[3.5] Swordsage Handbook: This one'll walk the whole Way {WIP, PEACH}

[Phaederkiel]

Your argument falls apart the moment any realizes that falling and dropping are synonymous. And that you drop for the second half of a jump trajectory.

whose argument and why does it fall apart?
we are nitpicking at the moment anyway...


and

EDIT: And it's balanced. You need to make a 40 take jump the 10 feet needed to use battle jump on a medium creature. Not many characters will be able to make it without significant expenditures in other areas. Finally, the effect or Battle Jump is replicated by other feat combinations as well.

80 if not running. That would obviously balance it. But skillpoints are quite easily expendable.

[Snowbluff]

Skill points have very little to do with anything if you are trying to hit 80.

[ShneekeyTheLost]

whose argument and why does it fall apart?
we are nitpicking at the moment anyway...


and



80 if not running. That would obviously balance it. But skillpoints are quite easily expendable.

There's also a Tiger Claw Stance which gives +10' jump distance...

[Phaederkiel]

I should not have written anything about these dc 80 jumpchecks.
(and by the way, I am pretty sure the stance is meant to give plus 10 to jump, not 10 ft, since the difference between long and highjumping should be somewhere included)

No, seriously, I do not know whose argument falls apart. Please explain

[Phaederkiel]

another interesting feat for trippers is sandsnare from sandstorm.
While it is only useful in campaigns where you can count upon having loose earth, ash or sand lying around, it gets quite good when you can use it.

[Phaederkiel]

hey, RFLS, did you give up or did trying kill you?

I hope it is nothing bad.

[Snowbluff]

Another great feat for an SS is Sand Dance. Require sand, but blinding for 1 round with no action = awesome. Not to mention Wis is already a stat for Swordsages.

Also, this will keep you from quadruple posting

[DeltaEmil]

I should not have written anything about these dc 80 jumpchecks.
(and by the way, I am pretty sure the stance is meant to give plus 10 to jump, not 10 ft, since the difference between long and highjumping should be somewhere included)

It was surely meant to only give a +10 enhancement bonus on Jump checks, and not a +10 foot enhancement bonus, but that's the way it's written, and there is no real errata (the one being provided by Wizards of the Coast suddenly turns into the errata for Tome of Magic).
As it is now, Leaping Dragon Stance makes it that you can always jump at least 10 feet high in the air without any problems.

Quite frankly, I do not see this a problem. It's cool, and it gives non-spellcasters a nice little trick that looks quite awesome.

At best, it can only be abused into doing hp damage, which ubercharging does anyway, and spells are always a superior application of I-Win.

[RFLS]

hey, RFLS, did you give up or did trying kill you?

I hope it is nothing bad.

Haha, no, I'm definitely coming back. The end of the semester is coming up, and I'm in 19 hours of courses. Besides, if I try to get it all done in one go, the Handbook gods will notice someone trying to finish this one and smite me down.

[Phaederkiel]

hmm, snowbluff, do you think it is okay to post again? I do not want to invoke your anger...

My Party, and thus my player playing the birdman-swordsage had a go this weekend. Since I now know some more of the maneuvers first hand and non-theoretical, I have some comments to make about them.

a) cloak of deception. It is gold already, but if you had a better colour, it should be made that colour. It is stupid good. At CR4, she was able to use it about 6 to 8 times in a single session, every time to great potential. One can run far in 6 seconds. The possibility to walk around a corner, make a spot check, walk back again even if there are 10 guards waiting is invaluable. The wujens invisibility (which nevertheless made an impression) looked like the poor mans version in comparision.

b) Burning Blade in combination with wolf fang is huge at cr4, and likely will be still big enough at cr6 to cr8. 2w6 plus 8 for a swift is a nice deal at lowlvl, especially since the 8 can be multiplied by criticals. Especially since, at that low level, you have not the dozens of swifts and immedieates you will have later. Obviously, both maneuver will get swapped out later on, but at first they are quite good.

so, come one. I `d like to see some prestige class options which are not coming from the TOB. Is there a way to get maneuvers out of the TOB?

[Snowbluff]

hmm, snowbluff, do you think it is okay to post again? I do not want to invoke your anger...

