Page 2 of 2 FirstFirst 12
Results 31 to 55 of 55
  1. - Top - End - #31
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Zherog's Avatar

    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Bensalem, PA
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    The class has favored enemy (called "preferred target"), but only gets one. And so what that you already have a magic bow by level 9? Now your magic bow is more magicky.
    John Ling
    Frog God Games Lead Pathfinder Developer

    Note: unless explicitly stated otherwise, opinions in my posts are my own and not those of Frog God Games.

  2. - Top - End - #32
    Banned
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Sydnah, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Zherog View Post
    The class has favored enemy (called "preferred target"), but only gets one. And so what that you already have a magic bow by level 9? Now your magic bow is more magicky.
    Actually, by level 9, they should have both a magic bow and magic arrows.

    Otherwise they're not really an archer, as they've been spending wealth on stuff other than archery.

  3. - Top - End - #33
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NamelessNPC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Casteland, Argentina
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Shaman (from Adamant Entertainment) Tier 1 (but see below)

    Chasis: Non lawful, 3/4 bab, good fort and will, 4 skill ranks per level, sub par skills, simple weapons, light armor and hide (but not chain shirt), bucklers and light shields, divine casting.

    This is what some people have wanted for a long time, discussing the unfairness of the Druid. Scratch wild shape, animal companion and all the other class features except spellcasting. Bam! You get the shaman.

    In exchange, you get some complicated spellcasting system (that I'm sure some other classes have) where you choose your spells known for the day and you can use your slots per day any way you like. So, it gains some on the fly versatility. Now, there are some problems with this, because the Spells per day table indicates you can cast like the Druid as opposed to Sorcerer (2nd lvl spells at CL 3) and the Spells known table indicates you know 0 2nd lvl spells at CL 3. It may mean that it is modified by your WIS bonus, but it isn't stated anywhere, and I don't think it's common for ability bonuses to improve your amount of spells known. Whatever. You also can choose a domain every day, you get the powers as a cleric of that level, and add the spells to your daily spell list.

    The druid spell list is not so hot, but the best domain for the day each day AND the versatility of changing your spells known add a lot, so this is probably tier 1, I guess? It also depends on what the heck the spells known table means, being 1/2 level behind is not trivial.

  4. - Top - End - #34
    Halfling in the Playground
     
    Roncorps's Avatar

    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Canada, Quebec
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    What about the War Master ? Full BAB, 2/3 great save, 4 skill pts, full weapon/armor proficiency (without exotic w and tower shield).

    I'm not that good to see if his ability are kind of useful. His "Battle Tactics" seem a little limited, with a use of 4+CHA+2(levels) rounds (so 8 rounds level 1 at 18 CHA to minimum 46 rounds at level 20).
    Last edited by Roncorps; 2012-11-03 at 05:40 PM.

  5. - Top - End - #35
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roncorps View Post
    What about the War Master ? Full BAB, 2/3 great save, 4 skill pts, full weapon/armor proficiency (without exotic w and tower shield).

    I'm not that good to see if his ability are kind of useful. His "Battle Tactics" seem a little limited, with a use of 4+CHA+2(levels) rounds (so 8 rounds level 1 at 18 CHA to minimum 46 rounds at level 20).
    I have not played or dmed the war master, and my op-fu is rather sub-op, so take all this with a grain of salt. When reading this guy I just cant help but think he's a really sub op party buffer. His abilities do not stack up to a full casters buffing, and his abilities without a party make him nothing more than an unoptimized fighter. Having said that, there are a couple things that stand out which makes me think he'd be great in limited environments. That set of circumstances is as a general type character in a war type setting (red hand of doom, kingmaker) IF he has leadership, the born leader talent, and dips three levels into the Warlord class for 2d6 inspiration and other goodies. With that build you would have a real army that actually lets the level 1 minions accomplish something. Given all of that, I'd still say there are better minionmancers out there, so overall he is a miss, t4 max, probably t5. Oddly enough, I still think he would be fun to play... And would be great in a gestalt build. Would I allow it into a game? Sure.

