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  1. - Top - End - #601
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    The Tau's biological sciences aren't that advanced -- they live to be like 40-50 years old, and dont seem to even have rejuvenat treatments....

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    For my money, what you seem to be assuming is that the Culture don't have the warp, so it's not important and can be safely severed because, hey, the culture managed fine without it! Only that undermines the 40k fluff for the Warp at a fundamental level. It works much, much better and respectfully for the 40k side if we instead assume that the Warp in the Cultureverse is calm, without evil boogeymen living in it and generally not an issue, but still there and still a vital part of the metaphysical side of existence. As far as I understand, this would have been the case in the 40k universe too, at certain points in it's history and returning it to this state is a very rational end-goal and part of what defeating chaos should entail.
    I'm actually starting to agree with this interpretation...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-14 at 10:46 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    The stipulation was that all the tech continues to work as they did in their original universes. The warp doesn't exist in the Culture's universe.

    Which means that regardless of whatever happens to the warp, the Culture's tech keeps working just as it did before.
    None of the Culture's tech (which includes the ability to make people from nothing) relies on the warp and it won't stop working by the warp going missing.


    That doesn't mean the metaphysical is 'ousted in favour of the other side'.
    They both still affect each other. The warp still affects the Culture's organics and scrap code still works on Culture electronics. The Culture's organics still have souls. A C'tan shard can still give a GCU a hard time.

    It just means that the Culture's ability to reload from backup isn't going to be affected by a little matter of the warp going missing. Its not like biology stops working just because the warp doesn't exist in this region of space (see Blanks, the warp doesn't work for them)

    Similarly, I don't accept the explanation that the Culture's cloning only works because their belief in their own science calms the warp enough for cloning to work.
    Their cloning works because their tech works and is accurate.


    And in reverse, 40k's warp tech does continue to work just as it did. 40k's cloning tech doesn't work, the warp will still continue to reality rewrite.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    It's not that tampering with emotions and the mind is made impossible by the Warp. I'm entirely fine with the Culture's science shenanigans working fine in in the 40k verse.

    But there's a difference between losing an emotion or two and having a metaphysical layer of reality torn away.

    For my money, what you seem to be assuming is that the Culture don't have the warp, so it's not important and can be safely severed because, hey, the culture managed fine without it! Only that undermines the 40k fluff for the Warp at a fundamental level. It works much, much better and respectfully for the 40k side if we instead assume that the Warp in the Cultureverse is calm, without evil boogeymen living in it and generally not an issue, but still there and still a vital part of the metaphysical side of existence. As far as I understand, this would have been the case in the 40k universe too, at certain points in it's history and returning it to this state is a very rational end-goal and part of what defeating chaos should entail.

    As for 40k and cloning, well, the fact it goes wrong all the time isn't, as far as I know, supposed to be from a single, traceable source. It's a genre thing like how humanity's AI turned against them. It could be as simple as being an effect of the tumultous nature of the warp in the 40k setting, subtle altering probabilities so that if something, anything can go wrong it is more likely. With the Culture's greater understanding of the process and the science involved, and crucially because it happens instantly via startrek style space-magic-tech rather than using bio-tanks and longer periods of time, it's simply a safer and more reliable method and there is less to no chance of anything going wrong short of direct demonic interferance (which is still a possibility).
    Well Tiki beat me to it but yeah basically this. The Culture doesn't realize what effect the Warp has and are perfectly fine without it and think it doesn't matter. But they do share the same connection to it like everything else. Their tech still works the same but if they developed a tech to cut off the warp their meat-bag citizens would likely all die.

    Or to put it another way the Culture is flat out wrong that there isn't a fundamental difference between their AI citizens and the meat citizens.
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    I agree with Tiki Snakes.

    Though one correction, the Culture do indeed grow bodies but generally in a genetically generic state (say that 10 times fast). They can then either put into one of these 'plain' bodies straight away OR adjust the body over a peroid of days/weeks to suit desired form

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    The Tau's biological sciences aren't that advanced -- they live to be like 40-50 years old, and dont seem to even have rejuvenat treatments....



    I'm actually starting to agree with this interpretation...
    This would also allow for people to actually start dying via reload as daemons turn their attention towards eating the souls that are released from Culture ships.

    It'd allow for there to be well.. actual consequences for things instead of it just being a simple nuance.

    Kinda kills all drama if no one is ever in any actual danger, or never has any actual need to negotiate.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    This would also allow for people to actually start dying via reload as daemons turn their attention towards eating the souls that are released from Culture ships.

    It'd allow for there to be well.. actual consequences for things instead of it just being a simple nuance.

    Kinda kills all drama if no one is ever in any actual danger, or never has any actual need to negotiate.
    This isn't a drama, though. This is a comedy.
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    Kinda kills all drama if no one is ever in any actual danger, or never has any actual need to negotiate.

    There can only ever be drama if people die?

    The conflict here is clear. The Culture want to make things better, but they're in a horrific universe. How much are they willing to bend their morals to coipe with the circumstances? Is this even a problem they can solve? What will they do to materially improve the lot of the people of the galaxy? There doesn't need to be a threat to their physical existence to make that an interesting situation. Thinking that the only way to run a story is if the protagonist is in mortal danger is just reductive.

    EDIT: And it's a good point as well, that this is a mostly not-so-serious comic short story fuelled by the juxtaposition of opposing themes.
    Last edited by Selrahc; 2012-11-14 at 12:48 PM.
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    Also, people can die, it's just difficult.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    There can only ever be drama if people die?

    The conflict here is clear. The Culture want to make things better, but they're in a horrific universe. How much are they willing to bend their morals to coipe with the circumstances? Is this even a problem they can solve? What will they do to materially improve the lot of the people of the galaxy? There doesn't need to be a threat to their physical existence to make that an interesting situation. Thinking that the only way to run a story is if the protagonist is in mortal danger is just reductive.

    EDIT: And it's a good point as well, that this is a mostly not-so-serious comic short story fuelled by the juxtaposition of opposing themes.
    There can only be drama if something is at stake in any reasonable way.

    The Culture doesn't have to bend their morals, and they haven't.

    I'm not seeing this "moral" conflict as The Culture has had a dandy answer to ever problem that's shown up so far the moment the problem shows up, with no need for the culture to discuss the issues at hand before acting upon them, nor have they gone into any situation genuinely needing anything from any party but themselves.

    That means there's no conflict, because conflict implies struggle.

    There is no conflict, in any way. This includes the very means which this was intended to be approached by via "Conversion" in the sense that they are simply answering with brute force the problems that aren't immediately settled within the span of a few days. There is no "Drama" in the sense that there is no conflict for the story to move upon from this position, and it's why I can understand Jseah wouldn't write this for Nanowrimo.

    Ergo, there is no drama, in anyway. No compelling movement to the story.

    Also, this seriously can't be called a comedy. I'm not seeing a single thing even so much as played for laughs. The ship names are silly, but that's a given of the culture.

    What I see is an attempt to write a story about converting a tyrannical monotheological society that imposes not only atrocities beyond measure, but mandates extreme xenophobia, and the races which have caused said Xenophobia to be justified, to a more peaceful and utopian society through means that cause the least harm possible. In a story. There are no moments where so much as a joke is uttered, to call this a comedy is not only fallacious, it also speaks of a complete lack of understanding as to what "Comedy" is in all but the blackest sense of some grand cosmic joke. Revolving around the pitiable nature of man's fears, and I can say that unless you're specifically for that type of comedy, it certainly isn't going to strike any positive notes.

    I certainly do not see a comedy here.
    Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-14 at 01:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post

    I certainly do not see a comedy here.
    I think we are using the older definition of a comedy... something like, 'a story with a happy ending' or maybe 'a narrative with a lighter tone', rather than 'a story full of humor or satire'.

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    has had a dandy answer to ever problem that's shown up so far the moment the problem shows up
    Has it? What was the solution to the IoM governmental situation? Are the Orks a hegemonizing swarm? If not, how do you deal with them? Do tangible souls change the nature of reality and upset the thought transferrence that is a regular facet of Culture existence? How can Chaos be ultimately defeated? Has the dissolution of the mind-reading prohibitions had any longer term affects on the society? Where are the Culture going to find reliable proxies?

