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  1. - Top - End - #571
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    That's 4th edition. Chaos has a 6th edition sourcebook out... that goes into detail about the gods and the daemons...
    There's a 5th edition out for it, and Chaos Daemons is the defacto source of Chaos Daemons, and the nature thereof along with the Liber Chaotica.

    There isn't anything in the Codex: Chaos 6th edition that specifically out dates, or changes anything about the Chaos Gods being powered by emotions because that's their core concept.

    Slannesh was born of the Hedonism of the Fall of the Eldar.

    Khorne was born of the hatred, and bloodshed caused by the Crusades in Terra's middle ages.

    Nurgle was born from life's fear of death, likely caused by The Nightbringer, and is the first born.

    And Tzeentch was born at an undescribed period, but it is assumed he was spawned similarly.

    To have this be rectonned would remove The Fall of the Eldar ENTIRELY, and would require the Eye of Terror not to exist.
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    Plus the imperail force tasked with permanently watching over the gate is 100% IG (Cadia). Even the IoM isn't so incompetent to put on guard duty of the Eye of Terror the dudes that have a well known 50% betrayal rate when exposed to chaos. Chapters are only called for mop up duty once the cadians have blunted the last chaos incursion.
    Dude. Dude.

    I know you know that your "50% HERESY RATE!!!" figure is crap, because I've seen you be called on it before. So why you still trotting it out? If you were talking about Warhammer 30k you might be right. But you're talking about 40k, where Space Marines fall to Chaos in very very rare circumstances, despite having more exposure than most.


    There are in fact about a score of Space Marine chapters with homeworlds surrounding the Eye, whose sole purpose is to deal with Chaos incursions in the region and to stand in readiness for high magnitude threats. That is what is being referred to. Those chapters have certainly been around for millenia without falling to Chaos. They have a collective name of the Astartes Praesus.

    Yes, in the most recent Codex: Chaos Demons.
    Cite please! Just had a look, and can't see anything about that. It's one of the reasons why people claim it is being ignore-conned.
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    It was specifically the link to positive emotions that had been put up against the wall, as I understand it. (Which, arguably is a shame, but that's what I've heard).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    There's a 5th edition out for it, and Chaos Daemons is the defacto source of Chaos Daemons, and the nature thereof along with the Liber Chaotica.

    There isn't anything in the Codex: Chaos 6th edition that specifically out dates, or changes anything about the Chaos Gods being powered by emotions because that's their core concept.

    Slannesh was born of the Hedonism of the Fall of the Eldar.

    Khorne was born of the hatred, and bloodshed caused by the Crusades in Terra's middle ages.

    Nurgle was born from life's fear of death, likely caused by The Nightbringer, and is the first born.

    And Tzeentch was born at an undescribed period, but it is assumed he was spawned similarly.

    To have this be rectonned would remove The Fall of the Eldar ENTIRELY, and would require the Eye of Terror not to exist.
    No the ignore-con is to positive emotions. I think (I haven't actually had a chance to check myself) that it's only negative emotions that power the Chaos Gods now.


    While Ordos Xenos does have some Eldar information they really don't have that much access to pretty much anything Eldar related except for a few (literally one to three people) in the last few thousand years. After all to the Imperium in general a handful of Wraithbone is a big deal. Or a single empty soulstone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Codex Chaos Daemons: PP 23
    The Chaos gods drink from the the emotions and thoughts of mankind, growing bloated with power in the process. Over the millenia each has fed on an aspect of man: Rage, Lust, Corruption and Inconstancy. Strengthened and moulded by the thoughts and emotions of reality, the Warp Powers nurture in Mankind those passions that sustain them. As man has spread across the stars their number has grown immeasurably, fueling the Chaos Gods. So the circle is established, with Man's follies fueling the Chaos gods and the Gods encouraging Man to further folly.
    Note, there is nothing about positive emotions, and it even mildly implies that those aren't fed upon by talking about follies and about singular negative emotions.

    Black Crusade goes further

    In (for example)
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Crusade- pp. 14
    Some justify the slaughter through honour bravery and pride, but the truly pious know only the bloodshed matters.
    The role of positive emotions is just as a spur to negative ones. They are explicitly called out as not mattering to Khorne.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Chronologically, can anyone figure out the last reference to chaos gods having/being part of positive emotions?

