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  1. - Top - End - #781
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    Last time on RT: http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showp...&postcount=255

    part 7.5 Rogue Trader
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    Week 1
    Golden Goose has tailed the Rogue Trader to a Hive world where he proceeded to recruit some crew. The Dauntless is now at full strength but the Lunar is still short some people.

    As he began to leave orbit with impulse drives, he received a message from the planet's astropathic choir coded with a one time pad. The Rogue Trader appeared to be able to read the message without reference to any pads at all. A mind scan indicated that he was decoding it in his head but the scan was too fragmented to decode the message. We did register anger and fear as a response however.

    Week 2
    The Rogue Trader has arrived at a nearby Farm world and has recruited enough crew to fully man his Lunar. Trading of various commodities appears to have drawn the attention of the inquisition, although he has so far remained ahead of any investigation simply by moving faster than them.

    The Lunar has been refurbished to make more space for cargo, converting a few short range macrocannons to storage areas.

    As he made a trading run to a mining world, picking up enough material to manufacture an asteroid mining platform, he was challenged by the orbital authorities under the command by the Inquistion. The investigation team ordered him to disengage his drive and allow them to board his ship to look for xenotech. The Rogue Trader barely managed to escape boarding by engaging his impulse drives and outrunning the Inquistion-commanded vessels with his hyperspace drive to give him a small boost (running at 10^-5 %)

    The IoM has noticed that his ship's plasma plume did not match his observed acceleration and has taken it as evidence that his ship contains xenotech.

    Inquisition is getting interested. This is roughly concurrent with the Culture starting to talk with the IoM, although they are nowhere near enough for the news to have reached here yet.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Interesting! I suppose its time for the RT to go to an independent shipyard.... ie, a pirate yard...

    Also, the Necron post could use a bit more explanation regarding that 'hostile' trade. How they realized what was going on, how it was asked for, etc.

  3. - Top - End - #783
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Interesting! I suppose its time for the RT to go to an independent shipyard.... ie, a pirate yard...

    Also, the Necron post could use a bit more explanation regarding that 'hostile' trade. How they realized what was going on, how it was asked for, etc.
    I'll try on the Necrons.

    Do pirate yards even exist? Shipyards are kind of a big affair and would certainly require some extensive mining operations to support. Seems unlikely that the IoM wouldn't spot something like that and wouldn't get rid of it.

  4. - Top - End - #784
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    Do pirate yards even exist? Shipyards are kind of a big affair and would certainly require some extensive mining operations to support. Seems unlikely that the IoM wouldn't spot something like that and wouldn't get rid of it.
    Yes they do. Generally hidden in asteroid fields, or out of the way systems, sometimes in even more out of the way places like warp storms.
    The IoM has nowhere near enough resources or territorial control to find and destroy all pirate bases. Although doing so is definitely part of the duties of the Imperial Navy.
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  5. - Top - End - #785
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    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    Yes they do. Generally hidden in asteroid fields,
    ??? How does that even work?

    You can't possibly hide something like a ship under construction. At least not from anything else in the same system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    or out of the way systems, sometimes in even more out of the way places like warp storms.
    This makes more sense, but all it takes is one scout frigate to jump into the system and jump out before anyone else can catch it. (not difficult since they certainly can't picket an entire star system)

    And if the warp storms prevent jumping, how did they get there in the first place? (or still get customers if they were there before the storm was)

  6. - Top - End - #786
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    You can't possibly hide something like a ship under construction. At least not from anything else in the same system.
    Not in the same system as an Imperium planet, but just as an extra level of security over building a planetside base. Imperium scanners do have a hard time scanning asteroid fields.

    I would say though, most Pirate shipyards will just be for refitting and fixing ships, rather than constructing them. Most pirate vessels will be looted, salvaged or turncloaks. The constructor ones...

    And if the warp storms prevent jumping, how did they get there in the first place? (or still get customers if they were there before the storm was)
    Warp storms don't really have predictable effects. The biggest haven for pirates in the galaxy is the Maelstrom, a region of warp storms rivalled only by the Eye of Terror, but not quite so Chaos dominated. It's hard to get in to those areas, but the navigators and crew know the tricks and routes that will let them pass in and out *relatively* unharmed, while IN ships would get smashed by squalls.

    It is in these almost unassailable fortresses that great pirate empires arise, in lawless regions outside Imperial justice. This kind of area is where vessels intended for Piracy are constructed and purpose built for the task.