  6. - Top - End - #36
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Quote Originally Posted by NamelessNPC View Post
    Shaman (from Adamant Entertainment) Tier 1 (but see below)

    Chasis: Non lawful, 3/4 bab, good fort and will, 4 skill ranks per level, sub par skills, simple weapons, light armor and hide (but not chain shirt), bucklers and light shields, divine casting.

    This is what some people have wanted for a long time, discussing the unfairness of the Druid. Scratch wild shape, animal companion and all the other class features except spellcasting. Bam! You get the shaman.

    In exchange, you get some complicated spellcasting system (that I'm sure some other classes have) where you choose your spells known for the day and you can use your slots per day any way you like. So, it gains some on the fly versatility. Now, there are some problems with this, because the Spells per day table indicates you can cast like the Druid as opposed to Sorcerer (2nd lvl spells at CL 3) and the Spells known table indicates you know 0 2nd lvl spells at CL 3. It may mean that it is modified by your WIS bonus, but it isn't stated anywhere, and I don't think it's common for ability bonuses to improve your amount of spells known. Whatever. You also can choose a domain every day, you get the powers as a cleric of that level, and add the spells to your daily spell list.

    The druid spell list is not so hot, but the best domain for the day each day AND the versatility of changing your spells known add a lot, so this is probably tier 1, I guess? It also depends on what the heck the spells known table means, being 1/2 level behind is not trivial.
    If you are going to play the shaman you really need to buy a copy of the product... at lest according to one of the comments on that class page. The poster said that the original source allows basically the same armor as a druid, while the writeup on the shaman says no armor allowed.

    The confusing part of the spells is not that confusing actually. Take level 3 for example: 0 spells known, 2 spells castable a day. That is confusing until you remember that the shaman gets to chose a domain each day. Those castable spells are the domain spell. So for our level 3 shaman with darkness domain he would be able to cast blindness/deafness 2x a day.

    Having not played or dmed this class take this with a grain of salt as well: playable? Yes, seems very fun. Hit/miss? Hit. Tier? 1. Tier one is defined as being able to break the game in many different ways. Level 9 spells from a full spell list like druid qualifies. Extra spells, basically access to every domain in the game, just bumps that up some. He is surely t1.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Novawurmson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    I'm in an alliterative mood, so let's select the Spellblade, Spy, and Swashbuckler.

    Spellblade: Tier 3. Playable, but it's basically a Magus that draws from any spells on the wizard spell list in exchange for just about all of its class features. Pass.

    Spy: Tier 4. Playable. This is basically just a nice Rogue archetype that gives up trap stuff for social interaction and sneakiness. In fact, it'd be even better if you just treat it like an expanded Rogue archetype (like the Ninja), and just let it take Rogue talents. Because it's a Rogue. Seriously. It's still a better Spy than the PF Spy archetype, though. Definitely worth a look if you plan on playing a Rogue.

    Swashbuckler: Tier 5. You know how the 3.5 Swashbuckler got Int to damage, so it actually had a unique class feature? This Swashbuckler just gets some sneak attack, except it only works with fines sable weapons, so it has less build options than a Rogue. This is a pretty sad excuse for a unique class; at best, this should have been a Fighter archetype. Pass.
    Crazed Monk avatar by Elrond.

    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class is in its Tier
    PF Optimization Guides Compendium | Extended Signature (Optimization/Conversion/Homebrew)


    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

  8. - Top - End - #38
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NamelessNPC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Casteland, Argentina
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    If you are going to play the shaman you really need to buy a copy of the product... at lest according to one of the comments on that class page. The poster said that the original source allows basically the same armor as a druid, while the writeup on the shaman says no armor allowed.
    Yeah, I have the book. The rest of the class is correct

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    The confusing part of the spells is not that confusing actually. Take level 3 for example: 0 spells known, 2 spells castable a day. That is confusing until you remember that the shaman gets to chose a domain each day. Those castable spells are the domain spell. So for our level 3 shaman with darkness domain he would be able to cast blindness/deafness 2x a day.
    I don't think that's correct. It says:

    Domain spells do not grant extra daily spells known, although the shaman may select them as part of his daily spell list.
    Spells known is still 0. From your spell list + domain you choose 0 spells for that day.

