis 14, Cha 9
    Skills: 11 unassigned skill points, no class skills
    Feats: 3 unassigned feats
    Environment: Any evil aligned plane
    Organization: Solitary or patch (2-4)
    CR: 7
    Treasure: 1/10th coins; 50% goods; 50% items
    Alignment: Always evil (any)


    Constrict (Ex):
    An assassin vine deals 1d8+13 points of damage with a successful grapple check.


    Entangle (Su):
    An assassin vine can animate plants within 30ft of itself as a Free action (Reflex DC 14 partial).

    The effect lasts until the vine dies or decides to end it (also a Free action). The save DC is Wisdom based. The ability is otherwise similar to entangle (caster level 4th).


    Improved Grab (Ex):
    To use this ability, an assassin vine must hit with its slam attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a Free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and can constrict.


    Smite Good (Su):
    Once per day the assassin vine can make a normal melee attack to deal 8 points of extra damage against a Good foe.


    Blindsight (Ex):
    Assassin vines have no visual organs but can ascertain all foes within 30ft using sound, scent, and vibration.


    Camouflage (Ex):
    Since an assassin vine looks like a normal plant when at rest, it takes a DC 20 Spot check to notice it before it attacks.

    Anyone with ranks in Survival or Knowledge (Nature) can use one of those skills instead of Spot to notice the plant. Dwarves can use stonecunning to notice the subterranean version.


    Also, the Fiendish template is supposed to add darkvision 60ft, but the assassin vine is normally totally blind. I'm not totally sure which overrides the other, but I think that, by RaW, darkvision wins out. The assassin vine would have darkvision out to 60ft and blindsight out to 30ft, but not regular sight. I think. I took to the path of caution and didn't include it, however.
    Are any of my tables still broken?



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  13. - Top - End - #13
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Huge Fiendish Assassin Vine

    I think I'll drop the fiendish template and rule that when it grapples it exercises its right to not pull the PC into its square or whatever (per improved grab it would take a -20 to its checks in that case but still threaten all its squares and such). So it'll be more likely to slam everyone than get a hold and maintain it.
    Long time reader and lurker turned poster

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