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  1. - Top - End - #421
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    As it's been pointed out previously (and repeatedly) over a few different threads...that's just your personal ranking. GW has nothing similar to the Lucasfilm Canonicity Pyramid - everything and nothing is canon, and the only hard rule they seem to actually follow is 'new > old'. This includes the FFG material, the Black Library imprint, and the Codex fluff; the only 'this is unambigiously accurate' material they print is the game rules.
    Again, but material outside of the original creator company's hands is usually deferred to before the tertiary company's hands.

    Just like Third Party DND books like Shadowmagic aren't canon to Forgotten Realms.

    Just like GT isn't canon to mainline Dragonball verse because it doesn't have a manga equivalent, and the only thing Akira Toriyama touched in it was character art.
    Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-11 at 01:09 PM.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    Again, but material outside of the original creator company's hands is usually deferred to before the tertiary company's hands.

    Just like Third Party DND books like Shadowmagic aren't canon to Forgotten Realms.

    Just like GT isn't canon to mainline Dragonball verse because it doesn't have a manga equivalent, and the only thing Akira Toriyama touched in it was character art.
    Since I don't know anything about anime/manga, I won't address that point.

    I've never heard of 'Shadowmagic' as a D&D novel, the only book I can find by that title isn't remotely connected to D&D.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by douglas View Post
    I think he'd at least give the Culture a chance to explain themselves, and seeing how closely their beliefs align with the pre-Heresy Imperial Truth he might ally with them.
    Yes, the ideological doctrine that held up (non-mutated) terran humans as the supreme rulers of the galaxy, supported a galactic-scale xenocidal crusade, and viewed the presence of AI as worthy of glassing planets is definitely consistent with the Culture's views.

    Still, if they heal Rowboat we'll finally have someone with enough raw Mary Sue power to actually put up a real fight. Short of just having the Illuminati turn the Emprah back on and him re-writing the STC from memory there isn't a bigger way to swing the odds towards the IoM having a shot.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    Yes, the ideological doctrine that held up (non-mutated) terran humans as the supreme rulers of the galaxy, supported a galactic-scale xenocidal crusade, and viewed the presence of AI as worthy of glassing planets is definitely consistent with the Culture's views.

    Still, if they heal Rowboat we'll finally have someone with enough raw Mary Sue power to actually put up a real fight. Short of just having the Illuminati turn the Emprah back on and him re-writing the STC from memory there isn't a bigger way to swing the odds towards the IoM having a shot.
    Yeah, but that wouldn't result in Hilarity!, it'd just give Jseah a brain aneurysm.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Since I don't know anything about anime/manga, I won't address that point.

    I've never heard of 'Shadowmagic' as a D&D novel, the only book I can find by that title isn't remotely connected to D&D.
    I'm saying in a general literary sense.

    Original Author / Owner of the Source Material's licensed work > Third party produced and controlled material.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    I'm saying in a general literary sense.

    Original Author / Owner of the Source Material's licensed work > Third party produced and controlled material.
    Even assuming that this holds true for a company that literally can't even keep from contradicting itself in its own internally published material, let alone conflicting with licensed third-party material - who or what are you arguing about here? You're currently saying that 1st-party material is more canon than 3rd-party material for 40K fluff; that's contradictory to what you said several posts above, that because FFG is a 3rd party material, what it prints is non-canonical.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  7. - Top - End - #427
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    part 7.5 continued
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    Gunboat Diplomacy is enroute to Macragge. Hyperdrive degradation from the unofficial 'race' over the galaxy has restricted our speeds severely. The ROU is expected to arrive next week.

    Peacemaker has arrived at a nearby Tau system, this is Bork'An, a noted major colony. Well-populated and patrolled, we are unable to approach closely without being detected by significantly more advanced Tau sensors.

    Nevertheless, we have still scanned the Tau world and it does appear to have the IoM reported social structure, although when observed, does not contain some of the more sinister reports of hidden cruelty. Such may be discounted as IoM exaggeration.