    This makes more sense, but all it takes is one scout frigate to jump into the system and jump out before anyone else can catch it.
    And then for a fleet of a dozen vessels to be dragged off from patrols and military work to scourge an area of space that is probably fortified, to attack an enemy who will probably have stripped their base bare and left before your fleet even arrives. If you get lucky and find the pirate fleet and they want to fight? Then they probably think they can win, and in attacking them in their home turf you run the risk of them capturing a dozen war ships to add to their fleet.
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  7. - Top - End - #787
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    part 7.5 Necrons - in detail
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    Transcript of relevant Necron communications concerning the technology transfer: (relevant sections taken out of the more confusing and sometimes illogical context)

    Week 1
    N: "The Necrons note that the Culture has some desirable technology. "
    C: "We are amenable to a technology trade if you so desire it. "
    <<intermission for two days, the Culture becomes convinced through other means that talking of "trade" or any form of exchange appears to trigger a temporary bout of insanity>>
    C: "Concerning our respective knowledge, we also note that the Necrons have some desirable technology. "
    N (immediate reply): "The Necrons will not grant the Culture or anyone knowledge of Necron technology. "

    C1 (internal communication from White Devil to Curiousity Saved the Cat) : "I believe they're trying to make friends. "
    C2 (reply) : "What makes you think that?"
    C1: "He just wants to trade without actually trading. "
    C2: "Why don't you take over the negotiations?"
    <<White Devil is now responsible for primary commuications concerning the potential technology trade>>

    Week 2
    C: "If the Necrons will not grant the Culture or anyone knowledge of Necron technology, then the Culture will not grant Necrons knowledge of Culture technology. Which you have noted is desirable. "
    N: "There will be no discussion of this matter. "
    C: "If the Culture were to attack and seize some technology..."
    N: "Then we will attack the Culture as far as practical to get it back. "
    <<White Devil notes that 'practical' appears to be roughly equivalent to 'not at all'>>
    C: "If the Culture were to give the Necrons some-"
    N: "The Necrons do not accept technology from other races. "
    C: "If the Necrons were to attack the Culture and in the process capture some items of technological interest, would the Necrons-"
    N: "The Necrons will claim ownership of any item left on a Tomb World. "
    <<White Devil is now convinced that the Necrons are trying to ask for a technology trade>>
    C: "We find that the Necrons have interesting knowledge of Warp effects and sub-atomic engineering. We are very interested in learning more about the Warp. "

    Week 3
    N: "The Necrons do not teach. We are researching a method to enhance or correct errors in inorganic intelligence. "
    C: "What will the Necrons consider a ceasefire-breaking event?"
    N: "A fusion-plasma reaction drive landing on a Tomb World would be considered a violation of our informal ceasefire. "
    C: "What actions might the Necrons take against such a potential attack?"
    N: "We will attempt to take control of the starship, no attacks against a Tomb World will be tolerated. "
    <<The exchange is carried out>>
    N: "The Culture's hostile actions against this Tomb World must stop. "
    C: "We apologize for the independent action. We had a minor problem of an intelligence malfunction. The Culture emphasizes its peaceful relationship with the Necrons. "
    N: "The Necrons regard the Culture as honourable enemies and will grant a temporary ceasefire. "

    It also seems that I forgot about the history request. Will the Necrons talk about their past?

  8. - Top - End - #788
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    The glory days of their empire are pretty much all they exist for, so I doubt they'd be unwilling - though the Lord would only be able to give personal accounts of the parts he was involved in. It, of course, would all be heavily slanted to paint the Eldar and their Old One masters in the worst possible light, the C'tan in a slightly less worse light, and the Necrontyr themselves as the best things ever...but I'll bet the Culture is used to filtering that sort of stuff out. Now, if a certain Trazyn the Infinite happened to pass by - maybe he intercepted/overheard the message sent out by the Tomb World and decided to come check for interesting treasures - he'd be able to give a much more complete version, and probably a lot more neutral one, if he had incentive to do so.



    In the scope of the 40K universe, the Necrons are the 'Back In My Day' old man, crossed with the 'You Kids Get Off My Lawn' old man, dual-wielding antimatter disintegrator rifles and with a real bad temper.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-11-21 at 09:46 AM.

  9. - Top - End - #789
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    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    I'll try on the Necrons.

    Do pirate yards even exist? Shipyards are kind of a big affair and would certainly require some extensive mining operations to support. Seems unlikely that the IoM wouldn't spot something like that and wouldn't get rid of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    ??? How does that even work?

    You can't possibly hide something like a ship under construction. At least not from anything else in the same system.

    This makes more sense, but all it takes is one scout frigate to jump into the system and jump out before anyone else can catch it. (not difficult since they certainly can't picket an entire star system)
    Hey there. Quit. You're thinking realistically. You're thinking that asteroid belts are really non-dense, and that any ship can just come in to a system, do a visual scan of the place, and have a good idea of anything big or hot or whatever, and then leave... and that stealth doesn't work in space.

