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  1. - Top - End - #121
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    Given most of the EU is garbage and only a small minority of star wars fans knows anything about them, I'm not too worried about them just disregarding EU and going for a new story. As someone else said, let that mouse shaped wrecking ball come through and build something better on top of it.
    Except that the early parts of the EU are among the best bits of Star Wars, like, period. I'm not a massive detractor of the prequels, but even I don't think they compare to the the Thrawn trilogy (which is, I think, probably the very best of Star Wars) or the X-Wing novels (or TIE Fighter, the appreciation of which and Imperial loyalty from which makes the prequels more barable).

    Most of the more recent stuff is crap, yes, but blanket eliminating it is throwing the baby out with the bath-water.

    If they're really gonna go ahead and overwrite the best bits with more crap (because, even without Disney and their likely lack of interference, I don't really trust the current crop of SW writers to make it anything more than passable (as even the formerly pretty good Clone Wars is starting to go downhill), then I for one, will not be interested in seeing anything they put out, anymore than I'm interested in the post NJO-novels and continuity.

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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    I think you underestimate Star Wars fans and the interest in the EU. They haven't come out with so much material in the past decades because only a few people buy them.
    I'm just going to throw out there that everyone I know has watched Star Wars, most would call themselves fans. Out of all of them, I'm probably the one who's read the most EU, and that's under 10 novels I've read. And of those there's nothing I've read that I wouldn't mind seeing completely ignored for an official movie.

    There's enough EU fans out there to make it profitable for publishers, but it is not a large portion of the star wars fan base. And this all assumes that the EU fan base would refuse to go see the new movies if they weren't based on EU, which is something I doubt. Barring that assumption, whether the EU base is large or not doesn't matter, because it's still sales.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    I think you underestimate Star Wars fans and the interest in the EU. They haven't come out with so much material in the past decades because only a few people buy them.
    Seems like you sort of contradicted your point here.
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  4. - Top - End - #124
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Seerow View Post
    I'm just going to throw out there that everyone I know has watched Star Wars, most would call themselves fans. Out of all of them, I'm probably the one who's read the most EU, and that's under 10 novels I've read. And of those there's nothing I've read that I wouldn't mind seeing completely ignored for an official movie.

    There's enough EU fans out there to make it profitable for publishers, but it is not a large portion of the star wars fan base. And this all assumes that the EU fan base would refuse to go see the new movies if they weren't based on EU, which is something I doubt. Barring that assumption, whether the EU base is large or not doesn't matter, because it's still sales.
    Ticking off a fanbase that has kept the franchise relevant for years even without non-EU material is not the best idea Disney could do. Even if the movie can be successful, they could potentially make more without doing it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    Seems like you sort of contradicted your point here.
    You misread, I'm saying that the reason why they've come out with so much material in the past decades is not because only a few people bought them. I see the sentence structure can be a bit confusing, I meant it in a "I'm not standing out here for my health" sort of way.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    But you know whats going to make the BIG bucks? Common people who care none for any of the EU.

    And the people that love the EU? Are all torn apart hating some parts and loving others.

    Whats another fracturing of an ALREADY hugely fractured fanbase.

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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    But you know whats going to make the BIG bucks? Common people who care none for any of the EU.
    Common people who don't know much about Star Wars other than the movies would come in anyway (see: the prequels) unless they're totally horrible movies (even then, you could probably win them over with special effect, see: the prequels/Michael Bay's Transformers). Ignoring the EU doesn't do a lot for that part of the audience either way.

    Whats another fracturing of an ALREADY hugely fractured fanbase.
    Why don't you ask Wizards of the Coast that?
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Ticking off a fanbase that has kept the franchise relevant for years even without non-EU material is not the best idea Disney could do. Even if the movie can be successful, they could potentially make more without doing it.

    You misread, I'm saying that the reason why they've come out with so much material in the past decades is not because only a few people bought them. I see the sentence structure can be a bit confusing, I meant it in a "I'm not standing out here for my health" sort of way.
    Ah the difficulties of inflection on the internet.

    And honestly, as much as it will upset some people, those who will stop reading the EU as a result are in all likelihood a vanishingly small minority. Especially when stacked against all the people who will start buying lightsabers, action figures, and other merchandise when Disney pulls out a blockbuster. Not to mention all the books that will be written with the new canon that people who are interested in reading books about Star Wars will buy. Besides, the Prequels stuck with the name Coruscant and otherwise pretty much ignored the EU. Commercially they were still successful. It's possible they'll reference the Thrawn trilogy. That's about the best anyone can hope for.
    Last edited by Xondoure; 2012-10-31 at 09:34 AM.
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  8. - Top - End - #128
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    And honestly, as much as it will upset some people, those who will stop reading the EU as a result are in all likelihood a vanishingly small minority. Especially when stacked against all the people who will start buying lightsabers, action figures, and other merchandise when Disney pulls out a blockbuster. Not to mention all the books that will be written with the new canon that people who are interested in reading books about Star Wars will buy.
    That's exactly the target audience they'll be ticking off if they just say "All EU material set after X date is wrong", whether explicitly or if they just imply it by making future events impossible. And it's not like people haven't been buying lightsabers, toys, ect already.

    Besides, the Prequels stuck with the name Coruscant and otherwise pretty much ignored the EU. Commercially they were still successful. It's possible they'll reference the Thrawn trilogy. That's about the best anyone can hope for.
    However, the prequels didn't toss out the EU entirely, which is my concern here. If the new movies just result in some retcons and tweaks here and there, but don't render everything pointless, I don't really have any problems. That sort of thing is nothing new to the Star Wars continutity. So maybe it won't be an issue, Disney did speak postively in the press release about the richness of the Star Wars universe, thousands of characters living on thousands of planets, so it seems that material has some value to them.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.Epic View Post
    That's not true! That's impossible!
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    That's exactly the target audience they'll be ticking off if they just say "All EU material set after X date is wrong", whether explicitly or if they just imply it by making future events impossible. And it's not like people haven't been buying lightsabers, toys, ect already.

    However, the prequels didn't toss out the EU entirely, which is my concern here. If the new movies just result in some retcons and tweaks here and there, but don't render everything pointless, I don't really have any problems. That sort of thing is nothing new to the Star Wars continutity. So maybe it won't be an issue, Disney did speak postively in the press release about the richness of the Star Wars universe, thousands of characters living on thousands of planets, so it seems that material has some value to them.
    Given the swing of merchandise after a movie release, people will be buying a lot more lightsabers. Chances are they'll be buying a lot more books too. As was mentioned before, fans are often their own worst enemies.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    Given the swing of merchandise after a movie release, people will be buying a lot more lightsabers. Chances are they'll be buying a lot more books too. As was mentioned before, fans are often their own worst enemies.
    The increased attention would help sales whether or not they throw out the EU though. Doesn't change whether causing a backlash from long-time fans is a good thing or not.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    Given the swing of merchandise after a movie release, people will be buying a lot more lightsabers. Chances are they'll be buying a lot more books too. As was mentioned before, fans are often their own worst enemies.
    They don't call them fanatics for nothing.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    The increased attention would help sales whether or not they throw out the EU though. Doesn't change whether causing a backlash from long-time fans is a good thing or not.
    It's a small thing, and one they're likely to do because when has Hollywood ever cared about breaking with literature? Especially when the books are merely a side effect of the phenomena they're trying to cash in on.

    Look at all the changes (many of which are director/producer fiat and totally unnecessary) made to the Harry Potter series. Talk about pissing off the fans, and yet... they seem to have been quite popular.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    I feel that Disney will not want to alienate certain parts of the Star Wars fanbase. They are a company and alienating certain groups does not help them at all unless the costs outweigh the benefits. This leads me to believe that though indications are that the new movies will be an original story they may not run separate from the EU but concurrently. Maybe these new films will be focusing on some of the other parts on the Star Wars Universe that are not covered in the EU.

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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    At this point in time the movie franchise can only go up in quality, as far I'm concerned.

    I suppose they're not including the Star War: Clone Wars animated movie as one of the 7? I guess I wouldn't either.

    I haven't a clue where to take the franchise, not having read the books and such. The Bioware games were enjoyable as was the first Force Unleashed, something like that would please me.

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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    The increased attention would help sales whether or not they throw out the EU though. Doesn't change whether causing a backlash from long-time fans is a good thing or not.
    Thing is that the BIGGEST BIGGEST bucks come from the little 10 year old kids that could not care less about some stupid book.

    They will buy over 500$ of Star wars Merchandise yearly on toys and knick knacks and so many other things that give money.

    Compared to a guy buying 1-2 30$ books a year at best its much more target friendly.

    Yet I have hope that the newest movie might not suck.



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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    It's a small thing, and one they're likely to do because when has Hollywood ever cared about breaking with literature? Especially when the books are merely a side effect of the phenomena they're trying to cash in on.

    Look at all the changes (many of which are director/producer fiat and totally unnecessary) made to the Harry Potter series. Talk about pissing off the fans, and yet... they seem to have been quite popular.
    That's a bit of a different senario, those are adaptations of the books, with some changes, yes, but they don't totally contradict the books. If they had fundementally changed the characters or events, they may not have been so well recieved. I'm wouldn't be worried at all about changes that happen in the shift in medium if they were to adapt say, the Thrawn Trilogy. My concerns are about saying the Thrawn Trilogy no longer has a place in the official timeline.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Thing is that the BIGGEST BIGGEST bucks come from the little 10 year old kids that could not care less about some stupid book.
    Which means they could not throw out the EU and still get the money from those kids' parents.

    They will buy over 500$ of Star wars Merchandise yearly on toys and knick knacks and so many other things that give money.

    Compared to a guy buying 1-2 30$ books a year at best its much more target friendly.
    You think the serious star wars fans that care about the EU don't buy toys and knick-knacks? Or pay $100 to get themselves encased in carbonite?
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2012-10-31 at 10:32 AM.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Which means they could not throw out the EU and still get the money from those kids' parents.
    Meh. I don't like the EU either. Its stupidly overdetailed, and it makes it impossible to tell a new story.

    They won't be able to tell ANYTHING new without destroying 50 comic continuities in the process. Just accept it as an alternate reality.

    You think the serious star wars fans that care about the EU don't buy toys and knick-knacks?
    They do, but its more the "Manchild demographic" and the "Child" demographic is MUCH bigger.

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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Morbis Meh View Post
    ...We need to kill this with fire... Disney will ruin Star wars more than Lucas ever could...
    I'm going to go out on a limb here, and forgive me if I jinx it, and say that's impossible.

    But seriously, Disney and Lucasfilm are a good fit, or at least as good a fit as Disney and Marvel. Specifically, Disney is good about getting subsidiary studios into shape with scads of merchandising money. Given Lucasfilm's mostly action figure-and-Lego-based revenue, it seems like a natural fit.

    EDIT: Wow I missed like four entire pages there.
    Last edited by Nerd-o-rama; 2012-10-31 at 10:56 AM.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    That's a bit of a different senario, those are adaptations of the books, with some changes, yes, but they don't totally contradict the books. If they had fundementally changed the characters or events, they may not have been so well recieved. I'm wouldn't be worried at all about changes that happen in the shift in medium if they were to adapt say, the Thrawn Trilogy. My concerns are about saying the Thrawn Trilogy no longer has a place in the official timeline.

    Which means they could not throw out the EU and still get the money from those kids' parents.

    You think the serious star wars fans that care about the EU don't buy toys and knick-knacks? Or pay $100 to get themselves encased in carbonite?
    The problem is the amount of die hard star wars fans that won't see these movies / will stop buying books? A very small percentage. My guess? less than a hundred people (more will stop, but they would anyways.) The amount of die hard star wars fans versus the more general population that will appear in masses to see this movie? Again, a very small percentage.

    There's no reason at all for Disney not to make original concepts, and plenty of reason for them to do so.

    Me? I'm just excited for the next lego Star Wars.
    Last edited by Xondoure; 2012-10-31 at 10:58 AM.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Meh. I don't like the EU either. Its stupidly overdetailed, and it makes it impossible to tell a new story.

    They won't be able to tell ANYTHING new without destroying 50 comic continuities in the process. Just accept it as an alternate reality.
    The first problem exists whether or not they throw out the EU. If a story's already been done, it's already been done, whether or not it's canon. As for the second, you exaggerate the difficulty. There's still plenty of room to work, as the ongoing stream of material coming out now proves. That doesn't even take into consideration the equally valid idea of adapting some of that material. And I wouldn't really have a problem with them doing a full alternate universe reboot, like JJ Abrams Star Trek or the many different Transformers continuities, as opposed to overwriting a single official continuity.

    They do, but its more the "Manchild demographic" and the "Child" demographic is MUCH bigger.
    Which, even if true, doesn't change that throwing out the EU doesn't really do much to help the child demographic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    The problem is the amount of die hard star wars fans that won't see these movies / will stop buying books? A very small percentage. My guess? less than a hundred people (more will stop, but they would anyways.) The amount of die hard star wars fans versus the more general population that will appear in masses to see this movie? Again, a very small percentage.

    There's no reason at all for Disney not to make original concepts, and plenty of reason for them to do so.
    See, I think you have that backwards. Would more people be turned off by them adapting the Thrawn Trilogy, or by them saying "***** the Thrawn Trilogy, Mara Jade, ect and so on. We're doing whatever the heck we want"? And the movie would certainly be where dropping the EU would hurt them the least, but in the licensed material you've mentioned? There the more serious fans have a bigger impact. Do you think that George Lucas, despite his general lack of caring about the EU, would have gone to the trouble of letting it into canon and putting people in charge of keeping track of all of it if he didn't get some benefit out of it? He could have just gone the Star Trek route and said basically anything not on screen isn't canon, but for some reason (I'm betting money) he didn't.

    EDIT: Also, you can still have orginial concepts without throwing out everything that came before.
    Last edited by Reverent-One; 2012-10-31 at 11:20 AM.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    You think the serious star wars fans that care about the EU don't buy toys and knick-knacks? Or pay $100 to get themselves encased in carbonite?
    $ 100 is nothing for a real fan of a series.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-10-31 at 11:15 AM.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Wait... Disney paid Lucas? You sure it's not the other way around? I'd have thought Star Wars was such a tarnished name by now that it qualified as a charity case... or a tax writeoff at least.

    More seriously, Disney is a huge name in entertainment, which, when I interact with my uncle and his family who boycott it, I realize just how widespread their empire looms. I also remember when they acquired Marvel there was a ton of predictions of doom and gloom and that all banged out alright so far.

    Besides, it's not like Lucas was doing Star Wars any favors, and if anyone can reverse 15 years of momentum, it's going to have to be someone with enough money to attract the best talent. I'm not holding my breath, but this is as welcome of news as I think Star Wars as a brand could possibly hope for.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    See, I think you have that backwards. Would more people be turned off by them adapting the Thrawn Trilogy, or by them saying "***** the Thrawn Trilogy, Mara Jade, ect and so on. We're doing whatever the heck we want"? And the movie would certainly be where dropping the EU would hurt them the least, but in the licensed material you've mentioned? There the more serious fans have a bigger impact. Do you think that George Lucas, despite his general lack of caring about the EU, would have gone to the trouble of letting it into canon and putting people in charge of keeping track of all of it if he didn't get some benefit out of it? He could have just gone the Star Trek route and said basically anything not on screen isn't canon, but for some reason (I'm betting money) he didn't.
    And like I said, if this were true than every Hollywood movie adaptation would be a helluva lot more faithful to the source material. As long as they have the Star Wars name recognition, they don't care. The plot they use will be one which they feel appeals to the greatest possible demographic, and will include lots of new things to sell toys of. Will they try to make the story engaging? Of course, but that doesn't mean they'll tie themselves down to the smallest minority in their fan base.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    The first problem exists whether or not they throw out the EU. If a story's already been done, it's already been done, whether or not it's canon.
    Yup. So since its already been

    As for the second, you exaggerate the difficulty.
    There is a backstory for the hassler at the bar in episode 4.

    Im not exagurating.

    There's still plenty of room to work
    Then its a game of Limbo:

    "Uh can we do this?"

    "No, Comic Issue 3124 that nobody cares about says we can't"

    The movie will have to BEND around continuity.

    And I wouldn't really have a problem with them doing a full alternate universe reboot, like JJ Abrams Star Trek or the many different Transformers continuities, as opposed to overwriting a single official continuity.
    There really is no difference. Do you REALY care about some stupid stamp of approval if its cannon or not? I WANT a new story.

    Which, even if true, doesn't change that throwing out the EU doesn't really do much to help the child demographic.
    True. You are correct on that.

    But I would prefer a NEW story. Not something that I can read already.

    I don't care much for adaptations. Unless they make a work more accessible I prefer originality.

    Because movies are a different medium. They can take advantage of different things.

    If the new story is tailor made for those advantages it will turn out better.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    And like I said, if this were true than every Hollywood movie adaptation would be a helluva lot more faithful to the source material. As long as they have the Star Wars name recognition, they don't care. The plot they use will be one which they feel appeals to the greatest possible demographic, and will include lots of new things to sell toys of. Will they try to make the story engaging? Of course, but that doesn't mean they'll tie themselves down to the smallest minority in their fan base.
    Do you think every hollywood movie adaptation has performed as well as it's makers had thought it would? Or has a strong following in licensed material? Or had the existing fanbase that Star Wars does to begin with? Besides, again, I'm not talking about adaptations that leave main concepts intact. I'm talking about major, fundemental changes that ignore existing material and render it obsolete. I think you're creating a false dilemma, as if their only choices are to throw out the EU entirely to appeal to the mainstream audience or to try to appeal to existing fans. I see no reason why that must be the case.

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Yup. So since its already been
    Either you're agreeing with me, or this sentence is incomplete.

    There is a backstory for the hassler at the bar in episode 4.

    Im not exagurating.
    I'm well aware. Which prevents them from telling his continuing story, if they thought it was a good idea, how? Or showing it in a different format and expanding it? Like I said, the difficulty you ascribe to making new material that doesn't totally throw out the existing stuff is overblown.

    Then its a game of Limbo:

    "Uh can we do this?"

    "No, Comic Issue 3124 that nobody cares about says we can't"

    The movie will have to BEND around continuity.
    Because no new material, like the prequels, or the Clone Wars show, or various supplementary materials have ever retconned anything? Seriously, stuff like that happens all the time. The EU goes on. That's an entirely different matter than tossing the whole EU (or very large sections of it) out. I would fully expect the movie to be treated as G-level canon.

    There really is no difference. Do you REALY care about some stupid stamp of approval if its cannon or not? I WANT a new story.
    I care if they retcon characters and stories I care about out of existence. Nothing's stopping them from telling new stories, I'm just saying I don't want to get rid of the existing ones.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Do you think every hollywood movie adaptation has performed as well as it's makers had thought it would? Or has a strong following in licensed material? Or had the existing fanbase that Star Wars does to begin with? Besides, again, I'm not talking about adaptations that leave main concepts intact. I'm talking about major, fundemental changes that ignore existing material and render it obsolete. I think you're creating a false dilemma, as if their only choices are to throw out the EU entirely to appeal to the mainstream audience or to try to appeal to existing fans. I see no reason why that must be the case.

    I'm well aware. Which prevents them from telling his continuing story, if they thought it was a good idea, how? Or showing it in a different format and expanding it? Like I said, the difficulty you ascribe to making new material that doesn't totally throw out the existing stuff is overblown.

    Because no new material, like the prequels, or the Clone Wars show, or various supplementary materials have ever retconned anything? Seriously, stuff like that happens all the time. The EU goes on. That's an entirely different matter than tossing the whole EU (or very large sections of it) out. I would fully expect the movie to be treated as G-level canon.

    I care if they retcon characters and stories I care about out of existence. Nothing's stopping them from telling new stories, I'm just saying I don't want to get rid of the existing ones.
    As long as it's recognizable as Star Wars, they'll be fine. They don't need the EU for that. Reference it? Perhaps. But I guarantee plenty of novels will find their canon downgraded.
    Last edited by Xondoure; 2012-10-31 at 11:49 AM.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Reverent-One View Post
    Either you're agreeing with me, or this sentence is incomplete.
    Sorry its incomplete. I meant since its already done, then nothing will prevent them from always existing.


    I'm well aware. Which prevents them from telling his continuing story, if they thought it was a good idea, how?
    It binds them in one direction. They can't follow up on ANY of the characters in new ways because everything has been filled in already.

    Because no new material, like the prequels, or the Clone Wars show, or various supplementary materials have ever retconned anything?
    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....Yeah. Never retconned anything.

    Because they exist in "Comfortable" zones. Areas that won't matter in the end at all. The clone wars don't matter and none of the developments that happen there don't. At the end of the day Anikin becomes Darth Vader.

    But here, its a already built up roadblock of continuity. They can either limbo and tango through it, giving us nothing new except live action, or they can skip that cage altogether and make something new.


    I care if they retcon characters and stories I care about out of existence. Nothing's stopping them from telling new stories, I'm just saying I don't want to get rid of the existing ones.
    They are not retconned out of existence. They exist in one form or another. If an author wants to follow up on a continuity he can. Its just a DIFFERENT continuity.

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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Sorry its incomplete. I meant since its already done, then nothing will prevent them from always existing.

    It binds them in one direction. They can't follow up on ANY of the characters in new ways because everything has been filled in already.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA....Yeah. Never retconned anything.

    Because they exist in "Comfortable" zones. Areas that won't matter in the end at all. The clone wars don't matter and none of the developments that happen there don't. At the end of the day Anikin becomes Darth Vader.

    But here, its a already built up roadblock of continuity. They can either limbo and tango through it, giving us nothing new except live action, or they can skip that cage altogether and make something new.

    They are not retconned out of existence. They exist in one form or another. If an author wants to follow up on a continuity he can. Its just a DIFFERENT continuity.
    I think you misunderstood. He's saying he's okay with retcons, he just doesn't want to see everything post OT entirely thrown out.
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    Default Re: New Star Wars Movie in 2015

    Quote Originally Posted by Xondoure View Post
    I think you misunderstood. He's saying he's okay with retcons, he just doesn't want to see everything post OT entirely thrown out.
    Its not thrown out. Unless Disney makes a Policy of never touching the other stuff ever again its just alternate stories.

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