    There is no severe physical risk to the Culture. There are multiple situations with no clear right answers.

    I certainly do not see a comedy here
    Most interactions are fuelled by misunderstanding and farce. The ship names are overt gags. The reaction to the ultra serious "We're so scary" destroyer factions of the 40k verse has mostly been light hearted, with things like Necron pets and Tyranid pest control. And the po-faced religion of the Imperium being dismissed as just primitive mumbo-jumbo.

    It's not an overt comedy. But it isn't really an overt anything, and certainly doesn't fit into a standard storytelling structure. It has comedic elements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    I think we are using the older definition of a comedy... something like, 'a story with a happy ending' or maybe 'a narrative with a lighter tone', rather than 'a story full of humor or satire'.
    The definition you're using is for comic theater, traditional modern comedy is interpreted as satirical, playing off the corruption, or inherent dislike of others, or other societies for the entertainment of the audience. Or it can be interpreted as Party A, against Party B played off in a humorous manner.

    This is as much a comedy as the Illiad was in that sense however, as we aren't poking fun in narrative at it, there is no exaggerated traits of the Imperium being displayed, The Culture in story is seriously trying to answer these problems and reform peoples lives.

    Hamlet had comedic elements. The Diary of Anne Frank, had comedic elements. Having comedic elements does not make it a comedy. Saying that it does is much like saying Gallows Humor makes a hanging a celebration.

    As for Orks, the consensus was split, and it was decided to have a full half of the ROU's / GCU's decide to wipe out the Orks. I'm pretty sure that means that they're all but gone.

    The problem of Orks never existed, because it was never a pressing issue.

    The tyranids were immediately answered, the IOM's governmental reform is prioritized lower than answering the threat of Chaos in the store.
    Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-14 at 02:03 PM.
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    Hamlet had comedic elements. The Diary of Anne Frank, had comedic elements. Having comedic elements does not make it a comedy.
    Similarly though, being a comedic work doesn't mean you can't deal with deadly serious issues and have dramatic scenes. A work can have a range.

    If your suggestion to beef up conflict is just for people to die more, that doesn't really interact with the ongoing thrust of the story. That's like being in the middle of Waiting for Godot, and somebody goes "Wait, not enough high stakes conflict! Bring on the rocket launchers!"
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    Similarly though, being a comedic work doesn't mean you can't deal with deadly serious issues and have dramatic scenes. A work can have a range.

    If your suggestion to beef up conflict is just for people to die more, that doesn't really interact with the ongoing thrust of the story. That's like being in the middle of Waiting for Godot, and somebody goes "Wait, not enough high stakes conflict! Bring on the rocket launchers!"
    It's more if someone's intending to re-enact a war, one side has water guns while the other has space lasers.
    Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-14 at 02:42 PM.
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    But it isn't a war. It never was.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    But it isn't a war. It never was.
    It's an example of conflict presented in a way that is being used in this setting.

    One side, is supposedly there to provide information, and help combat the threat of the warp with what knowledge they've accrued through millenia and they're simply being ignored.

    The water guns, are a metaphor for the right tool to fight the fire of the warp. Smaller in scale vastly than what is needed to quench the inferno, but a few hundred thousand stem the tide.

    The space lasers in this case is the Culture's own lack of understanding of metaphysics, and how the warp itself is tied to human emotion. Meaning meat sacks are in fact in possession of something that the Minds aren't.

    Souls.

    And I wonder how a mind would take that?
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    THIS IS NOT WAR. THIS IS PEST CONTROL. not screaming?
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    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Fan have you ever read a Culture book? Because from the one I did read (Player of Games) there wasn't very much tension from the threat of death. To the point where the odds of them dying was something like 1 in 100 000 of happening. (A drone actually complained that those odds were too bad!) and even then they'd just be backed up if they did die.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Fan have you ever read a Culture book? Because from the one I did read (Player of Games) there wasn't very much tension from the threat of death. To the point where the odds of them dying was something like 1 in 100 000 of happening. (A drone actually complained that those odds were too bad!) and even then they'd just be backed up if they did die.
    That seems like a lack of compelling drama to me, in a situation where people ARE going into dangerous situations there is supposed to be some element of risk.

    If negotiations go poorly? They have no reason to worry.

    If anything bad happens ever? There is no danger, emotional or otherwise because they can just make it better.

    It's part of why I do understand some people's dislike for things like Superman, only this is Magic Immune, Kryptonite Immune, Sword of Superman Possessing, White Lantern Ring Augmented, Sun Dipped Superman V.S. Aquaman in a desert world, under a blue sun.
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    In terms of Culture vs. 40k metaphysics, ideally Culture humans should have been completely distinct from 40k humans, and soulless. They weren't established that way though, so we need a better solution.

    I advocate a compromise: while Culture humans have souls, they don't rely on them to the same extent that IoM humans do. IoM humans evolved alongside the Warp, so perhaps their brains don't process emotion the way Culture humans' brains do. Specifically, perhaps the various organics of the 40k universe outsource some of their emotional processing to the Warp, while Culture humans do it all internally. So the Culture would need to rewrite the emotions and instincts of every organic in the galaxy in order to cut off the Warp without killing everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    It's part of why I do understand some people's dislike for things like Superman, only this is Magic Immune, Kryptonite Immune, Sword of Superman Possessing, White Lantern Ring Augmented, Sun Dipped Superman V.S. Aquaman in a desert world, under a blue sun.
    Rather, it's kryptonite-immune Superman trying to persuade Lex Luthor, Dr. Doom, the Joker, and other baddies to give up their criminal ways for good, without allowing himself to compromising his morals (too much). There is no question in anyone's mind that Superman can reduce Luthor and the rest to a fine red mist in hundreds of ways and he's immune to anything those guys can throw at him, but that doesn't actually solve any problems, it's just the minimum force necessary to get the Joker to stop trying to kill him with a kryptonite-filled exploding jack-in-the-box so that the talking can actually happen. (If Superman has some sort of mind-controlling hypnotic voice thing he picked up somewhere that I'm not aware of, let's say that Supes considers using that and other "make enemies friendly" plot devices to be immoral.)

    Superman stories generally suck when they try to take an explicitly nigh-invincible pull-powers-out-of-thin-air superhero and threaten him with the physical, because we already know he'll save the day. It's only when writers say "Okay, kryptonite bullets are stupid, and dei ex machina are boring, let's try to get inside Superman's head" that Superman stories turn out well. Same thing here--we don't expect the Culture to be challenged militarily by the 'Nids or have their agents face permanent death, because they won't, we expect them to be challenged by metaphysics, which is what's currently being worked out.
    Last edited by PairO'Dice Lost; 2012-11-14 at 04:15 PM.
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    It's notable that they think he is vulnerable to kryptonite, but he isn't in this case, but he is still vulnerable to magic. Somewhat.

    Would that help further the analogy?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    That seems like a lack of compelling drama to me, in a situation where people ARE going into dangerous situations there is supposed to be some element of risk.

    If negotiations go poorly? They have no reason to worry.

    If anything bad happens ever? There is no danger, emotional or otherwise because they can just make it better.

    It's part of why I do understand some people's dislike for things like Superman, only this is Magic Immune, Kryptonite Immune, Sword of Superman Possessing, White Lantern Ring Augmented, Sun Dipped Superman V.S. Aquaman in a desert world, under a blue sun.
    Yeah I get that. In the book itself the conflict was if this one human could beat the game that the book revolved around and in general it was the conflict around if they could reform this Empire without slaughtering everyone.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    it was the conflict around if they could reform this Empire without slaughtering everyone.
    Now why does that sound familiar.... ;)

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    And that's the issue I'm approaching, every issue where they HAVE been approached by these meta physics, it's worked out to nill.

    And that's why I was lobbying to get some form of advantage over to the bad guys side. Not because I want them to win, but because I want to see more driving force put behind the Culture's actions as far as acting goes.

    As is, I think there are area's they are working too fast in as well though, but no story bats a thousand. Especially one written here, without an editing staff and months of pre planning.

    I'm presenting a devils advocate view in order to provide conflict for the sake of constructing a more compelling story. This is an attempt at constructive criticism centered around elements in the story that are either poorly explained, or not addressed due to Jseahs own lack of knowledge about 40k.

    If we tie the Chaos Gods to positive emotions, it deepens the emotional trench. They risk destroying what makes people, people, and turning them essentially into oldcrons at the absolute best, and forces a non conventional solution to a non conventional problem, taking roads aside from the immediately obvious makes a story better so long as that road is believable, and has backing in the setting.

    I love Superhero comics, and I'm one of the first people to champion that higher power levels don't invalidate a good story because physical conflict isn't a necessary focus, but when you MAKE it a focus you need to be sure that the story remains compelling until the action is gone, and we can return to the emotions, and political side of the story. That's why Batman can dodge the Omega Effect when he's with the league, and other times gets tagged by a generic street criminal, or why people occasionally forget they have powers at all when fighting Captain America.
    Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-14 at 04:36 PM.
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    I love Superhero comics, and I'm one of the first people to champion that higher power levels don't invalidate a good story because physical conflict isn't a necessary focus, but when you MAKE it a focus you need to be sure that the story remains compelling until the action is gone, and we can return to the emotions, and political side of the story.
    But you are the only one arguing that it should be a focus?
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Even if it's become ignoreconned, I still like the idea of tying the Chaos Gods to positive emotions because of how well it underlines the themes of the setting. You know you've gone GRIMDARK when the God of Hope is an evil Manipulative Bastard and the God of Love was snuff-orgied into existence.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-11-14 at 04:38 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
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    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

  27. - Top - End - #627
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    But you are the only one arguing that it should be a focus?
    Because it has been made a focus at times, and when it is a focus, it should be compelling.

    The Necron Raid, the Chaos Warband, the Ad Mech raid.
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  28. - Top - End - #628
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Even if it's become ignoreconned, I still like the idea of tying the Chaos Gods to positive emotions because of how well it underlines the themes of the setting. You know you've gone GRIMDARK when the God of Hope is an evil Manipulative Bastard and the God of Love was snuff-orgied into existence.
    Agreed it was one my Favorite little timbits of fluff.

    (why did my spell check capitalize favorite?)
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    Meaning meat sacks are in fact in possession of something that the Minds aren't.

    Souls.

    And I wonder how a mind would take that?
    Well, it's kind of a non-issue since they, as Silica Animus, have Machine Spirits which are similar enough to souls that it really oughtn't to make a difference. Except that their machine spirits have been actively ignored rather than cared for, which can leave them vulnerable to Warp corruption.

    But I agree that the problem here seems to that the Culture has no limitations, in terms of capability or morality, and that makes for a really dull story.

    Use their existing weaknesses. Their citizens and technology are both wide open for Chaos corruption, and that's not something which can be easily changed. Their way of thinking is completely wrong for 40K, since it relies on an immutable rational reality to predict outcomes, where in 40K reality is less tangible than and controlled by belief. Their moral code, which is supposedly so strict that their society is a utopia without anything but popular sentiment keeping it that way, is 100% opposed to the actual measures they would need to take to survive in the 40K verse.

    I would be interested to see a genuine match-up, but this is like Batman v Thor where the two are locked in a 10ft by 10ft adamantium vault, Batman is naked and Thor has the Red Skull's personality.
    Last edited by Water_Bear; 2012-11-14 at 05:17 PM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    Well, it's kind of a non-issue since they, as Silica Animus, have Machine Spirits which are similar enough to souls that it really oughtn't to make a difference. Except that their machine spirits have been actively ignored rather than cared for, which can leave them vulnerable to Warp corruption.
    I thought Machine spirits didn't exist at all and were just part of the weird Technoreligion formed because they needed the tech, but science would lead them to question THE EMPRAH!
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