    The Tau appear to be a generally peaceful race although their culture still suppresses individual freedoms to some extent. While certainly more meritocratic than the IoM, the Tau are not the paragons of freedom that some analysts of IoM accounts might claim. They do still possess a hierarchial power structure and classical government (pure meritocracy type B, within castes), unlike what some speculators might have hoped. At the least, they do not possess anything at all like a libertarian approach to government.
    Their caste system in particular dictates roles in society and mobility between the castes as well as more 'creative' interpretations of the Greater Good are... frowned upon. And certainly, the Tau are not xenophobic but possess a belief of the superiority of their social system.

    For this reason, this GCU believes that contact with the Tau and medium to long term peaceful reform is possible and should be attempted; without specific injunctions, we will proceed to open first contact within 24 standard hours.

    ...
    This GCU will proceed with first contact.

    Tau World - Bork'An
    The GCU Peacemaker drops its stealth below the orbital plane and is immediately registered by Tau sensors. It begins broadcasting a message on the entire spectrum with IoM protocols in Low Gothic:

    Greetings to the Tau Empire, we are the Culture and we come in peace. We originate from outside this galaxy and this expedition is both to explore and to colonize.
    We have encountered reports of your kind from the Imperium of Mankind and we are pleased to discover a potential ally in an unstable galaxy. Please do not fear that we might share the IoM's attitude towards you, we are fully aware of the IoM's tendency to xenophobia.

    In a galaxy full of Chaos, we seek friends and allies in the coming conflict. We hope that we may eventually count the Tau among them, but even if the Tau are unable or unwilling to help us, we clearly have much to learn from each other.

    We have no wish to intrude into Tau matters nor do we desire your worlds or resources. We hope that our aligned goals and lack of conflicting desires will be conducive to a lasting peace and a fruitful friendship.

    Responses can be directed at this ship along any channel with any IoM protocol. A different communication protocol can also be detailed and we will accommodate. We also desire to learn the Tau language so that we may communicate more effectively.

    I think having time travel is more complicated than it first appears. Closed time loops are nasty nasty things.
    So I'm going to go with, "that was a freak occurence the Culture just witnessed". It won't happen again to any useful frequency.

    Do feel free to continue discussing it though.


    Tau:
    I do note that to the Tau, Chaos isn't that big of a problem. The Tyranids and the IoM are a bigger problem.
    And to the Culture, it's the exact opposite. The Tyranids are a non-problem, and the IoM... we'll get to them, but if need be, they're also a non-problem.

    I'm not actually going to play out the whole exchange, so you can feel free to write the Tau response if you want.

    Do also remember that the Tau are about to get that Messenger ship with the report of the hive fleet splinter's destruction. Reactions to that?


    Guilliman:
    I don't think even he can arrange a fight to go the IoM's way with the Culture's reaction times, even if he attacks under a white flag. There comes a point in technological superiority that no amount of tactical genius can overcome.
    The IoM ships are too slow and too outclassed. Between Tactical FTL, Effectors/Displacers, and Trapdoor, they have nothing that has even a icecube's chance in hell of working.
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    Not even a warpdrive detonation would be able to catch a GCU, given that it would see the ship powering up and scram. Or just take over the ship and force a shutdown.

    Not to mention that it would be manifestly one of the worst possible things he could do.
    Last edited by jseah; 2012-11-11 at 01:32 PM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Even assuming that this holds true for a company that literally can't even keep from contradicting itself in its own internally published material, let alone conflicting with licensed third-party material - who or what are you arguing about here? You're currently saying that 1st-party material is more canon than 3rd-party material for 40K fluff; that's contradictory to what you said several posts above, that because FFG is a 3rd party material, what it prints is non-canonical.
    How is that contradictory?

    What is printed by GW > Stuff printed by other companies.

    While I will admit that my stance on it being non canonical is a personal point that I can't argue without official support, it being less canon than Gamesworkshop Material should be a no brainer.
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  9. - Top - End - #429
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    How is that contradictory?

    What is printed by GW > Stuff printed by other companies.

