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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    Oh I know it fits the episodic nature and such, its just, the cast doesnt really change at all no matter what happens. Aside from death and reassignments, the cast stays almost identical, (oh wait, riker and his facial hair) and nothing has any lasting effect on the crew, so yes, you can jump in at any point and follow along, but you also are dealing with an identical setup for years on end.
    That's not a bad thing necessarily, and there is changes, however subtle. Been assimilated temporarily had a lasting impact on Picard's character, for example.
    Worf found out there was much more than just his fairy tale version of Klingon culture,as well as what it meant to be a father, though the former was explored more in DS9.
    Besides growing the beard, Riker also grew from being a Kirk wannabe to a much more mature, centered, individual.
    Last edited by Ravens_cry; 2012-11-03 at 01:39 AM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Trying to get into Star Trek

    If you like the concept of Star Trek, but dislike the episodic nature, you might want to try the Starfleet Corps of Engineers or New Frontier series. The former is a series of novellas (each of which is similar in content and concept to a ST episode) featuring a dedicated engineering ship running around dealing with crises after the Dominion War, while the latter is a novel series featuring an entirely new captain and crew. Both feature a number of underlying storylines, and the fact that there are very few characters from the shows make them ideal for someone less familiar with the universe.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Ok, you guys were right, I had honestly forgotten about picard and his serious levels of hesitancy when dealing with the kids especially on his ship. Early on he was different. As far as worf goes, the thing is, all those lessons he learned? They really only apply in specific episodes. Thats really the case with a lot of the big character stories, like locutis, worf and his klingon encounters, riker and his beard, they are these big life changing events, but after the episode is over, its almost like they never happened.

    Take picard and the episode where he lived an entire life in his head of someone else. The Inner Light I think it was? At the end of the episode, he picks up a flute and starts playing it, a habit his other life had. It shows there are marks left on him from the experience, not visible, but there. But then its never mentioned again. As far as I know, nothing to do with it is ever brought up afterwards. I dunno, maybe we see the flute on a display in his office or something.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    The flute actually does show up again in the sixth season in the episode that Picard tries to have a relationship with one of the science officers.
    Two by two, hands of blue.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Hands_Of_Blue View Post
    The flute actually does show up again in the sixth season in the episode that Picard tries to have a relationship with one of the science officers.
    1-episode continuity... woopie-doodad.

    I mean, it's great they acknowledged it, but if this was BSG, they'd spend at least 5 episodes with the Capitain in rehab trying to cope with the life he never had, remember the real one.

    That can be a powerful trauma, to have live, love and had children. And then realizing it wasn't even your life.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    1-episode continuity... woopie-doodad.

    I mean, it's great they acknowledged it, but if this was BSG, they'd spend at least 5 episodes with the Capitain in rehab trying to cope with the life he never had, remember the real one.

    That can be a powerful trauma, to have live, love and had children. And then realizing it wasn't even your life.
    1. Yea, but mental health care in the federation is implied to be better than in the colonies.

    2. So then, it's more like Pickard's "Assimilated" arc, which was back referenced frequently and took a lot for him to truly "get over" if you agree he ever did (some debate).
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by turkishproverb View Post
    1. Yea, but mental health care in the federation is implied to be better than in the colonies.

    2. So then, it's more like Pickard's "Assimilated" arc, which was back referenced frequently and took a lot for him to truly "get over" if you agree he ever did (some debate).
    Good point. Picard's character arc regarding his assimilation and dealing with it was better done, but again rather underplayed. I cannot believe only SISKO grudges him for heading the borg's invasion fleet an nearly annihilating earth.

    ... damn it, now you make me wanna merge these two elements together. Imagine if the Borg learned of Picard's experience with the Probe, and wants to assimilate him so they can forever preserve the knowledge about that Lost Civilization. They'd think that this knowledge is important (any civilization are important, in their own way), and they believe said knowledge will lost with Picard.

    So they hunt him down specifically, for he is the only remnant of this civilization. Hell, Picard could actually be tempted between preserving the knowledge of his lost world forever, or losing his individuality..

    And then, you'd have Data show up and give HIM a Patrick Stewart speech:

    Quote Originally Posted by Data
    It is not enough to know the facts, sir. I am not merely the summation of the things I know, but the summation of the things I lived. The people of Kataan did not gave you a technical analysis of their civilization; they gave you a life to live and remember. It is how they chose to be passed down unto history, and I doubt the Borg will do them justice.
    Edit: Altough you could argue that "The unrelenting force pursuing the protagonist to steal information that has been implanted into his brain" is a repeat of Farscape's Season 2 plot.
    Last edited by Cikomyr; 2012-11-04 at 07:39 AM.

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Good point. Picard's character arc regarding his assimilation and dealing with it was better done, but again rather underplayed. I cannot believe only SISKO grudges him for heading the borg's invasion fleet an nearly annihilating earth.

    ... damn it, now you make me wanna merge these two elements together. Imagine if the Borg learned of Picard's experience with the Probe, and wants to assimilate him so they can forever preserve the knowledge about that Lost Civilization. They'd think that this knowledge is important (any civilization are important, in their own way), and they believe said knowledge will lost with Picard.

    So they hunt him down specifically, for he is the only remnant of this civilization. Hell, Picard could actually be tempted between preserving the knowledge of his lost world forever, or losing his individuality..

    And then, you'd have Data show up and give HIM a Patrick Stewart speech:



    Edit: Altough you could argue that "The unrelenting force pursuing the protagonist to steal information that has been implanted into his brain" is a repeat of Farscape's Season 2 plot.
    Yes, there is a solid set of episodes dealing with the ramifications of locutis, he tries to retire, goes home to visit with his crotchety brother in france, the works. But its like, once he goes back to enterprise, aside from a few random comments from time to time, its like it never happened. Something like living an entire lifetime in a half hour, or being assimilated SHOULD have some sort of permanent effect on your personality. Even something as simple as a visible phobia about the borg would do, but I dont think picard has even that much of a permanent change.

    I LIKE to see a gradual change in characters as a series goes on. DS9 is the best example of this, you can clearly see the personalities of the main characters changing as the series flows on. I dont think anyone is the same in the last season as they were in season 1, in some cases not even close. Even in an episodic series like tng there should be room for real character growth. Instead its treated more like an entire series of filler arcs, where none of it counts as canon, none of it gets mentioned again, and none of it has any lasting effect on the main storyline. Some changes do stick, I will grant you. But mainly they are few and far between.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    BlackDragon

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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I LIKE to see a gradual change in characters as a series goes on. DS9 is the best example of this, you can clearly see the personalities of the main characters changing as the series flows on. I dont think anyone is the same in the last season as they were in season 1, in some cases not even close. Even in an episodic series like tng there should be room for real character growth. Instead its treated more like an entire series of filler arcs, where none of it counts as canon, none of it gets mentioned again, and none of it has any lasting effect on the main storyline. Some changes do stick, I will grant you. But mainly they are few and far between.
    Not only character changing, evolving, but also they are put into different perspectives. After all, this is what "Lower Decks" was all about; showing exactly how true Titans the main cast are.

    SFDebris addressed this a bit in his review of "Field of Fire", where Bashir came off as a mentor figure to Ezri.

    BASHIR. The young doctor who in the first episode was greener than Aldebaran whiskey, obnoxious, womanizing and arrogant all around, probably even more of a tenderfeet than Simmons in "Firefly".

    Had became this hardened, warm, powerful and yet still very human figure. His genetical engineering never took away the humanity from the man.

    The only character you could argue lacked deep development in the course of the series was O'Brian, and that's because he was too busy being the universe's chewtoy.

  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cikomyr View Post
    Not only character changing, evolving, but also they are put into different perspectives. After all, this is what "Lower Decks" was all about; showing exactly how true Titans the main cast are.

    SFDebris addressed this a bit in his review of "Field of Fire", where Bashir came off as a mentor figure to Ezri.

    BASHIR. The young doctor who in the first episode was greener than Aldebaran whiskey, obnoxious, womanizing and arrogant all around, probably even more of a tenderfeet than Simmons in "Firefly".

    Had became this hardened, warm, powerful and yet still very human figure. His genetical engineering never took away the humanity from the man.

    The only character you could argue lacked deep development in the course of the series was O'Brian, and that's because he was too busy being the universe's chewtoy.

    I tend to think it was more because he came to the series prehardened. Wasnt he one of the grizzled veterans from the start of the series or something?
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Traab View Post
    I tend to think it was more because he came to the series prehardened. Wasnt he one of the grizzled veterans from the start of the series or something?
    Indeed. I wanted to bring that up, but it still doesn't make any sense. Sisko was also a grizzled veteran. Picard have known so much in his time as captaining the Stargazer (btw, what happened in his time between losing the Stargazer and taking command of the Enterprise?!).

    Yet O'Brian doesn't evolve beyond his relationship with Bashir. He never comes to term with the projection of his self-hatred unto the Cardassians (you may think he did so in The Wounded, but I see it more as overcoming the flaw, now dealing with it).

    He is an veteran soldier, family man who likes manly thing. You can describe this at the beginning of the series as well as in the ending of the series. No evolution whatsoever, sadly. You could make the argument that the DS9 Relaunch did more to help improve his character when

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    He accepts to follow his wife to go live on Cardassia, as she receives a big promotion and accept to compromise his own career for her sake, just as she did when he got appointed to DS9


    Hell, you could make the argument that KEIKO had more character development than O'Brien. If only he had slept with Preggy Kira, that would have made things interesting!!

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Too be honest, obrien seemed to be more of a secondary character to me. One that faded into the background as time went on. He was mr fixit while the station was royally screwed up, he then started to kind of be the tagalong friend, or the guy who answers questions about engineering, and he just seems, I dunno, unimportant to the overall series somehow. He is more than an extra, but less than a full blown main cast member.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    Translation: "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe."

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama View Post
    Traab is yelling everything that I'm thinking already.
    "If you don't get those cameras out of my face, I'm gonna go 8.6 on the Richter scale with gastric emissions that'll clear this room."

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    O'Brien was unchanging because he was the Everyman. He's the friendly guy whose always there to fix your dishwasher when it breaks, knows how to stop a drain, and with a couple of paper clips and an Exacto blade can fix most anything. He's a major stabilizing force in the series that allows other people to play off of and grow. Honestly, characters don't need to grow to be realistic. They can be stable, well-rounded characters, which is exactly what he was.

    And as a side note, mention was made of how Deep Space Nine is a plagiarized copy of Babylon 5. This is something that Babylon 5 fans have been repeating to themselves to explain why Babylon 5 wasn't the breakout hit that TNG was since it's inception, but it's not true. Yes, JMS provided the story bible to CBS, and they ultimately did turn him down to develop Deep Space 9. And there are similar names and a lot of actors are used on both series. But most of the production of Deep Space Nine was already well underway when JMS provided his Bible, and looking at the plans we can see that many of the "suspicious similarities" between the two series aren't really similarities at all.

    Just to toss off an example, Fivers love to say that Deep Space Nine's first officer, Kira Nerys, is a ripoff of Babylon 5's first officer Susan Ivanova. In point of fact, the original plan for Deep Space Nine was to make Ro Laren the first officer, and Ro Laren was an established character on TNG before B5's first episode came out. When Michelle Forbes, the actress who played Ro Laren, didn't want to sign on to a six-year television deal, they created an Expy of her in the form of Kira Nerys. What's more, the only way Kira and Ivanova could be considered clones of one another is if you don't know the difference between Lawful Good and Chaotic Good. A story wherein Susan Ivanova learns that sometimes being a good bureaucrat means standing up for the system and making dissenters hate you in the name of the greater good wouldn't make a lick of sense, because Susan has spent her entire adult life in the military; tolerating dissent just isn't done. By contrast, that same story revolving around Kira Nerys forms the A-plot of one of Deep Space Nine's best first season episodes.

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    I've been watching TNG reruns recently, and

    Quote Originally Posted by 0Megabyte View Post
    Episode 201: The Child - Pretty horrid, when you think about it. Troy is impregnated against her will, and it's treated with all the sensitivity of a pie in the face.
    Oh God, that episode was horrible.

    I really hope that alien didn't go away thinking that that was an acceptible way to behave towards people. Or that anything it experienced taught it anything meaningful about human interactions.

    (Also, it was lucky for it that it existed in the Trek-verse, and impregnated Troi. In another reality, it could have tried it on Ellan Ripley).

    Episode 212: The Royale - Incredibly boring. the crew finds a thingie in space that does a thingie and some of them get trapped in the thingie and I dunno, stuff happens I guess? I can't seem to pay any attention to it. It's like a run-of-the-mill Voyager episode, but sillier, somehow.
    Is that the one with the planet based on a bad novel? (Literally - as in an Alien Force had constructed a world for a lost astronaut, based on a terrible novel he had in his ship). Worst. Planet-based-on-a-specific-aspect-of-human-culture. Ever. And definitely the worst episode based on that trope, ever.

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wardog View Post
    Is that the one with the planet based on a bad novel? (Literally - as in an Alien Force had constructed a world for a lost astronaut, based on a terrible novel he had in his ship). Worst. Planet-based-on-a-specific-aspect-of-human-culture. Ever. And definitely the worst episode based on that trope, ever.
    But it's a tried and true Star Trek episode concept! TOS had the planet based on gangsters and another planet based on Nazis!
    Last edited by Joran; 2012-11-09 at 07:17 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joran View Post
    But it's a tried and true Star Trek episode concept! TOS had the planet based on gangsters and another planet based on Nazis!
    " was stranded on a planet, Just me and Spock
    We met a nasty nazi alien who locked our asses up
    We found a hunk of crystal and a metal piece of bed
    We made a laser phaser gun and shot him in the head..."
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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  17. - Top - End - #47
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    TNG didn't get good until they stopped emulating TOS and started a more natural feel. Doing more day-to-day things like playing poker, having interpersonal relationships which weren't necessarily melodramatic, having people actually doing their job and that being interesting, and not sending Picard out on every away mission pointlessly. TNG took the grandious space opera themes and softened them, they didn't fight battles or face life-and-death situations every week -- people in TNG have families, and occasionally life was actually boring, or seemed that way. It simply took time to get that way.

    The "planet of the hats" idea was thankfully reigned in with Trek writers mid-90's -- Voyager and Enterprise still had a few in their less successful moments, whereas DS9 brought depth into alien societies by its very nature.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Funnily enough, the Child, the Royale, and the Outrageuous Okana didn't bother me as much as some (though the former I found uncomfortable, even as a kid in the eighties); the one that really gets my goat and I find I just can't watch was Justice (which, was again, one of the very early episodes). Something about that episode just really grated on me; the mostly-naked promiscuous population, the ludricrous "death for any crime, where crime means 'accidental' damage", the alien-space-god fraktard... It all just repelled me. I hated that episode.

    I think the only other episode in the whole of ST I found as objectionable was the DS9 one where a recurring character (not naming names in case of spoilers) got his memory wiped, because I consider that worse than murder and hypocrasy of the highest order, more so given the circumstances.

    (As you can imagine, I wasn't amused when they espoused that as being preferable a punishment to execution in B5, either, but at least in B5 a) it was a punishment for serious crimes like murder, b) there were people with different opinions (Lichemaster bless dear Mr. Garibaldi), and c) they showed what a fracking horrid mess you can get out of it when you do that and do it wrong.)
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-11-09 at 08:52 PM.

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    I had much the same reaction to the DS9 episode in question, but the TNG era one that bothered me most was the one where a planet started worshiping Picard.

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