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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    On the upside, though, Vulcan as a person is completely believable. No matter how much it doesn't make logical sense, it smacks of honest human motivation. I think that whether we like her as a person or not is irrelevant.
    Oh yeah, definitely agreed. Just trying to field the character's thoughts on things. Can't let the two of you have all the philosophy-discussion fun.

    What's her ethnicity? I keep seeing her as an Indian-African mix. Coupled with messing up the Moros/Mastigos bit, means I know nothin of Mara at all >_<
    Chinese American, actually, although I can kinda see where you're coming from.

    Dossier style with notes of specifics
    For Thanqol In a spoiler. While on the one hoof this isn't the kind of thing that needs to be a secret, the presentation sets the mood.
    I would agree with this. Or at least a sort of compromise between the two - maybe dossiers on some and then a few that Vulcan might know better and/or have passed on info for, we could know a bit more in-depth.
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    Oh yeah, definitely agreed. Just trying to field the character's thoughts on things. Can't let the two of you have all the philosophy-discussion fun.
    I get the feeling it's become in character philosophy to avoid an out of character argument XD

    Chinese American, actually, although I can kinda see where you're coming from.
    That's right. I should remember that. Problem is every time I think of Mara, I see Guerrera. We need ART! ASAP.

    DD, describe Mara, her mannerisms and her hobbies, please.
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    Hmm, I think Mara's response to the discussion is firstly some confusion. To her, materialists are the people who only believe in (little-m) matter and (little-f) forces and the laws of physics governing them. Someone who has objective evidence of the existence of things like souls and ghosts (let alone Magic) calling themselves a materialist is something she doesn't quite grok.
    Materialist in terms of not believing anything that cannot be directly owned, measured, controlled or experienced. So "Justice" does not appear on her list of priorities, nor any other wishy-washy concepts like "faith", "loyalty", or "right and wrong". If something is bad it's bad because it harms her physical, material interests, not because of any appeal to some higher concept.

    Put it this way: Killing people is bad because you might get caught.

    At the same time, she's not 100% opposed to the idea of selfishness, since everyone has to find their own way (her take on The Supernal is the Self). And her own motives in Hong Kong are admittedly self-interested. Still, she would disagree with the idea that you should cling to those desires above all else - after all, if you don't try out something you don't have a "natural" desire for you might not discover that you like it better than some of the other things you do currently want.

    Also, arguably, many desires are the result not of an individual's will, but their circumstances and prior history, which in an Awakened context is not necessarily all something that should be cleaved to. In that sense she would probably respect Vulcan more if there was evidence that she was at least exploring these things to try to arrive at a more truly individual set of motivations.

    Which now that I've said it strikes me as very Mastigos.

    Also, I would answer this in dialogue, but I don't know if I've captured her voice in my head yet. I know about her, but am not quite looking through her eyes.
    Vulcan has nothing against trying new things and broadening her horizons. Her motivations are just all based off measurable realities (if I do X, I will get Y) rather than abstract moral positions (doing X is wrong). Since she values knowledge as a key tool for avoiding being manipulated she constantly expands the number of potential transactions she's aware of.

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    Question for everyone. I'm planning to do a few Mammon profiles next, and I'd like to know how you'd like them presented. Since Vulcan is part of the organization, I could talk about its members in as much or more detail than the various Pentacle cabals. Or, I could give you reports more in the style of what we got on Cyprus, where the info is filtered through some Pentacle organization that is reporting on intel they've gathered. If you'd prefer some other format entirely, I could do that as well.
    No preference.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "Waste of argument. Spirituality is not denial of greed and selfishness. Spirituality is belief in impact of spirits, like economics is belief in impact of money.
    "Oh, you're talking about Sleeper spirituality. Sleeper spirituality is the meaningless and misguided belief in something that, through a distorted echo chamber, might one day sound like the Shadow. Sleeper economics is much the same. Both are meaningless in and of themselves.

    "Awakened spirituality is either a meaningless acceptance of reality, to go off your definition, or some kind of removal from the world of reality to focus on some barely perceptible higher realm to the exclusion of all other priorities."

    "Selfless attitude comes from spirituality in same way selfless attitude comes from belief in the soul. You say 'don't do bad things, they hurt you, but no need to do good things'? Spirituality the same, except doing good things does have benefits. For entire city.
    "What's a 'benefit'?"

    "Commercialist douche can master spirit arcanum. Aboriginal can master mind arcanum. So? Remove influence and watch again. Commercial douche breeds constant stream of bad things which hunt him and control him. If he was less souche, he would breed less. If he was good, he would breed constant stream of good things that fight off bad things. People recognize this; good begets good. You may think it unfortunate that "Good" and "Evil" are words used, but they are most accurate."
    "What's a 'good'?"

    "Oh, also, you need to learn concept of middle road. Not believe in spiritual pursuits so forsake all acts which do not directly harm you? Shortsighted."
    "Twaddle based off spurious and invalid moral assumptions."

    I think the issue is the use of words which have VASTLY different meanings in different contexts. One of the downsides of morality. Vulcan doesn't believe in Good, so she does nothing good because they're similar. It's like not using deodorant, you don't like it when it's hot, and eat is measured in degrees, an degree is a deodorant, therefore you don't like degree. I'm sure it's not that plain on Vulcan's end, but it seems that way at first brush.
    You're, again, direly wrong about Vulcan's personality. She doesn't believe in good but she still does good things. Her virtue is Charity.

    Her motivation for doing these good things isn't "IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!", though. It's "I get a happy buzz from sharing these awesome things, and I like being able to have conversations with equals."

    This is why she's so interested in learning how to make people into Sleepwalkers. Not out of any ideological purity but out of quite selfish desire to have friends and equals.

    On the upside, though, Vulcan as a person is completely believable. No matter how much it doesn't make logical sense, it smacks of honest human motivation. I think that whether we like her as a person or not is irrelevant.
    /Throne

    I am having a lot of trouble getting myself into the slothful mindset. I want to dump all relevant information immediately, and it is so hard not to! But yeah, there's a middle road in there, between "some selfishness is good" and "murder-rape-pillage ALL the things! Heil Mammon!", and it's interesting to watch the process of someone who believes that middle road is made up whole clothe by humans who couldn't get anything ad enforce a culture of selflessness out of selfishness.
    Still strawmanning Vulcan.
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    Materialist in terms of not believing anything that cannot be directly owned, measured, controlled or experienced. So "Justice" does not appear on her list of priorities, nor any other wishy-washy concepts like "faith", "loyalty", or "right and wrong". If something is bad it's bad because it harms her physical, material interests, not because of any appeal to some higher concept.

    Put it this way: Killing people is bad because you might get caught.
    Aside from Justice being a thing I've met – long story short, Twelve Fangs should have paid me no matter what she says and flick that guy – I don't disagree.

    Vulcan has nothing against trying new things and broadening her horizons. Her motivations are just all based off measurable realities (if I do X, I will get Y) rather than abstract moral positions (doing X is wrong). Since she values knowledge as a key tool for avoiding being manipulated she constantly expands the number of potential transactions she's aware of.
    ((This is where we enter the intelligence discrepancy, where the longer the conversation is, the closer to 1 the chances I Flouresce being proven wrong and/or being converted is))

    "Oh, you're talking about Sleeper spirituality. Sleeper spirituality is the meaningless and misguided belief in something that, through a distorted echo chamber, might one day sound like the Shadow. Sleeper economics is much the same. Both are meaningless in and of themselves.

    "Awakened spirituality is either a meaningless acceptance of reality, to go off your definition, or some kind of removal from the world of reality to focus on some barely perceptible higher realm to the exclusion of all other priorities."
    *shrug-nod*

    "What's a 'benefit'?"
    "Subjective."

