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  1. - Top - End - #691
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    I'm not so sure there's a distinction between "pure" hedonism which only hurts oneself/consenting partners/simulations and hedonism in general. Slaanesh isn't the God of Icky-Stuff-We-Wouldn't-Do, or even really the God of Illicit Pleasure, but the God of Pleasure in general. The fact that his cultists and those he corrupts hurt others is because they don't care about anything but their own pleasure, so they'll do anything for a thrill no matter who it hurts.
    There *IS* a distinction between hedonism and degradation. Between something you enjoy because it makes you feel good, and something you enjoy because it makes others feel bad.

    Slaanesh is sadistic.
    Does the innocent joy of a child empower Slaanesh? Does pride in a job well done, or a friend? How about the satisfaction that comes from spiritual wholeness or worship of the god emperor? I would say the indications are that none of them do. That Slaanesh is the prince of sadistic pleasure. Of degrading pleasure. Of pleasure carved from the joy of others. Otherwise, why does he encourage that behavior in his worshippers? If he gains from pleasure in all of its forms, why is he constantly pushing them into self destructive behaviour that lessens the pleasure of others? Unlike every other Chaos god, pleasure is not a self destructive emotion in and of itself. Bloodlust, sickness and change can't exist in stasis. Pleasure can. Sadism fits into the scheme of chaos much more neatly.

    Remember, Slaanesh is the weakest of the Chaos gods. By a distinct margin. And yet you're claiming he feeds on by far the widest spectrum of emotion.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Black Crusade pp 16
    Slaanesh represents ... the yearning for luxury and hedonistic over-indulgence, the exercise of cruel and unnatural passions, the pursuit of forbidden vices and unspeakable carnality. The Pleasure Lord always holds open the thrilling promise of the forbidden and the exotic beyond the boundaries of moral and societal lores.
    None of which is really the Culture mainstream... Maybe over-indulgence? Maybe? It's hard to say something is over-indulgence when it doesn't really have a cost, doesn't make other people worse off.
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  2. - Top - End - #692
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    The Culture are very over-indulgent as they pretty much indulge their every whim. Because that's all they have to do.

    Anyways Slaanash does have daemons that literally try and get artists to strive to make a perfect work and feeds off of them when they do try.

    So basically any over-indulgence will do. Working to become the perfect swordsman, an obsession with winning a game, even just the constant listening to music. Slaanash draws power from moving past restraint (which is why the Eldar's Paths are entirely about restraint.) no matter what kind it is.
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  3. - Top - End - #693
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    @Selhrac

    That seems like a nitpick though, given what we know about the Culture.

    Does Slaanesh get power from children picking flowers? Probably not much.
    Does he get power from vast drug-fueled orgies? Well, no duh.
    Body-modding to increase sensation and mate with other species? Sounds right.
    Doing things for no purpose but to savor the sensation? Pretty standard really.
    Simulating torture and non-consensual sex acts with perfect detail? Yup, definitely.

    Also remember that Souls exist in the 40K verse; degrading doesn't just mean "someone feels bad" it is a literal measurable condition of your immortal warp essence.
    Last edited by Water_Bear; 2012-11-15 at 04:19 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #694
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    So on the topic of a 'lost' chapter of Astartes. Here's what I am thinking...

    They just need to come off as a 'lost' group of Imperials in general, with some Archeotech that is decidedly rare, but not greatly beyond Imperial norms (other than the density of Archeotech).

    What they need to do is find a part of the Imperium that has been cut off by warp storms for at least a thousand years, with little to no records of what is beyond that 'wall' but where the warp storms aren't always the type that enter into realspace, or aren't ever the type that enter into realspace, thus enabling slower-than-light travel.

    Then, what they have to do is have a group of ships show up, coming out of this area at _slower than light speeds_, saying they are from beyond the wall, with archeotech stasis pods on their various ships, saying they are refugees from a Chaos war on their planets, where Chaos triggered some sort of insanely destructive Xenos device that destroyed the planet(s). Luckily, it was a 'slow' destruction, and it uncovered a cache of Archeotech, allowing the elite of the planets to equip themselves and fly away back to Imperial space in a desperate bit for vengeance!

    So a flotilla of ships, including a Battle Barge and several other Astartes ships, as well as a number of more Navy-style ships comes into some border system or something. These people (who havent been part of the Imperium for thousands of years) are somewhat confused by the current practices of The Imperium, but they are howling for vengeance for their dead families.

    And they include a whole chapter of Astartes, lots of PDF and SDF (trained and equipped more like Auxilia to the Astartes Chapter, and thus at a higher standard of equipment), and several Knights (this apparently was also a lost Knight World) -- all 'local', from a 'destroyed' set of planets...

    If the whole thing is a fleet equipped wayyyy beyond the 'standard' Imperial, and closer to the 'archeotech theoretical', they should be able to punch WAY above their weight class... without giving the enemy access to Culturetech. The fact that Imperial tech is often schizotech, with rare, occassional leaps to wayyyy higher tech than average, means that if someone made a concerted effort to equip a LARGE force with the best of the best, they would be able to do things that most Imperial forces couldn't do.

  5. - Top - End - #695
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    Does pride in a job well done, or a friend? How about the satisfaction that comes from spiritual wholeness or worship of the god emperor? I would say the indications are that none of them do.
    I would say that striving towards perfection and taking pride on doing their job well lead the Emperor's Children to Slaanesh.
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  6. - Top - End - #696
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    Do the Culture's citizens have the discipline and ruthlessness to actually impersonate Space Marines though?

    Like, would they be able/willing to participate in the burning of heretics or massacre of xenos/mutants or would some of them break cover to try to help? Can they maintain the appearance of a strict hierarchal chain of command and zealous worship of the God Emperor, things none of them has ever experienced which go utterly against their own ways of living? Would the "Chapter Master" even be able to command their "subordinants" or would everyone just do their own thing?
    Hey, the Culture's a big place. There's gotta be somebody who's interested in that kind of stuff. I'd imagine they'd be the same sort of people who would be LARPing today, though in their case, it'd probably take place in virtual reality. I'm sure the Culture has the technology to create a "real" experience for any group of LARPers, too, if that's what they want; even death isn't a huge deal when you can reload a mind-state, though I'd expect none but the most hardcore LARPers would go through that kind of trouble, because VR is good enough for most people. There's gotta be some people in the wide, wide Culture who would jump at the chance to be a part of a "real" Catholic Space Nazi Supermen LARP experience.
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  7. - Top - End - #697
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    Do the Culture's citizens have the discipline and ruthlessness to actually impersonate Space Marines though?

    Like, would they be able/willing to participate in the burning of heretics or massacre of xenos/mutants or would some of them break cover to try to help? Can they maintain the appearance of a strict hierarchal chain of command and zealous worship of the God Emperor, things none of them has ever experienced which go utterly against their own ways of living? Would the "Chapter Master" even be able to command their "subordinants" or would everyone just do their own thing?
    I'm not sure if they would be able to keep character during burning of heretics/xenos, but I'm pretty sure that they would have no problem keeping the strict chain of command and zealous worship of the God-Emperor.

    I mean, the Culture does have roleplayers; this is just an extremely scaled up LARP.
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  8. - Top - End - #698
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Keep in mind that what we have here is not the whole wide Culture, just the group of organics that arrived on the colonization fleet. Plenty of people, sure, but they don't grow in numbers nearly as fast as the ships can and they're nowhere near the numbers of the full Culture.
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  9. - Top - End - #699
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    But isn't The Culture basically capable of rapidly creating completely new biological people, with a loaded personality and memories, including the whole, 'sorry, but you are eight days old and we had to give you fake memories. the fake ones are all watermarked though, so you can tell. Here are the signed consent forms from the people who decided to be your memory and personality-parents. You don't have to do what we made you for, but we hope you do!' pretty much from scratch, if they want to?
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-15 at 05:16 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #700
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    But isn't The Culture basically capable of rapidly creating completely new biological people, with a loaded personality and memories, including the whole, 'sorry, but you are eight days old and we had to give you fake memories. the fake ones are all watermarked though, so you can tell. Here are the signed consent forms from the people who decided to be your memory and personality-parents. You don't have to do what we made you for, but we hope you do!' pretty much from scratch, if they want to?
    Why would they do that? Hasn't it been established already that the Citizens of the Culture are pretty much unnecessary.
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  11. - Top - End - #701
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Why would they do that? Hasn't it been established already that the Citizens of the Culture are pretty much unnecessary.
    If you are making a fake (but relatively authentic reproduction) fleet of Imperials from a lost planet, including soldiers and army, and a 'lost' Astartes chapter, you will need at least several hundred thousand biped organic humans, transhumans, and abhumans. Okay, less, if you have a crazy high amount of Servitors, and some extremely capable (but still Imperial standard type) factory ships in the fleet to make replacement servitors. Get a bunch of plasma refining ships, some of the mechanicum factory ships that can make anything (including servitors), and you don't NEED that many, you can just have servitors for the crew and murder servitors and weaponized servitors for troops and such...

    In fact, if it had a variety of abhuman body types that aren't considered xenos, but are often considered 'allowed' stable mutations (ie, recognized abhumans), it might be a good way to introduce some societal change, to boot.

    An unknown, but 'loyalist' astartes chapter living next to some fleet-based humans and abhumans of various sorts (this could also be a reason for why/how they 'lost' their navigators and psykers and astropaths), with PDF forces that contains a high percentage mutants that are similar in body and genetics to the other 'allowed' mutations (scalies, ratlings, the modern flavor stuff that is similar to squats [ie, high g abhumans], neandor, felinid, pelager, longshank, troth, etc. -- though they would want to have some excuse to stay away from the dumber types, like ogryn and beastmen)... if this group of transhumans, abhumans, and normal humans fought a successful Crusade against Chaos...?

    Of course, this group would have to have some sort of archeotech that successfully helps stabilize mutations over time and can check for chaos-based mutations vs normal non-chaos mutations, which would allow this sort of diversity...

    Just create a sort of distorted mirror of The Culture with Imperial standard technology and culture and what is 'allowed' in the Imperium. Strength through diversity and technology and drones and robotics and such. Just consolidate copies of the tech and diversity that is mostly spread out lightyears apart all in one place, to make the 'mirror'.

    Of course, the Imperium might not just welcome these wayward children with open arms... but they are sitting on a ton of archeotech, so it would have a reason to make nice to them...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-15 at 06:26 PM.

  12. - Top - End - #702
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    If you are making a fake (but relatively authentic reproduction) fleet of Imperials from a lost planet, including soldiers and army, and a 'lost' astartes chapter, you will need at least several hundred thousand biped organic humans, transhumans, and abhumans.

    In fact, if it had a variety of abhuman body types that aren't considered xenos, but are often considered 'allowed' stable mutations (ie, recognized abhumans), it might be a good way to introduce some societal change, to boot.

    An unknown, but 'loyalist' astartes chapter living next to some fleet-based humans and abhumans of various sorts (this could also be a reason for why/how they 'lost' their navigators and psykers and astropaths), with PDF forces that contains a high percentage mutants that are similar in body and genetics to the other 'allowed' mutations (scalies, ratlings, the modern flavor stuff that is similar to squats [ie, high g abhumans], neandor, felinid, pelager, longshank, troth, etc. -- though they would want to have some excuse to stay away from the dumber types, like ogryn and beastmen)... if this group of transhumans, abhumans, and normal humans fought a successful Crusade against Chaos...?

    Of course, this group would have to have some sort of archeotech that successfully helps stabilize mutations over time and can check for chaos-based mutations vs normal non-chaos mutations, which would allow this sort of diversity...

    Just create a sort of distorted mirror of The Culture with Imperial standard technology and culture and what is 'allowed'. Strength through diversity and technology and such.

    Of course, the Imperium might not just welcome these wayward children with open arms... but they are sitting on a ton of archeotech, so it would have a reason to make nice to them...
    That's not a good plan.

    First of all, the lie is full of ridiculous holes. They "lost" all their Navigators and Astropaths but are still capable of moving and communicating FTL? They have an entire Space Marine Chapter without a single Psyker, who refuse to donate their Geneseed to the AdMech for purification? They just happen to have a whole bunch of tech no-one has ever seen before which doesn't come from any known STC printout?

    Secondly, that's a really huge complex operation to trust to a group of anarchists. What if some of the "Imperial Guard" decide they don't feel like following orders that day? Or if even a small portion of the population isn't comfortable with watching heretics and mutants burned at the stake, or supporting a society actively committing xenocide? One or two STC Agents could keep their covers, maybe, but I'm not seeing "several hundred thousand" Culture citizens being able to keep up the ruse.

    Also, I keep seeing this idea come up and I have no idea where it's coming from, but Archaeotech is not the magic code-word for unfamiliar technology not being Heretical. Unless they're using tech the Imperium already knows about or they've got some STC printouts (or convincing fakes) they're going to be under some pretty serious scrutiny, and the AdMech is going to be on their case either way. And a non-Warp FTL is never going to pass for Archaeotech, because humans have never had such a device.

  13. - Top - End - #703
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    I didn't say anything about them showing non-warp FTL. And no, they werent capable of moving in FTL, or communicating in FTL. The ships were acting mostly as slowships, stasis-ships, with skeleton crews and occassional stops to wake and get plasma from stars and such and mine an oort cloud and refine it, and only AFTER do they get back to Imperial space (and get Navigators), do they gain access to FTL from their Warp drives again (that's the story). But yes, canonically, there are cogitators that get past the '5 lightyear jump'... they're suppressed by the Navigator guilds, but they do exist. They might have access to one of those on a scout ship, but no other ships use it, for example. Thus, the ships would all have been moving slower than lightspeed.... that's how they got past the warp storm, it was a 'warp only, not realspace' warpstorm.

    And they only have tech that has been seen before. That's kinda the point. The idea is to ONLY use tech that is somewhere else in the Imperium, but is maybe considered unique -- just copies of that tech that Imperial technology can't duplicate. And why wouldn't they donate their geneseed back to the Ad Mech once they get back?

    The idea would NOT be to use any unknown tech at all, anywhere!

    I meant that the idea was to have a big enough group that no one will question them too deeply, and that they have a good amount of individual decision-making capability. People have private armies or have done 'private crusades' and made their own fleets all the time.

    But yes, the plan is probably full of holes... I was trying to push the 'found an Astartes Chapter' a bit further, to see how far it could be pushed.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-15 at 07:15 PM.

  14. - Top - End - #704
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    In another way to describe it...

    The Imperium is full of lostech, archeotech, or unique or semi-unique technologies -- mostly unknown or not understood.

    These are often passed down as relics, often of the Astartes, or kept in displays for the nobility, or prized by the Inquisition, or hidden away by the Mechanicum, or are in a vault somewhere, forgotten and lost.

    However, if a very, very intelligent group with Super Sensors were able to (say), do molecular level scan every bit of technology in tens of thousands of Imperial star systems, getting past pretty much all methods of shielding...

    And then they were to collate, tag, interpret, and comprehend all of the technologies available anywhere in tens of thousands of Imperial worlds, all across several sectors...

    And then they were able to take the pick of the litter, and equip groups of people with exact copies of the best of the best of those technologies, done with a deep understanding of what each bit is capable of and how it will and won't work with other technologies...

    Than whatever group that was equipped that way would be at least one order of magnitude higher tech level than the rest of the Imperium.

    All with known technologies; indeed, if they were scanned, than whoever magos scanned them would be able to find that these are things that are (at least similar to descriptions of known) technologies that are somewhere in the Imperium in general.

    Does that make sense? You don't need to go beyond what is available in the Imperium to have really swank stuff! That's kind of what schizotech means. If someone were to take EVERYTHING from everywhere, the pick of the litter wouldn't be schizotech at all; it'd be high tech.

    However, in order to do this, and have it not be seen as xenostech... whatever group would have to be very, very, very careful to not go beyond what is already extant somewhere in the Imperium... and every bit would have to seem old, even if in great condition.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-15 at 08:40 PM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Only using known tech might work, even though it is still going to be pretty suspicious if they really are using tons of facsimile archaeotech or even just abnormally high quality tech, especially if they're supposed to have been kicking around for a few millenia. The Imperium has seen enough Trojan Horses to know when to look one in the mouth, if you can follow that butchered aphorism.

    The thing with the Geneseed though... I get the Culture has picotechnology and instant flawless cloning and everything, but they really shouldn't be able to replicate Geneseed. That's just so wrong, it's hard to even explain. I'm not saying they couldn't do it, but that's just so un-40K it's depressing.

    My suggestion, other than applying the Culture's weaknesses to Chaos, is that the IoM desperately needs a power boost. Giving them an STC via Emperor ex Machina and/or just waking the SoB up is really the only option to keep it even remotely competitive. Otherwise this is just a slo-mo demolition of one of the most interesting SF civilizations by one of the least, and that's really really sad.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Uhm. The Imperium, canonically, has been in slow-mo demolition for at least hundreds of years, maybe thousands..? And lots of people in The Imperium know it...

    Also, don't Kroot that fight Astartes get more Astartes-like?




    Also, why is that even relevant that the Imperium be able to do anything but lose, technologically? You don't need to give stone-age natives (even if they have really good math and astronomy) a 'chance' against Imperialists with high quality steel and cannons and warships and plate armor to have an interesting story about a higher tech group encountering a lower tech group. It just means that, due to the framing of the situation, certain parts of the story are probably going to happen in a certain way...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-15 at 08:47 PM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Uhm. The Imperium, canonically, has been in slow-mo demolition for at least hundreds of years, maybe thousands..? And lots of people in The Imperium know it...

    Also, don't Kroot that fight Astartes get more Astartes-like?
    Kroot that fight (and eat) anything become more like it. For instance, Kroot that ate Dark Eldar in one war became progressively more brutal, cunning, and sadistic as it went on because they take on cultural and physical aspects as they eat more and more of any one specific prey.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Kroot that fight (and eat) anything become more like it. For instance, Kroot that ate Dark Eldar in one war became progressively more brutal, cunning, and sadistic as it went on because they take on cultural and physical aspects as they eat more and more of any one specific prey.
    Providing they do eat it, at least - their Shapers can sense Chaos and Tyranid-tainted genes, for instance, and won't touch them.

    That might be something the Culture would be interesting in investigating, once they're better friends with the Tau - the Kroot ability to function as living genetic scanners and their instinctual ability to rewrite their own genetic code.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Uhm. The Imperium, canonically, has been in slow-mo demolition for at least hundreds of years, maybe thousands..? And lots of people in The Imperium know it...
    The difference is that the Imperium is going down swinging, and being incredibly badass while doing so. I'm going to touch on this more below, but the Imperium of Man is the reaction of humanity to a bleak and chaotic universe; to say "No" and force Order onto it even if that means being utterly annihilated. If the Imperium dies (not quite a sure thing yet...) it should be in a centuries-long blaze of destruction that takes most of the galaxy with it, not being assimilated by an overpowered alien dystopia.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Also, why is that even relevant that the Imperium be able to do anything but lose, technologically? You don't need to give stone-age natives (even if they have really good math and astronomy) a 'chance' against Imperialists with high quality steel and cannons and warships and plate armor to have an interesting story about a higher tech group encountering a lower tech group. It just means that, due to the framing of the situation, certain parts of the story are probably going to happen in a certain way...
    Well, judging by the success of Dances with Smurfs and our fascination with beating advanced alien invasions in action movies I'd say giving the "stone age natives" a fighting chance if not outright victory is certainly reasonable from a story-writing perspective. Watching a powerful bully grind a weakling into the dust isn't quite entertaining enough to fill a 90 minute run-time so there needs to be either some kind of parity or an underdog situation.

    But also, it's important that the Imperium be able to win because I desperately want them to win, or at least for the Culture to lose. The idea of a massive rich universe full of countless epic struggles to hold back an inevitable slide into decay, literally powered by the human will, being ground into a fine powder so that smug aliens can snort it while looking at seven-dimensional porn is an absolutely unbelievable injustice.
    Last edited by Water_Bear; 2012-11-15 at 09:19 PM. Reason: diction.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    keyword inevitable slide into decay. The story of the fall of an empire, by a more vigorous empire is a very human story... as is the story of a group finding a place with lower tech natives and overhwelming them.

    These sorts of things happened in history, and can still make good drama... even if everyone has a pretty good idea on how its going to end...

    Also, I hated Dancing With Smurfs (the Avatar movie for those of you unfamiliar with the jargon). The humans should have won; they needed that room temperature superconductor so that billions wouldn't die.

    Seriously, its okay for the underdog to lose sometimes. The Aztecs had it coming. I'm not saying that Cortez was a nice guy, but he was way more ethical than the Aztecs. And I'm okay with the idea that he conquered the Aztecs in general... same goes here...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-15 at 09:28 PM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Also, I hated Dancing With Smurfs (the Avatar movie for those of you unfamiliar with the jargon). The humans should have won; they needed that room temperature superconductor so that billions wouldn't die.
    I was rooting for the Colonel personally; he won my eternal respect when he went out into the poison atmosphere to shoot at the hippies with an assault rifle while on fire. But yeah, I'm generally pro-human and anti-stupidity so the movie's outcome was really irritating. The visuals were epic though.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    If you're anti-stupidity, why are you supporting the Imperium so much? Remember, the Culture is largely human(not necessarily earth based humanity).
    He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    If you're anti-stupidity, why are you supporting the Imperium so much? Remember, the Culture is largely human(not necessarily earth based humanity).
    As a Imperium of Man supporter, I do note that I do have to agree.

    The Culture losing, while an interesting thought, would not be to the Imperium of Man barring them getting stupid and resurrecting The God Emperor himself.

    The only way this would realistically happen is to Chaos, and then only through either a massive Daemon drop on top of an unaware ROU with most of it's combat capable citizens deployed, and the mind converted pre hand by sorcery, or by gazing into the warp.

    That does leave me to wonder, how is "Golden Goose" protecting itself from madness by Warp gaze? Viewing the warp unprotected, or even through a gellar field for a non navigator is instant insanity, or at least a gradual corruption.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Anyway, lets consider if some group did something similar to that plan, on our world. As a hypothetical to set a frame of reference. Let's say that a thorough scan of our world was done, and then suddenly there appears a moderate-to-small sized mixed military force somewhere. This group has access to the best of anything that anyone has ever come up with on the planet.


    The rarest, most expensive space age materials, used wherever appropriate? Check. Equipment from any number of nations that is basically still being researched or is classified, or was locked up as considered too expensive to use for wider use? Check. Medical technology that is behind closed doors in some research area of corporation or other, working with other items from another corporation, in a cohesive whole? Check. Extremely high end, equivalent to 'built in a lab to further state of the art' engines for anything they need to power? Check. The best small shop, artisan built or custom-built weaponry, but on a larger scale? Check. Highly tweaked, custom fabricated and hand-loaded ammunition, with the cleanest burning powders? Check. Access to any unknown plants that are still in some forest somewhere, that has any property that anyone anywhere knows, or any drugs to do anything (even things companies are sitting on and haven't brought to market, or are tied up in patent issues or other lawsuits)? Check. Satellite and air support as necessary? Check.

    And then give everyone in the military, arbitrarily, skills equivalent to PhD's and decades of experience in making, repairing, fabricating, modifying all of the above. They'd be able to take on all comers!



    Now consider this in the scale of the Imperium... and note that the Imperium doesn't fight wars in ways that we would consider 'modern' due primarily to the fact that they are unable to give logistical support that we would consider relevant for fighting wars, American-style, to most of their soldiers. Now consider if some group did manage to have that support, and no entrenched preconceptions about how wars should be fought that tend to come from those limitations... for crying out loud, they would have access to Fellblades, power armor for non-Astartes troops (though you wouldnt want to use it for everyone, cause it isn't stealthy), absurdly advanced batteries and power generators and reactors and such that you generally don't see in modern Imperial deployment, railguns and coilguns, plasma weapons that don't overheat... laser weapons beyond the capability of standard Imperium, a huge variety of gravitic tech and lifters and jetbikes... robots and drones of various sorts... an absurd amount of energy shields on any scale you care to name (personal, vehicle, walker, etc.)... a plethora of automatically guided missiles, smart targeting, laser and IR tagging, and other smart weapons... there is a ton of stuff all over the place described as archeotech or rare in the Imperium, but that is still described as being there!
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-15 at 10:54 PM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    If you're anti-stupidity, why are you supporting the Imperium so much? Remember, the Culture is largely human(not necessarily earth based humanity).
    I like the Imperium because they are an endless font of badass, though I absolutely concede that they are very deeply stupid. Personally I want to see Warhammer 30K; Imperial Truth edition to mitigate that, but that would be low on GrimDark and not have as visually interesting miniatures, so that's not going to happen.

    Also, Human = Homo Sapiens Sapiens and our Trans/Post-Human descendants (fingers crossed), not whatever collection of Klingons and Wookies you can dig up. I don't really see why a species that probably doesn't even have mitochondria should get to use our name, much less try to dictate morality to us.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    I like the Imperium because they are an endless font of badass, though I absolutely concede that they are very deeply stupid. Personally I want to see Warhammer 30K; Imperial Truth edition to mitigate that, but that would be low on GrimDark and not have as visually interesting miniatures, so that's not going to happen.
    Are you familiar with the Culture at all? You seem to dismiss them without much reason.
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    Also, Human = Homo Sapiens Sapiens and our Trans/Post-Human descendants (fingers crossed), not whatever collection of Klingons and Wookies you can dig up. I don't really see why a species that probably doesn't even have mitochondria should get to use our name, much less try to dictate morality to us.
    Why should anyone dictate morality to anyone?

    And, well, I can't see the difference. How is it different than, say, differences within the Human race today?
    He fears his fate too much, and his reward is small, who will not put it to the touch, to win or lose it all.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Are you familiar with the Culture at all? You seem to dismiss them without much reason.

    Why should anyone dictate morality to anyone?

    And, well, I can't see the difference. How is it different than, say, differences within the Human race today?
    Base, and radical difference in genetic make up for one?
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Humanity also includes several races of humanity that were just as sapient and sentient as us (maybe even smarter), but that died out before we took over the Earth. Just saying.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Are you familiar with the Culture at all? You seem to dismiss them without much reason.
    I've been trying to avoid restarting the philosophical argument from the first thread. Basically I've seen and read enough to know the general details of the plots of the books, the nature and history of the setting and of Ian Bank's philosophy, and that they are all fairly repugnant to me personally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Why should anyone dictate morality to anyone?
    I have no idea. It seems like a huge waste of time, and in the Culture's case pretty seriously hypocritical, but people insist on doing it. Maybe it's something I'm missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    And, well, I can't see the difference. How is it different than, say, differences within the Human race today?
    Humans are a single species and an unusually homogeneous one at that; the innate differences between people born on opposite sides of the planet are so superficial that they are barely worth mentioning. In a sane universe, creatures who evolved on planets hundreds or thousands of light-years away are going to be pretty seriously distinct even if they somehow approximate our appearance. If we're closer on the evolutionary tree to the Archaea than to them, well that pretty much speaks for itself.

    I'm guessing that you meant in a personhood sense, and I can't help you there. It's arbitrary either way, and largely irrelevant from my point of view, so it comes down to preference and I prefer a human-dominant universe to the alternatives.
    Last edited by Water_Bear; 2012-11-15 at 11:08 PM. Reason: Bad formatting.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Why would a human dominant galaxy be better than one where humans share with nonhuman intelligences, transhumans, post-humans that are only fathomable to some transhumans, human-analogues made with different types of biology, humans made with different types of basic genes entirely (ie, swap the orientation of the DNA to be mirrored fit a different planet's biology), distributed intelligences, uplifted animals (both alien and terran), various human-alien artificial hybrids, various AIs, various exotic alien intelligences, etc. etc.?



    ....you chose the Renegade ending in Mass Effect, didn't you??
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-15 at 11:36 PM.

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