Why didn't Tarquin let Nale be figurehead?

[Gift Jeraff]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html

This always puzzled me. Nale wanted to be crowned instead of the Empress, so why didn't Tarquin just let him be the patsy of the year?

There are a lot of possible reasons (he wanted him to leave so he'd inevitably meet his long lost brother, he knew too much about their methods for it to work properly, etc.), but I'm curious to see what other people think.

[Sunken Valley]

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0725.html

This always puzzled me. Nale wanted to be crowned instead of the Empress, so why didn't Tarquin just let him be the patsy of the year?

There are a lot of possible reasons (he wanted him to leave so he'd inevitably meet his long lost brother, he knew too much about their methods for it to work properly, etc.), but I'm curious to see what other people think.

Nale knew Tarquin's scheme. He knew he'd eventually get kicked off the throne. He didn't want the "crown". He wanted the whole thing.

[Cizak]

That was just a cover story Tarquin told Elan before revealing the truth. It never happened. Nale revolted against Tarquin because he thinks Tarquin should use his power to conquer more than he has already, while Tarquin doesn't think that's realistic.

[Winter]

Because Nale is a loose cannon that would endanger Tarquin's entire system by being too blunt and stupid in ruling. Also with Nale on the top, he could not have gotten replaced the ruler after a year or five.

Nale was about to make the very same mistake Tarquin made with his first empire, so he could not let get Nale what he wanted. How Nale reacts to something like that will not come as surprise to anyone here.

[Mike Havran]

Nale thought the Empires are powerful enough already and can gain dominion of the entire continent through brute force. He thought the time has come to throw away the old man's stupid and boring old scheme, come out of the shadows and sit on the golden throne.

In response, daddy kicked his ass.

[Yendor]

Because Nale is a loose cannon that would endanger Tarquin's entire system by being too blunt and stupid in ruling. Also with Nale on the top, he could not have gotten replaced the ruler after a year or five.

And people will probably get suspicious if one of the Empire leaders looks just like Tarquin.

[Math_Mage]

That was just a cover story Tarquin told Elan before revealing the truth. It never happened. Nale revolted against Tarquin because he thinks Tarquin should use his power to conquer more than he has already, while Tarquin doesn't think that's realistic.

Those stories are actually consistent with Nale wanting to take the throne.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Those stories are actually consistent with Nale wanting to take the throne.

Yes, but Nale's intentions conflict with Tarquin's plans in ways that Elan didn't know about at the time. Chiefly, Tarquin's scheme requires the puppets to be periodically overthrown. Obviously Nale wouldn't accept that (Tarquin might not have been too thrilled about visiting that fate on his own son either).

[ti'esar]

What I've been wondering about is less why Tarquin wouldn't let Nale be figurehead back then than it is why he's insisting on Nale being figurehead of the LG now. He doesn't seem to actually need Nale for anything. He's strongly implied that Malack can kill him once the mission is over. So why is he insisting on the pretense that Nale is still running the show?

[theNater]

What I've been wondering about is less why Tarquin wouldn't let Nale be figurehead back then than it is why he's insisting on Nale being figurehead of the LG now. He doesn't seem to actually need Nale for anything. He's strongly implied that Malack can kill him once the mission is over. So why is he insisting on the pretense that Nale is still running the show?

Nale knows and has worked with Xykon, who holds the ritual to control the gates. Tarquin needs Nale if he is to get that ritual.

[Math_Mage]

What I've been wondering about is less why Tarquin wouldn't let Nale be figurehead back then than it is why he's insisting on Nale being figurehead of the LG now. He doesn't seem to actually need Nale for anything. He's strongly implied that Malack can kill him once the mission is over. So why is he insisting on the pretense that Nale is still running the show?

1. Information control is a habit. Delaying the revelation of his identity certainly helped them outfight the Order.
2. Perhaps Tarquin intends to 'accidentally' let Nale slip through his fingers.

[Malanthyus]

I know it's a bit hard to realize given Tarquin's personality, life choices, etc, but the man Honestly loves his family.

If you don't think that's possible, then answer me why it is that his 'first' ex wife is still alive.