  9. - Top - End - #39
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Novawurmson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Up next: Scholar, Scout, Shadow Assassin.

    Scholar: Tier 5-6. An absolutely bizarre mish-mash of selectable class features. With good sense, I could see someone putting together a decent melee build from the hodge-podge of options, but it would take far more work than it's worth. Maybe this class could replace the Expert for an NPC class game? Mostly a pass.

    Scout: Tier 4-5. It's a Rogue, only you only (but automatically) get your sneak attack when you attack as a standard action. I could see opening up the few unique "Scout Talents" up to Rogue and Ninjas (and Spies, as mentioned before), or giving the Rogue this ability through a feat/talent/advanced talent. This class is a pass, though.

    Shadow Assassin: Tier 4-5. Ooooh. You're a stealthy guy. 90% of the time you'll be wishing you were a Rogue; then you'll find out about the Dread from Dreamscarred Press and you'll be furious. A couple unique affects that would be better as a Rogue archetype or set of talents. Definite pass.
    Crazed Monk avatar by Elrond.

    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class is in its Tier
    PF Optimization Guides Compendium | Extended Signature (Optimization/Conversion/Homebrew)


    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

  10. - Top - End - #40
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Quote Originally Posted by NamelessNPC View Post
    I don't think that's correct. It says:

    Domain spells do not grant extra daily spells known, although the shaman may select them as part of his daily spell list.


    Spells known is still 0. From your spell list + domain you choose 0 spells for that day.
    Domain spells do not become spells KNOWN. But it specifically says the shaman may select them as part of his daily spell list. A spell known would be one you could chose at any time. A spell you could chose is something you dont know, but have access to because of this ability.

    You almost have to read it that way, otherwise there is no benefit to spells from the domains and it would just tell us that the shaman gets the granted abilities of the domain. If you say that once they chose a domain then all spells become spells known, then the shaman would only have to pick that domain once then never again, because all the spells would be known.

    It all comes down to you dont KNOW the spells on the domain list, you just get to chose them as long as you have access to that domain.

  11. - Top - End - #41
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chained Birds's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    ☢CAUTION☢
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    So, is the Shaman a Hit or a Miss? Sounds like there is too much confusion about how the spells-known thing works for them, so it is now leaning towards a Miss...
    Avatar by Savannah
    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!
    Spoiler: Characters
    Show

    Unfortunately, by November 12th of this year, I will be gone for at least 8-9 weeks. Apologies to all active games I am in.

  12. - Top - End - #42
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Even if the concensus is the spells known thing means they cant cast domain spells unless first takeing it as a known spell (meaning no benefit from domain spells) I still have to say its a hit. It may not be quite as powerful as a druid, but then neither is 95% of classes that are favorites.

    Shaman is very playable, can hold its own in even t1 groups, and has a nice "flavor" to it. Pretty much everything you could ask for in a class.

  13. - Top - End - #43
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Magister: A sorcerer with an unreal number of spells on spell list. Counts as both arcane and divine at the same time. Can wear light armor with no asf. Nice abilities. I wont call it broken, but its, imho, more powerful than wiz/sorc/cleric/druid. In a low to meadium op game it would be a great class, on par with the other t1 classes. In high op it really would blow up. Up to 20 levels of free metamagic? Qualify for both sides of mystic theurge at level 3? Just use a magister and psion then psychic theurge and cerebremancer. 17th level casting on both sides with zero cheese early entry tricks?