    While I will admit that my stance on it being non canonical is a personal point that I can't argue without official support, it being less canon than Gamesworkshop Material should be a no brainer.
    Primarily because when GW can't even keep its own canon straight, I just don't see any reason to value it over a licensed third-party producer who's actually capable of consistency. It's not like a typical canon disagreement where 1st Party says X can be trusted over Third-Party Says Y, we're dealing with 1st-Party says X, Y, Z, and Q, all of which contradict each other, you lose any solid rationale for valuing their statements above 3rd-Party statements R and S, which might disagree with X and Y but are consistent with each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Primarily because when GW can't even keep its own canon straight, I just don't see any reason to value it over a licensed third-party producer who's actually capable of consistency. It's not like a typical canon disagreement where 1st Party says X can be trusted over Third-Party Says Y, we're dealing with 1st-Party says X, Y, Z, and Q, all of which contradict each other, you lose any solid rationale for valuing their statements above 3rd-Party statements R and S, which might disagree with X and Y but are consistent with each other.
    I don't see GW being inconsistent as being relevant as to who holds creative control though.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    More on Guilliman:
    Although I don't think he can win a conventional battle with the Culture, I would say he could certainly convince the Culture to stay its hand or lay off intervention with the IoM.

    Not to mention that he personally could and would do alot of the major and hardest reform work the Culture would have to undertake if they ever set out to intervene actively.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    I don't see GW being inconsistent as being relevant as to who holds creative control though.
    I don't think creative control is relevant here. We're not discussing the intentions of one group of authors or another, but rather the properties of a fictional universe. As such, the only value that "creative control" has is the ability to provide consistency to make a more viable universe. If it cannot provide consistency, then we must default to those accounts of the universe that can, be they third party or even fanfiction.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    It's hard to overstate how much of a huge jackass Guilleman was and is. A number of the problems the Imperium faces right now are arguably his personal fault.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    I don't see GW being inconsistent as being relevant as to who holds creative control though.
    Because your entire argument is based on the principle that the primary creator should be considered more canon than its licensed derivative. But GW's internal canon is worthless as any baseline for something to be 'less canon' in comparison, because it's so inconsistent and contradictory...reduced to a purely mathematical expression (because I'm doing a math assignment), it is impossible to quantify that (Y < X) if the value of Y is known but the value of X is undefined.


    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    More on Guilliman:
    Although I don't think he can win a conventional battle with the Culture, I would say he could certainly convince the Culture to stay its hand or lay off intervention with the IoM.

    Not to mention that he personally could and would do alot of the major and hardest reform work the Culture would have to undertake if they ever set out to intervene actively.
    There's no way he could win a conventional battle, so the point would be to avoid engaging them in any sort of conventional battle to begin with. In terms of unconventional/asymmetrical warfare, though, it'd be Alpharius/Omegon who would become the Culture's greatest enemy.

    And yeah, he was a total jerk. Just like Superman.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-11-11 at 02:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    Not to mention that he personally could and would do alot of the major and hardest reform work the Culture would have to undertake if they ever set out to intervene actively.
    He would also be set on getting The Culture to revive his daddy so that the two of them could eradicate their Abominable Intelligence and harness their technology for the good of Humanity.

    So, have fun with that
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    I don't think creative control is relevant here. We're not discussing the intentions of one group of authors or another, but rather the properties of a fictional universe. As such, the only value that "creative control" has is the ability to provide consistency to make a more viable universe. If it cannot provide consistency, then we must default to those accounts of the universe that can, be they third party or even fanfiction.
    That's not a correct answer at all, while GW may "revise" canon from time to time they do keep things consistent within the codex's, and they are the original source.

    Your opinion's on consistency are not relevant, and honestly taking fanfiction into account at all is an immediate no in any formal debate. I could bring up a fanfiction where 40k beats the culture because lances are randomly better than Gridfire, and they "Lulz Psyker Rape" the minds.

    Would it be canon? No. Because fanfiction isn't.

    Third party sources are also outside of control of the "Creative Source", so they aren't canon.

    Consistency aside, it doesn't matter, Games Workshop work > any other source for 40k material. if you don't see a GW logo on the cover, it's less canon because it's their stamp of approved content. The only official measure of "canon" GW has is that stamp.
    Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-11 at 02:20 PM.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Fanfiction is, by definition, unlicensed, so that's not a valid comparison to make.

    As for the third-party thing, we've been over (and you'd admitted) that derivative=non-canon is simply your personal feelings rather than some hard truth, so that's fine. But even then, let's chase a hypothetical - why are you so convinced that GW has no creative input into the RPGs? The front page of the Dark Heresy rulebook, for instance, lists three Games Workshop Employees: a Licensing Manager, a Licensing and Acquired Rights Manager, and a Head of Legal+Licensing. The third of those is definitely a glorified lawyer, but having two staffed positions specifically to manage the license seems like pretty strong evidence that the FFG-GW relationship extends beyond an exchange of cash. If the terms of license (that we don't have access to) are in any way similar to the terms of license between Black Library Publishing and the authors of the novels, then FFG's productions rank in equal canonicity, because GW has equal creative control over both.

    Incidentally, is the stamp you're referring to also metaphorical? Because none of my Black Library books have a Games Workshop emblem on them (though there is one on my Necrons 5E codex).
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-11-11 at 02:40 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    More on Guilliman:
    Although I don't think he can win a conventional battle with the Culture, I would say he could certainly convince the Culture to stay its hand or lay off intervention with the IoM.

    Not to mention that he personally could and would do alot of the major and hardest reform work the Culture would have to undertake if they ever set out to intervene actively.
    I think you have a bit of a misconception about the Imperium of Man; it seems like you see them as a once-reasonable* people who became unreasonable after the Horus Heresy and have been on a moral/ethical downhill slide since.

    That is not the case.

    The Imperium, even at the height of their civilization under the Emperor's personal guidance, has never been anything other than completely human supremacist to the point of casual xenocide. Even at the height of their technical knowledge and with the Emperor and Machine Cult both in full Science! swings they have always seen AIs** as at least as dangerous as Chaos; standard protocal is to Exterminatus the whole planet if there is one AI there. The Emperor, as his title implies, has never had any inclinations towards freedom or democratic rule for his human subjects, and was more than willing to kill billions if it would achieve his goals.

    The Idirans are absolute amateurs in terms of atrocity compared to the IoM, at least based on what I've read about them, and would compare favorably even to the Tau in the WH40k setting. That's really the best way I can express it, other than just making a post saying GRIMDARK 400 times in a row.

    *Let "reasonable" = utilitarian ^ rationalist ^ posthumanist ^ ~speciest ^ ~interventionist, as Ian Banks seems to do.
    **Yes, yes, Minds aren't AI. Whatever. The IoM will not see such a nuanced distinction as significant in terms of wanting them gone.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    **Yes, yes, Minds aren't AI. Whatever. The IoM will not see such a nuanced distinction as significant in terms of wanting them gone.[/I]
    It'd almost be hard to fault them is the ironic thing. The Minds have, after all, pretty immediately turned their attention to undermining the Imperium's sovreignty, imposing a puppet ruler, dismantling their religious organisations and generally remolding them as they see fit (and mostly because simply destroying the imperium would make them feel bad, I get the feeling that if they can't change the Imperium as they want they'd probably consider destroying it anyway). They also, via their post-singularity tech, hubris and complete lack of understanding the warp, potentially represent a galaxy ending threat if Chaos ever got hold of their stuff, which has come close once or twice.

    All of which is undoubtedly more benevalent than the actions of the Iron Men, who sound like they were more generally opposed to their former masters than the more targeted, institution and cultural things the Culture would be attempting to change/destroy.

    Eventually, the Men of Iron turned on their human masters, believing themselves superior to the humans who relied on the Men of Iron to do virtually everything for them. In the end, the Men of Iron were destroyed by humanity in a terrible war that extinguished countless lives and destroyed the ancient galaxy's economic and political unity.
    But when so much of the Imperium of Man, even back in the days when the Emperor was up and about, can be summed up as motivated by doing whatever was necessary to ensure that humanity survived and prospered in an often directly hostile galaxy, it does make a certain amount of sense.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    I think some of the confusion is that earlier takes on the Emperor back in first edition had him more idealistic and ethical but over time that was retconned away because no one can be a good guy in 40k ever! The same thing is happening to the Tau. At first their concept of the 'Greater Good' was everything it appeared to be then later writers didn't like it and started adding in the stuff about sterilizing 'inferior species'.
    Last edited by Spamotron; 2012-11-11 at 03:12 PM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    I don't care about the ones that end up in the future. =P
    But there exists a few ships in the IoM that DO end up quite far back in the past. Which the Culture can potentially find and use to transmit messages to the past.

    The Culture with time loop logic... >.>
    Too rare, and it's uncontrolled. The sheer effort expended wouldn't make it worth it.

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    part 7.5 Tau
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    Week 3
    ROU Gunboat Diplomacy to GCU Peacemaker
    Tyranid hive fleet sighted around IoM system, proceeding along standard engagement protocol.

    ... Hive fleet destroyed. No Tyranid prescence on IoM world detected. IoM fleet seems to be inoperative. There is an unidentified ship at the edge of the system, was being chased by a small force of Tyranids that have now been destroyed. The ship is remaining still, no signs of detection of this ROU has been found.

    Effector readings of the ship are as follows. Preliminary identification: Tau scout ship, Messenger Class (IoM name), confidence level 88%.

    Should I open direct contact?

    ...
    Request to await your arrival is acknowledged.


    Two days later
    GCU Peacemaker
    The Tau ship has jumped out of the system while the GCU Peacemaker was on its way. The loss of this chance at contact is disappointing but Gunboat Diplomacy's scans of the IoM planet has retrieved an approximate map of Tau space in the local region.

    This GCU will head to the nearest Tau-held planet to analyze and possibly make contact with the Tau. The ROU will remain with one Contact citizen to continue investigations into the Astartes chapter in this space.

    The GSV to arrive in a week's time will establish a presence in this local region of space. As imperialistic patterns go, the IoM does not appear to be an exception to the distance problem. This far from Sol, we may be able to find peaceful contact.

    A general question:
    How does 40k treat things like black holes and neutron stars? Are there anything special near them or does basically everyone avoid them because there's nothing special to see and they're actually kinda dangerous? (pulsars are... rather unhealthy, and neutron stars have a stupidly strong magnetic field, which is also unhealthy; but it also makes them incredibly scientifically interesting)


    Tau: When the Messenger gets back and reports about this, what might the likely Tau reactions be?
    (this update is not over, direct contact happens before this ship returns, so the question is really, how would the Tau view the Culture when the report of the Culture's military capability reaches them)


    More interestingly, given the size of the milky way (100 thousand lights in diameter), even if we say Macragge is only halfway across the galaxy from Sol, there's no way the Culture could actually have gotten here this fast.
    But... *handwaves* never mind that.

    I've been reading about this Guilliman guy on the Lexicanum. I note that he doesn't appear to be psychic (nothing of psyker powers were mentioned of him), is that correct?

    And the other thing is that he appears to be frozen in time right as he was fatally poisoned. Which means he isn't actually dead.. right? Just poisoned by something the Imperium can't cure.
    There might be a very good chance the Culture can actually save him if only they could poke at the body. The problem being that it's in a stasis field which abrogates poking and even if the IoM could be persuaded to turn it off, that'll just kill the guy anyway. (and it's not like the Culture has a backup of him) So it might not be possible until the Culture learns to poke into a stasis field.

    The other thing is that very little is written about his attitude towards xenos. While his obsession with information and organization does mildly align him towards the Culture (this is not a man to miss what the Culture means for the balance of power in the galaxy), I do not know how he might react.
    The Tau are the most reasonable as they aren't as proud as the Eldar and believe in working together for the Greater Good. I mean they even allied with Dark Eldar against the Tyranids (it went about as well as expected in the end.)

    40K mostly ignores Black Holes and Neutron Stars. Generally those things are so lethal that nothing important could survive there so they are treated as hazards to avoid.

    No he isn't actually dead. He is however poisoned by a warp weapon. So even the Culture might not be able to cure him. (They might just reload him though.) He is also a giant ****.

    You know you don't need to rush the Culture's actions so much. Spread out the time span a little and let everything just move a little slower.
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    How would the Tau react to this...

    well, by immediately setting up diplomatic embassies, attempts to trade materiel, culture, some examples of (relatively low tech) technology, showing them all about the cooperation between species of their culture, and basically earnestly trying to show The Culture that joining The Greater Good is a really swell idea. Expect a lot of Water Caste envoys doing various types of diplomacy-ing, lots of attempts to get a handle on what The Culture really is (rather than taking their word for it; Tau have been burned by false promises of peace before, after all...), and all the nitty-gritty of a preferably-peacefully expansionist society trying to woo people over.

    Especially since The Tau would probably get a noncommital response from The Culture regarding joining the actual Greater Good philosophy, they would try and dangle the carrot that only by truly accepting the Greater Good (and pledging their allegiance), could The Culture really have a driving influence in Tau society, rather than merely being an allied race. But they would certainly be willing to have several Water Caste (or even some members from all castes!) live on The Culture ships... once they believe that The Culture is the real deal. Assuming The Culture is noncommital about joining the actual philosophy and pledging to be part of the Tau Empire, they would probably seek to peacefully prosthelytize amongst Culture citizens and societies.

    The fact that this would get to a Immovable Object, Irresistible Force sort of situation at some point would be fairly apparent to all involved -- after a certain point -- so they would be taking precautions to get promises so that no matter how that eventually ends up, the Tau Empire won't get burned.

    The actual response to the transmission would be fairly generic and a bit heavy on the 'For Peace and Prosperity and Cooperation!' rhetoric.

    And The Tau wish to spread The Greater Good wherever there are sentients, so not specifically planets. Though they would be cautious about 'join the Greater Good!' immediately, and more focusing on (for now) the slower process of showing how nifty their way of doing things is. In the short term, they would be very very interested in mercenaries, however!

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    You know you don't need to rush the Culture's actions so much. Spread out the time span a little and let everything just move a little slower.
    Agreed, its Really Okay for there to be a month or two where nothing happens.

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    Do also remember that the Tau are about to get that Messenger ship with the report of the hive fleet splinter's destruction. Reactions to that?
    They would certainly want to know if The Culture has encountered The Tyranids in a particular area, and ask if they know anything about some area. They wouldn't immediately believe The Culture was responsible for such a rapid destruction of a fleet, if they claimed they were.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-11 at 04:14 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Fanfiction is, by definition, unlicensed, so that's not a valid comparison to make.

    As for the third-party thing, we've been over (and you'd admitted) that derivative=non-canon is simply your personal feelings rather than some hard truth, so that's fine. But even then, let's chase a hypothetical - why are you so convinced that GW has no creative input into the RPGs? The front page of the Dark Heresy rulebook, for instance, lists three Games Workshop Employees: a Licensing Manager, a Licensing and Acquired Rights Manager, and a Head of Legal+Licensing. The third of those is definitely a glorified lawyer, but having two staffed positions specifically to manage the license seems like pretty strong evidence that the FFG-GW relationship extends beyond an exchange of cash. If the terms of license (that we don't have access to) are in any way similar to the terms of license between Black Library Publishing and the authors of the novels, then FFG's productions rank in equal canonicity, because GW has equal creative control over both.

    Incidentally, is the stamp you're referring to also metaphorical? Because none of my Black Library books have a Games Workshop emblem on them (though there is one on my Necrons 5E codex).
    The one on the codex's. Yes.

    But again, I maintain that out of all the Primarch's. Sanguinus was the most noble, the one with the most wisdom, and the most hope for humanity.

    Even if it was a back up copy, he'd be a worthy successor, even Horus believed that Sanguinus was the one that should've been Warmaster.

    Also Sanguinus's body is entombed upon Baal, the body wasn't left on the battle barge.
    Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-11 at 04:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    Even if it was a back up copy
    It wouldn't be a backup copy. It'd be a genetic clone, a twin, maybe made out of the bones of the previous. Maybe it would have engineered memories, maybe not. But it wouldn't be a copy. It could get closer if they could get his soul to be attracted back into that body, and purified in the process (thus reincarnating him, like old-style Eldar used to do before Slaanesh)... but even then it wouldn't be a 'load from backup' copy.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-11 at 04:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Spamotron View Post
    I think some of the confusion is that earlier takes on the Emperor back in first edition had him more idealistic and ethical but over time that was retconned away because no one can be a good guy in 40k ever! The same thing is happening to the Tau. At first their concept of the 'Greater Good' was everything it appeared to be then later writers didn't like it and started adding in the stuff about sterilizing 'inferior species'.
    Eerr, the emprah was even less idealistic and ethical in the start at Rogue Trade. He actually was pretty much "Warlord that wants to conquer everything he can see". The whole "golden aura" and "I bring enlightment but I'll destroy high tech and refuse to admit empirical evidence" aspect just started coming up later.