The reason he didn't want nale to take the throne as a patsy or as actual ruler was basically the same, he didn't want his son to die to a stupid choice.

As far as letting Nale be the "figurehead" of this new linear guild, this makes Nale more controlable in Tarquins eyes, and puts him in less danger than trying to fight him every step of the journey after the OOTS. It's a repeat of his classic strategy of a minimum of effort for maximum gain.

From Tarquins perspective, he's still completely in control of the situation, and is more than able to have his sons and appease his longtime friend at the same time. Even if he's forced to allow his friend to kill his son, he believes it will be simple enough to have Nale resurrected, if not by Malak, then by another cleric.

Nale would except almost any ressurection, because as spiteful as he might be, he'd still value another chance at revenge more than dissing his old man.

Even better, if Malak discovers this and confronts Tarquin with it, Tarquin will point out that he allowed him to repay his sons murderous act upon him, but simply made the choice to ressurect him that Malak declined.

As per usual, the way Tarquin sees it, whatever happens, it's a win situation for him.

[Shred-Bot]

What I've been wondering about is less why Tarquin wouldn't let Nale be figurehead back then than it is why he's insisting on Nale being figurehead of the LG now. He doesn't seem to actually need Nale for anything. He's strongly implied that Malack can kill him once the mission is over. So why is he insisting on the pretense that Nale is still running the show?

Letting Nale be figurehead ruler of the Empire of Blood would blow his whole multi-decade, continent-ruling scheme. Letting him be the figurehead of the LG now has a much smaller downside, if any. Maybe he thought it would make the Order overconfident to see Nale in charge?

Though we'll see if Nale still gets to lead after their defeat in Roy's ambush.

Unrelated: I wonder what the name of Tarquin and Malack's adventuring group is/was? I presume they'll keep the theme the same, maybe something like Vector Squad? (Their plots certainly have both direction and magnitude!)

[ChowGuy]

It's not a case of not letting Nale be the figurehead ruler, as Nale not wanting to be. The Empress may think she's in charge, and so might everyone else, but she won't make a move without consulting and deferring to Tarquin first. Nale is too full of himself to go along with that, and maintaining the deception that he was in charge would require such a large conspiracy among the top officials that Tarquin's role as true power (and target) could not be concealed.

In the LG on the other hand, Nale doesn't yet realize that he is only the figurehead leader, and keeping him in the dark only requires the cooperation of a handful of people (mainly Malack). When the time comes, he will be betrayed (and overthrown by "the enemy"), just like all of Tarquin's other puppets.

[Kish]

What I've been wondering about is less why Tarquin wouldn't let Nale be figurehead back then than it is why he's insisting on Nale being figurehead of the LG now. He doesn't seem to actually need Nale for anything. He's strongly implied that Malack can kill him once the mission is over. So why is he insisting on the pretense that Nale is still running the show?

If Nale is the leader, Tarquin can slip out the back door and have his dramatic showdown with Elan later. Years of debauchery later, hopefully.

If Tarquin is the leader of a group hunting Elan now, then this is the Dramatic Confrontation between Main Hero* and Main Villain*. And those, Tarquin knows, always end in the death of Main Villain.

*He is, of course, in error in his belief that Elan is one of those rather than Roy, and in error in his belief that he is the other instead of Xykon. But that's what he believes.

[Bogardan_Mage]

*He is, of course, in error in his belief that Elan is one of those rather than Roy, and in error in his belief that he is the other instead of Xykon. But that's what he believes.

Elan and Tarquin are the central characters of their own story. The fact that the comic as a whole is about Roy and Xykon doesn't change that.

[dtilque]

There's one other, and I think, most important reason for letting Nale lead the fight against the OotS: testing.

Just as Tarquin was testing Elan in the fight on top of the pyramid (see here for Malack's complaint about it), so is he also testing Nale's leadership ability by letting him run the show. Tarquin will eventually have to hand his empire off to someone and he wants it to be someone who can run it well. Hence the test to see if Nale has learned anything about being boss.

