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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    So, while people are pointing out that if you drop it when you die, they will break, I would like to argue from a physics standpoint that they wouldn't have the same effect. Do understand that you could probably pull off what you want from RAW. (I know, RAW and physics get along about as well as matter and antimatter, but I'll try it anyway.)

    Anyway, have you ever dropped a water balloon vs. thrown a water balloon? You'll notice the thrown one has a MUCH larger splash. Kinetic energy and all that. If I drop a glass vial full of liquid, it may break, but it's not going to splash everyone in a 5 ft radius. Hell, it won't even FILL my 5 foot square.
    Last edited by Eugenides; 2012-10-29 at 09:16 PM.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Why stop at two little vials?

    - Carry in a flask or other larger container for more alchemist fire!
    - Strap a whole bunch of vials to yourself and have a friendly mage cast shatter on you when you're in position!
    - Modify slings to be able to launch globes of alchemist fire!
    - Have a friendly mage cast enlarge person on you and carry in two kegs instead of two vials!

    You get the idea.

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kane0 View Post
    Why stop at two little vials?
    - Carry in a flask or other larger container for more alchemist fire!
    - Strap a whole bunch of vials to yourself and have a friendly mage cast shatter on you when you're in position!
    Interesting use of the word friendly.

    For bonus points give the suicide-mooks evasion, from two levels of rogues perhaps, so that they can dodge their own conflagration.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenides View Post
    Anyway, have you ever dropped a water balloon vs. thrown a water balloon? You'll notice the thrown one has a MUCH larger splash. Kinetic energy and all that. If I drop a glass vial full of liquid, it may break, but it's not going to splash everyone in a 5 ft radius. Hell, it won't even FILL my 5 foot square.
    And there's a good chance the balloon won't break at all if you just drop it without applying more force (like with throwing). With a glass container, it would depend on the surface it falls on.


    But it's unlikely to splash 5ft if every direction if you just drop it without really throwing it. Which is why I suggested just chucking the vials instead, and preferring to use summons to deliver the Death Throes.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenides View Post
    So, while people are pointing out that if you drop it when you die, they will break, I would like to argue from a physics standpoint that they wouldn't have the same effect. Do understand that you could probably pull off what you want from RAW. (I know, RAW and physics get along about as well as matter and antimatter, but I'll try it anyway.)

    Anyway, have you ever dropped a water balloon vs. thrown a water balloon? You'll notice the thrown one has a MUCH larger splash. Kinetic energy and all that. If I drop a glass vial full of liquid, it may break, but it's not going to splash everyone in a 5 ft radius. Hell, it won't even FILL my 5 foot square.
    Teensy flaw in your logic - if that glass vial full of liquid contained nitroglycerin, then it certainly would affect a 5ft. square if not more. Splash weapons like Alchemist's Fire typically contain unstable substances to begin with, so the energy of the impact itself is not the only energy at play here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Why can't they just throw the flasks at the PCs' squares? Ranged touch attack vs. AC 5, and they're not guaranteed to die.
    Well the thing is, simply being caught on fire (a la alchemist's fire) is unlikely to kill them in a single hit. They are more likely to take some damage, then catch fire. The benefit here is that, the next round, they can try and grapple their enemies, but now with the benefit of being on fire, so that simply being in contact will deal damage to their foes (even as it damages themselves). They can then sit there, struggling with a person that might be on fire themselves, until they die, at which point their still flaming corpse falls at the person they were grappling, ensuring the person will take at least one more round of 1d6 damage before getting out of there. As suicidal tactics go, it is both strangely effective, utterly suicidal (as per the AoO is generates), and demonstrates singular devotion to their cause in their ability to continue grappling even as they burn to death. (More effective w/ one level of Barbarian on each cultist)
    This is also both hectic, unnerving, and particularly thematic for the players, since the situation goes from fighting off bombs that deal minor damage, to something more akin to frantically fighting off fanatical, burning zombies, desperately slashing back to keep themselves from getting dog piled, and burnt to death.
    Last edited by Twilightwyrm; 2012-10-30 at 01:13 AM.
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  7. - Top - End - #37
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Teensy flaw in your logic - if that glass vial full of liquid contained nitroglycerin, then it certainly would affect a 5ft. square if not more. Splash weapons like Alchemist's Fire typically contain unstable substances to begin with, so the energy of the impact itself is not the only energy at play here.
    While I see where you're coming from, I feel that if merely dropping it would set it off, then so would being struck in melee if you had it in your gear, or doing a tumble check, or being tripped, struck by a trap etc...

    Though, to be fair, I had always thought of alchemist's fire more as...napalm than an explosive. Nitroglycerin is specifically an extremely unstable explosive. You wouldn't just carry it around. Napalm, on the other hand, is a sticky, burning substance that doesn't really explode so much as more tenaciously burn. You can shake it all you want however, making it ideal for transport.

    To back this up:
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB pg 128
    Alchemist's Fire is a sticky, adhesive substance that ignites when exposed to air.
    This doesn't seem to be a nitro-glycerin typed explosive, or an explosive at all. It seems to be more like a liquid that you splash on people to set them on fire, but a fire that's nasty and hard to put out.

    Edit: It's also a splash weapon, which indicates that it splashes, not explodes.
    Last edited by Eugenides; 2012-10-30 at 04:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by invaderk2 View Post
    Can you tell me where to find this please?
    It's not an already published thing. It's a custom magic item using the love potion or elixir of fire breath from the DMG as a template.

    Should look something like this:

    Feats: Craft wondrous item, and brew potion

    Spells: death throes (duh)

    Market Price: 2250gp (SL X CL X potion constant) (5X9X50)

    Cost to create: 1125gp, 90xp
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-10-30 at 04:56 AM.
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  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Elixirs don't require Brew Potion, and your price looks wrong - but you might actually be correct.

    Examples, from the DMG:
    Elixir of Vision (True Seeing, 250 gp, Cleric 5 or Wiz/Sorc 6, CL 2)
    Elixir of Truth (Zone of Truth, 500 gp, Cleric 2, CL 5)

    Costings from DMG Table 7-33 p285, Spell Effect, Single use, Spell completion
    Elixir of Vision 25x5x2
    Elixir of Truth 25x2x5
    ERROR (in the DMG)
    I think that the cost multiplier should be 50x for use activated in which case the Elixir of Vision is a bargain.
    BTW: Nothing in the Errata about this.
    Last edited by nedz; 2012-10-30 at 08:39 AM.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenides View Post
    While I see where you're coming from, I feel that if merely dropping it would set it off, then so would being struck in melee if you had it in your gear, or doing a tumble check, or being tripped, struck by a trap etc...

    Though, to be fair, I had always thought of alchemist's fire more as...napalm than an explosive. Nitroglycerin is specifically an extremely unstable explosive. You wouldn't just carry it around. Napalm, on the other hand, is a sticky, burning substance that doesn't really explode so much as more tenaciously burn. You can shake it all you want however, making it ideal for transport.

    To back this up:

    This doesn't seem to be a nitro-glycerin typed explosive, or an explosive at all. It seems to be more like a liquid that you splash on people to set them on fire, but a fire that's nasty and hard to put out.

    Edit: It's also a splash weapon, which indicates that it splashes, not explodes.
    Just because it's not explosive doesn't mean the reaction needs a lot of external force to spread quickly. For all we know, it's hot enough to briefly ignite the very air once released. For all its similarities to napalm, it's still a fantastic substance, after all.

    As for it not going off in your backpack, that's a gameplay convenience, not a scientific statement on the strength of the flask or the potency of its reaction. We don't have rules for scrolls ripping in our bags, choking on a hastily chugged potion in the middle of a fight, or our cloaks of resistance getting caught on doornails either; it keeps things simple.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    As for it not going off in your backpack, that's a gameplay convenience, not a scientific statement on the strength of the flask or the potency of its reaction. We don't have rules for scrolls ripping in our bags, choking on a hastily chugged potion in the middle of a fight, or our cloaks of resistance getting caught on doornails either; it keeps things simple.
    We do, however, have rules for dropping things. Nowhere does it say it breaks, to my knowledge.
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Well if you want suicidal... And cost is no option... AND you want to scare the bajeebus out of your players....