    Meanwhile, the sterelization bit itself comes from the computer games. That also have Khorne sorcerers (whereas all other media has Khorne outright hating magic), somehow geting blood out of necrons, METAL BAWKSES, blood magpies, 4 orks defeating the blood ravens, a chaos warband, numerous IG regiments, and a chaos warbad for dessert, etc, etc
    Last edited by deuterio12; 2012-11-11 at 04:51 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by deuterio12 View Post
    The whole "golden aura" and "I bring enlightment but I'll destroy high tech and refuse to admit empirical evidence" aspect just started coming up later.
    Wait, what?? He liked most high tech (just not AI), and was very empirical -- the whole Imperial Truth thing...??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Wait, what?? He liked most high tech (just not AI), and was very empirical -- the whole Imperial Truth thing...??
    He probably means being a capital-A Atheist in the face of Chaos Gods / C'Tan / Eldar deities. I personally agree with the Big E's "They're just Sufficiently Advanced Aliens" reasoning in terms of what we know about the setting, but we should probably avoid that since it borders on Verbotten topics.

    At the same time, I don't think anyone can say he was anti-tech or anti-science, just that he had a very very specific idea of what is an acceptable outcome. Having all-powerful alien gods or AIs ruling(/'advising') Mankind is anathema to his very existence, and he saw human domination of the galaxy as the ultimate good which science must serve rather than it existing for it's own sake. The Imperial Truth, if the Great Crusade had succeeded, would have approached Singularity from the biological side; with himself, the Tech-Priests of the Omnissiah, and his Primarchs/Speesh Mareensh becoming more and more intelligent rather than just jumping to the end by making digital intelligences from scratch.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    He would also be set on getting The Culture to revive his daddy so that the two of them could eradicate their Abominable Intelligence and harness their technology for the good of Humanity.
    Ah, about the Emperor. Isn't the emperor basically dead? As in, only a few cells of him is still alive.

    So the Culture would have an even harder time reviving the Emperor than Guilliman. There is also the problem that the Golden Throne and Astronomican are tied together. They risk breaking his flashlight and the rest of the IoM by extension.

    If the "few cells" bit is true, then you know, there really isn't very much they can do. But even his memories are gone since his brain is (mostly) gone.

    Clone him maybe. But good luck trying to get the Culture to clone an A+ psyker when they know that's the very thing that would end up with a ship taken over by Chaos. And they might not even get a psyker depending on how much of a natural birth you need to get a psyker in the first place.

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    No one actually says how much of The Emperor is alive... it's left ambiguous.

    Also, the Astronomicon worked perfectly fine before he was put into it and the thing fed a bunch of Psykers...

    It would have to go back to, you know, a different form of operation that it hasn't done, but such a thing would be plausible...


    ...AFTER The Culture gets a handle on Warp physics and making psychoactive plastics and such (cause I believe The Astronomicon uses a bunch of human-made but Eldar style wraithbone-equivalents, or at least other drawn from the warp materials, done by the Emperor).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    and basically earnestly trying to show The Culture that joining The Greater Good is a really swell idea.
    The Culture's response to that would basically run along the lines of "Personally, I prefer staying where we are. But you are free to try convincing anyone who wants to join you. "

    The Culture's culture (anarchist liberal) where everyone does whatever they want is kinda like the exact opposite of the Greater Good. >.>
    How would the Tau react to that?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    In the short term, they would be very very interested in mercenaries, however!
    And the Culture are really fussy about being used as a big stick. About the only thing the Tau could point them at are Tyranids.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Agreed, its Really Okay for there to be a month or two where nothing happens.
    I'll keep that in mind, but its actually a rare three weeks in which nothing happens. At the rate of the Culture's ships being produced and moving around, they run over something important every few weeks.

    And being that there's so many different threads, *something* happens every now and then.
    What I'm trying to do here is give all of them equal light. If I was doing it by "what would happen", part 7 would be all about the Necrons... and maybe the ork thing.
    Last edited by jseah; 2012-11-11 at 10:07 PM.

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