BTW, Tarquin doesn't really believe all that stuff he told Elan about being taken down by a hero, even if it is Elan. While he will concede that it's possible, he doesn't really think anyone has what it takes to do it.

[Bogardan_Mage]

BTW, Tarquin doesn't really believe all that stuff he told Elan about being taken down by a hero, even if it is Elan. While he will concede that it's possible, he doesn't really think anyone has what it takes to do it.

I don't buy it, he's far too Genre Savvy for that. Among other things, he knows that villains who believe themselves to be unbeatable are always taken down by heroes. If anything, it's the living in luxury until a natural death that he concedes as a possibility but doesn't think is likely.

[veti]

Elan and Tarquin are the central characters of their own story. The fact that the comic as a whole is about Roy and Xykon doesn't change that.

Yeees... but Tarquin does know that he's not the main villain of Elan's current quest. (Here.) Unless, of course, he thinks that he really is the Big Bad, and Xykon is merely his pawn - but that seems an implausible level of delusion even for him.

(Although come to think of it - it is possible that he and Xykon know each other, and have some sort of deal going. There are gaps in Xykon's record, during which he could have visited the Western Continent...)

And Nale has wilfully defined himself as "not a protagonist". Which suggests that Nale - alone, as far as we know - isn't the main player even in his own story.

[ti'esar]

I think dtilque is probably right that Tarquin is basically testing Nale. That might also relate to why he's left whether he'll side with Malack or Nale ambiguous, come to think of it.

Yeees... but Tarquin does know that he's not the main villain of Elan's current quest. (Here.) Unless, of course, he thinks that he really is the Big Bad, and Xykon is merely his pawn - but that seems an implausible level of delusion even for him.

Not so much a pawn as a starter villain. Although he may have changed his opinion some now that he's thrown his hat into the contest for the Gates, I think at the time he made that speech, he saw the whole Xykon thing as basically a way for Elan and "his" party to level up. From Tarquin's perspective, he is the Final Boss and Xykon is the equivalent of someone like Kubota.

And Nale has wilfully defined himself as "not a protagonist". Which suggests that Nale - alone, as far as we know - isn't the main player even in his own story.

Nale could believe he is the main antagonist, although the past evidence suggests otherwise.

[dtilque]

I don't buy it, he's far too Genre Savvy for that. Among other things, he knows that villains who believe themselves to be unbeatable are always taken down by heroes. If anything, it's the living in luxury until a natural death that he concedes as a possibility but doesn't think is likely.

But he's using his genre savviness to avoid the standard-issue hero.

Note that they do have heroes come by regularly. Every couple years or so, one manages to take down the current figurehead monarch and become the new one. The name of the empire changes, but nothing essential does. Tarquin and his partner are still in real power.

In order for Tarquin to lose, there has to be a hero who not only takes out the figurehead, but is also smart enough to see through Tarquin's scheme and is strong enough to defeat two high-level characters (Tarquin and his current partner). Such heroes are rare to nonexistent. Ian has been looking for one for about three years now. He probably thinks he's finally found one in Roy, but Roy's not that strong yet,

So Tarquin may feel justified in thinking that one will never come along. Or more likely, he's engaged in a deliberate double think, much like Elan did about Nale's death.

I think dtilque is probably right that Tarquin is basically testing Nale.

This is supported by a remark by Tarquin to Nale in panel 5 of OotS0822:

If anything, I look forward to seeing how you handle this operation

[Caivs]

From Tarquins perspective, he's still completely in control of the situation, and is more than able to have his sons and appease his longtime friend at the same time. Even if he's forced to allow his friend to kill his son, he believes it will be simple enough to have Nale resurrected, if not by Malak, then by another cleric.

Nale would except almost any ressurection, because as spiteful as he might be, he'd still value another chance at revenge more than dissing his old man.

Even better, if Malak discovers this and confronts Tarquin with it, Tarquin will point out that he allowed him to repay his sons murderous act upon him, but simply made the choice to ressurect him that Malak declined.

Heh, I actually like that idea and the theorical consequences, but I am not sure it could happen...Tarquin probably knows this would be the absolute last straw Malack could take, and he can't afford to lose one of his most valuable allies like that.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Note that they do have heroes come by regularly. Every couple years or so, one manages to take down the current figurehead monarch and become the new one. The name of the empire changes, but nothing essential does. Tarquin and his partner are still in real power.

No, the usurpers are not random heroes. They're specifically sponsored by Tarquin and his team. Do you honestly believe he'd leave it to chance?

I think you've just arbitrarily decided Tarquin believes himself unbeatable and dismiss anything that contradicts this as Tarquin lying (even when it's obviously true). How can I argue that Tarquin believes what he outright says that he believes repeatedly when you just say "Oh no, he was clearly lying for no apparent reason".

[Shred-Bot]

No, the usurpers are not random heroes. They're specifically sponsored by Tarquin and his team. Do you honestly believe he'd leave it to chance?

And anyone competent enough to overthrow an empire isn't likely to keep the same general and high priest from the previous regime. The success of the scheme depends entirely on finding weak (Lord Tyrinar the Bloody) or stupid (the current Empress) enough to sit on the throne but not make any important decisions or put up resistance when it is time for them to go.

[Snails]

I do not believe Tarquin's gambit is about directly vexing random heroes that challenge the tyrant -- like all tyrants, by dramatic convention, he is also blind to the real threat until it is too late.

IMO Tarquin's insight is that rulers in this continent are very skilled at forming temporary ad hoc alliances to knock down the one big obvious threat. His game is about having running three card monte of threats -- the rulers on this continent think they are good at picking the right card (previous history might say they are right about that), when really picking any card at all is the sucker's play.

So true heroes may still be a threat to some degree, but such heroes cannot find any outside support. In fact, looking for outside support is likely to a fatal error because those offering will include factions with strings pulled by Tarquin.

[dtilque]

No, the usurpers are not random heroes. They're specifically sponsored by Tarquin and his team. Do you honestly believe he'd leave it to chance?

I think you've just arbitrarily decided Tarquin believes himself unbeatable and dismiss anything that contradicts this as Tarquin lying (even when it's obviously true). How can I argue that Tarquin believes what he outright says that he believes repeatedly when you just say "Oh no, he was clearly lying for no apparent reason".

Huh? I didn't say he was lying. Nor do I think he was lying.

What I did say was that he was probably engaged in double think. Obviously I should have expanded on what exactly I mean by that.

Double think occurs when one believes in two mutually contradictory ideas at once. In this case, it's caused by being Genre Savvy. The trope in question is about an Evil Empire and its Overlord being taken down by a hero, or more usually, a small plucky¹ band of them. The double thiink comes in about whether anyone expects the Evil Empire to be vulnerable to them. As Tarquin points out, the trope is that no one (and that includes the EO) thinks they are. Yet the trope also says that they inevitably are.

So Tarquin, being the uber-genre-savvy person he is, has to think both these at the same time. What I was saying was that deep, down inside, Tarquin truly believes that he will not be taken out by a hero. He also believes that he will, but that's at a shallower level. So he wasn't lying to Elan about it, just not expressing his ultimate deep thoughts.

Now this is just my guess as to his true thoughts on it. I base it mainly on the fact that he seems to be viewing Nale as a potential successor. Thus the test of Nale's leadership abilities. If Tarquin expects to be taken out, he wouldn't feel the need for grooming a successor.


And as far as Tarquin accepting random heroes as a new figurehead, it depends on the specific attributes of the hero. Based on the trope discussed above, he can expect that his figurehead will be deposed from time to time. He may even return from the current adventure to find the Empress of Blood to be voted off the island, so to speak.

He will then evaluate the usurper and judge whether they are suitable to be a figurehead. He may have to call in two of the other members of his party to act as advisors to this usurper, since the usurper is likely not to want him and Malack. But they switch around from time to time anyway. Of course, the usurper could be unsuitable (too smart or strong), so then he will go with a selected chump and usurp the usurper.



¹ Pluckiness is an absolute requirement here. Unplucky adventurers never get to depose Evil Overlords. For D&D, I imagine a +4 Ring of Pluckiness should do the trick for deposing even the Evilest and Over-est lords.

