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    Default Does this tactic work by RAW?

    So I'm slowly going through Three Faces of Evil with a scalpel and making the adjustments need to give my higher level players a challenge for this place.

    There is a room with fanatic worshipers. Now the scaling advice says just give them levels of fighter, but I had something a little more sadistic and appropriate.

    Could I give them an Alchemist fire in each hand, have them charge towards the party, and as a free action drop the potions at their feet. The result of this I assume would be an automatic 1 damage to each person and them selves in a 5 ft radius.

    Now my other question is, since these are fanatics, I plan on this being suicidal. If they generate an attack of opportunity and will most likely die in one hit, do they drop the Alchemist fire at their feet, for the same effect?
    Last edited by killem2; 2012-10-29 at 11:05 AM.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by killem2 View Post
    There is a room with fanatic worshipers.
    I misread that as "fanfic worshippers". But thanks to my cultural training, that's much scarier.

    Quote Originally Posted by killem2 View Post
    since these are fanatics, I plan on this being suicidal. If they generate an attack of opportunity and will most likely die in one hit, do they drop the Alchemist fire at their feet, for the same effect?
    You do drop whatever's in your hands when you fall unconscious, including when you die. Looks RAW from here.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by killem2 View Post
    Could I give them an Alchemist fire in each hand, have them charge towards the party, and as a free action drop the potions at their feet. The result of this I assume would be an automatic 1 damage to each person and them selves in a 5 ft radius.

    Now my other question is, since these are fanatics, I plan on this being suicidal. If they generate an attack of opportunity and will most likely die in one hit, do they drop the Alchemist fire at their feet, for the same effect?
    Yes you can drop as free action, but dropping flask doesn't say they explode.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Yes you can drop as free action, but dropping flask doesn't say they explode.
    If you use something that is considered a splash weapon, the rules state that "A splash weapon is a ranged weapon that breaks on impact" so dropping would cause it to break, triggering the effect. I think the key difference here is a substance in a container designed to break on impact is different than a normal container taking falling damage.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Well, you could just strap them in vests lined with highly explosive alchemical compounds, give them a few levels in rogue, and send them running at an unaware group....

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Our just have them all chug Elixers of Death Throes, a relatively cheap single use consumable wondrous item. Have them labeled as "Potions of Fanatical Power".
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by killem2 View Post
    Could I give them an Alchemist fire in each hand, have them charge towards the party, and as a free action drop the potions at their feet. The result of this I assume would be an automatic 1 damage to each person and them selves in a 5 ft radius.
    Why can't they just throw the flasks at the PCs' squares? Ranged touch attack vs. AC 5, and they're not guaranteed to die.

    Suicide is cute thematic, but not always necessary.


    EDIT: Fine, I changed it.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-10-29 at 12:42 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Why can't they just throw the flasks at the PCs' squares? Ranged touch attack vs. AC 5, and they're not guaranteed to die.

    Suicide is cute, but not always necessary.
    Outside of this context, this is a really disturbing quote....
    Last edited by Dusk Eclipse; 2012-10-29 at 12:01 PM.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    It seems like an iffy ruling on if they break. To me, it seems like they would, I mean they are flasks, you don't want them sturdy enough to resist breaking.

    The suicide is not needed I agree, but it is for the flavor. Besides, their entire purpose is basically to just take up time for guards to get into place, they are expendable.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Throwing the flasks at the player's squares + using the elixir of death throes seems like the most fitting, most optimal and most sadistic use.
    Also, tanglefoot bags are awesome.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    If you REALLY want the most bang for your psychotically devoted henchman, might I recommend the Pathfinder Implant Bomb feat, either as-is or for inspiration.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Starbuck_II View Post
    Yes you can drop as free action, but dropping flask doesn't say they explode.
    A glass flask has 1 hit point and a hardness of 1. When its owner dies, consider it dropped from a height of, oh, let's say, 5'. It should take 1d3 damage (half of 1d6) - a roll of 2 or higher breaks it.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    A glass flask has 1 hit point and a hardness of 1. When its owner dies, consider it dropped from a height of, oh, let's say, 5'. It should take 1d3 damage (half of 1d6) - a roll of 2 or higher breaks it.
    From the SRD:

    The basic rule is simple: 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6.
    Falling less than 10 feet does not deal damage to anything per RAW; the DM is eligible to fudge the rules, but he/she did say "Does this tactic work by RAW?" in the title.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    Falling less than 10 feet does not deal damage to anything per RAW
    This one goes directly to the Dysfunctional Rules Thread

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Throwing the flasks at the player's squares + using the elixir of death throes seems like the most fitting, most optimal and most sadistic use.
    I keep seeing this reference to 'elixir of death throes' and am wondering if someone can provide a source. Otherwise, since the spell 'death throes' in SC is a 5th level spell and Brew Potion only works on spells up to 3rd level, this would not normally work.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner View Post
    I keep seeing this reference to 'elixir of death throes' and am wondering if someone can provide a source. Otherwise, since the spell 'death throes' in SC is a 5th level spell and Brew Potion only works on spells up to 3rd level, this would not normally work.
    'Elixir' is generally the term the rules use for 'a potion-like item created as a Wondrous Item.' Strictly speaking it's a custom magic item, but it's also one of the most straightforward and least abusive ways of using those rules, similar to making scrolls of assorted non-PHB spells.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    So it's basically a potion created from a spell that specifically is not allowed to be made into a potion. Not a first time the item creation rules have been abused, and not the last.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    So it's basically a potion created from a spell that specifically is not allowed to be made into a potion. Not a first time the item creation rules have been abused, and not the last.
    Not only is the spell higher than 3rd level and thus ineligible for potion-crafting, it would also cost 1125gp for 9d8 (40.5 average) Force damage, single-use. That's a really bad deal, considering you can just have minions read Explosive Runes for free and deal 6d6 (21 average) Force damage. As a 3rd level spell. For free. And you don't even need to worry about the PCs disabling them nonlethally and wasting your gold and effort.

    Using the same spell slot as the Death Throes, you can slap Empower onto the Explosive Runes for 31.5 average damage. Again, for no cost beyond the loser devoted follower you just wasted. On that thought, just use summons to deliver the payload, and spare your cultists for another day.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    So it's basically a potion created from a spell that
    specifically is not allowed to be made into a potion. Not a first time the item creation rules have been abused, and not the last.
    Elixirs may look like potions, but they are not potions.
    Elixirs are Wondrous Items and so follow a different set of rules.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    I do understand there's a RAW justification. That doesn't make it any less ridiculous.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Depending on the level of your henchmen, they could always take Fiery Ki Defense and run in to grapple the PCs like little flaming saibamen. Not quite suicidal, but then again the only better for a fanatical cult member than martyring himself is getting the job done without dying. Of course being NPCs, their fate is to become a charred corpse regardless....these are Adventurers we're talking about after all.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Novawurmson View Post
    From the SRD:



    Falling less than 10 feet does not deal damage to anything per RAW; the DM is eligible to fudge the rules, but he/she did say "Does this tactic work by RAW?" in the title.
    While you are correct, damage is actually not required here. All splash weapons "break on impact" by RAW, therefore the exact height/damage of the fall is irrelevant.

    "Impact" is not defined anywhere in the rules, thus it is up to the DM to decide whether a given situation qualifies.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    "Impact" is not defined anywhere in the rules, thus it is up to the DM to decide whether a given situation qualifies.
    DM: "As you reach into your pack, your hand impacts against a flask of alchemical fire..."

    PC: "$#!&...I hate it when that happens!"
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner View Post
    DM: "As you reach into your pack, your hand impacts against a flask of alchemical fire..."

    PC: "$#!&...I hate it when that happens!"
    Considering some horror stories I've heard about terrible DMs, I am sure that something like this has happened to someone.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by BowStreetRunner View Post
    DM: "As you reach into your pack, your hand impacts against a flask of alchemical fire..."

    PC: "$#!&...I hate it when that happens!"
    As with all DM interpretations, Rule -1 plays a key role. (Everyone is there to have fun, not just you.)
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    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Give each of them a craft contingent maximized Maw of Chaos. The mook get's in range, triggers it, and the group get's boomed.

    It's tons of fun to load mooks down with Craft Contingent spells set to trigger if they die, take damage, fall unconscious, etc.
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    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
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    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    Give each of them a craft contingent maximized Maw of Chaos. The mook get's in range, triggers it, and the group get's boomed.

    It's tons of fun to load mooks down with Craft Contingent spells set to trigger if they die, take damage, fall unconscious, etc.
    ... let's try this again, but this time without the one-round TPK, all right?
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    ... let's try this again, but this time without the one-round TPK, all right?
    Acid Fogs or something.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by tuggyne View Post
    ... let's try this again, but this time without the one-round TPK, all right?
    *bah*
    One round TPK's are just fine. I didn't hit the mooks with Magic Aura or Nondetection so Detect Magic or Arcane Sight will show that they are highly magical. PC's that get in close contact with highly magical individuals without taking precautions deserve to be boomed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyndmyr View Post
    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
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    Tippy=Win
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
    Quote Originally Posted by Immabozo View Post
    Tippy, I knew, in the back of my mind, that you would have the answer. Why? Cause you win. That's why.
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Alright. I finally surrender. Tippy, you do in fact equal win. You have claimed the position of being my idol.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Keld Denar View Post
    Our just have them all chug Elixers of Death Throes, a relatively cheap single use consumable wondrous item. Have them labeled as "Potions of Fanatical Power".
    Can you tell me where to find this please?
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