    Bag of Holding + Portable Hole

    Have the first minion have this (the rest can have whatever you want from the previous post) and have him run into a group of NPCs that are with the party... The are erased from the material plane as the rest of the fanatics charge in. The party will now respect the minions fanatical attacks and be careful... Only the low Int warrior will rush in (or that jerk who thinks you have to kill everyone that isn't a PC...)

    Now if you want a TPK then yeah give them all these items. If not then one minion should be fine to get the point across.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by The Random NPC View Post
    We do, however, have rules for dropping things. Nowhere does it say it breaks, to my knowledge.
    ALL splash weapons break on impact - this has been quoted several times upthread. However that must be justified to make sense (the vials are made of sugar glass maybe?) the RAW is clear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by TopCheese View Post
    Please note I'm an evil bastard sometimes...
    I still like the idea of horses (summoned by Mount for the duration) with Explosive Runes banners on the sides (so they can be read from far away) amounting to a magical terrorist attack. No suspects, no body to cast Speak With Dead on, no loot, nothing. Just 6d6 points of nigh-irresistible damage, and lots of casualties.

    EDIT: Also requires nothing more than a 5th level caster and some way to remotely expose the banner in a crowd, like using the "clothlike substance" option on Shrink Item, then hooking it onto the horses' saddle.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-10-30 at 02:24 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    ALL splash weapons break on impact - this has been quoted several times upthread. However that must be justified to make sense (the vials are made of sugar glass maybe?) the RAW is clear.
    You keep flip-flopping. You try to hold me to precise chemistry, but when I point out other flaws in the physics behind your system, you eschew it with convenience and RAW, which I had already pointed out wouldn't be happy with my observation.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenides View Post
    You keep flip-flopping. You try to hold me to precise chemistry, but when I point out other flaws in the physics behind your system, you eschew it with convenience and RAW, which I had already pointed out wouldn't be happy with my observation.
    Then why are you making it? This is a RAW thread; arguments along the lines of "why would they break from just any impact" and "why would they splash if not thrown forcefully" and "why don't they break in your pack when attacked" may be logical, but nevertheless have no place here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Then why are you making it? This is a RAW thread; arguments along the lines of "why would they break from just any impact" and "why would they splash if not thrown forcefully" and "why don't they break in your pack when attacked" may be logical, but nevertheless have no place here.
    To add to the conversation? The question had been answered. No need to get so grumpy and aggressive.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eugenides View Post
    To add to the conversation? The question had been answered. No need to get so grumpy and aggressive.
    Apologies if I came off that way, it wasn't my intention at all.

    But I wasn't flip-flopping - merely pointing out that even from a scientific standpoint, the unique behavior of alchemist's fire could be reasonable depending on what exactly the stuff is made out of. (In other words, the simplest answer to the question "why doesn't it act like napalm?" is "it's not napalm.")
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    Then why are you making it? This is a RAW thread; arguments along the lines of "why would they break from just any impact" and "why would they splash if not thrown forcefully" and "why don't they break in your pack when attacked" may be logical, but nevertheless have no place here.
    Because, logic and physics are all we have if RAW doesn't define a term. Obviously, break on impact means it breaks whenever its thrown, but we don't have a RAW definition of "impact" that either restricts it to "only at the terminal point of throws" nor do we have a definition that expands it to "any drop or fall including those that would not normally do damage" so our only options are logic or dealing fall damage to the flask, but falls under 10ft only do damage at DM's discretion, in other words, when the DM thinks logic, physics etc dictate it.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    Because, logic and physics are all we have if RAW doesn't define a term. Obviously, break on impact means it breaks whenever its thrown, but we don't have a RAW definition of "impact" that either restricts it to "only at the terminal point of throws" nor do we have a definition that expands it to "any drop or fall including those that would not normally do damage" so our only options are logic or dealing fall damage to the flask, but falls under 10ft only do damage at DM's discretion, in other words, when the DM thinks logic, physics etc dictate it.
    I don't really see the difficulty though - a 5-foot fall or even 2-foot fall onto a hard surface would logically count as "impact" to most reasonable DMs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Psyren, I hearby appoint you defender of catgirls.

    Everyone else, please won't you think of the catgirls?
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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    I didn't hit the mooks with Magic Aura or Nondetection so Detect Magic or Arcane Sight will show that they are highly magical.
    You need to be CL11 to take Craft Contingent Spell and Magic Aura is a 1st-level spell that lasts 1 day/level, so why wouldn't a wizard of that level add that extra layer of trickery? Or even employ low-level wizards to renew the Magic Aura spells as necessary?

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
    I don't really see the difficulty though - a 5-foot fall or even 2-foot fall onto a hard surface would logically count as "impact" to most reasonable DMs.
    I guess I'm not a reasonable GM then and neither is the OP since he asked about the RAW of it. Seems like a coin flip kinda situation to me, unless you got especially fragile vials for specifically this purpose, but then we're homebrewing fragile vials rather than using RAW.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hand_of_Vecna View Post
    I guess I'm not a reasonable GM then and neither is the OP since he asked about the RAW of it. Seems like a coin flip kinda situation to me, unless you got especially fragile vials for specifically this purpose, but then we're homebrewing fragile vials rather than using RAW.
    Apples and oranges - he was asking if there was an explicit rule that covered his situation, not if dropping a glass bottle containing magic napalm would be reasonable. (Obviously he thinks it is, since he planned the encounter that way.)

    How fragile the vials are depends, again, on how you define impact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    First, please don't start threads with ideas you don't support just to see what reactions you get. That's almost the definition of trolling.

    Second, the whole "blue text" thing is not a forum rule or even a recommended procedure. If someone wants to do it in their own posts, fine, but everyone should stop telling people that they "need to" or "should have" posted in blue just because they're being sarcastic/ironic/whatever.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutremaine View Post
    You need to be CL11 to take Craft Contingent Spell and Magic Aura is a 1st-level spell that lasts 1 day/level, so why wouldn't a wizard of that level add that extra layer of trickery? Or even employ low-level wizards to renew the Magic Aura spells as necessary?
    I assume because then there would be no reasonable precaution the PCs could take to be aware of the threat, and the game would devolve into session after session of divinations the PCs take before walking out of the demiplane, to determine the exact events of the entire three weeks ahead of them. In play, it would be functionally identical to saying:

    "An ordinary person walks up to you, no magic, no Evil, he doesn't detect as anything..." [rolls dice]

    "Rocks fall you die."
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    RAW? Naw, but sometimes you have to as a DM just say "screw the rules, this makes more sense." Remember, just as alignment isn't a straitjacket, neither are the rules.
    If something doesn't make sense to you, you're allowed to work around it as long as you don't have a rules lawyer ready to point out why he should be allowed to "play" as Punpun.
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    It's not just the DM's story and it's not just the players' story, it's everybody's story and a way to have a good time.

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    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sutremaine View Post
    You need to be CL11 to take Craft Contingent Spell and Magic Aura is a 1st-level spell that lasts 1 day/level, so why wouldn't a wizard of that level add that extra layer of trickery? Or even employ low-level wizards to renew the Magic Aura spells as necessary?
    Because I feel like giving the PC's a chance. If they have Detect Magic or Arcane Sight up (like they should) then they should notice the odd auras and take precautions. If the mooks are protected from those divination's then extreme paranoia becomes necessary. While that is fine with me, most people find the level of paranoia I expect from my players as standard to be a bit too much. Hence I posted the easy mode version.

    If the DM feels like playing Craft Contingent to it's potential then it's down right nasty.
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    Clearly, this is because Tippy equals Win.
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    Wow... Tippy, you equal win.
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    This post contains 100% Tippy thought. May contain dangerous amounts of ludicrousness and/or awesomeness.

  28. - Top - End - #58
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    Nov 2011

    Default Re: Does this tactic work by RAW?

    Wow guys, this thread turned out to be amazing. I think I will just rule 0 it up. :) It's not THAT much off and I think overall it'll make for great flavor :).
    Path of the Nefarious: A Way of the Wicked Journal.
    Please take a look at the adventures of my group going through Fire Mountain Games's Way of the Wicked, An evil based Pathfinder Compatible adventure path.
    http://d20evil.blogspot.com/

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