[Bogardan_Mage]

Huh? I didn't say he was lying. Nor do I think he was lying.

What I did say was that he was probably engaged in double think. Obviously I should have expanded on what exactly I mean by that.

Double think occurs when one believes in two mutually contradictory ideas at once. In this case, it's caused by being Genre Savvy. The trope in question is about an Evil Empire and its Overlord being taken down by a hero, or more usually, a small plucky¹ band of them. The double thiink comes in about whether anyone expects the Evil Empire to be vulnerable to them. As Tarquin points out, the trope is that no one (and that includes the EO) thinks they are. Yet the trope also says that they inevitably are.

So Tarquin, being the uber-genre-savvy person he is, has to think both these at the same time. What I was saying was that deep, down inside, Tarquin truly believes that he will not be taken out by a hero. He also believes that he will, but that's at a shallower level. So he wasn't lying to Elan about it, just not expressing his ultimate deep thoughts.

Now this is just my guess as to his true thoughts on it. I base it mainly on the fact that he seems to be viewing Nale as a potential successor. Thus the test of Nale's leadership abilities. If Tarquin expects to be taken out, he wouldn't feel the need for grooming a successor.

On the contrary, expecting to be taken out is exactly when the need for a heir will arise. Especially if Tarquin expects to be taken out in the manner he discusses with Elan; simply killing Tarquin won't unravel his schemes. If he is testing Nale as his successor, it will be to assist Malack and the others to continue the exact same plan. So in a sense you're right, in that he doesn't expect his empire to be defeated, but that's because he expects to be defeated by Elan, not because he expects not to be.

And as far as Tarquin accepting random heroes as a new figurehead, it depends on the specific attributes of the hero. Based on the trope discussed above, he can expect that his figurehead will be deposed from time to time. He may even return from the current adventure to find the Empress of Blood to be voted off the island, so to speak.

He will then evaluate the usurper and judge whether they are suitable to be a figurehead. He may have to call in two of the other members of his party to act as advisors to this usurper, since the usurper is likely not to want him and Malack. But they switch around from time to time anyway. Of course, the usurper could be unsuitable (too smart or strong), so then he will go with a selected chump and usurp the usurper.

This is not attested anywhere, none of Tarquin's puppets that we've seen are the least bit heroic, and Tarquin has meticulously planned so much of his scheme that it beggars belief that he'd allow some random hero to play the part of usurper rather than a specifically chosen known quantity.

[Math_Mage]

This is not attested anywhere, none of Tarquin's puppets that we've seen are the least bit heroic, and Tarquin has meticulously planned so much of his scheme that it beggars belief that he'd allow some random hero to play the part of usurper rather than a specifically chosen known quantity.

Whatever resistance Zora's city comes up with will have a leader. That leader might as well be known by the moniker 'random hero'. They'll ally themselves with the Empire of Sweat as described in the comic, and Tarquin is back in control. What's the problem?

[Bogardan_Mage]

Whatever resistance Zora's city comes up with will have a leader. That leader might as well be known by the moniker 'random hero'. They'll ally themselves with the Empire of Sweat as described in the comic, and Tarquin is back in control. What's the problem?

Tarquin's plan is not for the Empire of Sweat to ally with the resistance, the plan is for the Empire of Sweat to completely defuse any resistance. He even says "No guerrillas, no rebellion, no armed resistance by the populace". His plan is not to install anyone from the Free City of Doom as puppet ruler of anything, it's to add Doom to the Empire of Sweat.

[Math_Mage]

Tarquin's plan is not for the Empire of Sweat to ally with the resistance, the plan is for the Empire of Sweat to completely defuse any resistance. He even says "No guerrillas, no rebellion, no armed resistance by the populace". His plan is not to install anyone from the Free City of Doom as puppet ruler of anything, it's to add Doom to the Empire of Sweat.

No resistance to the Empire of Sweat, but Tarquin 'anticipates' (his own words) the creation of a resistance to the Empire of Tears in the Free City of Doom. Led by heroes or patsies or both, your call.