    Hit or miss? Its close to being a miss because the potential for abuse, but the potential for a great character concept in low to med op games makes me call it a hit... barely.
    Tier? Easily t1. Getting up close to the mythical t0.5 in a high op game.
    Allow players to play? Depends on how high op the game was. If there are fighters and rogues in the group, no. If there are pouncebarians, mailmen, batman, and similar builds... yea, he fits well with them. Come to think of it, the more I look at this incarnum book, the more I want to mix a magister in with both sapphire hierarch and soulcaster. With no early entry stuff he'd still end up 18 level magister casting and 17 level totem meldshaping. Sounds fun...

  14. - Top - End - #44
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Novawurmson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Up next: Pugilist, Martial Artist, Malefactor Edit: ...and Warlock, and Shaman

    Pugilist: Tier 5-6. I really would like to see the styles turned into a series of feats, but this class has little else going for it. In a tier 5-only game, this could be a fun class; otherwise, it's a pass.

    Martial Artist: Tier 5-6. This is a Monk with almost everything remotely magical stripped away from it in exchange for full BAB. Just plead with your DM to make your Monk full BAB and shy away from this class.

    Malefactor: Tier 3-4. Huh. There's a lot of potential to screw over your party (you debuff all creature's saves within your Aura of Misfortune, for example), but after reading so many classes with full BAB and no class features, I have to take a moment to applaud a class with so many unique and creative abilities. I would be very careful about using this class (and potentially homebrew some feats that lessen the potential penalties you throw on your allies), because a -5 penalty on your allies' saves at level 18 has the potential for a TPK; consider some of the archetypes that trade out Aura of Misfortune as well (I'd tentatively recommend Moirae). With good communication between DM and PC and good communication between PC and party, I would recommend this class for Hit status.


    Edit: Finishinged these three up tomorrow. right now!

    Edit: To avoid double-posting, here's my take on the Warlock!

    For the Warlock: Tier [Unplayable]. A very poorly worded class that swings wildly with how you interpret the rules around it. How many times can you use each school ability? At-will unless otherwise noted? 1/day unless otherwise noted? Summon Monster II 1/day is nigh worthless, even with a duration of 24 hours; Summoner Monster II at will is nigh-broken, even without the duration increase (if you think Summon Monster II at will with a duration of 24 hours could be broken, look at Summoning Master). What school abilities allow a save? It says you don't need a lower level school ability to take a higher level school ability, but some school abilities seem to modify a lower-level ability; for example, if I take Arcane Eruption, do I have to take Arcane Bolt? Phantasmal Demon funtions as Phantasmal Killer...only the creature is not subjected to instant death? What is "magic resistance?" What does "Damage Reduction /Cold" or "Damage Reduction /Fire" do? This is a poorly designed and terribly edited class; use the 3.5 Warlock or one of the many excellent PF conversions for it on GitP, please. If I haven't been clear enough, this class is a miss.

    For the SGG Shaman: [Unplayable] (I think). Holy mother of Cayden Cailean, this class is complicated. I really wish there was a more concise explanation of the mechanics of the class with all of the fluff removed, because as it's written on the SRD, expect to spend at least an hour or two reading it and rereading it.

    Some major points:

    1. The class should have gotten its core feature (Summon Spirit) at level one, and most of its features earlier. Level 1-3 sucks. You're basically a Druid with no spells. In general, abilities come staggered at strange intervals. Your bonus feats are useless filler there to keep you from getting your worthwhile abilities at appropriate levels. Spirit Heal is written like a Magic: The Gathering card. Xd6? Really? Oh, well. It's a decent ability that comes way too late to count on it (surprise).

    That's not to say that you don't get cool things; you can pick up any feat and use it for a limited number of rounds per day. I *think* you can pick up any spell (arcane or divine) up to level 9 and use it a limited number of times per day, but it requires at least two skill checks and some DM intervention. Which brings me to my next point.