    Also, in a completely different topic, The Culture probably has the capability to disable Imperial Warships in such a way that they aren't destroyed, there is little casualties amongst the crew, but that they are really really really hard to fix and probably need to be towed back to port or have one of the very few mobile shipyard/repair type ships come get them. They could totally swamp the Imperial repair capability with disabled warships, going beyond the Imperial capability of fixing the different ships... and since they aren't getting destroyed, this disrupts the expectations of attrition of 'new' type warships, meaning that the logistics of the Imperial Navy are going to get even more overstretched than they usually are. With simultaneously taking pressure off of other fronts, they can leverage the Imperial's lack of logistical adaptability to make them a victim of their own 'success' in naval encounters. The Imperium would end up with a TON of mothballed, disabled ships, and nothing to do with them, before they adapt to the lower rate of attrition. Kinda what happened in (this is not a 40k setting) Jack Campbell's The Lost Fleet series of books.

    In a completely different topic...

    ...what about the non-evil Eldar gods in the Warp? Eldar will be PISSED if whatever plan The Culture has to do...whatever... to the Warp will harm their gods!
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-13 at 09:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    If that makes sense?
    The thing is that if emotions are a fundamental aspect of reality (which is the only explanation for how the Warp interacts with it), it does not square with the Culture's implicit ability to remove, alter and generally poke at it however they will.

    Making a "human" who gets angry just like any other human... except in the times when he is supposed to get angry at you destroying something he owns... is that really the emotion we call 'anger'?

    How about if it doesn't manifest in higher blood pressure and a tendency to hit things, but with him becoming very very sleepy?
    Or do we now have an emotion called sleepy-anger? Which is sort of like anger, but not.

    You see what I'm getting at here? The Culture can play Ship of Theseus with concept of emotions. This does not square with the 40k assertion that emotions themselves exist outside the human body.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    The thing is that if emotions are a fundamental aspect of reality (which is the only explanation for how the Warp interacts with it), it does not square with the Culture's implicit ability to remove, alter and generally poke at it however they will.

    Making a "human" who gets angry just like any other human... except in the times when he is supposed to get angry at you destroying something he owns... is that really the emotion we call 'anger'?

    How about if it doesn't manifest in higher blood pressure and a tendency to hit things, but with him becoming very very sleepy?
    Or do we now have an emotion called sleepy-anger? Which is sort of like anger, but not.

    You see what I'm getting at here? The Culture can play Ship of Theseus with concept of emotions. This does not square with the 40k assertion that emotions themselves exist outside the human body.

    You have no idea how horrifying of an idea that is for me. If the Culture actually does something like that then they've pretty much cemented themselves as complete monsters in my books.

    Anyways I would say that the warp flat out wins in that field. Because Space Marines are designed to not feel things like lust. Yet Slaanash can still tempt them with lust. In fact pretty much all aliens feel the same emotions with similar results, so I would argue that it's the connection they have with the warp that causes this.

    Basically emotions are beyond biology in the 40K universe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    You have no idea how horrifying of an idea that is for me. If the Culture actually does something like that then they've pretty much cemented themselves as complete monsters in my books.
    They'll only do it if the person requested them to do so. But they can do it, and the theoretical possiblity is what I am pointing at here.

    But do explain, why do you think it's horrifying? I don't understand why. (you may wish to spoiler it if the philosophy gets OT)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Basically emotions are beyond biology in the 40K universe.
    But in those cases, then the Warp imposes emotions from outside of the biological inheritance. In which case, the Culture really should close off the warp in order to replace everything with far more stable non-warp emotions. (which, you might note, to the person him/her/itself, is absolutely no difference. Well, apart from that the 'new' emotions don't cause you to occasionally get eaten by a wandering demon)

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    They'll only do it if the person requested them to do so. But they can do it, and the theoretical possiblity is what I am pointing at here.

    But do explain, why do you think it's horrifying? I don't understand why. (you may wish to spoiler it if the philosophy gets OT)


    But in those cases, then the Warp imposes emotions from outside of the biological inheritance. In which case, the Culture really should close off the warp in order to replace everything with far more stable non-warp emotions. (which, you might note, to the person him/her/itself, is absolutely no difference. Well, apart from that the 'new' emotions don't cause you to occasionally get eaten by a wandering demon)
    It's actually a bit personal so I'd rather not get into it. But basically there are two things that I view as too essential to who I am (Memories and emotions) and the unwilling modification of those two things are what I feel are some of the greatest crimes any being could do. Going through said modification would be one of the most horrifying things to experience.

    Anyways like we've said before closing off the Warp would pretty much wipe sentient life out in the galaxy. Even the Newcrons would be affected. Basically the warp and intelligent life are irrevocably linked and one cannot exist without the other. Only nulls are an exception to this rule and they are very rare and almost unique to humanity as far as I know.

    On a side note didn't we decide that every time a Culture member changes body (or gets reloaded from Back up) they are basically getting a new soul to match? To put it another way they died and a new being was reborn with the same memories and abilities. The Eldar may actually be able to pick up on that and it's why they would find back ups so horrifying.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    I don't see how lessening the impact of the warp, reducing its hold on folk, and calming it would be a bad thing. You might not be able to use the exact pylon design to do that, but surely a variant could manage to force the warp to something like a pre chaos gods state?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Anyways like we've said before closing off the Warp would pretty much wipe sentient life out in the galaxy.
    That would require that the Warp is able to affect things even when it is closed off. Otherwise, all that would result is the Culture doing a full reload from backup of every single organic in their civilization. (the workings of all the organics being fully understood in the real, their organics don't require the warp to work)
    But clearly, they would distribute reload technology everywhere before implementing the plan. Or only implementing it across a section of the galaxy.

    And in any case, if the pylons do cause a warp-null area, why don't people die when they walk into such a field? (I understand psykers can't do their thing, but that's it, no?)


    EDIT:
    (say, they claim a large section of the the Eastern fringe and just isolate that + the insides of all their ships from the Warp and leave the rest of the galaxy alone)
    Actually, this is the rather more likely plan, given the Eldar won't use reload technology, and that dissociating the whole galaxy would result in a mass death like never before seen.

    So let's run with this as the actual "no more warp... for us" plan.

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    To put it another way they died and a new being was reborn with the same memories and abilities.
    The Culture, of course, doesn't see it that way. They don't regard the warp-part of the body as being part of the person.

    But that's a cultural clash about to happen in the future. Maybe I'll hint at that idea for the Eldar part in this part 7.5. =D
    Last edited by jseah; 2012-11-14 at 01:54 AM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    I don't know for sure what closing the Warp off would do, or not. Is there anything approaching consensus regarding this issue???

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...ylons-on-Cadia

    a fan thread compiling info. Folk seem unsure whether they calm, stabilize, or cut off access to the warp, or just disrupt it, or something else.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    I don't see how lessening the impact of the warp, reducing its hold on folk, and calming it would be a bad thing. You might not be able to use the exact pylon design to do that, but surely a variant could manage to force the warp to something like a pre chaos gods state?
    None of those are cutting the warp off entirely. So yeah they aren't bad things at all.

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    That would require that the Warp is able to affect things even when it is closed off. Otherwise, all that would result is the Culture doing a full reload from backup of every single organic in their civilization. (the workings of all the organics being fully understood in the real, their organics don't require the warp to work)
    But clearly, they would distribute reload technology everywhere before implementing the plan. Or only implementing it across a section of the galaxy.

    And in any case, if the pylons do cause a warp-null area, why don't people die when they walk into such a field? (I understand psykers can't do their thing, but that's it, no?)


    EDIT:
    (say, they claim a large section of the the Eastern fringe and just isolate that + the insides of all their ships from the Warp and leave the rest of the galaxy alone)
    Actually, this is the rather more likely plan, given the Eldar won't use reload technology, and that dissociating the whole galaxy would result in a mass death like never before seen.

    So let's run with this as the actual "no more warp... for us" plan.


    The Culture, of course, doesn't see it that way. They don't regard the warp-part of the body as being part of the person.

    But that's a cultural clash about to happen in the future. Maybe I'll hint at that idea for the Eldar part in this part 7.5. =D
    Or that some part of everything needs the connection to the warp to live, or perhaps just to be something that could be identified as intelligent life.

    Why don't they die? Well there is no canon reason. However I theorize that losing the warp is A) isn't instantly fatal or B) Pervasive enough that being in a small field actually does allow some access still. I think that being in a null field though is instinctively terrifying. You want to get out as fast as you can and at best you feel uneasy and discontent. (which coincidentally would make them an even more terrifying weapon then they already are.) People get a similar response to nulls, they are uneasy in their presence and instinctively hate and fear them.

    Oh sure but the Culture doesn't believe in the soul at all while the Eldar have empirical evidence that it exists. Actually all races but Tau and Orks know that they have souls. Orks don't care and Tau haven't bothered to check.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    I don't know for sure what closing the Warp off would do, or not. Is there anything approaching consensus regarding this issue???
    The old canon is that it would be an extinction level event for pretty much all intelligent life and certainly for the Eldar. (Except Necrons who didn't have souls in the old canon.)

    By new canon I don't think it's possible at all. Even if it was no one would dare to try.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    http://www.warseer.com/forums/showth...ylons-on-Cadia

    a fan thread compiling info. Folk seem unsure whether they calm, stabilize, or cut off access to the warp, or just disrupt it, or something else.
    By the new Chaos Codex book, destroying those pylons would allow the Chaos Space Marines to leave the Eye from whatever direction they want, instead of just through Cadia gate.
    Last edited by Forum Explorer; 2012-11-14 at 02:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Or that some part of everything needs the connection to the warp to live, or perhaps just to be something that could be identified as intelligent life.
    Which doesn't apply to AI because in 40k, AI isn't considered intelligent life (it was agreed in the previous thread that the drones and Minds don't have souls, in the same way that STCs don't have them either),
    while in the Culture-verse, the organic and inorganic intelligence have absolutely no difference.

    It's not so much that the Culture don't believe in the soul. They do know it exists, given that the Eldar use it, the Necrons hate it, and the IoM knows it exists and poorly explains warp-tech and psykers with it.

    So they do know the soul exists, they just don't consider the soul to be part of the person. They only consider the realspace part of the person to be the real person. The warp bits are... unnecessary at best. A critical flaw at worst.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    Which doesn't apply to AI because in 40k, AI isn't considered intelligent life (it was agreed in the previous thread that the drones and Minds don't have souls, in the same way that STCs don't have them either),
    while in the Culture-verse, the organic and inorganic intelligence have absolutely no difference.

    It's not so much that the Culture don't believe in the soul. They do know it exists, given that the Eldar use it, the Necrons hate it, and the IoM knows it exists and poorly explains warp-tech and psykers with it.

    So they do know the soul exists, they just don't consider the soul to be part of the person. They only consider the realspace part of the person to be the real person. The warp bits are... unnecessary at best. A critical flaw at worst.
    That's true. Well there are machine spirits whatever they do but yeah. Overall though I don't think any of the AI in the 40K verse can actually feel emotion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That's true. Well there are machine spirits whatever they do but yeah. Overall though I don't think any of the AI in the 40K verse can actually feel emotion.
    Lol, if/when the Culture get around to enacting warp separation on their ships, I can totally see the Culture undergoing a VR phase.

    It was mentioned in the link about the Culture earlier that the Culture has had phases where people lived in full VR instead of inhabiting organic bodies.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    Which doesn't apply to AI because in 40k, AI isn't considered intelligent life (it was agreed in the previous thread that the drones and Minds don't have souls, in the same way that STCs don't have them either),
    while in the Culture-verse, the organic and inorganic intelligence have absolutely no difference.

    It's not so much that the Culture don't believe in the soul. They do know it exists, given that the Eldar use it, the Necrons hate it, and the IoM knows it exists and poorly explains warp-tech and psykers with it.

    So they do know the soul exists, they just don't consider the soul to be part of the person. They only consider the realspace part of the person to be the real person. The warp bits are... unnecessary at best. A critical flaw at worst.
    That sounds like a critical flaw in the Culture's understanding of the spiritual side of the universe though, not a problem on the 40k side. The 40k side is the one with all of the metaphysical knowledge, and I don't see a reason for the metaphysical side that has stated things to be ousted in favor of the other side with no stated, or existing, metaphysical concepts.
    Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-14 at 03:01 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    But basically there are two things that I view as too essential to who I am (Memories and emotions) and the unwilling modification of those two things are what I feel are some of the greatest crimes any being could do.
    Also, this is sort of why I get away from reading the Culture books feeling slightly baffled that the Culture isn't all that much different from the present day world. Seriously, you could take any one of us and plonk us down into the Culture and, while we might not fit into their society well, we would at least be able to operate reasonably ok.

    Post-Singularity to the Culture's extent erases the entire meaning of identity, personality, emotions and all the other things we take to mean 'people' in every day life.

    The Culture as a civilization, if they did all of what they were capable of, is something we can barely comprehend and that nothing in 40k has a chance of understanding except the Old Ones and maybe Chaos gods.
    It is simply too far removed, what might normally be considered the fundamental bedrock of reality like what it means to be 'someone' is not just a simplification but utterly meaningless at the Culture's level of technology.

    What we mean when we say intelligence and what the Culture means should and would be so different that we may as well use completely different words.


    The only way to square this circle would be to say that all the Culture books involving meat-space humans give us only an infinitely tiny slice of the actual Culture that has opted to have a 'human' experience. (which isn't anything at all like 'human', what with their drug glands)

    Unfortunately, the Word of God has explicitly stated that this is not the case and that meat-space humans are the majority of the 1:1 intelligences. =(

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    That sounds like a critical flaw in the Culture's understanding of the spiritual side of the universe though, not a problem on the 40k side. The 40k side is the one with all of the metaphysical knowledge, and I don't see a reason for the metaphysical side that has stated things to be ousted in favor of the other side with no stated, or existing, metaphysical concepts.
    The stipulation was that all the tech continues to work as they did in their original universes. The warp doesn't exist in the Culture's universe.

    Which means that regardless of whatever happens to the warp, the Culture's tech keeps working just as it did before.
    None of the Culture's tech (which includes the ability to make people from nothing) relies on the warp and it won't stop working by the warp going missing.


    That doesn't mean the metaphysical is 'ousted in favour of the other side'.
    They both still affect each other. The warp still affects the Culture's organics and scrap code still works on Culture electronics. The Culture's organics still have souls. A C'tan shard can still give a GCU a hard time.

    It just means that the Culture's ability to reload from backup isn't going to be affected by a little matter of the warp going missing. Its not like biology stops working just because the warp doesn't exist in this region of space (see Blanks, the warp doesn't work for them)

    Similarly, I don't accept the explanation that the Culture's cloning only works because their belief in their own science calms the warp enough for cloning to work.
    Their cloning works because their tech works and is accurate.


    And in reverse, 40k's warp tech does continue to work just as it did. 40k's cloning tech doesn't work, the warp will still continue to reality rewrite.
    Last edited by jseah; 2012-11-14 at 03:24 AM.

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    Unfortunately, the Word of God has explicitly stated that this is not the case and that meat-space humans are the majority of the 1:1 intelligences
    I bet most transcendiis are hanging around in the virtualverse rather than meatspace. If you're interested in radically redefining your perceptions, intelligence and experiences, doing it in the real world doesn't sound like it would help that much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan
    That sounds like a critical flaw in the Culture's understanding of the spiritual side of the universe though, not a problem on the 40k side. The 40k side is the one with all of the metaphysical knowledge, and I don't see a reason for the metaphysical side that has stated things to be ousted in favor of the other side with no stated, or existing, metaphysical concepts.
    The Sublime is all metaphysical concepts, and AI explicitly can exist in the sublime, and each individual copy of a personality will be combined into one so it doesn't matter how many you make. But we've basically excised the Sublime from this fic. Or alternatively, we're basically asking a hypothetical question about how people would react if the Sublime was evil.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    I bet most transcendiis are hanging around in the virtualverse rather than meatspace. If you're interested in radically redefining your perceptions, intelligence and experiences, doing it in the real world doesn't sound like it would help that much.
    Hm, fair enough actually.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    The Sublime is all metaphysical concepts, and AI explicitly can exist in the sublime, and each individual copy of a personality will be combined into one so it doesn't matter how many you make. But we've basically excised the Sublime from this fic. Or alternatively, we're basically asking a hypothetical question about how people would react if the Sublime was evil.
    I have decided that the Culture would not Sublime themselves (since they are suspicious of it). And that the 40k does not have the Sublimed that exist in the Culture is part of the assumptions.

    Only a small set of ships come over. The Sublimed don't.

    If you're referring to the Chaos gods as a kind of evil sublimed, they are a very limited kind of sublimed in that case.
    The sublimed in Culture-verse were stated to start off by doing things like moving entire constellations. They could squish the Culture in an afternoon if they feel like it except that the other sublimed would stop them.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    Similarly, I don't accept the explanation that the Culture's cloning only works because their belief in their own science calms the warp enough for cloning to work.
    That would be hilarious though. The Culture have their own version of the Ork technology field.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    I dont think that is that strange a concept. If you consider that the various 40k races all have varying degrees of Warp presence (compare Eldar, Human & Tau). The Culture Pan-Humans could simply be similar to the Tau in that they have little to no Warp presence.
    The could similarly be more akin to the Orks Warp presence in that, as a group, their local reality conforms to their expectations

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Likely to miss today's update, have a late night flight. (and possibly will miss on Sunday as well, due to a cousin's wedding)

    Parra:
    It's not a strange concept of course. I'm rejecting it because it would imply a different explanation for the Culture's technology that wasn't their own.

    EDIT: the point was to have a background explanation that did not place the Culture's physics within the interpretation of 40k's physics or vice versa, except for the other part of making everything rules based.
    Last edited by jseah; 2012-11-14 at 05:54 AM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    It wasn't that serious an idea.

    A simpler solution to the Cultures cloning working where 40k's doesnt would be that Culture Pan Humans have a low-to nonexistent warp presence so there is next to nothing for the Warp to corrupt in the process.
    Alternatively, since the Cultures Pan Humans are actually dozens of different Humanoid races then maybe some of them are more susceptible than others
    Last edited by Parra; 2012-11-14 at 06:30 AM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    It could also be that cloning is actually quite difficult and 40k is just missing something seemingly minor but actually rather important.

    It's not like any biologist doesn't already know that trying to do cloning without understanding and controlling all the biological reproduction processes is pretty darn difficult.


    Because any Warp-sensitivity cloning-failure explanation would imply that the Necrons and Tau can clone themselves without suffering the same problems, while that wasn't what I understood by "cloning always goes wrong".

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    The Necrons don't have any biological material left to do cloning with - their actual bodies all underwent biotransference, and anything else they might have had lying around decayed during the millions of years of sleep. Returning to weak, fleshy bodies was the last thing on their minds when they went to sleep, so they didn't bother to keep any samples.

    Not sure about the Tau, but maybe either their biosciences aren't advanced enough, or the fact that they have any warp signature at all, even as faint as it is, is enough to skew the process.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-11-14 at 08:44 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    It's not that tampering with emotions and the mind is made impossible by the Warp. I'm entirely fine with the Culture's science shenanigans working fine in in the 40k verse.

    But there's a difference between losing an emotion or two and having a metaphysical layer of reality torn away.

    For my money, what you seem to be assuming is that the Culture don't have the warp, so it's not important and can be safely severed because, hey, the culture managed fine without it! Only that undermines the 40k fluff for the Warp at a fundamental level. It works much, much better and respectfully for the 40k side if we instead assume that the Warp in the Cultureverse is calm, without evil boogeymen living in it and generally not an issue, but still there and still a vital part of the metaphysical side of existence. As far as I understand, this would have been the case in the 40k universe too, at certain points in it's history and returning it to this state is a very rational end-goal and part of what defeating chaos should entail.

    As for 40k and cloning, well, the fact it goes wrong all the time isn't, as far as I know, supposed to be from a single, traceable source. It's a genre thing like how humanity's AI turned against them. It could be as simple as being an effect of the tumultous nature of the warp in the 40k setting, subtle altering probabilities so that if something, anything can go wrong it is more likely. With the Culture's greater understanding of the process and the science involved, and crucially because it happens instantly via startrek style space-magic-tech rather than using bio-tanks and longer periods of time, it's simply a safer and more reliable method and there is less to no chance of anything going wrong short of direct demonic interferance (which is still a possibility).

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