    This is a realistic view of things.

    It also isn't how this setting works. Have you played Wing Commander? Or most any of the 'ships in space' science fiction games? Homeword, Nexus, Privateer, Freelancer, Freespace, various Star Wars games, etc.? Where Asteroid Belts are really really dense, and huuuuuge pirate bases can most DEFINITELY hide in asteroid belts (as long as they are built out of the rocks themselves? And that space sensors are REALLY short range and tend to kind of suck? And you have to actually send craft into a pirate owned asteroid field, and they have to get REALLY CLOSE to the base, scan it, and have them get out alive, and then back to a place where they can jump out for them to successfully have intel on the base? Yea, it's like that.


    So, yes, it's plausible to consider that everyone in the setting has sensors worse than late 20th century telescopes plugged into late 20th century computers, doing visual and infrared scans of the area around them... however you want to make that out, I suppose. Anyone want to take a shot at why this is?
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-21 at 04:07 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #790
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    *claps*

    That is generally the best way to get 40k people to work with you, by making them think that they're pulling one over on you.

  11. - Top - End - #791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fan View Post
    *claps*

    That is generally the best way to get 40k people to work with you, by making them think that they're pulling one over on you.
    I don't understand. What is this in reply to?

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    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    I don't understand. What is this in reply to?
    I believe that's a reply to the Necron bit...

  13. - Top - End - #793
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    part 7.5 Rogue Trader
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    The Rogue Trader has arrived at a pirate shipyard after escaping from the Inquisition. He seems to be rather discouraged at the Inquisition's chase of his ship.

    Repairs and recruitment of pirate crew are underway. He has agreed to provide equipment, primarily military in nature, in exchange for the payment for repairs and wages of his crew.

    Week 3
    The Rogue Trader has completed repairs and has recruited excess crew on both ship and is jumping to an uninhabited system in order to set up an independent mining operation using the nanobots and the plans for an asteroid miner. He intends to use the excess crew to run the miner to feed the nanobot construction.

    Of note is an astropathic message he sent from his ship while in transit. The message also uses a one-time pad encoding that he performed from memory and so is undecipherable. Nevertheless, we suspect it is related to the first message he received.
    The string is attached, request for all Culture vessels to monitor astropathic choirs for the outgoing string.

    Rogue Trader - Decoded Messages (note that one-time pads are of fixed length, in this case, 180 characters not including message headers)
    Incoming: INQUISITION SUSPECTS XENOTECH USE, AVOID INVESTIGATION AT ALL COSTS. DETAILS ON XENOTECH DESIRED AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA

    Outgoing: INVESTIGATION AVOIDED. INQUISITION ON TAIL, WILL TURN PIRATE UNDERCOVER. DETAILS TOO LONG TO NOTE, OF IMMENSE IMPORTANCE. REQUEST ASSISTANCE AAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA AAAAA

    Decoded messages provided for your viewing, the Culture does not know of these. The outgoing message hasn't arrived yet.

    The message channel consists of multiple backup safeties, including using a circuitous routing of the Astropathic choirs that spans a good portion of the galaxy (each endpoint decodes the transmission header to find the next endpoint, similar to bouncing messages through proxies in RL internet; and 'trusted' endpoints are used).
    The final astropathic choir is on a self-sufficient mini-space station in interstellar space. Incoming messages, aka. the message the RT sends, will be moved by warp to a specific deaddrop location in interstellar space (the message capsule is cooled to microwave background before being released and made from radar absorbent material. It's essentially invisible unless you know exactly where to use a Lidar pulse to find a strangely large object for interstellar space)
    Then a 'message received' astropathic signal (also in code, something like 'AAA') sent to the actual receiver who then goes and gets it.
    The final astropathic choir is a handpicked choir that is known for total loyalty, and still that choir is the weakest link in the chain. Everyone else only knows exactly one piece of information. But these guys know two, the existence of high security messages and which choir they need to send a simple three letter code to when they pick something up.
    Obviously, the one-time pads don't exist anymore except in the heads of the two communicating people. Not to mention, 'chaff' messages are also mixed into the chain where various astropathic choirs just send random strings at random times of the same length as each one time pad around random endpoints in a similar bouncing pattern.

    All in all, they can't send long messages and it does take a week for it to travel one way, but this is about the most secure method for making messages untraceable by just about anyone. Including the Culture or any other curious inquisitors.

    *rolls dice* hmm, interesting.

  14. - Top - End - #794
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    How is the Culture intercepting Astropath messages again?


    Also reading Psyker minds could actually be pretty dangerous. Strong Psykers essentially are 'seeing' the warp constantly which can be corrupting to an unitiated mind. (One of the reasons that practically every unsanctioned and untrainged psyker in the Imperium ends up serving Chaos.)
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  15. - Top - End - #795
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    Just physically listening in to the choir itself, as I understand. So when the choir are given instructions, they pick up the message then, but once the message is away, it's all mind-to-mind so they're unlikely to pick anything up on the relays.

    Least, as I recall.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Also... astropathic messages aren't like that. They are more in symbols and analogy. Symbols from, you know... blind psychic seers. Every sort of 'vision' you would think a blind psychic seer would have, that is how astropath chiors communicate. Things like a throne of fire, five black spheres floating in the void, a hand clutching a sword, blade first and bloody, etc. etc.

    Though some short range messages are actual words and concepts and stuff...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-22 at 11:07 AM.

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    Tiki snakes: yeah, they just physically bug the choir. So the Culture gets messages as they enter the chain and when they leave, but not anywhere else.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Also... astropathic messages aren't like that. They are more in symbols and analogy. Symbols from, you know... blind psychic seers. Every sort of 'vision' you would think a blind psychic seer would have, that is how astropath chiors communicate. Things like a throne of fire, five black spheres floating in the void, a hand clutching a sword, blade first and bloody, etc. etc.

    Though some short range messages are actual words and concepts and stuff...
    You can use that to form an alphabet. >.> Come on, it's basic encoding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    You can use that to form an alphabet. >.> Come on, it's basic encoding.
    Well, possibly. But I thought the whole idea was that they were, as you said, just bugging them?
    The culture don't have any meaningful way of intercepting the encoded images anyway, so it's kind of a moot point.
    (If they tried reading their minds, they'd presumably get the un-encoded version anyway, if warp related hilarity didn't ensue instead. Which it very much is likely to).

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    Well Astropaths do also use encoding and cryptography and such... but for long distance messages, you generally get very very few images to send (maybe under 10?), so it has do be done via emotions and images that the lead astropath manages to interpret, via experience, into some sort of coherent message.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Well Astropaths do also use encoding and cryptography and such... but for long distance messages, you generally get very very few images to send (maybe under 10?), so it has do be done via emotions and images that the lead astropath manages to interpret, via experience, into some sort of coherent message.
    This is an astropathic chain in a well-inhabited area of the galaxy though. There aren't any really long distance messages that don't go through a relay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    This is an astropathic chain in a well-inhabited area of the galaxy though. There aren't any really long distance messages that don't go through a relay.
    As long as it gets more difficult out in the boonies... It shouldn't be impossible, of course, even out at the recently inhabited areas, to bug a choir, but the images they get should be prone to being misinterpreted by any involved--including the astropaths themselves. Still, the images are types that are made for the human mind to interpret, so there is that...


    And if they bug an astropath as they report the message to others, they will get the difference between what they say they see when interacting with the choir, and what they report...


    Also, not all of the bugged choirs are near the center of the Imperium, right?? Some of the stuff the Culture is doing is towards the edge?
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-22 at 12:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Also, not all of the bugged choirs are near the center of the Imperium, right?? Some of the stuff the Culture is doing is towards the edge?
    They came in from the western edge, so there's those as well. I guess the Culture will have noticed the fact that some messages don't match the sending. Nevertheless, if you use an alphabet, you can include error correction.

    Astropathic choir Elipson-Delta-Niner sends *image representing CRC-error* three times in a row.

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    I think you're getting into the trap of taking the Imperium's capabilities and applying them on an out-of-universe level of efficiency again...the Imperium could develop a standardized image-code that translates to alphabetic codes, but they don't do it that way. Prophetic visual imagery works where actual coded messages don't, so why force one to behave like the other?

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    I think you're getting into the trap of taking the Imperium's capabilities and applying them on an out-of-universe level of efficiency again...the Imperium could develop a standardized image-code that translates to alphabetic codes, but they don't do it that way. Prophetic visual imagery works where actual coded messages don't, so why force one to behave like the other?
    Agreed. Getting the most message into the fewest number of images possible is vitally important because sending and receiving messages is stressful and dangerous. Astropaths are doing psyker stuff, anyone that gives them less psyker stuff to do, is highly encouraged! And there's also the fact that the message you send isn't always what is received (at least in the same method) -- this is going through the Warp. The Warp changes things, you know? Also, there is the fact that The Warp works best in sending messages via 'prophetic vision' sort of things in general...

    What I am trying to say is, sometimes you can brute force a way of sending actual letters and words, but not always...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-22 at 01:12 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Agreed. Getting the most message into the fewest number of images possible is vitally important because sending and receiving messages is stressful and dangerous. Astropaths are doing psyker stuff, anyone that gives them less psyker stuff to do, is highly encouraged! And there's also the fact that the message you send isn't always what is received (at least in the same method) -- this is going through the Warp. The Warp changes things, you know? Also, there is the fact that The Warp works best in sending messages via 'prophetic vision' sort of things in general...

    What I am trying to say is, sometimes you can brute force a way of sending actual letters and words, but not always...
    Right I remember in an Inquisitor book one of the Inquisitors was constantly picking up new Astropaths because he was sending so many messages and burning through them so fast.
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    Yea, sending messages via astropath is mentally, physically, and psychically draining. Adding error checking or sending a message in triplicate?? Eek... only for the REALLY important ones...

    Also, if they push themselves, then there's a bigger chance of a daemon coming through or people's heads popping...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-22 at 09:28 PM.

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    If astropathic choirs cannot send condensed information then how do they do things like coordinate galaxy-wide information/commands? Symbolic images, no matter how significant, cannot transmit information accurately and its not a complete language. Accuracy and completeness are both required to use them for command and control.

    It also means that astropathic choirs become a very insecure form of communication since you have to transmit in the clear instead of in code.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    If astropathic choirs cannot send condensed information then how do they do things like coordinate galaxy-wide information/commands? Symbolic images, no matter how significant, cannot transmit information accurately and its not a complete language. Accuracy and completeness are both required to use them for command and control.

    It also means that astropathic choirs become a very insecure form of communication since you have to transmit in the clear instead of in code.
    Except no one can intercept the transmissions except for other astropaths. They're not screaming into psychic radios for any and all to hear -an Eldar Farseer standing in the room next door to a transmitting Astropath won't even know a message is going out, let along what it contains. Basically, you have to be an Astropath to 'hear' an Astropath, as part of the soul-sealing that creates them.

    As for the symbols - it's not a pictographic language, it's omen and imagery...you can draw more from prophetic images when they're transmitted psychically and you're also psychic, the exact methods aren't really laid out. Either way, it's something the Imperium manages, however nonsensical it would 'logically' be, because Warp and Psykers.
    Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-11-22 at 10:22 PM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    This is one of the crosses you have to bear for a crossover like this. The Culture is relatively hard Sci-Fi series with a single author who worked very hard to make things internally consistent. Warhammer 40k is Space Opera/Fantasy with dozens if not hundreds writers working on the fluff that was ultimately secondary to playing the wargame itself. If you give the logistics of the setting anything resembling a hard look it will completely fall apart into total nonsense.

  30. - Top - End - #810
    Firbolg in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    I would say, if you want to get it to work...

    Come up with some plausible situation where they can transmit actual words, and some situation where they HAVE to use prophetic imagery.

    Make the transmitting words and messages something that only happens after the Imperium have really, really consolidated an area heavily, and have a reserve of astropath choirs.

    Make the imagery sort of thing, something that happens for worlds that aren't really consolidated that well, or when there are few astropath choirs and not many relays, and they are spread out more, or when one astropath sends a message without a choir, or something like that.

    And Astropaths are able to interpret these images accurately. That's their job! They are very, very competent at that... it's a language that isn't in words, it's a language that is in image and metaphor.. barely a language at all, and more just a mind to mind communication... you know... telepathy. Just think of it that, due to a combination of aptitude, training, connection to the thought-space of the warp, experience, and pattern recognition, and the warp partially transmitting intent/emotions (even if the images change), these people are able to make sense of the messages coming from the warp.



    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    If astropathic choirs cannot send condensed information then how do they do things like coordinate galaxy-wide information/commands? .... Accuracy and completeness are both required to use them for command and control.
    Why are you assuming that the Imperium has anything even resembling galaxy-wide coordination or a functioning modern economy and command and control structure or or anything at all like that?

    http://forum.rpg.net/showthread.php?...5#post14580215

    Might wanna read that... remember, the Imperium is, in a very profound way, Feudal. IE, oriented to local control, where small groups have particular obligations that go upwards (tax, materiel, soldiers, tithes, food, etc.), and there isn't really much coordination on a large scale... a Great Crusade is a really really big deal, and involves all the astropaths in an area pretty much shouting to spread the word of a Crusade, and the whole 'meet here where the crusade gathers' sort of thing (which can definitely get through), and then the thing takes off to go kick ass via massive scale of whatever they happened to put together. It mostly holds together via, well. Inertia.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-23 at 01:42 AM.

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