    2. This class seems to require a lot of DM intervention. So, to "prepare spells" you try to bind nearby spirits. However, what said spirits offer and the difficulty of binding them is arbitrarily set by the DM, the best I can see (except for the spell-granting spirits). What happens when the shaman fails to dominate a spirit and the spirit possesses the shaman? The sample spirits only make this more confusing. +5 natural armor or +4 Diplomacy, Gather Information [sic] and Sense Motive? Where did it say you could get that with a spirit? My final word on the matter shall be this:

    Hunt as Pack: Medium Spirit, Charisma 3

    Spoiler
    Show
    This type of spirit is reserved for the most powerful hunters of the Wolf Clan. Tethered to the remnant of a wolf’s kill, it is used to allow a hunting group to function as a pack mind during the pursuit and kill of game. It functions similarly to the Message spell, but does not allow a verbal message; rather it uses a form of implied communication. Strategy can be conveyed through a subtle hand-wave, a nod, or even a look. When moving in for the kill, the intent is understood as though the hunters are functioning as one. One message per hunt, per hunter can be conveyed in this manner per turn, usually something like “You two circle around through those trees and drive the herd this way, we’ll pick them off as they cross over the stream.” All that is required is that the recipient see the sender at the time the instruction is sent. This spirit is also useful in combat, which is why Wolf Clan members do battle in the same groups in which they hunt.


    TL;DR - You cast a spell that allows you to non-verbally communicate with someone who can see you. This somehow is an honored spirit of the Wolf Clan; apparently, the Wolf Clan hasn't heard of sign language (or, you know, gesturing).

    3. You need to make 2 skill checks consistently: Knowledge (Spirits) and Perform (Ceremony); guess where your 2 skill points/level are going! Even the Druid gets better.

    Most of what this class offers is fluffy but mechanically frustrating. I feel like at low levels, you would have been better taking levels in Expert, and at high levels, there's potential abuse with taking any 9th level spell, but ultimately, casting one 9th level spell a few times a day is not worth the effort of taking levels in this class. With a lenient DM, you could potentially get any ability whatsoever from a spirit, but I'm still not sure it would save this class.

    I'm willing to change my judgment of the class if someone can point me to concrete rules on how to construct spirit (besides the ones that replicate spells) or give me a reasonable explanation of how the class is supposed to function when with a Charisma of 20, the best you can hope for is one level 5 spell and one level 6 spell (or one level 9 spell and one level 2 spell). I feel like they only playtested this class in a sweet spot of about level 4-8, when you could pick up a smattering of level 2-4 spells, have an animal companion, etc. Outside of that sweet spot, things start dropping off fast.

    This class has amazing fluff, but needs a complete rewrite on crunch; I sadly label it a miss.
    Last edited by Novawurmson; 2012-11-04 at 09:16 PM.
    Crazed Monk avatar by Elrond.

    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class is in its Tier
    PF Optimization Guides Compendium | Extended Signature (Optimization/Conversion/Homebrew)


    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

  15. - Top - End - #45
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    NamelessNPC's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Casteland, Argentina
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Quote Originally Posted by AdamT View Post
    Domain spells do not become spells KNOWN. But it specifically says the shaman may select them as part of his daily spell list. A spell known would be one you could chose at any time. A spell you could chose is something you dont know, but have access to because of this ability.

    You almost have to read it that way, otherwise there is no benefit to spells from the domains and it would just tell us that the shaman gets the granted abilities of the domain. If you say that once they chose a domain then all spells become spells known, then the shaman would only have to pick that domain once then never again, because all the spells would be known.

    It all comes down to you dont KNOW the spells on the domain list, you just get to chose them as long as you have access to that domain.
    Yes, I know all of that, we were discussing a different thing: the amount of 2nd level spells known you get at CL3. You think that you can cast your domain spell. I think that you can't because it SPECIFICALLY says you do not add your domain spells to your spells known per day (that is, the amount of different spells you will know and can choose to cast that day). Each day, choose from your Spell List+Domains a number of spells equal to your Spells Known, and you can choose to cast any of them in whatever combination until you use all the slots. If your Spells Known are 0, and you DO NOT add anything to that number, then that number is still 0.