    "What's a 'good'?"
    *shrug* "You brought it up first. I shouldn't have to explain your words to you. An obvious social trap."

    "Twaddle based off spurious and invalid moral assumptions."
    "Such as?"

    You're, again, direly wrong about Vulcan's personality. She doesn't believe in good but she still does good things. Her virtue is Charity.

    Her motivation for doing these good things isn't "IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO!", though. It's "I get a happy buzz from sharing these awesome things, and I like being able to have conversations with equals."

    This is why she's so interested in learning how to make people into Sleepwalkers. Not out of any ideological purity but out of quite selfish desire to have friends and equals.
    I didn't mean to imply otherwise. Consider that poor wording on my end rather than an argument.

    I also notice that what looked good earlier now reeks of terrible spelling. And I may have been on a laptop so I can't blame my phone. I need to be more diligent.

    Still strawmanning Vulcan.
    Er, no. You assume that 'Materialist' has the same preconceptions for me as for you. Coupled with an in-character reticence to explain her position because she seems to see it as a given, and that's how you've presented her. That statement was an exaggeration, but there being no spectrum, so you may as well do whatever is sort of what she's been saying. Along with morality being made up, pointless, and presumably from a transaction-oriented mindset this feeds into Master/Slave morality structures, wherein the 'slave' demonizes the 'master' and their ways with assertions of morality to make themselves feel superior.

    Those are several thoughts but I can't separate them for you and have tem be coherent. Look up slave/master morality or whatever is called (I always get the name wrong, for some reason) and see if you get what I meant.
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Aside from Justice being a thing I've met – long story short, Twelve Fangs should have paid me no matter what she says and flick that guy – I don't disagree.
    "That spirit wasn't 'Justice'. It was a deluded supernatural creature that reflected the localised idea of 'justice'."

    "Such as?"
    "Every part of that statement was incorrect on some level."

    Er, no. You assume that 'Materialist' has the same preconceptions for me as for you. Coupled with an in-character reticence to explain her position because she seems to see it as a given, and that's how you've presented her. That statement was an exaggeration, but there being no spectrum, so you may as well do whatever is sort of what she's been saying. Along with morality being made up, pointless, and presumably from a transaction-oriented mindset this feeds into Master/Slave morality structures, wherein the 'slave' demonizes the 'master' and their ways with assertions of morality to make themselves feel superior.

    Those are several thoughts but I can't separate them for you and have tem be coherent. Look up slave/master morality or whatever is called (I always get the name wrong, for some reason) and see if you get what I meant.
    There is no objective morality. There's only people doing stuff that they want to. When people do things they do not want to do it's because they've been brainwashed into accepting other people's priorities in place of their own.
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-08 at 11:24 PM.
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "That spirit wasn't 'Justice'. It was a deluded supernatural creature that reflected the localised idea of 'justice'."
    "Possibly. As a minor god however, I think you would be the one mistaken in this case."

    "Every part of that statement was incorrect on some level."
    "ad hominim. You could say I'm wrong and leave it there. I will continue to bother you if so. Or you could give me the tools to correct my view.

    "again, such as?"

    There is no objective morality. There's only people doing stuff that they want to. When people do things they do not want to do it's because they've been brainwashed into accepting other people's priorities in place of their own.
    Is this where she is coming from, a response to what I said?
    Consider how such a statement seems from the viewpoint of someone who can find a virtue, watch it, and see tangible results from its use or disuse. Our point thus far is that while ignoring your priorities is indeed a 'bad' thing, it is entirely possible to help yourself without tearing the other guy down. That Vulcan ignores this and lumps helpin other people, in all cases, in with hurting yourself, is way we have true to point out is untrue, an extrapolation with no backing.
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "ad hominim. You could say I'm wrong and leave it there. I will continue to bother you if so. Or you could give me the tools to correct my view.

    "again, such as?"
    If one were required to correct every wrong thing ever said, it would hardly be possible to get anything done.
    Last edited by Anarion; 2012-11-09 at 03:17 AM.
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    Anarion's right on the money here.
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    If one were required to correct every wrong thing ever said, it would hardly be possible to get anything done.
    Every wrong thing said would be hyperbole at best. I am part of Vulcan's immediate environment. Bothering her would be a state of the environ, not an active action on my part.

    There is also nothing wrong with asking for a less touchy, coy response to "explain what I said wrong". If one goes through the trouble of pointing out the spec in their neighbor's eye, they have already taken steps towards that as a problem.
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "Possibly. As a minor god however, I think you would be the one mistaken in this case."


    "'Minor God'? I believe the correct term is 'Powerful monster'. Don't bring your unsubstantiated theology into this."

    "ad hominim. You could say I'm wrong and leave it there. I will continue to bother you if so. Or you could give me the tools to correct my view.

    "again, such as?"
    "That I do not know what a 'middle road' is, that the 'middle road' has any kind of inherent benefit associated with it, that I don't 'believe in' spiritual pursuits, the implication that I 'forsake' all acts which do not directly 'harm me', and the statement that I'm shortsighted. That is what's wrong with that statement. I can't provide a detailed response to it because there's so much wrong that it overlaps and entangles into an intractable web of idiocy. The typos hardly help your case either."

    Is this where she is coming from, a response to what I said?
    Consider how such a statement seems from the viewpoint of someone who can find a virtue, watch it, and see tangible results from its use or disuse. Our point thus far is that while ignoring your priorities is indeed a 'bad' thing, it is entirely possible to help yourself without tearing the other guy down. That Vulcan ignores this and lumps helpin other people, in all cases, in with hurting yourself, is way we have true to point out is untrue, an extrapolation with no backing.
    "Urgh, your continued misinterpretation of my point has progressed beyond the point of childishly naive to merely childish. When did I say that it's impossible to help yourself without tearing the other guy down, when did I say that helping people hurts yourself? Maybe you should read a book or something."
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-09 at 05:30 AM.
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "Urgh, your continued misinterpretation of my point has progressed beyond the point of childishly naive to merely childish. When did I say that it's impossible to help yourself without tearing the other guy down, when did I say that helping people hurts yourself? Maybe you should read a book or something."
    "I think you were talking about desires there, right? That changing them meant by definition changing them to match someone else's, not your own? But isn't that the thing: what happens when different people's desires conflict? What decides the result, and if the answer is money or power, how do you deal with the fact that it may not be fair?"

    "I know you don't believe in Justice, or whatever, but you do believe in equal exchange, which can be the same thing as fairness, to me. In fact, with magic it's possible to measure lots of factors in that sort of exchange that used to be fuzzy and subjective - happiness, for example."

    EDIT: Finally started watching Fate/Zero for reals the other day
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    I have to say, I'm definitely getting interested. Even apart from the story, the visuals range from pretty to gorgeous, and there's definitely a feeling of polish to the art that I appreciate.

    What's really keeping me watching right now though (I'm at around S1:E4) is the characters and the setup to the Holy Grail War.

    We've got Kiritsugu (sp?) who's nominally in this to make the world a better place, and his Servant is pretty much the ideal of knightly purity and honor, but his past is anything but snow white - he's called a Mage killer, has engaged in tactics most of the other competitors consider reprehensible, has married a homunculus (possibly) and is willing to put her out as a decoy on the battlefield, even while he appears to have an affair going with his handler/contact/partner. Taken together, he can kind of seem like a jerk, but his affection for his daughter looks honest enough and his motives (as far as we currently know) are surprisingly noble. It's hard to hate him, although I don't necessarily agree with all he's done.

    We've also got bug-guy (sorry, names are still settling in, half of these are still roles in my head) who got hit pretty hard with the martyr stick. He's sacrificed his body, and possibly his mind to rescue Sakura from a similar fate (admittedly pushing quite a few buttons here), but it's not clear that he's been 100% successful, since she does seem to be having some PTSD. On the whole though, I really like him so far - he (maybe wrongly, maybe rightly) blames himself for what happened to the girl and took steps to amend his actions, even though he's aware that it may not be a happy ending whatever he does. While he could turn out to be a douche later on, right now I actually kind of admire his decisions, and I sort of want to make a Mage based on this guy... Some of that is also my interest in swarm as weapon, too.

    The British kid gets on my nerves a little, but he's interesting to me for the same reason the serial killer is - both of them got into the War by means that don't seem right, and certainly aren't nice. The kid basically stole someone else's place because he wanted power, and the other one apparently brought his Servant into the world by the sheer force of his own horribleness. There's something about the idea that participation depends not so much on merit or goodness as cunning and circumstance that feels very nWoD-y.

    Then there's also the priest and his secret ally. The whole political side of that alliance promises to make for some interesting developments, and the characters themselves look like they've got similarly complex histories to the others, but they haven't had as much spotlight yet, so I'm more or less waiting to see what happens. Similarly for the others that round out the combatants - don't know much yet, but I'm pretty sure they'll have their own little quirks.
    Last edited by the_druid_droid; 2012-11-09 at 01:29 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TheDarkDM
    That game does seem to have an unusual number of Bronies per square meter.
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    "I think you were talking about desires there, right? That changing them meant by definition changing them to match someone else's, not your own? But isn't that the thing: what happens when different people's desires conflict? What decides the result, and if the answer is money or power, how do you deal with the fact that it may not be fair?"

    "I know you don't believe in Justice, or whatever, but you do believe in equal exchange, which can be the same thing as fairness, to me. In fact, with magic it's possible to measure lots of factors in that sort of exchange that used to be fuzzy and subjective - happiness, for example."
    "When people's desires conflict, then it is up to those people to work it out. If a smart or charismatic person is able to negotiate a deal in their favour then hooray. 'Fairness' never comes into it, nor should it because 'fairness' is a meaningless word born of envy.

    "Equal exchange is something to be sought, not something to be given. The scales are always tilted. And if you want to bring happiness into the equation, how do you deal with the utility monsters?"
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post


    "'Minor God'? I believe the correct term is 'Powerful monster'. Don't bring your unsubstantiated theology into this."
    "Neither theology, nor unsubstantiated. You don't like the implications that come with the term "minor god" but that's your baggage, and I agree - your baggage is unsubstantiated.

    "Nigh unkillable. Immortal. Often omniscient, omnipresent and unless contested by an equal, omni-potent within their associated domain. Supernatural being with incredible Influence over a thing, and the embodiment of that thing. God. As deserving of the title as the Exarchs. Moreso, for some incarnae and some Exarchs. Speaking of those, I thought you would understand that god and supernatural monster were not exclusive of each other?"

    "That I do not know what a 'middle road' is, that the 'middle road' has any kind of inherent benefit associated with it, that I don't 'believe in' spiritual pursuits, the implication that I 'forsake' all acts which do not directly 'harm me', and the statement that I'm shortsighted. That is what's wrong with that statement. I can't provide a detailed response to it because there's so much wrong that it overlaps and entangles into an intractable web of idiocy. The typos hardly help your case either."
    "The middle road is as I have defined it for this discussion. It is a matter of cost:benefit. For the cost, the benefits are superior. A gain for both people is more than a gain for any one. You have so far said you don't believe this is true, why challenge that statement now?

    "If you listen to what you just said about acts which harm you, you will notice it is backwards."

    "And finally, you make your arguments from a position of immediacy, discounting the history of the conversation. You also bring a set of assumptions to a debate, unable to back them up and unwilling to consider the other viewpoint enough to actually combat it. You sit in a self-supposed rhetorical fortress and aren't willing to leave it long enough to see the cracks in the outside. That is short sighted."

    "Urgh, your continued misinterpretation of my point has progressed beyond the point of childishly naive to merely childish. When did I say that it's impossible to help yourself without tearing the other guy down, when did I say that helping people hurts yourself? Maybe you should read a book or something."
    "Do I really have to get a tape recorder or something?
    Intercourse is what you say, how you say it. It is also what the other hears, and how they can interpret base on the frame you've provided. I am not trying to misinterpret your point. I am telling you how you sound. If you don't like it, try sounding different. I may be bad at it but I am also trying, if for no reason than we are stuck together long enough that I can only benefit from it."


    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "When people's desires conflict, then it is up to those people to work it out. If a smart or charismatic person is able to negotiate a deal in their favour then hooray. 'Fairness' never comes into it, nor should it because 'fairness' is a meaningless word born of envy.

    "Equal exchange is something to be sought, not something to be given. The scales are always tilted. And if you want to bring happiness into the equation, how do you deal with the utility monsters?"
    "I see. Arrow visiting from Israel told me once, fair often wasn't. Justice is what is right, fair was what was 'equal'. It was an interesting idea. In this case, justice would be something we could agree on – a name for when someone gets what they earned. Blind Justice enforced the rules of agreement, no outside twists. What are your thoughts on sticking to agreed terms of engagement? Of implicit terms?

    "And what is utility monster?"
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-11-09 at 04:51 PM.
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "Neither theology, nor unsubstantiated. You don't like the implications that come with the term "minor god" but that's your baggage, and I agree - your baggage is unsubstantiated.

    "Nigh unkillable. Immortal. Often omniscient, omnipresent and unless contested by an equal, omni-potent within their associated domain. Supernatural being with incredible Influence over a thing, and the embodiment of that thing. God. As deserving of the title as the Exarchs. Moreso, for some incarnae and some Exarchs. Speaking of those, I thought you would understand that god and supernatural monster were not exclusive of each other?"
    "They're not 'Gods'. They're Spirits. The Exarchs aren't 'Gods' either. They're Exarchs. See, the entire foundation of my point is that you shouldn't bring loaded and meaningless terms like "God", "Justice" or "Fairness" into discussions like this. Be specific and be material."

    "The middle road is as I have defined it for this discussion. It is a matter of cost:benefit. For the cost, the benefits are superior. A gain for both people is more than a gain for any one. You have so far said you don't believe this is true, why challenge that statement now?
    "What do you mean 'a gain'? Do you mean a gain in money? Because that is patently false. Do you mean a gain in 'happiness'? Far too vague and situational to be a useful generalisation."

    "If you listen to what you just said about acts which harm you, you will notice it is backwards."

    "And finally, you make your arguments from a position of immediacy, discounting the history of the conversation. You also bring a set of assumptions to a debate, unable to back them up and unwilling to consider the other viewpoint enough to actually combat it. You sit in a self-supposed rhetorical fortress and aren't willing to leave it long enough to see the cracks in the outside. That is short sighted."
    "And you make an incoherent and rambling point to the table and claim that anyone who discounts it as fallacious is unwilling to consider other viewpoints. If there are contradictions in my argument you should be able to identify them and attack them. You are not doing so in any effective way."

    "Do I really have to get a tape recorder or something?
    Intercourse is what you say, how you say it. It is also what the other hears, and how they can interpret base on the frame you've provided. I am not trying to misinterpret your point. I am telling you how you sound. If you don't like it, try sounding different. I may be bad at it but I am also trying, if for no reason than we are stuck together long enough that I can only benefit from it."
    "The difference between us is that I don't have to convince others that my ideas are right in order to win. My ideas are right so they win regardless of if you believe in them or not."

    "I see. Arrow visiting from Israel told me once, fair often wasn't. Justice is what is right, fair was what was 'equal'. It was an interesting idea. In this case, justice would be something we could agree on – a name for when someone gets what they earned. Blind Justice enforced the rules of agreement, no outside twists. What are your thoughts on sticking to agreed terms of engagement? Of implicit terms?
    "There is a completely rational economic argument for creating a system where contracts are enforced. This enables the continued operation of the 21st century economy, which brings vast material benefits to those who opt into it.

    "This neither requires, mandates, nor creates an abstract term like justice, blind or not. The material benefits of the system justify the system."

    "And what is utility monster?"
    "A utility monster is a person who is capable of much greater happiness than other people. Imagine a person who becomes enormously happy, perhaps a thousand times happier, if given the same amount of money as a different person. If our objective is to maximise happiness, or utility, we should give this 'utility monster' a much greater share of the wealth because it will have a much greater total happiness effect than if we distributed it equally."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post


    "A utility monster is a person who is capable of much greater happiness than other people. Imagine a person who becomes enormously happy, perhaps a thousand times happier, if given the same amount of money as a different person. If our objective is to maximise happiness, or utility, we should give this 'utility monster' a much greater share of the wealth because it will have a much greater total happiness effect than if we distributed it equally."
    You're being so nice. The bigger problem is when the utility monster gains more utility from, say, murdering another human being than the remainder of humanity loses from the murder.

    Edit: Also, quit describing the head of Mammon before I get to him.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Anarion View Post
    You're being so nice. The bigger problem is when the utility monster gains more utility from, say, murdering another human being than the remainder of humanity loses from the murder.
    "My original point was going to be tied into utility monsters benefiting from dictatorial political control, but that seemed a little too on the nose for a simple definition."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "They're not 'Gods'. They're Spirits. The Exarchs aren't 'Gods' either. They're Exarchs. See, the entire foundation of my point is that you shouldn't bring loaded and meaningless terms like "God", "Justice" or "Fairness" into discussions like this. Be specific and be material."
    "'god' is not any more loaded a term than nurse, senator, male, Australian, mammal. How is an incarnae, which fits all definition of god, not a god? How is spirit supposed to be a distinction from god? They are not mutually exclusive."

    "What do you mean 'a gain'? Do you mean a gain in money? Because that is patently false. Do you mean a gain in 'happiness'? Far too vague and situational to be a useful generalisation."
    "When discussing variables and such, focusing on whether X represents .7 or 1.3 is meaningless. The language is abstract because the system can apply to many situations. If I said gain was only monetary, it would preclude a non monetary discussion of the system. By giving in to your baseless demands for specificity I would seem to be wrong, when I am not. This may work on most people, but I have a clear idea of my point, whether it is coming across or no."

    "And you make an incoherent and rambling point to the table and claim that anyone who discounts it as fallacious is unwilling to consider other viewpoints. If there are contradictions in my argument you should be able to identify them and attack them. You are not doing so in any effective way."
    "I am working at several levels of abstraction. Your specialization is potent but not omniblade-potent. I am mostly pointing out that your supposed obvious points from the get go are not correct. What looks like rambling is an eye for the past."

    "The difference between us is that I don't have to convince others that my ideas are right in order to win. My ideas are right so they win regardless of if you believe in them or not."
    "if this were so, would it not be clear? What you are passing off as materialism is a failing at the most basic application of soft skills."

    "There is a completely rational economic argument for creating a system where contracts are enforced. This enables the continued operation of the 21st century economy, which brings vast material benefits to those who opt into it.

    "This neither requires, mandates, nor creates an abstract term like justice, blind or not. The material benefits of the system justify the system."
    "Blind Justice is the minor god we spoke of prior. The existence of a creature does not allow obviating an argument because you find it worth sneering at.

    "There is also the point that an abstract concept exists to apply an easy appellation to a concept. That you will say justice does not exist and then go on todeacribe the definition of a just system is funny, but makes you look bad. A system where contracts are enforced could be called a just system. Would you deride it merely because of a label? The disdain you invest in the concept is not part of the concept. That is baggage you brim with you. It's a bias akin to racism. I would expect better of someone who tours logic."

    "A utility monster is a person who is capable of much greater happiness than other people. Imagine a person who becomes enormously happy, perhaps a thousand times happier, if given the same amount of money as a different person. If our objective is to maximise happiness, or utility, we should give this 'utility monster' a much greater share of the wealth because it will have a much greater total happiness effect than if we distributed it equally."
    "Interesting. There are some obvious answers but they require better articulation. I'll get back to you.

    "I will say that every situation should be judged by its individual merit. Arguing this is not arguing against me at all. If happiness is what we need, yes. Do that. Give utility monster all money. If you need something else, then it becomes stupi idea. This is what you said was Straw Man-ing I believe, since basis is make everyone happy, and you are somehow coming to the conclusion that everyone being happy is equal to one person being happy enough for everyone."
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "'god' is not any more loaded a term than nurse, senator, male, Australian, mammal. How is an incarnae, which fits all definition of god, not a god? How is spirit supposed to be a distinction from god? They are not mutually exclusive."
    "It does not fit all the definitions of 'god' because 'god' has different meanings in many different cultures. In the case of these creatures, omnipotence is laughable, omnipresence is debatable, omniscience is limited and impossible to prove, and all definition points use the western Judeo-Christian definitions of divinity, which also mandate compassion as a required trait for the Lord, among other things. If you use the Japanese 'kami' as your model you get a very different set of criteria for what constitutes a 'god', and using that framework then the title 'god' is meaningless and unrepresentative as individual trees and rocks can possess 'gods'.

    You're culturally confused, essentially."

    "When discussing variables and such, focusing on whether X represents .7 or 1.3 is meaningless. The language is abstract because the system can apply to many situations. If I said gain was only monetary, it would preclude a non monetary discussion of the system. By giving in to your baseless demands for specificity I would seem to be wrong, when I am not. This may work on most people, but I have a clear idea of my point, whether it is coming across or no."
    "If it is not specific, then it is meaningless. This is, consistently, the foundation of my point."

    "I am working at several levels of abstraction. Your specialization is potent but not omniblade-potent. I am mostly pointing out that your supposed obvious points from the get go are not correct. What looks like rambling is an eye for the past."
    "You can argue abstractions until you starve to death in a ditch. The world operates using real, material, specific interests and transactions."

    "if this were so, would it not be clear? What you are passing off as materialism is a failing at the most basic application of soft skills."
    "It is not go clear? Go buy some lunch. Observe the transactions that take place. Realise that you exist entirely within my paradigm, regardless of the circular verbal arguments you use to convince yourself that you do not."

    "Blind Justice is the minor god we spoke of prior. The existence of a creature does not allow obviating an argument because you find it worth sneering at.
    "In Astral Space, Narnia is a place you can visit. The existence of such a land does not allow you to obviate the righteous divinity of Aslan."

    "There is also the point that an abstract concept exists to apply an easy appellation to a concept. That you will say justice does not exist and then go on todeacribe the definition of a just system is funny, but makes you look bad. A system where contracts are enforced could be called a just system. Would you deride it merely because of a label? The disdain you invest in the concept is not part of the concept. That is baggage you brim with you. It's a bias akin to racism. I would expect better of someone who tours logic."
    "The point is, again, that 'justice' has no worth. We should not use it as a word because it leads to ass backwards thinking. Correlating a set of values with positive results does not justify those values as moral absolutes."

    "I will say that every situation should be judged by its individual merit.
    "Yes, exactly."

    Arguing this is not arguing against me at all.
    "I know. This wasn't a point you made. It's a point you butted into, demanded an explanation of, and then took my simple definition as an argumentative position, and posited a counter response to. Good job."

    If happiness is what we need, yes. Do that. Give utility monster all money. If you need something else, then it becomes stupi idea. This is what you said was Straw Man-ing I believe, since basis is make everyone happy, and you are somehow coming to the conclusion that everyone being happy is equal to one person being happy enough for everyone."
    "If we're using magic to add happiness to our calculations when determining how resources should be distributed, then we must account for people who would be miserable regardless of their financial status otherwise the accounting for happiness is meaningless."
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-09 at 09:00 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "If we're using magic to add happiness to our calculations when determining how resources should be distributed, then we must account for people who would be miserable regardless of their financial status otherwise the accounting for happiness is meaningless."
    "Don't get me wrong, I may be actually crazy, but I'm not a utilitarian. I just, eh, hard to explain. I've spent so much time either locked up in my own head or dragged around by moods that I don't trust my own desires. At least, not without some picking at them first. Something bigger than me at least gives me a fixed point to aim for."

    "But whatever, I don't really have a dog in this fight. My job right now is to make sure you play nice with the Pentacle, you can believe whatever you want if you believe it on our side. I've got more important things to discuss with the Council, once I find them..."
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    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    "Don't get me wrong, I may be actually crazy, but I'm not a utilitarian. I just, eh, hard to explain. I've spent so much time either locked up in my own head or dragged around by moods that I don't trust my own desires. At least, not without some picking at them first. Something bigger than me at least gives me a fixed point to aim for."
    "That puts you in the same category as most Sleepers. That's why we provide a plethora of bigger-picture goals for them to aim for - fame, fortune, a white picket fence house in the suburbs, a nice car, and so on. People are so satisfied with the choices we provide that a vanishingly tiny percentage of them feel any inclination to burn down reality."

    "But whatever, I don't really have a dog in this fight. My job right now is to make sure you play nice with the Pentacle, you can believe whatever you want if you believe it on our side. I've got more important things to discuss with the Council, once I find them..."
    "You remind me of my boss."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "That puts you in the same category as most Sleepers. That's why we provide a plethora of bigger-picture goals for them to aim for - fame, fortune, a white picket fence house in the suburbs, a nice car, and so on. People are so satisfied with the choices we provide that a vanishingly tiny percentage of them feel any inclination to burn down reality."
    "Yeah, but I have magic."

    "More seriously, reality can go hang, and so can fame and fortune and all that. What I want is to understand and be in control of myself. Maybe after that I'll worry about burning things down, or maybe by then I won't need to. I don't think the Throne can tell me who I really am any more than anyone else, so I'll just have to look for those answers myself."

    "You remind me of my boss."
    "I get the feeling that isn't a compliment. Right now though, I technically am your boss, or at least, your jailor. So I'll settle for it being accurate."
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    ((Omniblade-potent? What the flicking hay, phone? That doesn't make a darn lick of sense. I have no idea how that could even have happened unless omni... Yep. Leads into omniblade. Welp. Time to clear the cache.))

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "[...] all definition points use the western Judeo-Christian definitions of divinity, which also mandate compassion as a required trait for the Lord, among other things."
    "No they don't. I referenced several dictionaries and a definitively non-Enochian and non-oriental system. The listed traits also apply to the Yoruba religions, some native American standards, and various syncretic systems. That "God" and "kami" fall under the broader Aegis of god proves my point rather than invalidates it. If "God" wasn't a god then that would have been brought up before now by more discerning minds than ours.

    "God as a word has meaning. Definition. For you, it also has feeling, connotation. But I'm not talking about how you feel. Isn't basing an objective statement on such a subjective point of view as how you fe— oh hoho. Very well done. There is grain here, but I cannot do it justice."

    If you use the Japanese 'kami' as your model you get a very different set of criteria for what constitutes a 'god', and using that framework then the title 'god' is meaningless and unrepresentative as individual trees and rocks can possess 'gods'.

    You're culturally confused, essentially."
    "I have avoided discussion of divinity because you possess the philosophical acumen of a scalpel and the discernment of a freight truck. Discussing the philosophy behind concepts of divinity with you would be boring.

    "God-ness, for lack of term, is a thing which can be ascended to. It is a measure of magnitude. The kami of pebble is a kami. The kami of a mountain is a kami. The kami of all mountains is a kami. The first is merely a spirit. The second is a powerful spirit. The third is a powerful spirit which is also a god."

    "I am interested in something. We both accuse the other of being stuck on western theologisms. What 'tells' did you see that made you think I was working from that frame?"

    "If it is not specific, then it is meaningless. This is, consistently, the foundation of my point."
    "You are throwing the baby out with bath water. You need a finer grain than painfully specific or bust. Algebra is not that specific. It is also not meaningless."

    "You can argue abstractions until you starve to death in a ditch. The world operates using real, material, specific interests and transactions."

    "It is not go clear? Go buy some lunch. Observe the transactions that take place. Realise that you exist entirely within my paradigm, regardless of the circular verbal arguments you use to convince yourself that you do not."
    "Aha. You have misunderstood. I have never said otherwise. I have said that some things you think are abstract are actually concrete. Magic can quantify happiness. Magic can also quantify virtue. You too, exist within my paradigm. Where I acknowledge yours, you deny mine. This puts you more in danger of... Blunder, of making a mistake. Do you see?"

    "In Astral Space, Narnia is a place you can visit. The existence of such a land does not allow you to obviate the righteous divinity of Aslan."
    "This does not apply to what I said. I said one thing, you say the reverse as if it proves anything. Was this intentional?"

    "The point is, again, that 'justice' has no worth. We should not use it as a word because it leads to ass backwards thinking. Correlating a set of values with positive results does not justify those values as moral absolutes."
    "I see. You have a problem with what you believe will be the result four or five degrees, generations, down the road. So you cut it off here, to prevent future misunderstanding. I see this as cutting it off too soon. If you could see the clockwork which causes positive results from adhering to a set of values, if you could isolate variables, quantify, record and come to understand this, you would not be so fast to say it is untrue.

    "Good things do not happen to good people because they are moral. People who are "moral" are aided by universal mechanism which has a vested interest in cultivating that morality. It is a transaction system, but one you will never see if you don't believe it is there."

    "I know. This wasn't a point you made. It's a point you butted into, demanded an explanation of, and then took my simple definition as an argumentative position, and posited a counter response to. Good job."
    "Utility monster example was not the first time you have made this intimation, else I would not have answered it. You would be a terrible manager."

    "If we're using magic to add happiness to our calculations when determining how resources should be distributed, then we must account for people who would be miserable regardless of their financial status otherwise the accounting for happiness is meaningless."
    "Yes. Have you ever taken military aptitude tests? Common problem is five cogs. Two are superfluous. Three are not. When looking at something like this, some factors are superfluous. People are not just equations, or we would use computers for this instead of bickering governments. Man who is always miserable is not some issue with compiling, where we must sink as much into him as possible in vain attempt to make him happy until system reports inability to complete equation. A man not capable of happiness is an extra cog, not part of the mechanism."

    "Different direction, might solve things. What is your view on potential?"

    "That puts you in the same category as most Sleepers. That's why we provide a plethora of bigger-picture goals for them to aim for - fame, fortune, a white picket fence house in the suburbs, a nice car, and so on. People are so satisfied with the choices we provide that a vanishingly tiny percentage of them feel any inclination to burn down reality."
    "Dangerous game. How many pentacle learn this, get too extreme, destroy themselves by defining themselves using throne?

    "How do you fit into this? You talk like you are above the system but this whole intercourse sounds like you do not believe there is such thing as above the system."

    *checks watch*

    "Either of you want something from the kitchen?"
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    "Yeah, but I have magic."
    "And I am quite troubled by that fact, let me assure you."

    "More seriously, reality can go hang, and so can fame and fortune and all that. What I want is to understand and be in control of myself. Maybe after that I'll worry about burning things down, or maybe by then I won't need to. I don't think the Throne can tell me who I really am any more than anyone else, so I'll just have to look for those answers myself."
    "See, it's this kind of self-denial and systematic brainwashing of yourself that leads to decisions like "Reality can go hang". Do you have any idea how many people live in reality?"

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "No they don't. I referenced several dictionaries and a definitively non-Enochian and non-oriental system. The listed traits also apply to the Yoruba religions, some native American standards, and various syncretic systems. That "God" and "kami" fall under the broader Aegis of god proves my point rather than invalidates it. If "God" wasn't a god then that would have been brought up before now by more discerning minds than ours.

    "God as a word has meaning. Definition. For you, it also has feeling, connotation. But I'm not talking about how you feel. Isn't basing an objective statement on such a subjective point of view as how you fe— oh hoho. Very well done. There is grain here, but I cannot do it justice."
    "Natch."

    "I have avoided discussion of divinity because you possess the philosophical acumen of a scalpel and the discernment of a freight truck. Discussing the philosophy behind concepts of divinity with you would be boring.

    "God-ness, for lack of term, is a thing which can be ascended to. It is a measure of magnitude. The kami of pebble is a kami. The kami of a mountain is a kami. The kami of all mountains is a kami. The first is merely a spirit. The second is a powerful spirit. The third is a powerful spirit which is also a god."
    "Third doesn't follow. If the Supernal is Truth, then isn't any fallen-world "God" just a part of the Lie? As Mages, what business do we have worshipping any part of the Lie? Shouldn't we of all people know better?"

    "I am interested in something. We both accuse the other of being stuck on western theologisms. What 'tells' did you see that made you think I was working from that frame?"
    "The laundry list of traits that served as part of your definition earlier seemed like a package of traits that come with increasing one's Divine Rank rather than any traits unique to divinity. In fact by that list -

    "Nigh unkillable. Immortal. Often omniscient, omnipresent and unless contested by an equal, omni-potent within their associated domain. Supernatural being with incredible Influence over a thing, and the embodiment of that thing. God.
    " - any Master of Life/Death and Space fits your criteria for being a 'God'."

    "You are throwing the baby out with bath water. You need a finer grain than painfully specific or bust. Algebra is not that specific. It is also not meaningless."
    "If you try to perceive reality through mechanistic, mathematic moral structures then you will be forever the slave of those who authored those structures."
    "Aha. You have misunderstood. I have never said otherwise. I have said that some things you think are abstract are actually concrete. Magic can quantify happiness.
    "I don't actually believe it can, in an objective sense."

    Magic can also quantify virtue.
    "No, it can not. Are you still using Spirits as your example of this? The Spirit doesn't quantify any 'virtue'. It reflects localised perceptions of the value in question. In fact, if I made up my own virtue, I'll call it Quockaphageus, which is like Justice but only for Hispanics, and promoted that, then there'd be spirits of Quockaphageus all over the place before long. It would tell me a lot about the people who believed in Quockaphageus, but not a lot about the truth or value inherent in Quockaphageus."

    You too, exist within my paradigm. Where I acknowledge yours, you deny mine. This puts you more in danger of... Blunder, of making a mistake. Do you see?"
    "My paradigm rejects objective virtue and morality and yours seems to embrace it. Acknowledging your beliefs as valid would weaken the core of mine."

    "This does not apply to what I said. I said one thing, you say the reverse as if it proves anything. Was this intentional?"
    "My point is that Spirits don't ascend from on high, fully formed, carrying Supernal Truth in their arms. They're constructs of humanity, just like Narnia."

    "I see. You have a problem with what you believe will be the result four or five degrees, generations, down the road. So you cut it off here, to prevent future misunderstanding. I see this as cutting it off too soon. If you could see the clockwork which causes positive results from adhering to a set of values, if you could isolate variables, quantify, record and come to understand this, you would not be so fast to say it is untrue.

    "Good things do not happen to good people because they are moral. People who are "moral" are aided by universal mechanism which has a vested interest in cultivating that morality. It is a transaction system, but one you will never see if you don't believe it is there."
    "Exactly. Except that 'universal mechanism' was set in place for a reason by powerful forces back in our past and if you let it dictate the tone and tempo of your life and make important decisions using it as a framework you are enslaved to that framework. It's a trap. Buying into it is the process of submerging your own desires and making you less of a human being and more of a manipulated agent."

    "Yes. Have you ever taken military aptitude tests? Common problem is five cogs. Two are superfluous. Three are not. When looking at something like this, some factors are superfluous. People are not just equations, or we would use computers for this instead of bickering governments. Man who is always miserable is not some issue with compiling, where we must sink as much into him as possible in vain attempt to make him happy until system reports inability to complete equation. A man not capable of happiness is an extra cog, not part of the mechanism."

    "Different direction, might solve things. What is your view on potential?"
    "Potential to do what?"

    "Dangerous game. How many pentacle learn this, get too extreme, destroy themselves by defining themselves using throne?
    "Wut?"

    "How do you fit into this? You talk like you are above the system but this whole intercourse sounds like you do not believe there is such thing as above the system."
    [Break! Philosophical weak point! There have been a few but you've glided right past them. If I answered that here, Vulcan would have to have Character Development, and that's deliberately being left for in play.

    Vulcan's philosophy has a fair few holes and contradictions, deliberately placed. A necessity for growth. Unlikely to drastically revise her views, but likely to force her to follow them to their conclusion.

    Incidentally this has taught me that there is no possibility of Vulcan going Free Council ever, but she'd make a natural fit for the Mysterium.]
    Last edited by Thanqol; 2012-11-10 at 12:02 AM.
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "Third doesn't follow. If the Supernal is Truth, then isn't any fallen-world "God" just a part of the Lie? As Mages, what business do we have worshipping any part of the Lie? Shouldn't we of all people know better?"
    "I never said worship. A shamanistic relationship to the spirits is akin to a seer's relation with an exarch in theory.

    "The Lie is also a strange point. Is the current world, separated from
    The Supernal by the abyss, the lie? That we as sleepers were unaware that there was more? Or is everything which is not the Supernal the lie?"

    "The laundry list of traits that served as part of your definition earlier seemed like a package of traits that come with increasing one's Divine Rank rather than any traits unique to divinity. In fact by that list -
    "Divine rank? Is that from Starcraft?"

    " - any Master of Life/Death and Space fits your criteria for being a 'God'."
    "That is the functional pentacle understanding of how the Exarchs, self-made gods, and their worshippers the Seers of the throne, operate."

    "If you try to perceive reality through mechanistic, mathematic moral structures then you will be forever the slave of those who authored those structures."
    "No no. Math is language. This is all so we can have a common language for ideas."

    "I don't actually believe it can, in an objective sense."
    "Oh."

    "No, it can not. Are you still using Spirits as your example of this? The Spirit doesn't quantify any 'virtue'. It reflects localised perceptions of the value in question. In fact, if I made up my own virtue, I'll call it Quockaphageus, which is like Justice but only for Hispanics, and promoted that, then there'd be spirits of Quockaphageus all over the place before long. It would tell me a lot about the people who believed in Quockaphageus, but not a lot about the truth or value inherent in Quockaphageus."
    "If a moral is not objective to the universe but still exists, then it's perception would be the truth of it. Your cracker-esophagus would be stupid, and silly, but no less cracker-esophagus."

    "My point is that Spirits don't ascend from on high, fully formed, carrying Supernal Truth in their arms. They're constructs of humanity, just like Narnia."
    "Ah. There you wrong."

    "Exactly. Except that 'universal mechanism' was set in place for a reason by powerful forces back in our past and if you let it dictate the tone and tempo of your life and make important decisions using it as a framework you are enslaved to that framework. It's a trap. Buying into it is the process of submerging your own desires and making you less of a human being and more of a manipulated agent."
    "Doubt it. Arcanum of spirit predates Tower of Babel. Spirit is part of the Primal Wilds. Just as Supernal as anything else from the realms."

    "Potential to do what?"
    "As a concept. Potential energy in physics is similar to potential energy in cellular metabolism. There is also potential energy in social situations. I think you don't care or haven't considered. That's why we differ."

    "Wut?"
    "What you said sounds reasonable. It is dangerously seductive. One could think it was the only truth. Pentacle sometimes get zealous in their dislike of the throne. If the throne says 'jumping off a bridge is stupid', I have to wonder how many pentacle tried to fly.

    "Difference is Mara's answer is good, better than you let on. Reliance on your system is by degrees. It seems any attempt to lessen dependence upsets you."

    [Break! Philosophical weak point! There have been a few but you've glided right past them. If I answered that here, Vulcan would have to have Character Development, and that's deliberately being left for in play.

    Vulcan's philosophy has a fair few holes and contradictions, deliberately placed. A necessity for growth. Unlikely to drastically revise her views, but likely to force her to follow them to their conclusion.

    Incidentally this has taught me that there is no possibility of Vulcan going Free Council ever, but she'd make a natural fit for the Mysterium.]
    A'ight. I figured this would be the background conversation that gives us enough insight to work together.

    I've found Flouresce to be subtly, passive-aggressively womanizing. It's interesting. I also recognized two things, that his tendency is to answer a question without elaboration – painfully hard for me, personally – and that it plays perfectly into your supposed genius.

    I think he's going to like Mara initially because Mara could be like Vulcan but is instead a rational, sensible human being. XD
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "I never said worship. A shamanistic relationship to the spirits is akin to a seer's relation with an exarch in theory.
    "I suspect a profound misunderstanding of the Exarchs. Unless you aspire to be a Spirit?

    "Also, why acknowledge a creature as a god if you're not going to worship it? Part of what makes a god a god is responding to prayers and supplication, otherwise, again, powerful monster,"

    "The Lie is also a strange point. Is the current world, separated from
    The Supernal by the abyss, the lie? That we as sleepers were unaware that there was more? Or is everything which is not the Supernal the lie?"
    "It's your people who continually insist that anything not Supernal is Lie."

    "That is the functional pentacle understanding of how the Exarchs, self-made gods, and their worshippers the Seers of the throne, operate."
    "I know a guy, in person, who is a second degree master of both of those things. He fits your criteria for deification. Would you like to worship him?

    "If not, do not call him a god."

    "No no. Math is language. This is all so we can have a common language for ideas."
    "Math is fine for engineering. Math is not fine for constructing moral frameworks."

    "If a moral is not objective to the universe but still exists, then it's perception would be the truth of it. Your cracker-esophagus would be stupid, and silly, but no less cracker-esophagus."
    "Exactly, and that is what I am saying of "Justice" and any other concepts of it's ilk. It is stupid and silly and a lot of people have a perception of it which equals the truth of it."

    "Ah. There you wrong."

    "Doubt it. Arcanum of spirit predates Tower of Babel. Spirit is part of the Primal Wilds. Just as Supernal as anything else from the realms."
    "Oh, you're playing the Atlantis card? This should be good. You know, I heard that none of the Arcanum predated the Ladder, and magic was one indivisible force. What do you say about that?"

    "As a concept. Potential energy in physics is similar to potential energy in cellular metabolism. There is also potential energy in social situations. I think you don't care or haven't considered. That's why we differ."
    "Potential to do what?

    "You can't have a position on 'potential energy', or 'potential murderer', or 'potential cherry'. Potential what?"
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "I suspect a profound misunderstanding of the Exarchs. Unless you aspire to be a Spirit?

    "Also, why acknowledge a creature as a god if you're not going to worship it? Part of what makes a god a god is responding to prayers and supplication, otherwise, again, powerful monster,"
    "I can try to find the original Vulcan, and eventually succeed. He would be Vulcan, child of titans. I would not feel the new to worship him, but that would not make him any less an Olympian god. It woul make him a victim of the same cycle Jupiter started with the titanomachy."

    "It's your people who continually insist that anything not Supernal is Lie."
    "You have no take?"

    "I know a guy, in person, who is a second degree master of both of those things. He fits your criteria for deification. Would you like to worship him?

    "If not, do not call him a god."
    "I won't. Until he ascends to godhood."

    "Math is fine for engineering. Math is not fine for constructing moral frameworks."
    "I am talking to someone who coyly refuses to acknowledge some words have meaning. Should I not speak their language then? Attempting intercourse already means I have interest in succeeding.

    "Or is talking to you further an example of a sunk cost fallacy?"

    "Oh, you're playing the Atlantis card? This should be good. You know, I heard that none of the Arcanum predated the Ladder, and magic was one indivisible force. What do you say about that?"
    "White light, rainbow.
    Does Atlantis predate the Primal Wilds?"

    "Potential to do what?

    "You can't have a position on 'potential energy', or 'potential murderer', or 'potential cherry'. Potential what?"
    "I thought as much."
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "Utility monster example was not the first time you have made this intimation, else I would not have answered it. You would be a terrible manager."
    "I still can't imagine this as anything else than something with a copy of On Liberty in four or five tentacles, and sharp, pointy teeth."

    *checks watch*

    "Either of you want something from the kitchen?"
    "Sure, Flor. Whatcha got?"

    [Yeah, she's probably going to have a nickname for Fluoresce. I'll at least give you a shot at helping choose a final spelling, though.]

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "And I am quite troubled by that fact, let me assure you."
    "Good. Bad for business if you get too comfortable."

    "See, it's this kind of self-denial and systematic brainwashing of yourself that leads to decisions like "Reality can go hang". Do you have any idea how many people live in reality?"
    "Not off the top of my head. But I don't see how burning it down is any better for any of them. Besides, I intend to pick it back up eventually. Just let me deal with my own little branch of reality first. Then I can work on everybody else's problems."

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "No no. Math is language. This is all so we can have a common language for ideas."
    "Or as I like to call it, Mind 3"

    A'ight. I figured this would be the background conversation that gives us enough insight to work together.

    I've found Flouresce to be subtly, passive-aggressively womanizing. It's interesting. I also recognized two things, that his tendency is to answer a question without elaboration – painfully hard for me, personally – and that it plays perfectly into your supposed genius.

    I think he's going to like Mara initially because Mara could be like Vulcan but is instead a rational, sensible human being. XD
    Hmm, learning a bit about Mara. Her laziness comes through in the fact that she probably could debate Vulcan a bit more formally - she has the Int dots and the Mind magic to do it, but paired with her low-grade selfishness (which she tries to manifest as a more positive "live and let live") means that she'd rather hang back and offer commentary, rather than go toe-to-toe.

    EDIT: Also, it's tempting to revise her vice to Pride, but I'm still fairly certain that her arrogance is an outgrowth of Envy. She can't go back and have a more satisfying childhood, but magic does let her get her own back in other ways, which exacerbates her pride. She wants what she can't ever really have, but she'll take comfort in using what she does have. The trick is not sliding into hubris...
    Last edited by the_druid_droid; 2012-11-10 at 01:49 AM.
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    "I can try to find the original Vulcan, and eventually succeed. He would be Vulcan, child of titans. I would not feel the new to worship him, but that would not make him any less an Olympian god. It woul make him a victim of the same cycle Jupiter started with the titanomachy."
    "Is there such a guy? There's probably a Spirit and an Astral entity that claim to be him, but as we've already discussed that's not indicative of anything."

    [Thanqol has Opinions on what happens when an actual God gets loose in the Fallen World. These Opinions include features like 'Japan Sized Demesne'.]

    "You have no take?"
    "Theories, untested until I am able to experiment."

    "I won't. Until he ascends to godhood."
    "Then why not worship the Exarchs while you're at it?"

    "I am talking to someone who coyly refuses to acknowledge some words have meaning. Should I not speak their language then? Attempting intercourse already means I have interest in succeeding.

    "Or is talking to you further an example of a sunk cost fallacy?"
    "Speak the language, certainly. When dealing with a deluded fool then you should by all means play along to their insanity. My objection is against letting yourself being ruled by it."

    "White light, rainbow.
    Does Atlantis predate the Primal Wilds?"
    "Apparently the two worlds were one back then. And also that timeline may or may not exist. My point is that Atlantis is barely coherent as a thing, let alone being able to make definitive statements about what was or was not a thing back then."
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by the_druid_droid View Post
    "I still can't imagine this as anything else than something with a copy of On Liberty in four or five tentacles, and sharp, pointy teeth."
    *smirk* "It may be, of this debate keeps up."

    "Sure, Flor. Whatcha got?"

    [Yeah, she's probably going to have a nickname for Fluoresce. I'll at least give you a shot at helping choose a final spelling, though.]
    Reminds me. Flouresce was a stand in name I've grown semi–attached to. Chung-Hee is a Korean name speaking of the generative property of light. Hence Flouresce, the act of being fluorescent. His themes are concrete and neon, and Neon sounded dumb. Any suggestions?

    If sticking with Flouresce, probably Flow. Sounds like a tacky DJ name, the kind of handle someone who posts videos of themselves dancing on YouTube would use. There's a bit of self referential mocking to the name.

    "Good. Bad for business if you get too comfortable."
    ... And this is why you got that promotion.

    "Or as I like to call it, Mind 3"
    Shut up! We can't all have easy to deal with inferior arcana!
    ... And then I remember Vulcan is the Moros, inferior spirit, and recognize that "face into brick wall" feeling for what it is.

    The aftermath of ramming my face into a brick wall.

    Hmm, learning a bit about Mara. Her laziness comes through in the fact that she probably could debate Vulcan a bit more formally - she has the Int dots and the Mind magic to do it, but paired with her low-grade selfishness (which she tries to manifest as a more positive "live and let live") means that she'd rather hang back and offer commentary, rather than go toe-to-toe.

    EDIT: Also, it's tempting to revise her vice to Pride, but I'm still fairly certain that her arrogance is an outgrowth of Envy. She can't go back and have a more satisfying childhood, but magic does let her get her own back in other ways, which exacerbates her pride. She wants what she can't ever really have, but she'll take comfort in using what she does have. The trick is not sliding into hubris...
    Envy does seem to fit. Subtle But workable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    "Is there such a guy? There's probably a Spirit and an Astral entity that claim to be him, but as we've already discussed that's not indicative of anything."
    "Depends on your priority. If a smith spirit in the bronze age became renowned as the smith god Vulcan, and became a smith god, the smith god, then as far as factual history goes he is Vulcan. Chicken and egg sort of."

    [Thanqol has Opinions on what happens when an actual God gets loose in the Fallen World. These Opinions include features like 'Japan Sized Demesne'.]
    It's taken me three games and building a familiar to figure it out, but spirits are scary. First, there is that 1-10 scale on rank. Ignore that. It's a lie. Spirits come in 5 ranks; regular guy, supernatural guy, boss monster, end boss monster, god. Those are the five ranks of spirit that you'll actually deal with. Ranks 6-10 technically exist, but are in the realm of ST fiat purely. A rank 5 spirit could have influence sufficient to do what Loki did, and extend a demense across an island nation. He could also do more. The next step up is insanely strong. Potent enough that it is a magnitude greater than a minor god.

    Dial it back. Dial it in. Rank 1 spirit, barely sentient mote. If you piss it off, it's got the capacity for a 6 dice attack pool. That's equivalent to being smashed in the face by a fit amateur league boxer. And these are constantly coming out of your brain.

    "Theories, untested until I am able to experiment."
    *nod*

    "Then why not worship the Exarchs while you're at it?"
    "You already know the answer."

    "Apparently the two worlds were one back then. And also that timeline may or may not exist. My point is that Atlantis is barely coherent as a thing, let alone being able to make definitive statements about what was or was not a thing back then."
    "White light, rainbows."
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by SiuiS View Post
    Shut up! We can't all have easy to deal with inferior arcana!
    ... And then I remember Vulcan is the Moros, inferior spirit, and recognize that "face into brick wall" feeling for what it is.

    The aftermath of ramming my face into a brick wall.
    And finally the penny drops.

    You get this exact same type of debate if you talk to Jayden about Death. "It's stupid and wrong even if it's right".

    "Depends on your priority. If a smith spirit in the bronze age became renowned as the smith god Vulcan, and became a smith god, the smith god, then as far as factual history goes he is Vulcan. Chicken and egg sort of."
    "So does the term 'god' then refer to any regular Spirit who's name is known by enough people? What if Vulcan never progressed beyond the rank of a minor smith Spirit even as the legend grew?"

    It's taken me three games and building a familiar to figure it out, but spirits are scary. First, there is that 1-10 scale on rank. Ignore that. It's a lie. Spirits come in 5 ranks; regular guy, supernatural guy, boss monster, end boss monster, god. Those are the five ranks of spirit that you'll actually deal with. Ranks 6-10 technically exist, but are in the realm of ST fiat purely. A rank 5 spirit could have influence sufficient to do what Loki did, and extend a demense across an island nation. He could also do more. The next step up is insanely strong. Potent enough that it is a magnitude greater than a minor god.
    I still consider them different categories, between 'Supernal entity' and 'Shadow Spirit'. Summoners backs me up on this.

    Admittedly, both use the Spirit mechanics but all WoD monsters, including Crypids and ghosts do.

    "You already know the answer."
    "Actually, on this one as it relates to you, I don't. Hubris?"
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    Default Re: The Heart of the Dragon (OOC)

    Quote Originally Posted by Thanqol View Post
    And finally the penny drops.

    You get this exact same type of debate if you talk to Jayden about Death. "It's stupid and wrong even if it's right".
    I still kept thinking Mara was the one with Spirit inferior. Remarkable.

    "So does the term 'god' then refer to any regular Spirit who's name is known by enough people? What if Vulcan never progressed beyond the rank of a minor smith Spirit even as the legend grew?"
    "What if a bank account had more money in it despite not having more money in it?

    "A god can spring forth as a god. What differentiates god and Titan?"

    I still consider them different categories, between 'Supernal entity' and 'Shadow Spirit'. Summoners backs me up on this.

    Admittedly, both use the Spirit mechanics but all WoD monsters, including Crypids and ghosts do.
    Cryptids do to? I thought they were built standard. Huh.

    That's a good question actually. Orisha would be straight spirit. The Aesir would be spirits, and the Vanir probably Supernal. If Vulcan gets information on Supernal summoning, she would be able to shut Flouresce up. His argument is that even if there was no Spirit arcana, there is still Supernal magic which affects spirits. Given that spirit arcana does not work on (non Spirit) Supernal spirits, we can safely assume there is something in the primal wild that spirit does affect.

    There are also spirits with absolutely no human involvement in their life cycle. A mountain remembers itself as animals and plants thrive there.

    More terrifying, and something we have danced around, there are spirits which predate existence as we know it. Like, of concepts that are beyond, or in opposition to, physics, thermodynamics, matter, energy, etc. they are terrifying, conceptually and literally. Like that doctor Who episode of creatures affecte by words before science took root. Except not so nice as that. Informing the Throne of Idigam strikes me as a Bad IdeaTM.

    "Actually, on this one as it relates to you, I don't. Hubris?"
    "I do not worship something because it is a god. Some do."

    *****

    "Sifu, It is my estimation we cannot let the prisoner near any awakened if possible. She is too clever. The dull will be taken away. The smart will be snared through pride. She could slowly turn many of those few we have."
    Last edited by SiuiS; 2012-11-10 at 05:02 AM.
    "Patience has its limits. Take it too far, and it's cowardice."

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