Nah, I was doing you a favor. It's a forum rule not to overpost. Next time, it'd be better to just edit your post rather than posting a bunch of them.

so, come one. I `d like to see some prestige class options which are not coming from the TOB. Is there a way to get maneuvers out of the TOB?

Even though there are no Initiator Prestige classes in other books, the way your Initiator Level works you can use other classes in your build to little ill effect.

For example the Revenant Blade, easily one of the best TWF PrCs in the game.

[Dusk Eclipse]

Revenant Blade is hands down the best TWF focused class in the game (there aren't many classes that focus on TWF)

Sworsage 5/Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/ Revenant Blade 5/ Swordsage +9 (not in that order) nets you IL 16 and 16 BAB + all the nice goodies from Swordsage.

Be a Snow/Painted Elf from Valenar to avoid the Con penalty and get proficiency with the double scimitar without spending a feat in EWP.

[Snowbluff]

Revenant Blade is hands down the best TWF focused class in the game (there aren't many classes that focus on TWF)

Sworsage 5/Spirit Lion Barbarian 1/ Revenant Blade 5/ Swordsage +9 (not in that order) nets you IL 16 and 16 BAB + all the nice goodies from Swordsage.

Be a Snow/Painted Elf from Valenar to avoid the Con penalty and get proficiency with the double scimitar without spending a feat in EWP.

You could also grab some Eternal Blade, since you have all of the requirements. It's pretty hand if you need a Diamond Mind Maneuver you don't have.

3 Blades style!

[Dusk Eclipse]

Personally I don't think Eternal blade is worthwhile for Swordsages as the delayed entry (stupid BAB 10 pre-requisite) means you can't get the awesomeness of Island in Time).

[Snowbluff]

Personally I don't think Eternal blade is worthwhile for Swordsages as the delayed entry (stupid BAB 10 pre-requisite) means you can't get the awesomeness of Island in Time).

Yeah. Also, the late entry limits the handiness of the Maneuver learning ability.

[Phaederkiel]

I just looked at revenant blade (and liked it, it is really good).

Are there other prestige classes that good which focus on a single weapon ?

and are here any classes that further the swordsages learning of maneuvers?
There was some class that did, i remember, but I cannot remember the name.
Nor if the rest of the class was useful.

[Snowbluff]

and are here any classes that further the swordsages learning of maneuvers?
There was some class that did, i remember, but I cannot remember the name.
Nor if the rest of the class was useful.

All of the PrCs give you full IL for all your classes, and you can learnany maneuver from PrCs. For example, if you were a RKV, you could pick up Divine Spirit maneuvers from the Maneuvers Known for you Swordsage class, assuming you meet he prerequisites.

[Draz74]

Yeah, no PrC explicitly improves "your Swordsage progression" (except for PrCs that continue any class feature progression, like Uncanny Trickster), but any PrC that grants maneuvers can be used to add maneuvers to your Swordsage repertoire. (Although I think Master of Nine is the only PrC that lets you pick from all six Swordsage Disciplines.)

All of the PrCs in Tome of Battle, with the exception of Bloodstorm Blade, give you full IL for all your classes, and you can learnany maneuver from PrCs. For example, if you were a RKV, you could pick up Divine Spirit maneuvers from the Maneuvers Known for you Swordsage class, assuming you meet he prerequisites.

Fixed that for you.

[Phaederkiel]

argl. I put my foot in my mouth. I should have made more obvious that I knew about the initiator lvls the ToB prestiges give.

What I meant: are there prestige classes that further maneuvers exept those included in ToB (Like the trickster. Which i will look at now)

[Snowbluff]

argl. I put my foot in my mouth. I should have made more obvious that I knew about the initiator lvls the ToB prestiges give.

What I meant: are there prestige classes that further maneuvers exept those included in ToB (Like the trickster. Which i will look at now)

... Legacy Champion!

[Techwarrior]

Might I suggest adding Zenthyri (Monster Manual 2) to the list of Races that are good for Swordsages? They're +1 LA Planetouched, but if you give them Lesser Planetouched they've got that weirdo half human half outsider thing and LA 0.

+2 Str, +2 Wis, +2 Dex, -2 Cha, Resistance to Sonic, True Strike 1/day.

[Phaederkiel]

one thing that probably deserves a mention in the multiclass /prestigeclass section is how VERY well one lvl cleric synergizes with Swordsage in general and with Master of nine in particular.

one lvl cleric gives you

at least 2 domains (lets say: time and darkness)
which means blindfight and improved ini, true strike as a domain spell, lvl 1 cleric casting (probably meaning : 3 0th lvl, 3 1st lvl spells), turn attempts to fuel possible devotion /divine feats.

and probably also the ever-powerful Knowledge devotion.

which kills two of the prereq-feats from master of nine. Adaptive style is nearly as mandatory for swordsages as natural spell is for druids, and imp unarmed seems to be available by going unarmed swordsage. This leaves Dodge, which is easily affordable as a feat taxe, especially since there are much better replacements, such as expeditious dodge and desert wind dodge.
Note that these feat have no target, which means that elusive target RAW does not work anymore. Which is a shame.

Now, question to the great people here: how should an unarmed Swordsage look like? I know that this borders into homebrewland, but I think it is an issue that most Swordsage-players get confronted with. If you ask anything on these boards about master of 9, you get : "play an unarmed swordsage", even if nobody knows what it look like.
This handbook should at least contain suggestions.

[Gharkash]

Seeing Craven in the feat list, and having seen Assasin's Stance used as SA for prereqs, i have to ask. Is there an official ruling that Assasin's Stance qualifies as the Sneak Attack class feature for prereqs?

[Techwarrior]

(While you are in this stance) You gain the Sneak Attack ability, if you do not already have it, which deals an extra 2d6 points of damage.

It shouldn't need an official ruling. RAW gives you 2d6 Sneak Attack. The only question is whether your DM doesn't like you the RAW. There's even rules for you don't meet the prerequisites for a feat after taking it. I think they're in the DMG. Those state that you can't use the feat if you don't meet prerequisites anymore, but can after meeting them again. That means, by RAW you can't use Craven and the like when you don't have Sneak Attack, but if you get Sneak Attack again (by dropping into Assassins Stance) you can use the feats again.

[Gharkash]

True. It states that you get the sneak attack ability. Unfortunately my DM ruled otherwise.

[pHalcyon]

No, it doesn't.

One of the requirements of Craven is that you have the Sneak Attack class feature, while Assassin's Stance specifically gives it to you as an ability; nowhere on the Swordsage table or in its entry do I see it. Sure, you gain Sneak Attack from a stance, which is a class feature, but arguing that way is just bothersome.

Honestly, though, since it's just a bit more damage, I wouldn't rule against it. There are better options for your feats, and if you want to limit your effectiveness elsewhere to kill something in fewer hits, by all means, do it. Melee, even ToB melee, can still stand to have a few more nice things.

So bring it up with your DM.

[Gharkash]

Are the terms ability and class feature defined? ability seems vague and/or ambiguous. Nothing to talk to my DM though, it came up in a Telfawhatever Shadowlord prereq conversation.

[Draz74]

No, it doesn't.

One of the requirements of Craven is that you have the Sneak Attack class feature, while Assassin's Stance specifically gives it to you as an ability; nowhere on the Swordsage table or in its entry do I see it. Sure, you gain Sneak Attack from a stance, which is a class feature, but arguing that way is just bothersome.

Honestly, though, since it's just a bit more damage, I wouldn't rule against it. There are better options for your feats, and if you want to limit your effectiveness elsewhere to kill something in fewer hits, by all means, do it. Melee, even ToB melee, can still stand to have a few more nice things.

So bring it up with your DM.

Yeah, like pHalcyon said -- it's a pretty intuitive house rule, but it isn't RAW unless effects of maneuvers/stances count as "class features." (Which I think would be an ridiculous interpretation, but I've seen it argued on these Forums anyway.)

[Snowbluff]

Yeah, whenever I read class feature I read "Ability called X from the X class". So if you have, let's say, Trackless Step fro Bamboo Spiritfolk as the Druid Class Feature, it works for prerequisites.

I also rule normal as "Before this effect has taken place", and not as "before ANY effect has taken place".

[Phaederkiel]

I also rule normal as "Before this effect has taken place", and not as "before ANY effect has taken place".

What do you mean with that?


as to the craven debate: I am pretty sure that RAW (and probably RAI, too) assasins stance does not give you sneak attack as a prereq. This stance would else easily open up a lot of prestige classes(admittedly many of which are not so hot), and is easily gained by taking two feats.


btw: no love for unarmed swordsages?