Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 104
  1. - Top - End - #61
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2010

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    And Int 13 wizards who are fascinated with summoning.
    And Int 24 wizards who specialize in force spells.
    And everything in between. Just like in .... wait for it ... wait for it ... the real world.
    However, in most professions the majority of competent people do tend to gravitate toward what's widely accepted as 'effective'

  2. - Top - End - #62
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBlades View Post
    However, in most professions the majority of competent people do tend to gravitate toward what's widely accepted as 'effective'
    Again, you would think so, but real life shows us that it's not a play-by-the-numbers game and all possibilities are open.

    Kantolin brought the example of teachers. Teaches would not exist, in fact, if life was a play-by-the-numbers game. But the fact is they do, and most chose their career based on 'inefficient' decision-making factors such as "I like working with kids". Woefully inefficient, and yet, smart people do become teachers. Amazing.

    And if real life can be played out this way, why the heck can't fictional life?

  3. - Top - End - #63
    Banned
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Sydnah, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    And yet in the real world there aren't many people trying to become lawyers by doing degrees in gardening!

    And they try to get into a prestigious university as opposed to a nonprestigious one!

    And they do extracurricular activities to improve their chances, and seek information about how to get into the field and interview techniques and the whole nine yards!


    It's almost like people who want to succeed put effort into researching the best techniques in order to succeed!

    You are assuming that there is an equal distribution of every option - science, specifically psychology, neuroscience, and especially, sociology, say you are very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very, very wrong!


    People in the real world make sub-par choices, that is true, but MOST of the people at least ATTEMPT to make above-par choices. Your argument that there would be just as many wizards focusing on Knock as there would be focusing on Polymorph or metamagicked blasting or conjuration is ludicrous. Humans DO fail to make the most optimum choices - they get obsessed with something that is sub-par, or think something sub-par is actually amazing for irrational reasons - but you're acting like that is universal, when in fact, MOST people aim for the top, and take techniques and methods useful to get there.

    Sure, not everyone is going to be an optimized red wizard circle magic incantatrix sublime chord with 240 CL and free metamagic using persisted extended super buff spells to be immune to everything and a god of war - in the same way that there are only a few CEOs of large companies in the world. But people are going to WANT to be those wizards. And so they are going to do, if not that exact thing with the same success rate, similar things.

    The real world is a hodgepodge of competing beliefs about success and the 'best' thing to do largely because if we make wrong choices we don't get eaten by an umber hulk.

    Living in a world where that happens tends to crystallize things for most people.

    EDIT: In response to your latest post - I am assuming that most wizards who go FIGHTING MONSTERS would have KILLING MONSTERS and SURVIVING as their goals. There are totally wizards whose goals are 'BE REALLY GOOD AT RESEARCH' or 'BE REALLY GOOD AT DIVINING' but, y'know, NOT A LOT OF THOSE GUYS BECOME ADVENTURERS.

    THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BECOME ADVENTURERS DO THINGS TO BE GOOD AT ADVENTURING. Turning up with a guy who wants to be an adventurer but has ZERO abilities or skills to do with, y'know, ADVENTURING, is the thing that you ought to be 'justifying' - turning up with someone who wants to be an adventurer and is good at adventuring doesn't seem like something you need to justify at ****ing all.
    Last edited by Rejakor; 2012-10-31 at 04:09 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #64
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Hawaii
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    And they try to get into a prestigious university as opposed to a nonprestigious one!
    Lots of people try to get into less prestigious universities. These may be for 'good' reasons (I don't have the money and didn't get a good enough scholarship) to 'bad' reasons - I live in Hawaii. Tons of people come to the University of Hawaii for reasons quite unrelated ot education. :P

    And they do extracurricular activities to improve their chances, and seek information about how to get into the field and interview techniques and the whole nine yards!
    Well, yes. But not everyone will join a debate team. You actually have a really good chance of getting into 'any school you want' if you're good at football, for example. :P

    It's almost like people who want to succeed put effort into researching the best techniques in order to succeed!
    I think this is the big catch. Like... in real life, there are a lot of 'best' techniques to being a lawyer.

    Your argument that there would be just as many wizards focusing on Knock as there would be focusing on Polymorph or metamagicked blasting or conjuration is ludicrous.
    Oh, sure. For trying to kill things, you can objectively state that knock is worse at it than polymorph.

    Of course, if your job involves going into dungeons, a lot of monsters and groups really love locked doors with traps and all kinds of nonsense, so a trap-focused wizard would be not only handy there but a heck of a lot more vital than a seven headed hydra. :P

    Sure, not everyone is going to be an optimized red wizard circle magic incantatrix sublime chord with 240 CL and free metamagic using persisted extended super buff spells to be immune to everything and a god of war - in the same way that there are only a few CEOs of large companies in the world. But people are going to WANT to be those wizards.
    /I/ wanna be... heh, real life examples aren't allowed here. Hm.

    How do you become a CEO? I know you have to work hard, or get lucky and have your dad be already the CEO. But like... do you become the CEO by being the mailman? The most recent CEO had a mailman build. The CEO before that was a really nasty illusionist, but he went out of... business?

    Man, CEO makes a rough metaphor. Anyway, especially on the presumption that 'effective wizards sit in their towers behind eighty layers of defenses', it's very likely that they did very little saving of worlds and becoming popular or really doing anything other than 'sitting in towers' :P Again, if the previous 'doing something' guy was a warmage, then:

    And so they are going to do, if not that exact thing with the same success rate, similar things.
    Will happen. Nobody says that an optimized wizard has to hvae good PR.

    Again, if the local hero saved the village from a group of attacking red dragons via conjuration and ice spells, then people are going to want to do that. If the nation's hero saved the nation from a group of attacking red dragons via illusions and ice spells, people are gonna want to do /that/. If the most powerful wizard uses battelfield control, people are gonna want to do that. Unless he just sits in his tower all day, in which people aren't going to pay much attention to what he does.

    Again, if a level 10 battlefield control mage who sits sequestered in his tower got upset at the fact that everyone was venerating the warmage and he couldn't find any apprentices, could choose to duel an epic level warmage, in which the latter would epic spellcast his face off. :P

    Or he can just say 'screw other people' and go lich himself.
    ...or he could just say 'screw other people' and die with his magic, making this even more moot.

    Edit for the edit:

    turning up with someone who wants to be an adventurer and is good at adventuring doesn't seem like something you need to justify at ****ing all.
    Um, no need to shout or swear.

    The point isn't that 'being effective is bad', the point is, 'Just because you're a wizard doesn't mean you get to sit and look at the game mechanics to automatically discern what is best'. I mean heck, what saves things have is relatively campaign-dependant - that random kobold you're staring at may have iron will and steadfast determination and a third +will saves effect up, and thus sleep is actually a pretty poor option over shooting it with your crossbow (Which will probably kill it if you hit). :P

    Remember, if you are in a level 1 game which is unlikely to get to level 2, Toughness becomes a pretty strong feat for a low level wizard. To most if not all level one wizards, telling them, "Take quicken spell" when they can't even figure out second level spells seems a little silly. Thus, many wizards should end up taking toughness and similar 'This is useful to me right this second' feats.

    Of course, some people might end up taking quicken spell anyway. Heck, we know the Archmage Suspender Tallfellow always says that speed is the most important thing about combat, and he's one of the first people to master time stop which he uses to buff himself and set delayed blast fireballs all over the place. Or something.

    People are funny.
    Last edited by Kantolin; 2012-10-31 at 04:36 PM.
    Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...

    ~ Final Fantasy Tactics

  5. - Top - End - #65
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    And yet in the real world there aren't many people trying to become lawyers by doing degrees in gardening!
    Again, you would think so, but strangely enough, there are a lot of gardeners who wanted to be lawyers all their lives, but never got the chance, and the best that was left for them was a degree in gardening. And vice versa. A lot of lawyers are gardeners deep down inside.

    The real world is a hodgepodge of competing beliefs about success and the 'best' thing to do largely because if we make wrong choices we don't get eaten by an umber hulk.

    Living in a world where that happens tends to crystallize things for most people.
    Not at all. Because those who get eaten by an umber hulk don't get to post their sad tale on blogs for everyone else to analyze. Sir Bellacourt went to the Mountains of Doom, he never came back, do you know why he never came back? Your guess is as good as the village fool's. What exactly is crystallized here?

    THE PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BECOME ADVENTURERS DO THINGS TO BE GOOD AT ADVENTURING.
    Again, you would think so, but humans [elves, halflings] are a lot more complicated than that. There are all-night parties with endless supply of dwarven ale and cute barmaids, there's the possibility to blow stuff up with a roaring ball of flame or show off your Hypnotic Pattern, there are gambling debts to be paid... sometimes, you just don't have time to study for that Conjuration/Summoning 101 exam. Even if you want to be an adventurer.

    Turning up with a guy who wants to be an adventurer but has ZERO abilities or skills to do with, y'know, ADVENTURING, ...
    I know you didn't mean to, but you described pretty much every interesting fantasy character from Bilbo Baggins to Tyrion Lannister.

  6. - Top - End - #66
    Barbarian in the Playground
    Join Date
    Oct 2011

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantolin View Post
    Again, if a level 10 battlefield control mage who sits sequestered in his tower got upset at the fact that everyone was venerating the warmage and he couldn't find any apprentices, could choose to duel an epic level warmage, in which the latter would epic spellcast his face off. :P
    What if an epic-level battlefield control mage did the same?
    Spoiler
    Show

  7. - Top - End - #67
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Hawaii
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Augmental View Post
    What if an epic-level battlefield control mage did the same?
    Ooh, then it depends on the research they both did, thus the epic level diviner would probably beat up both of them and result in a heck of a lot of divination focused excited kids. :P

    ...Unless one or all of them were gigantic jerks, or evil, or heck good. Then some people might want to avoid doing that.

    I mean, the battlefield control mage might shrug and say, "You can't fight what you can't see!" in which the other epic level warmage shrugs and states, "I made an epic spell specifically for this purpose" and blows him up. Or the BC mage might be able to lock down the warmage such that he's useless and plink him to death from comfort.

    ....Ooooor the warmage might use his epic shenanigans spell that rends the material plane in half and the BC mage counters with an army of solars, which in turn causes several of the higher planes to become quite upset at what is going on and try to interfere themselves, and everything goes nuts. ^_^

    Edit: Importantly to this, however! There isn't /necessarily/ an epic level anything. Anyone who does get that far has either luck or the power of plot on their side - nothing is stopping that person from being severely overoptimized or severely underoptimized. In a game where powerful hyperoptimized carefully sculpted clerics and druids have everything under lock and key, wanting to be a 'wizard of any sort' probably sounds like a sub-par idea. Unless you're rebelling against the dominant regime, or...
    Last edited by Kantolin; 2012-10-31 at 04:45 PM.
    Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...

    ~ Final Fantasy Tactics

  8. - Top - End - #68
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    And people most likely won't understand what happened in that battle anyway, and without anyone to take a cellphone video and post it on YouTube, all would be left is a hodgepodge of contradictory verbal reports. Most of them would start with "My cousin's friend was right there, and ..."

  9. - Top - End - #69
    Bugbear in the Playground
    Join Date
    Apr 2011

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Assuming the Ward seed immunity to spells acts as infinite SR like Spell Immunity, there are a few good ways for a well-prepared Wizard to take down an epic spellcaster.
    On creating medieval thermobaric detonations:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ravens_cry View Post
    *strokes chin*
    Hmmm, I like the way you think.
    On rewriting your own past into a stable time loop of invulnerability:
    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    Kardar233's Illithid:
    *strokes chin*
    Hmmm, I like the way you think.
    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    kardar233's Tyr: So ok, it seems to me that your character evades death o_O. Congratulations *fanfare*

  10. - Top - End - #70
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Hawaii
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    Assuming the Ward seed immunity to spells acts as infinite SR like Spell Immunity, there are a few good ways for a well-prepared Wizard to take down an epic spellcaster.
    Uh, Okay. ^_^
    Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...

    ~ Final Fantasy Tactics

  11. - Top - End - #71
    Titan in the Playground
     
    BardGuy

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    I wish I knew...
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Kantolin View Post
    A & B (And depending on optimization and enemy, C) are in fact true. now:



    This one is the one I have trouble with.

    You can take a thousand experiments with farmer joe and come the conclusion that your spells have a 85% chance of putting him to sleep, and then discover it's a 75% vs Farmer John, and a 95% chance vs Farmer Jane. Now, you know these three guys, so after some experimentation it makes sense to you - Farmer John is by far the most wise, while Farmer Jane is a dunce.

    You then step into a dungeon and fight a kobold. Is this Farmer John? Farmer Joe? Farmer Jane? Every other kobold you've fought has had a will save significantly worse than Farmer Jane's. This one, however, took iron will/steadfast determination and has a surprisingly high wisdom(/con), so the wizard's odds are actually only like a 25%, but he doesn't know that - he's just informed it doesn't work. Or, potentially worse, he gets lucky and his 25% succeeds, resulting in it failing him later when he's now relatively certain it will work. Or, after a lot of 25% kobolds, he then starts running into 95% kobolds but is not informed about this.
    This falls through when you can stack your DC's up into the 40's. Then it really doesn't matter if he has a +1 will save or a +20... the odds of making the save is 5% across the board. Doubly so when you use Conjuration-based shutdowns which bypass SR.

    "They have a 95% chance to fall victim to my magic. Everything from Kobolds to Balors to Clerics to Barbarians... it doesn't matter what it is, 95% chance".

    Then you come up with UPS man type builds, and it is simply 'fall over now, no save, no SR, no attack roll, no immunity... just fall over now'.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Underlord View Post
    All hail great Shneekeythulhu! Ia Ia Shneeky fthagn
    Spoiler
    Show
    Quite possibly, the best rebuttal I have ever witnessed.
    Joker Bard - the DM's solution to the Batman Wizard.
    Takahashi no Onisan - The scariest Samurai alive
    Incarnum and YOU: a reference guide
    Soulmelds, by class and slot: Another Incarnum reference
    Multiclassing for Newbies: A reference guide for the rest of us

    My homebrew world in progress: Falcora

  12. - Top - End - #72
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Hawaii
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by ShneekeyTheLost View Post
    "They have a 95% chance to fall victim to my magic. Everything from Kobolds to Balors to Clerics to Barbarians... it doesn't matter what it is, 95% chance".
    Only kinda. :P When you hit these levels of optimization, your enemies tend to run into similar levels of optimization (Or, I suppose, you curbstomp everything).

    Thus at this point, immunities tend to become more key, which leads you to more mailman-style builds anyway.
    Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...

    ~ Final Fantasy Tactics

  13. - Top - End - #73
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    I click on a thread titled "Regarding Wraithstrike" and I stumble on a discussion about reasons to choose universities.

    To the OP: AC is not and should never be your only defense at high levels. Use miss chance, maybe some AMF; have active defenses up like tripping or Abrupt Jaunt; have the battlefield be something you cannot charge through; use the Elusive Target feat, it negates the benefits of PA and keeps the drawbacks; (Lesser) Globe of Invulnerability makes any low level spell non-functional in its area; ToB maneuvers to elude/parry/counter attacks; Robilar's Gambit and a spell storing weapon to dispel the wraithstrike before the first attack.

    Just throwing some ideas around.
    Best homebrew ever (shameless self plug)! The Stoner, always PEACH

  14. - Top - End - #74
    Banned
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Sydnah, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    {scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-11-04 at 04:24 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #75
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    there is no limited intake for incantatrixes
    This made me chuckle a bit. You seem to be very confused between ingame and out-of-game decision making. Out of game, there is no limited intake for incantatrixes, as any player can roll up this particular class (unless the DM bans it, of course).

    Ingame, the incantatrix prestige class is exactly as rare or as common as you want it to be. Maybe there's only one guy teaching the secrets of this particular technique, he doesn't like competition, access to him is limited, and 99.999999% of the wizards in your world have no chance to learn this PrC, regardless of how efficient they want to be, how talented they are, etc.

    Of course, if you want this PrC to be available to your character (either because your character is in the 0.0000001%, or because it's actually not that rare), there's nothing wrong with that. But that would be a player decision that has nothing to do with in-character reasoning.

  16. - Top - End - #76
    Ogre in the Playground
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    Hawaii
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Um. Well!

    Quote Originally Posted by mucco View Post
    I click on a thread titled "Regarding Wraithstrike" and I stumble on a discussion about reasons to choose universities.
    This is, in fact, true. ^_^ The topic involves wraithstrike, not 'is it logical for someone to make a build that is less than optimized in some campaign settings'.

    I shall stop my end of the off-topic debate here, heh.
    Beginnings usually happen over trifles... even if it's a coincidence...

    ~ Final Fantasy Tactics

  17. - Top - End - #77
    Titan in the Playground
     
    AlanBruce's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Lima, Peru
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by mucco View Post
    I click on a thread titled "Regarding Wraithstrike" and I stumble on a discussion about reasons to choose universities.

    To the OP: AC is not and should never be your only defense at high levels. Use miss chance, maybe some AMF; have active defenses up like tripping or Abrupt Jaunt; have the battlefield be something you cannot charge through; use the Elusive Target feat, it negates the benefits of PA and keeps the drawbacks; (Lesser) Globe of Invulnerability makes any low level spell non-functional in its area; ToB maneuvers to elude/parry/counter attacks; Robilar's Gambit and a spell storing weapon to dispel the wraithstrike before the first attack.

    Just throwing some ideas around.
    Thank you so very much for those suggestions! I had overlooked both that feat from CW and the spell. Granted, not every foe will have such abilities (that would be awful metagaming), but past recurring villains that have suffered under such duress may surprise the gish in future sessions.

  18. - Top - End - #78
    Banned
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Sydnah, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    This made me chuckle a bit. You seem to be very confused between ingame and out-of-game decision making. Out of game, there is no limited intake for incantatrixes, as any player can roll up this particular class (unless the DM bans it, of course).

    Ingame, the incantatrix prestige class is exactly as rare or as common as you want it to be. Maybe there's only one guy teaching the secrets of this particular technique, he doesn't like competition, access to him is limited, and 99.999999% of the wizards in your world have no chance to learn this PrC, regardless of how efficient they want to be, how talented they are, etc.

    Of course, if you want this PrC to be available to your character (either because your character is in the 0.0000001%, or because it's actually not that rare), there's nothing wrong with that. But that would be a player decision that has nothing to do with in-character reasoning.
    You're confusing game reality with out of character decisions.

    If incantatrixes are awesome, there is nothing stopping [most wizards] who reach the appropriate power level becoming incantatrixes.


    Your argument of 'well it's the DMs world so he says what's in it' is entirely correct except for the part where no-one was arguing about that - your appeal to authority is invalid. People were arguing, and talking about, the fact that it's more likely that when faced with the choice of being a blood magus or an evoker or an incantatrix, most sane people would choose incantatrix.

    And thus, most non-dead wizards would have semi-optimized builds, at the very least.

    The argument of 'well there might just NOT BE ANY INCANTATRIXES IN THAT WORLD' is ridiculous and childish. Whatever the [most optimized] i.e. [most successful] type of class or feat combination that exists in that world is, allowing for entropy i.e. randomization of data i.e. PEOPLE GETTING IT WRONG, that will be the most common aimed for, if not necessarily achieved, result.

    That is the only logical solution, and metagaming or the lack thereof doesn't come into it whatsoever.

  19. - Top - End - #79
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    You're confusing game reality with out of character decisions.

    If incantatrixes are awesome, there is nothing stopping [most wizards] who reach the appropriate power level becoming incantatrixes.
    {Scrubbed}
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-11-04 at 04:30 PM.

  20. - Top - End - #80
    Titan in the Playground
     
    TuggyNE's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    Recovering from RSI
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    {scrub the post, scrub the quote}
    Might I politely suggest that you just patiently re-list them? A bit of forbearance goes a long way.
    Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2012-11-04 at 04:31 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by hamishspence View Post
    "Common sense" and "RAW" are not exactly on speaking terms
    Projects: Homebrew, Gentlemen's Agreement, DMPCs, Forbidden Knowledge safety, and Top Ten Worst. Also, Quotes and RACSD are good.

    Anyone knows blue is for sarcas'ing in "Take 10 SAN damage from Dark Orchid" Use of gray may indicate nitpicking Green is sincerity

  21. - Top - End - #81
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    OldWizardGuy

    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Well, to become an Incantatrix, you have to give up another school. Red Wizards already have to do that, as do Focused Specialists.

    A Focust Specialist/Red Wizard/Incantatrix only gets 3 schools. One of those schools is Divination. Another is *Probably* Abjuration, depending on DM ruling. So you get one school of choice.

    Conjuration? Transmutation? Illusion? Pick one.

    A lot of wizards wouldn't go down this path because it does limit you.

    Some, however, do go this way and reap the benefits.

    In real life, it's analogolus to pick one field of study (Magic) then specialize on a certain aspect of that field (Your one school) and go for a doctorate there.

    Even then, you're not guerunteed success, and failing here is worse than if you picked a broader field, because there's always going to be work for a JOAT, but someone who didn't get to the top in a narrow field? That means there's someone else, and they're better, and the job opportunities are not as plentiful.

    So there's reasons.

    In D&D, where you're a player character? There's not. But if it was a simulationist environment? Plenty.

    Edit: In regards to the problem with Wraithstrike:
    Quote Originally Posted by Hirax View Post
    Have a look here for some armor that not only doesn't have a max dex bonus, but would increase your dex mod to 14. Just don't fail any saving throws against cold attacks, and make sure to get a high CL of hardening cast on the armor. edit: the reflective armor feat in Races of Stone can get your armor bonus to apply to touch AC, if that's of interest. There's a feat in Lords of Madness that makes your shield bonus apply to touch AC too, so you could use that with an animated shield.
    Last edited by Acanous; 2012-11-01 at 10:12 PM.

  22. - Top - End - #82
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2010

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    Well, to become an Incantatrix, you have to give up another school. Red Wizards already have to do that, as do Focused Specialists.

    A Focust Specialist/Red Wizard/Incantatrix only gets 3 schools. One of those schools is Divination. Another is *Probably* Abjuration, depending on DM ruling. So you get one school of choice.

    Conjuration? Transmutation? Illusion? Pick one.
    That's somewhat of a corner case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    A lot of wizards wouldn't go down this path because it does limit you.

    Some, however, do go this way and reap the benefits.
    It doesn't limit you that much. There's at least 3 schools most wizards wouldn't have much problem giving up:

    Evocation: Even leaving 'blasting is suboptimal' aside (which isn't that hard to conclude in character), it doesn't take a genius to realize 90% of what evocation does is replicated by other schools.

    Necromancy: If raising undead and 'dark magic' carries the usual stigma, I'd expect a lot of wizards would stay completely away from it.

    Enchantment: Mind controlling people is nice, but until high level very glitchy and situational (the average adventuring wizard would realize non-immune enemies are a subset of total enemies, and humanoids which most low-level charm/compulsions affect are an even smaller subset). I really don't see the average wizard getting much mileage out of Enchantment unless he's not an adventuring wizard, but rather spending a lot of time in human(oid) communities.

    So, in short, generalists can easily give up Evocation, and specialists can easily give up the 3 mentioned above. Focused specialists are faced with a choice, but claiming that a majority of wizards are focused specialists is actually reinforcing the point of view that most people make optimized choices.

  23. - Top - End - #83
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Well, buffer wizards don't want to give up Enchantment and debuffer wizards don't want to give up Necromancy. Most generalist wizards want some utility blasts in their arsenal, and orbs are sometimes banned/AoE is preferred. Also, Contingency.

    Your fog-grease-summon-happy conjurer and your alterself-polymorph-shapechange gish will not care about those, yes. I find that it is a relatively small subset of all good, if not "best possible", builds.
    Last edited by mucco; 2012-11-02 at 12:40 AM.
    Best homebrew ever (shameless self plug)! The Stoner, always PEACH

  24. - Top - End - #84
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2010

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by mucco View Post
    Well, buffer wizards don't want to give up Enchantment and debuffer wizards don't want to give up Necromancy. Most generalist wizards want some utility blasts in their arsenal, and orbs are sometimes banned/AoE is preferred. Also, Contingency.
    Enchantment has a handful of buffs, msot of it is debuffs/save-or-suck with the [Mind Affecting tag].

    Unless you rely on stuff like Heroism or Rage for buffs, you're not going to miss Enchantment much.
    Fair point on debuffers, Necro isn't a bad school, but certainly harder to give up than Enchantment and Evocation.

    Regarding AOE blasting, a quick skim through the Spell compendium Conjuration spells: Acid Breath (Lvl 3), Blast of Flame (lvl 4), Arc of lightning (Lvl 5), Vitriolic Sphere(Lvl 5), Acid Storm (lvl 6). I wouldn't say it lacks AOe blasting. Also, I was basing my position of an all spells available world. Of course, if you ban conjuration blasting spells, then conjuration can't blast, but that's not the default case.


    Regarding Contingency, Craft Contingent Spell is arguably better, and Greater Shadow Evocation is an acceptable substitute (comes online 4 levels later though).

  25. - Top - End - #85
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    ClericGuy

    Join Date
    Jan 2010

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Oh, I guess. I consider that feat broken because the only limiting factor to Contingency is that you only have one, and I think that the Shadow X line of spells is a poor excuse for cheese and not that powerful after all. But yeah, opinion.

    About Enchantment you are right - most beneficial enchantments are Cleric spells. My memory failed me. However, going around the books I spotted some very nice AoE SoSuck spells, and several powerful rays. I'm now thinking it might be a good school for debuffing.

    Also I should point out one thing that this forums always gets wrong, in my opinion. If you tell your DM you want to make an enchanting focused character and he throws many creatures immune to you, he is being a bad DM. The fact that this school is easily negated shouldn't prevent players from playing it for flavor purposes. Sometimes it's ok when the occasional undead pops out, but if there is an Enchanter and the main villain is a Lich, the DM is bad or the game is not centered on combat.
    Best homebrew ever (shameless self plug)! The Stoner, always PEACH

  26. - Top - End - #86
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2010

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Oh, I guess. I consider that feat broken because the only limiting factor to Contingency is that you only have one, and I think that the Shadow X line of spells is a poor excuse for cheese and not that powerful after all. But yeah, opinion.
    Completely agree on Craft Contingent Spell (it's one of the very few things we don't allow in my group as our experience with it has been that it turns the fights into 'who has the better worded chain of contingent spells'), as for Shadow Evocation, it's only practical use IMO is to gain access to Contingency, which is a good thing (having to lug around a largely useless school, that can be 95% duplicated by Conjuration, usually with the added bonus of SR:no just for access to 1 spell isn't very appealing).


    Quote Originally Posted by mucco View Post

    Also I should point out one thing that this forums always gets wrong, in my opinion. If you tell your DM you want to make an enchanting focused character and he throws many creatures immune to you, he is being a bad DM. The fact that this school is easily negated shouldn't prevent players from playing it for flavor purposes. Sometimes it's ok when the occasional undead pops out, but if there is an Enchanter and the main villain is a Lich, the DM is bad or the game is not centered on combat.
    IMo it depends on the circumstances. If the DM asks the players to make characters for a new game (without providing much info on the plot) and somebody comes with an Enchanter, he should probably try and not make the character feel useless 90% of the time, or, if that's not possible (he has a plotline involving a lot of immune creatures and he doesn't want to change) he should at least advise the player to switch to something else.

    However, if the DM says something like 'hey guys, the next campaign is going to be about stopping hordes of undead' then it's a player's own damn fault for bringing an enchanter to the table. Same goes for sandbox games. If you poke behind the 'Here be undead' sign, you're going to find undead there even if the whole party is made of Focused Specialist Enchanters and Beguilers.
    Last edited by LordBlades; 2012-11-02 at 03:04 AM.

  27. - Top - End - #87
    Banned
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Sydnah, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Acanous View Post
    So there's reasons.

    In D&D, where you're a player character? There's not. But if it was a simulationist environment? Plenty.
    The problem with that argument is; Magic.

    Magic can teleport the exact specialist you need from whatever corner of the world he is hiding in.

    Magic can find that specialist instantly through the agencies of powerful outsiders who know everything ever or simple stuff like the collective unconscious memory of humanity.

    Magic can solve nearly any mundane problem you might have nigh instantly, not requiring the years of work that in the real world even the highest level of specialists tend to have to put in on any major project.



    Magic is just so gosh-darned powerful in DnD that JOATs are relatively less useful in comparison to the guy with the right spell or speciality. Because what they trade in exchange for being a JOAT is the difference between a 220lb bomb and a tac nuke. Except even that's a flawed example, because tac nukes don't get to prepare their explosive force any way they want at the start of the day.

    In the real world, a specialist in one field will be better, but not unimaginably better, than a generalist, on average - and the cross-training of a generalist can make his viewpoint more valuable than a specialist.

    In DnD that's not really true.

    And YES focused abjurers or whatever would have some role - especially if we allow roleplaying DM-designed stuff into the mix like 'portal that is really hard to close' kind of thing. But if we're assuming the most common type of wizard in adventuring parties is the adventuring wizard i.e. the combat wizard or the monster killer wizard, then we must assume that his magic is focused on surviving combat.

    And generations of wizards would be able to tell that combat wizard [don't use evocations they tend to bounce off or not kill stuff that is tough] and [learn to empower your spells as or after you cast them as that is awesome (incantatrix)] in the same way we have learned in real life that a bad product with good marketing will completely outsell a good product with bad marketing, and other esoterica of various fields.

  28. - Top - End - #88
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    The problem with that argument is; Magic.

    Magic can teleport the exact specialist you need from whatever corner of the world he is hiding in.

    Magic can find that specialist instantly through the agencies of powerful outsiders who know everything ever or simple stuff like the collective unconscious memory of humanity.

    Magic can solve nearly any mundane problem you might have nigh instantly, not requiring the years of work that in the real world even the highest level of specialists tend to have to put in on any major project.
    The problem with this argument is: Magic.

    Or rather, the assumption that as your character was developing, he had access to arbitrarity high levels of magic and magical knowledge which just so happened to work in his favor. While this, in theory, might be the case, I see no reason why it necessarily should be.

    Example: let's say we determine that the optimal way to build a Wizard is Quicken Spell on level 1, [some metamagic reducer] on level 3, [some kind of PrC on level 4, so you don't get the 5th level wizard feat], and Arcane Thesis on level 6. Let's say it's well known over the Internet that this is the beginning for the most powerful wizard build.

    How do we explain this in-character?

    When he was level 1, he just happened to find the right mentor for Quicken Spell. Eventhough he can't actually cast any quickened spells and it's a wasted feat for now. But he, while still an entry-level mageling, managed to comb through the collective unconscious memory of humanity, whatever that may mean, teleport the right specialist, and took Quicken Spell, a feat he can't possibly use, because he knew it will benefit his build later and because he knew already then that his 3rd and 6th level feats will combo with it.

    I mean, okay, I concede that it's possible, if a bit tenuous, that he happened to have the right mentor, who pointed him into an old book and said "study this. It will become of great value to you later, even if now you do not realize this".

    But just because such build is known to be the most powerful out-of-game, it's utterly ridiculous to assume that it should become the norm in-game.

  29. - Top - End - #89
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    DruidGuy

    Join Date
    Oct 2010

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by Zdrak View Post
    The problem with this argument is: Magic.

    Or rather, the assumption that as your character was developing, he had access to arbitrarity high levels of magic and magical knowledge which just so happened to work in his favor. While this, in theory, might be the case, I see no reason why it necessarily should be.

    Example: let's say we determine that the optimal way to build a Wizard is Quicken Spell on level 1, [some metamagic reducer] on level 3, [some kind of PrC on level 4, so you don't get the 5th level wizard feat], and Arcane Thesis on level 6. Let's say it's well known over the Internet that this is the beginning for the most powerful wizard build.

    How do we explain this in-character?

    When he was level 1, he just happened to find the right mentor for Quicken Spell. Eventhough he can't actually cast any quickened spells and it's a wasted feat for now. But he, while still an entry-level mageling, managed to comb through the collective unconscious memory of humanity, whatever that may mean, teleport the right specialist, and took Quicken Spell, a feat he can't possibly use, because he knew it will benefit his build later and because he knew already then that his 3rd and 6th level feats will combo with it.

    I mean, okay, I concede that it's possible, if a bit tenuous, that he happened to have the right mentor, who pointed him into an old book and said "study this. It will become of great value to you later, even if now you do not realize this".

    But just because such build is known to be the most powerful out-of-game, it's utterly ridiculous to assume that it should become the norm in-game.
    That thing might happen more often than you think, especially if there's some soer of formal wizard wducation involved. See RL technical universities: in early years students are taught a ton of math, uselessbat the time but crucial in understanding other technical subjects taught in later years.

  30. - Top - End - #90
    Dwarf in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: Regarding Wraithstrike

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBlades View Post
    That thing might happen more often than you think, especially if there's some soer of formal wizard wducation involved. See RL technical universities: in early years students are taught a ton of math, uselessbat the time but crucial in understanding other technical subjects taught in later years.
    Hmm, you make a good point. However, I see no reason why even the formal wizardry education should necessary teach how to be an adventuring wizard. Especially given the fact that adventuring wizards usually advance in levels by adventuring and not by taking classes in an academy.

    So, I stand by my opinion that yes, this efficient combo of feats might happen, but there is no reason to assume it should happen as a norm.

    Additionally, the 'efficient' wizard who was taught that he should take Quicken Spell on level 1 and [some metamagic reducer] on level 3, is spending levels 1-5 of his career with two dead feats that do absolutely nothing for now. Meanwhile, he has to adventure, he has to fight level-appropriate enemies, he has to survive to level 6, before finally his 6th level feat ties up his build in a neat bundle. Meanwhile, he's at a clear disadvantage vs. the Wizard who took Toughness x2.

    You and Rejakor claimed it's a natural selection thing, and characters with inefficient builds 'get eaten by Umber Hulks'. I say natural selection works both ways. Unlike the engineer who can afford to spend all of year 1 studying math, and only later study the things he needs math for, the wizard has to go adventuring now. The one who took Toughness or even Dodge or Lightning Reflexes as his first level feat is much more likely to make it to level 2 than the one who took Quicken Spell.

    This type of natural selection could, who knows, maybe even give a bad rap to Quicken Spell. Maybe everyone hears stories of low-level wizards who studied Quicken Spell and died horribly in their first expedition, while those who lifted weights in their spare time (Toughness) survived to tell their tales. In fact, typical adventuring parties may view the Quicken Spell level 1 wizard as a liability and refuse to employ him, instead proactively seeking level 1 wizards who took Toughness or Lighting Reflexes.

    Of course, these are all possible ingame considerations. Out of game? The DM tells you to make a 9th level Wizard, you make a 9th level wizard with the best combination of feats PrCs and ACFs.
    Last edited by Zdrak; 2012-11-02 at 04:33 PM.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •