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  1. - Top - End - #391
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    pendell's Avatar

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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    For my money, this is practically the exact opposite of my own standpoint. The force is everyone. It isn't a seperate thing that decides your destiny or applies mechanical penalties as much as it is a metaphysical layer of reality, made up of the combined actions essences emotions or whatever of everyone and everything. The Jedi can do a few neet tricks by tapping into this, and more importantly can allow it to guide them in their actions in such a way as to be more successful. This means they are more likely to be involved in the kind of turning point moments and events that decide the nature of this conglomerate gestalt, but it doesn't make them any better or intrinsically more important than anyone else as such.
    Bingo. That is my point also.

    On the other hand if you don't, I think it renders everything and everyone who is not a Jedi or a Sith completely irrevelevant and pointless, nothing more than window dressing for the jumped-up-samurai and their frequently-badly-exectued philosphical mumbo-jumbo. I'll stick by rational every single day of the week, thanks.
    I don't think that's quite the case.

    I see the Force in the movies as being the sum total of the decisions of ALL the beings in the galaxy, not just the Force-users. The Force-Users are simply those beings who are most easily manipulated by it. Sort of like hypnosis. Some people can by hypnotized, other people can't. The ones who can be Force-hypnotized are manipulated by the Force more often to accomplish those things, but they aren't meaningful by themselves. Just as Luke needed Han and Chewbacca and the droids to be effective, so the Force-user's efforts are meaningless by themselves.

    I think that's the way the Jedi see it. They see the Force as something to submit to and to flow with. The Sith see it just as you describe -- something the Sith do not submit to, but command. Hence their disdain for non-force users. But even Palpatine doesn't depend on the Force alone. He has an army of millions and millions of minions and starships, which implies he thinks ordinary people have their part to play too.

    On the other hand if you don't, I think it renders everything and everyone who is not a Jedi or a Sith completely irrevelevant and pointless, nothing more than window dressing for the jumped-up-samurai and their frequently-badly-exectued philosphical mumbo-jumbo. I'll stick by rational every single day of the week, thanks.
    I actually agree with you. I prefer playing characters like Karrde or Solo and to concentrate more on the SF parts of Star Wars and less on the mystical stuff. I think the Jedi and the Sith are a bunch of attention whores and I think the antagonist in KOTOR II had the right idea. But that doesn't mean I don't believe the Force is a fundamental part of Lucas' vision for Star Wars and I believe it functions as I describe.

    Incidentally, I've been re-thinking your discussion of the missile boats and tie defenders and I question it from a purely tactical perspective. The missile boat et al were wonderful machines in Tie Fighter when flown by us protaganists, but ISTR my wingmen having a hard time surviving more than three minutes without dying. Have you played X-wing alliance ? The Battle of Endor is the concluding battle of the game, and there is a skirmish mode where you can put X fighters vs. Y fighters in any mix you please. IIRC, you can have Imperial X-wings fighting Rebel Missile boats fighting Pirate T-wings in a three-sided melee. IME, It took approximately 4 x-wings to kill 2 tie defenders. Because when they're flown by stupid AI rather than protaganists, they aren't so hot. Missile boats were likewise nerfed by giving all the fighters countermeasures. When you have to throw six or eight missiles at a single fighter to bring it down, an 80-missile ship is suddenly a lot less useful. It becomes a slightly-faster gunboat with one blaster. So you're going to have to bring a LOT of Tie defenders and Missile boats to the battle to tip the balance. Otherwise they're just a drop in the bucket without tactical significance.

    There's also the psychological factor that the Imperial Admiralty is primarily composed of big-ship advocates who thought the original Tie Fighter was a perfectly adequate vehicle (ha) and they will undoubtedly dig in their heels to prove in the battle that Big Ships Pwn All And We Don't Need Starfighters. Which means you're going to have a difficult time getting the fighters a dance card.


    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2012-11-07 at 08:06 PM.
    "Opportunities to do good are everywhere but the darkness is where the light needs to be".

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  2. - Top - End - #392
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    For my money, this is practically the exact opposite of my own standpoint. The force is everyone. It isn't a seperate thing that decides your destiny or applies mechanical penalties as much as it is a metaphysical layer of reality, made up of the combined actions essences emotions or whatever of everyone and everything. The Jedi can do a few neet tricks by tapping into this, and more importantly can allow it to guide them in their actions in such a way as to be more successful. This means they are more likely to be involved in the kind of turning point moments and events that decide the nature of this conglomerate gestalt, but it doesn't make them any better or intrinsically more important than anyone else as such.

    The Deathstar trench run was helped just as much by Han doing the selfless thing as by Luke having the faith to try without the targetting assistance. In essence, Han coming to help his friends is the light-side push that tipped the balance of that conflict, allowed Luke time to take the shot and saved the rebellion.
    Quote Originally Posted by pendell View Post
    Bingo. That is my point also.
    That does not, however, grant the Force the sort of probability-modifiying capabilites pendell was suggesting, however. And even the sort of morale-modifying effect of any moment seem highly unlikely, since it required skilled Force specialists (Bastila, C'Boath, Palapatine) to create that kind of impact in canon.

    Ulitmately, though, I think this is veering into engineer-verses-philospher territory again here, wherein our perspectives on the matter are just flat-out opposite, and I don't feel there's much more point debating it further when neither side is going to convince the other; I've said my piece, I'll leave it at that. (And also before we get heated about it, which I'm, at least, in danger of becoming were we to continue.)

    Also, I really need to stop getting into these debates right before meditation time, damn you Foreign People, why can't you be active at sensible hours of the GMT...?



    Quote Originally Posted by pendell
    Have you played X-wing alliance ? The Battle of Endor is the concluding battle of the game, and there is a skirmish mode where you can put X fighters vs. Y fighters in any mix you please. IIRC, you can have Imperial X-wings fighting Rebel Missile boats fighting Pirate T-wings in a three-sided melee. IME, It took approximately 4 x-wings to kill 2 tie defenders. Because when they're flown by stupid AI rather than protaganists, they aren't so hot. Missile boats were likewise nerfed by giving all the fighters countermeasures. When you have to throw six or eight missiles at a single fighter to bring it down, an 80-missile ship is suddenly a lot less useful. It becomes a slightly-faster gunboat with one blaster. So you're going to have to bring a LOT of Tie defenders and Missile boats to the battle to tip the balance. Otherwise they're just a drop in the bucket without tactical significance.
    X-Wing verses TIE Fighter and XWA nerfed the statistics of the advanced TIEs and Missileboats something rotten, reducing the speed, manouverability and hull-strength and halving the base shields (and a 60% reduction for the TIE Avenger) - and removing the Missileboat's signiture SLAM, all on the basis that it would have unbalanced the multiplayer. (Counter measures are also something added to those games for multiplayer balance that have not been seen (in any meaningful degree) outside of them for the same reasons - I also never found countermeasures to be particularly effective, at that).

    The capabilities referred to in "canon" (as far as that goes), in the fictions (and in places like Wookiepedia), support the initial TIE Fighter stats, however, and are thus what I base my arguments on. (Also Imperial loyalist, duh.)

    (We touched on this subject when we last had a debate on it, pendell, three years ago when the rumours of TIE Fighter 2 were in the air. What don't you remember...?)

    Yes, okay, fine, I did discover that by accident trying to find the comparitive TIE Fighter to XWA stats online before realising I would have to dig out the hand-written records I made years ago from the tech rooms of both games that I used when writing Starwing, my dogfighting system (named after the GUN's official name, natch) which was among other things, designed to emulate the SW flight sims1.)



    1At the time, I used the XWA stats, beliveing them to be retcons; it wasn't until just prior to that very conversation I learned that the TIE Fighter stats were considered canon and I'm been doing my TIE Avengers out of stats the whole time we played that game...!
    Last edited by Aotrs Commander; 2012-11-07 at 08:51 PM.

  3. - Top - End - #393
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    They could have made the Jedi magic-less samurai and simply incorporated the Force as the Crystal Ship Buddhism of the setting. However, as an analogy of wisdom and virtue overcoming strength and tyranny it's perfectly adequate. Why Lucas felt the need to introduce Midi-chlorians I've no idea, that came out of left field.

    I thought maybe it was just to expedite Anakin's turn of fortune, but Liam Neeson could have easily just said "The force is strong in this one, my spider sense is telling me so" and everyone in the audience would've nodded their head wanting to get this all over with anyways. Taking a blood sample to confirm his magical potential was utterly pointless and confusing.

  4. - Top - End - #394
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Aotrs Commander View Post

    Ulitmately, I think this is veering into engineer-verses-philospher territory again here, wherein our perspectives are just flat-out opposite, and I don't feel there's much more point debating it further when neither side is going to convince the other; I've said my piece, I'll leave it at that. (And also before we get heated about it, which I'm, at least, in danger of becoming were we to continue.)
    That seems a pretty accurate summation of the situation. The main thing is, Starwars, being a mysticism filled science-fantasy property, naturally lends itself to the Philosopher end of the scale more so than the Engineer. Not a good thing, nor a bad thing, but definately a thing. Though, essentially, things are subtle enough in the Original Trilogy at least for that same dichotamy for it to be an in-universe issue as well and at the heart of Hans "not believing in the force" moment, with him saying nothing was controlling his destiny but him and Obi-Wan smiling knowingly.

    When it's less subtle and unclear than that, essentially, I think it loses more than it gains, regardless of which side prospers.

    Also, it doesn't grant the probability modifying properties pendell was talking about because I don't particularly agree with all of his argument, which frankly contained more than a little exaggeration perhaps, to my eye.

  5. - Top - End - #395
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    BlueKnightGuy

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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    They could have made the Jedi magic-less samurai and simply incorporated the Force as the Crystal Ship Buddhism of the setting. However, as an analogy of wisdom and virtue overcoming strength and tyranny it's perfectly adequate. Why Lucas felt the need to introduce Midi-chlorians I've no idea, that came out of left field.

    I thought maybe it was just to expedite Anakin's turn of fortune, but Liam Neeson could have easily just said "The force is strong in this one, my spider sense is telling me so" and everyone in the audience would've nodded their head wanting to get this all over with anyways. Taking a blood sample to confirm his magical potential was utterly pointless and confusing.
    Actually had they included Jedi Houses this could have been explained as running a dna check as Qui-Gonn suspected Anakin was either illegitimate or a lost child of one of the Jedi Households something that blood check would have resolved since they had historical archives about members of those houses to get an accurate reading on Annie's potential in relation to them.

    Sorry the idea they could detect the force potential via a handy device meant there should have been no way any Jedi could have escaped detection and yes it definitely came out of nowhere!

  6. - Top - End - #396
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Also, it doesn't grant the probability modifying properties pendell was talking about because I don't particularly agree with all of his argument, which frankly contained more than a little exaggeration perhaps, to my eye.
    I base my probability-altering argument on Luke's hitting of the exhaust port, which was supposed to be 'impossible, even for a computer', on the Ewok victory over the Stormtroopers, which again is supposed to be impossible, and Obi-wan's comment that there is no such thing as luck.

    I also note that absent some sort of force interaction the entire scene of Luke in the throne room in Return of the Jedi is meaningless. If his actions had no impact on the battle at large, he could have simply kicked back and listened to music until Lando blew up the Death Star.

    But it doesn't seem to work that way. The fight in the throne room is precisely choreographed to mimic the larger battle. When Luke does nothing, the rebels get slaughtered. The turning point of the battle comes when Luke draws his sword and starts to fight back. As Luke fights, so the rebels fight. It is only after the Emperor dies in the reactor shaft the Lando successfully blows up the reactor and Luke escapes alone from the Death Star -- which again is a highly improbable event.

    The common thread in all these themes are the Force. If there indeed is no such thing is luck, then things happen because the force would have it so. Perhaps the battle in the throne room is simply a microcosm for the larger forces, or perhaps the battle in the throne room is a focal point which shifts the larger action. Perhaps both. But I think in the SW universe "probability" is meaningless because there's a greater Force which dictates the outcome of all actions.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    "Opportunities to do good are everywhere but the darkness is where the light needs to be".

    -- Eliezer Yudkowski, author of "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

  7. - Top - End - #397
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Well, all that is a theory just as valid as any other, mine included. I just think it goes a little far. Which is to say, it echoes Han's understanding of the situation, that the force dictates what happens.

    It's not about one side forcing the other to do or be something. The conflict in the force, the battle in the throne room, the starship battle outside, all just different layers and componants of the overal battle. Each as important as the other, and reflecting the free will of all involved.

    I see it working differently, my self, though I otherwise largely agree with your overall points.

    Perhaps, to borrow Aotrs terminology, I'm simply a little further up the Philosophical end of the Engineer/Philosophy scale on this?

  8. - Top - End - #398
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    Well, all that is a theory just as valid as any other, mine included. I just think it goes a little far. Which is to say, it echoes Han's understanding of the situation, that the force dictates what happens.

    It's not about one side forcing the other to do or be something. The conflict in the force, the battle in the throne room, the starship battle outside, all just different layers and componants of the overal battle. Each as important as the other, and reflecting the free will of all involved.

    I see it working differently, my self, though I otherwise largely agree with your overall points.

    Perhaps, to borrow Aotrs terminology, I'm simply a little further up the Philosophical end of the Engineer/Philosophy scale on this?
    Could be. I think also that the concept of fate vs. free will is so knotty that even the folks in-universe aren't entirely sure how it works. I remember Luke's initial discussion with Obi-wan in Ep. IV.

    Luke: "You mean it controls your actions?"
    Obi-wan: "Partially. But it also obeys your commands".

    In-universe there's probably a whole continuum of viewpoints from those who believe the Force can be commanded, to those who believe that humans are merely the tools of the force without free will of their own. I think it's one of those questions that's best pondered but not definitively answered. If Lucas DID spell out the exact relationship, I suspect it would disappoint many of us.

    If I may put this on the spectrum of free will vs. fate, I suspect that Aotrs and you are both closer towards the free will end of the spectrum than I am.

    Although I'm not at the extreme end of the scale. I think that humans in the GFFA do have free will and their individual actions, both force-sensitive and non- have meaning to the larger picture. I do, however, believe that those actions impinge on the force, leave echoes in it, and those echoes shape the destinies of people. Tarkin destroyed Alderaan of his own free will, not because the Force compelled him to. And now for the rest of his life his destiny will be shaped by that fact. The Force is not going to interact with him the same way as it would if he had not done so. Which means , perhaps, that "lucky" encounters, chance meetings, and rolls of the dice, will not happen for him as they might otherwise have done. So it's not that humans in the GFFA are slaves of destiny, but they are not totally free to choose as they will, because their choices and the choices of others have consequences. Not just logical, rational consequences, but consequences in the Force as well. Tarkin's action made such an echo in the Force that Obi-wan was momentarily stunned on the Falcon light-years away. And I wonder if the Death Star battle might have turned out otherwise than it did if Tarkin hadn't made such a massive deposit in the Bad Karma bank.

    I should also emphasize that we're talking about the GFFA and not about real life. I suspect real-life metaphysics have the same relationship to GFFA metaphysics as real-life science does to GFFA science -- useful as a thought experiment or for a story, but it doesn't bear too close scrutiny.

    Respectfully,

    Brian P.
    Last edited by pendell; 2012-11-08 at 11:17 AM.
    "Opportunities to do good are everywhere but the darkness is where the light needs to be".

    -- Eliezer Yudkowski, author of "Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality"

  9. - Top - End - #399
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Hopeless View Post
    Sorry the idea they could detect the force potential via a handy device meant there should have been no way any Jedi could have escaped detection and yes it definitely came out of nowhere!
    Actually, the idea of a Force-detecting machine has precedence in the EU, though the detection was more mystical than genetic.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    We have an official confirmation that Michael Arndt (Little Miss Sunshine, Toy Story 3) is doing the screenplay.
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