    Edit: From your later post I think where the confusion comes from. See, this class is terribly edited. It's Spells Known list does not function like any other spontaneous caster. You can change it every day, selecting spells from your list and the domains to fill it.
    Last edited by NamelessNPC; 2012-11-04 at 08:18 PM.

  16. - Top - End - #46
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Novawurmson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    A tale of two Knights!

    Sir Adamant Entertainment: Tier 5. Picking up the worst parts of the 3.5 Knight, I see; never attack foes when you have a tactical advantage! It gets a plethora of mediocre class features that mostly come too late to be of use. Please play a Cavalier, Fighter, or Paladin, unless you just love telling your group that you're no longer going to attack the lich because he's running away. Definite pass.

    Sir Tripod Machine: Tier 5. Has a much less restricting code of honor, even if it's completely unnecessary and cumbersome; no alignment restrictions. It also (potentially) gets a mount as a Druid at level 5 - on a mounted-focused class, no less (imagine that)! The Resplendent Powers are interesting, but you can only have one active at a time. I still think Cavalier, Fighter, and Paladin would be better choices, but overall, I'll give it a Hit. A feat that let the Knight have two Replendent Powers at the same time would not be amiss.

    Edit: The Hunter.

    For the Hunter: Tier 4-5. This is just the Ranger with some Sneak Attack instead of spells, no choices for bonus feats, and some pointless skill bonuses. Gee, +2 Perception at level 16; you shouldn't have. Pass.

    Edit: The Gladiator (A Fistful of Denarii version)

    For the Gladiator: Having looked at so many of these AFFOD classes, I'm going to write "Tier 5" without even looking at the class. Let's see how I did...Yes! This is just a glorified Fighter archetype, folks! It just oozes with feats. Dip it for one level and pick up 3 feats! The text and table don't match at least twice that I counted. This class has absolutely nothing unique to offer. Pass it as quickly as possible.

    Edit: I think I should have spaced these out more. I think I'm almost out of classes to rate. On to the Mighty Godling!

    For the Mighty Godling: Tier 3-4. I like the fluff; basically, your the child of a god/blessed by a god/etc., which is an extremely common trope. It's got a solid chassis and the Divine Traits and Scion Talents are excellent, unique, and well written. My only real gripe about it is that often they grant a class feature normally reserved for another class (i.e. granting Oracle Revelations); overall, this class is firmly a Hit.
    Last edited by Novawurmson; 2012-11-04 at 09:35 PM.
    Crazed Monk avatar by Elrond.

    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class is in its Tier
    PF Optimization Guides Compendium | Extended Signature (Optimization/Conversion/Homebrew)


    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

  17. - Top - End - #47
    Banned
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Sydnah, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    would not be amiss.
    I see what you did there.

  18. - Top - End - #48
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chained Birds's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    ☢CAUTION☢
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Well, unless I missed it somewhere, the only class left is the Clever Godling. Special Thanks to Novawurmson for contributing to half of the list and more.

    Seems like Shaman (1) was the most discussed in this thread (surprisingly), but it seems it came out in a Hit... Barely. The Known Spell stuff is still a bit confusing...

    Anyways, you guys were all a big help in finding out whether any of these classes were even playable (Marked with a Tier 0 if unplayable or worse). Just one more left. Who wants to do the Honors?!
    Avatar by Savannah
    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!
    Spoiler: Characters
    Show

    Unfortunately, by November 12th of this year, I will be gone for at least 8-9 weeks. Apologies to all active games I am in.

  19. - Top - End - #49
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    eggs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    I don't know if it would be useful to anybody else, but I threw this into a table so the results can be sorted (by clicking column headers) for quick summaries.
    Last edited by eggs; 2012-11-05 at 09:42 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #50
    Halfling in the Playground
    Join Date
    Aug 2012

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    18 hits with a good representation in each of the tiers. Overall thats not half bad for 3rd party stuff!

    I'd give a writeup on the clever godling, but I've really never been that good at evaluating rogue types. They just never played as powerful as I felt they would, so I'll have to pass on passing judgement there.

    Also, for anyone that wants to play some of the miss classes, with just a little work or in some cases avoiding the cheese, some of those misses become very fun classes as well. Don't rule them out of play consideration without a little thought into it first.

  21. - Top - End - #51
    Banned
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Sydnah, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    As a note, Eggs, you have some stuff on there that is listed as a 'hit' that no-one has reviewed as a hit.

    When Novawurmson says 'pass', I think he means 'pass' as in 'no thanks' not 'pass' as in 'passes the test'.

    Novawurmson is the only person who reviewed the Pugilist, and said it should have been a fighter archetype, and also pass. (i.e. miss)

    Armiger was reviewed by myself and Novawurmson, both of whom gave the class a Miss.

    Corsair I would give a miss - there is nothing unique or interesting about the class, as Novawurmson points out. Technically playable is not the same as a hit.

    As for Time Thief - I probably wasn't clear about this, but a Hit on concept + a Miss on mechanics = Overall Miss. Concept is your initial idea. Mechanics is your mathematical/thematic attempt to create that idea as a class. So a Miss on the class.

    Warlord wasn't called a Miss in the two posts with the name of the class in it, but both said it seemed sub par. Speaking for myself, it looks absolutely terrible. Gives very minor non-scaling or very-slowly-scaling bonuses to everyone, which is nice, if it ever did anything else. Which it does not. Not even worth dipping. Definitely a Miss.

    War Master is even worse. A bunch of crappy abilities that are made even crappier by a tight per day limit. I don't think i'd even want this if they came for free. Definitely a miss.

    Witch Hunter looks more promising - wis to damage class level times per day (per attack, though, not per full attack), dispel magic punch as a full round action at level 5 class level/2 times per day, a bunch of talents... those talents are terrible, though. Like, I don't even really WANT any of them, terrible. And you don't get anything else at all from the class. It's not even the tier 1ness of mages that will stop them from being witch hunted, it's just the fact this class is terrible. Miss.

  22. - Top - End - #52
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    eggs's Avatar

    Join Date
    Feb 2012

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    I should probably throw out some disclaimers that I don't mean to endorse any of those rankings, or to contradict them with the disclaimer. I haven't read the classes, and I haven't read the thread. That's just the OP reformatted for personal use, and posted as an afterthought.

    If the OP or anyone else wants to defend those ratings, they should feel free, but I don't want to give the impression of a say in either direction.
    Last edited by eggs; 2012-11-05 at 01:07 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #53
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Novawurmson's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    I'm actually reviewing the Clever Godling, but I'm having trouble sorting through what's unique about it and what it shares with the other Godlings :P

    Anyway, I feel like there needs to be a third option between "hit" and "miss"; maybe "ball"?

    There are a few classes (the Witch Hunter comes to mind most readily) that are excellently balanced for a low optimization game, but terribly balanced once you get into high/theoretical optimization. If your hunting down necromancers who live in the spooky graveyard, make zombies, and throw debuffs at you, the Witch Hunter thrives; if you're hunting a necromancer who lives in a spooky graveyard, makes zombies, throws debuffs at you, turns invisible, summons demons from other planes, flies, stops time, and teleports around the room, the Witch Hunter has a much harder time without party support/item support, but could still function, potentially - it's just not completely in his class features. I still feel the Witch Hunter would be better than the Fighter in situation 2, they just wouldn't be able to handle it on their own - and they probably shouldn't just be a tier 1 class. Overall, I think the Witch Hunter is a well-designed class, it's just you can't expect a tier 4 to stomp an optimized tier 1 (inherently game breaking class).

    Maybe if there was a stoplight method: Red Light (poor), Yellow Light (care), and Green Light (good)?

    Edit: Clever Godling

    For the Clever Godling: Tier 3-4. Same great fluff, but supposedly from a more Rogue-y perspective. Same list of Divine Traits, which are still good. The problem is that it shares almost all of its Scion Talents with the Mighty Godling, who has full BAB and a d12 HD. Sure, you can pick up things like 1d6 Sneak Attack (once), Trapfinding, and Evasion, but after that... it's just a weaker base. If you really need skill points, play a Human, take Open Minded, and put your favored class bonus points into skill points. This had potential, but they didn't differentiate it enough from the Mighty Godling. I'll give it a Yellow Light: It's a functional, interesting class that's mostly relegated as unnecessary by classes produced in the same book as it.
    Last edited by Novawurmson; 2012-11-05 at 02:32 PM.
    Crazed Monk avatar by Elrond.

    Tier System for Classes | Why Each Class is in its Tier
    PF Optimization Guides Compendium | Extended Signature (Optimization/Conversion/Homebrew)


    Quote Originally Posted by CTrees View Post
    Knowledge (local) being trained only, and not a class skill for many classes, means that your average human may well not be able to identify other humans! This may explain the exceptional quantity of half-human hybrids.

  24. - Top - End - #54
    Banned
     
    SolithKnightGuy

    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Sydnah, Australia
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    The thing I feel makes the Witch Hunter a miss isn't just that it can't actually hunt semi-optimized Witches - it's that the class itself is boring and crappy.

    Personally I don't consider good/medium BAB and 2 good saves to be a class feature. If all the class does is minor stuff, why are you taking levels in it? A paladin makes a MUCH better witch hunter than the Witch Hunter, as they get another stat to saves. As does an inquisitor, because they can ferret out people hiding and do other stuff that might kill a witch.

    Currently the Witch Hunter is more like a Witch Fighter, but even a fighter can select class features and feats to be more thematically appropriate at it's job than the witch hunter.

    I mean, this class gives you some conditional bonuses to saves, if you spend the talents on it, but.. meh? It's just, if you build one of these at level 5, 10, 15... and compare it to any other class, sure, it can swing a sword for marginal damage, but, y'know, so can a warrior. PC classes should not be the same as NPC classes in that regard.

    If they actually wanted to make a witch hunter it should have had some combination of the following;

    Adding a stat to saves

    A way to hide from/be immune to divinations

    Bonus damage versus spellcasters

    Partial (per day or conditional) immunity to blasting spells

    Partial (per day or conditional) immunity to SoD/SoS spells

    The ability to ferret out hiding spellcasters

    Branching out from the original theme at about level 8, to include other stuff (undead, outsiders, other magical stuff like constructs maybe) to shut down or be immune to.

    A few class features that make them work well with churches

    A few class features that make them decent rogues for when the party is not fighting spellcasters/spellcasting outsiders/the product of spells


    It doesn't do ANY of that, and so, miss.

  25. - Top - End - #55
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Chained Birds's Avatar

    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    ☢CAUTION☢
    Gender
    Male

    Default Re: 3rd Party Pathfinder (Hit or Miss?)

    Updated the OP list to have the current standings on what are considered Hits or Misses.

    I could add a "ball" category, but I figure that if you at least think the class is playable from Lvl 1-20 and you would allow a player to choose the class in a campaign where an identical tier leveled Base Class would work (ex: Tier 5 Knight (2) = Tier 5 Fighter), then I feel it is a Hit.

    I'm not expecting a good DM to be okay with the player wanting to play a Knight (2) in a campaign filled with epic level Tier 1s and a party consisting of Tier 1-2 classes, anymore than allowing that player to play a Fighter. It wouldn't be fair to the player in the end...

    -------

    So, now I'm getting a Miss on Witch Hunter. Hmm, maybe.

    Edit: OP updated with eggs's Table and current Miss vs Hit standings on the classes.
    Last edited by Chained Birds; 2012-11-05 at 03:27 PM.
    Avatar by Savannah
    Quote Originally Posted by Karoht View Post
    In soviet dungeon, aboleth farms you!
    Spoiler: Characters
    Show

    Unfortunately, by November 12th of this year, I will be gone for at least 8-9 weeks. Apologies to all active games I am in.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •