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2012-11-23, 03:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
They become insecure because the astropaths have to understand your message to send it. The Astropaths become a point of weakness and subject to being a spy, man-in-the-middle attacks (performed by a rogue astropath or even the guy who makes the printer work) and various other shenanigans (including things like bugging the choir itself so when they read your instructions, the spies get it too)
Sure, there's security for that. But there's security and then there's Security. The first type stops casually interested people, rogue elements and perhaps even governments. The second type is for when you can't trust anyone but yourself and maybe a few close friends.
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But ok, I have been assuming that the IoM is actually... you know, competent at doing things. But its looking more and more like the IoM isn't actually going to be one monolithic entity, but really more like a heirarchy of factions each with sub-factions, each with mini-star kingdoms and so on downwards.
I wasn't quite sure what to believe when I read the entry for Hive World on the Lexicanum. But if that page is a model for how the IoM works, you could literally just break away a few systems and it might be months before anyone in a major seat of power even notices. More if you choose a Feral or Feudal world.
SpoilerInterestingly, based on the highest numbers given for Hive worlds, half a trillion people would require massive amounts of food and water, which is noted to be basically all imported. Assuming each person requires half a kilogram of food and half a kilo of water a day (pretty low actually but conditions were described to be slum-like), that's half a trillion kilograms of imported material every single day. A quarter if the water is recycled.
Where does all that mass go? You could literally build entire islands out of food. Or excrement.
Hell, even the amount of carbon dioxide exhaled (the mass for which comes from offworld) by the population would rival the entire of RL earth's CO2 pollution! Which we are meeting global warming problems with already!
And what of their manufacturing pollution?! A 500 trillion population hive world would need active terraforming to avoid destabilizing the atmospheric composition!
For goodness sakes, the amount of productivity gain from having a few more hands probably less than the problems with crime, living requirements and environmental impact. The IoM could take a lance strike to a Hive world and it'll probably run better afterwards!
With the Imperium's inclination to intrusive population policy, why not institute compulsory birth control?
How is it even imported? Assuming a freighter hauls about a million tons, that's 250 frieghters... a day. With a round trip time of say twenty days, that's ten thousand freighters just to satisfy the food import requirements of a hive world. Do they even have ten thousand frieghters?
Ok, I shall now stop talking about logistics. Feel free not to reply.Stories:
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2012-11-23, 06:26 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I wonder how I am going to use all of this mess though. The Culture operates on the level of the society, which in 40k has amazingly little description. And quite a few holes.
By description, I don't mean things like who worships what or what the emperor did at year 30XX or various bits of rather worthless fluff. There is frustratingly little detail on how the Imperium works, how it applies laws, how it does internal communication. (or for that matter, any other race, except the Tyranids and Orks because they don't have anything)
Someone ought to make a WH40K 4x game.Stories:
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2012-11-23, 06:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
As a note, that is entirely how a Hive world actually is.
They eat recycled waste repurposed to have actual nutrients and nothing more, drink recycled water from waste, and the air they breathe is so toxic that even with 40k grade medical advancements the average worker only lives to 35-40, and even then they spend their lives wearing filtration masks.
The world is barren and dead, the seas are boiled for the sake of establishing the industrial base and put into recycling filters that damn them to eternal re-usage.
Hell, in 40k the advertisement of "Real animal proteins" is enough for food to be considered high class on ANY world, Grox steaks are considered a luxury only planetary governors, and Inquisitors have access to.
40k is not a nice place, for anyone.
Laws are enforced by Adeptus Arbites who use chemical sprayers to encase people in concrete non lethally for lesser crimes, whereas on Hiveworlds like Necromunda (A book I would suggest you read to get access to the dirtiest and worst of Hive world life.), the Adeptus Arbites shoot criminals on sight, and Chaos is vigorously hunted at all turns, though it often has holds on most, if not all, hiveworlds even if in small amounts.
As for a 40k 4x game, yes, I would love that.. so.. so much.Last edited by Fan; 2012-11-23 at 06:36 AM.
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2012-11-23, 07:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Hmm, that does explain why a mere handful of ships is considered a 'battlefleet'. (any space 4x game would scoff at a 'fleet' of a mere 20 ships)
They need to make lots of freighters. And then their production base isn't good at all and coordination is bad. Shortage of vital parts or materials holds up construction, as well as corruption, crime and just plain inefficiency.
And then the frieghter captains are formed by random current crew of a freighter who have earned enough to collectively make a deposit for a loan to buy a new freighter and strike out on their own. So there aren't shipping corporations per se, just a large number of freighter collectives, maybe headed by a Rogue Trader or noble (who hands down shipping contracts to trusted captains who then sub-contract out to other less well known freighter collectives who then divide it amongst themselves; feudal style and incredibly inefficient).
Which brings me to an idea that the Rogue Trader really ought to buy frieghters. Me thinks that would be rather easier to get and would move much much more mass than a converted Lunar or other warship. With the hyperspace drive, he doesn't need to worry about them being ambushed, and besides, he does have two converted warships now.Stories:
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2012-11-23, 07:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Hell, in 40k the advertisement of "Real animal proteins" is enough for food to be considered high class on ANY world, Grox steaks are considered a luxury only planetary governors, and Inquisitors have access to.
And certainly "Real animal proteins" is not going to carry much cachet on an agriworld or a civilized world, where food is not a scarce resource.
There really are massive food convoys going around the Imperium all the time. The great Charter Fleets make up the majority of the void ships of the Imperium, with thousands of vessels going along well mapped routes that have been in use for millenia, carrying all the wealth of the Imperium from planet to planet. There are trillions of humans in 40k who will be born, live and die entirely within the confines of these great fleets, without ever touching down on a planet.
The most common cheapest food available is a thing called "Corpse Starch", which is recyced from dead flesh, and only eaten by the desperately needy . Vat grown food will priovide the majority of sustenance for those on a Hive, with imports also taking up a substantial chunk.
The main instruments of governmental cohesion for the Imperium are the Administratum, who will be tasked with extracting the Imperial Tithe from every planet, and the Adeptus Arbites, who will have a physical presence on every planet and are in charge of enforcing loyalty. Planetary Governors will be chosen with the consent of those two factions for their abilities to enforce loyalty and deliver tithes. Beyond that, they have almost free reign. The major instruments of social cohesion are the Ecclesiarchy and interstellar trade routes.Last edited by Selrahc; 2012-11-23 at 07:51 AM.
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2012-11-23, 07:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
And what do they do with the Tithe? They can't be shipping it all to Earth right? That would insanity levels of inefficiency.
It was said the Tithe takes the form of material goods but that's also problematic. Where does it go? You take 20% of an agriworld's output and do what with it? Sell it? May as well tithe in credits.Stories:
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2012-11-23, 07:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
And what do they do with the Tithe? They can't be shipping it all to Earth right? That would insanity levels of inefficiency.
So, for example, tools from a civilized world go to an agriworld, then food from an agriworld goes to a hive world, then soldiers from a hive world die fighting Tyranids.Avatar by Simius
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2012-11-23, 08:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
It was a pretty specific point in Ciaphas Cain, and The Inquistion War novels to mention how much of a luxury it was, and when Cain touched down on one of the Hive Worlds there were advert drones buzzing about advertising the higher quality of food with real animal protein, and even Cain found it a doubtful proposition given the rarity of such stock on a hive world.
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2012-11-23, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
But.. that's basically exactly what I'm saying? That you're talking about Hive Worlds rather than all worlds. Further, you're talking about a Hive World in the middle of a war, where food is particularly scarce.
I definitely don't remember anybody saying that the only person who could ever get real meat is a planetary governor. Hive worlds definitely import a hell of a lot of real food to supplement their stocks.Last edited by Selrahc; 2012-11-23 at 08:10 AM.
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2012-11-23, 08:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Agri worlds will most definitely have an excess of food, that being the sole purpose for which the planet was shaped to provide.
As for the real meat being a rarity afforded to only the higher ups, I'm pretty confident that even IG field rations don't contain any real meat, in the "Gaunt's Ghost's" novel, Gaunt notes that when he gives his rations to his page boy that the quality level is such a gap that it's likely the first "Real" food the boy's had in a long time, implying at least that most of what is given to the majority of people is synth diet.
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2012-11-23, 09:02 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I think I remember the Cain books mentioning that the Imperial Guard has some mostly tasteless standard rations that they refer to as "corpse starch."
Not sure if that's relevant.
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2012-11-23, 10:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Also, reading the "Fallen Angels" novel it does remind me that the Primarch of the First Legion is still alive. The Lion is very much alive in a secret chamber on "The Rock", mayhaps the Culture finds him, and through an SC agent uses him as an envoy of the good the culture can bring?
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2012-11-23, 10:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I see where you're coming from, Fan, but that sounds like it's more of a problem with Imperial Guard rations than a blanket statement regarding all food in the entire Imperium.
After all, the whole point is that the Imperium ISN'T a monolithic entity. It has a couple of universal institutions and some pretty strict rules, but for a large part does leave the individual worlds and mini-empires under it's rule to their own business. That side of the Imperium isn't often explored, admittedly, but that's more a facet of the primary window on the setting being the tabletop war games than anything.
I mean, look at how different the culture and aesthetics of certain Imperial Guard regiments are, even. That's a pretty useful indicator, even if it's likely to be the low-water-mark, due to them all belonging to the same institution which will impose it's own homogenising rules to a degree.
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2012-11-23, 01:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by jseah
Originally Posted by SelrahcLast edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-23 at 01:46 PM.
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2012-11-23, 08:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Well again, from everything I've seen anything that isn't an Agri World where it is directly, and presently, available. Real food is.. difficult to obtain. I'll give you that the IG rank and file have it worse than most due to the nature of the Imperium, but you can't really place Joe Schmoe too high up the ladder.
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2012-11-23, 10:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Some Librarians are also Astrotelepaths. I don't know if non-Astartes psykers are ever also capable of astro-scale telepathy...
Also, there are some psykers that can navigate in the warp. This requires a Psyker who also does some Sorcery and to consort with Daemons for this faculty, however.
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2012-11-23, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Astropaths are not just Psykers who can communicate over interstellar distances; they are members of the Adeptus Astra Telepathica who have been found, trained, sent to Holy Terra and Soul-Bound to the God Emperor himself and then sent out again to the edges of the Imperium.
Similarly, Navigators are not just Psykers who can ply the Warp and guide ships through, they are a special breed of Psyker mutants whose Third Eyes allow them to scan the Warp for the fading signal of the Astronomicon and drive safe courses by it's divine light.
It's like the difference between otters using rocks to break open clams and humans making rockets to go to the moon; they exist on the same continuum of ability, but the scale and nature of what they can achieve is worlds apart (I love space puns).
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2012-11-23, 10:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
The thing is, Librarians are specifically mentioned as being capable of astro-telepathy, though. I think that might be shorter range than a full-capability Astropath, maybe...
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2012-11-24, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
part 7.5 Rogue Trader - finale
SpoilerThe Rogue Trader has completed the asteroid mining platform in a surprisingly short amount of time. Surprising to everyone involved, although for different reasons. We are surprised because we did not expect him to employ the full productive power of the nanobots so quickly, and he (and his crew) were surprised at the large display of the power of exponentially increasing production power.
Of course, anyone who is familiar with even the theoretical properties of Von Neumann replicators would not be overly surprised at a hundred kilograms of nanobots building an asteroid mining platform a million times their own weight (~100 ktons) in roughly two days. And despite the already demonstrated production power in building assorted equipment, this demonstration in large scale seemed to enlighten them to the sheer amount of power the nanobots wield.
Which is good, since we certainly wish that he exploit them against Chaos. And that he (and the crew in the know) now understand exactly why it would be deadly to the Imperium if they leaked the technology to Chaos. We note that he is still loyal to the Imperium's government and we expect that this alignment of interests should spur additional safeguards on the nanobots that has not been present so far.
Shortly after that, his astropath picked up a message for him that meant roughly "ready" followed by a location in interstellar space. We followed his Dauntless to the nearby location, where we (and the Rogue Trader) detected a small canister containing a digital message.
Our IoM starship records were referenced but no detection of this message canister was registered, nevertheless, this is not surprising as our coverage of IoM ships is still patchy.
The message appears to be a cryptographically secure message coded with a one time pad. The Rogue Trader appeared to be able to read it from memory. Some amount of anger and fear was registered in his emotional state but we were unable to decipher the message from shallow scans which was all that we could risk doing when his psyker was around to detect deeper intrusions into anyone's mindstate.
Given the clarified astropathic capabilities, I am retconning the messages the rogue trader sent and received. There is no way he could receive the messages without someone else (namely astropaths) from knowing the contents so the sender (his ordo xenos contact) would never have sent it. So here's a different way, that will take much longer round trip time, so he only receives the message now.
And when he sends the reply, the Culture will be able to follow it to the recepient.
RE buying freighters:
The idea here is not that he is using the freighters to ply trade routes but that he can use their massively larger cargo space to carry materials for the nanobots' construction. A few freighters and he could quite easily haul enough material to duplicate a freighter or other ship.
Also, will someone name him?
Come on, you know you like him and you also know that named characters are far far less likely to die. >.>
And now that he knows how dangerous the nanobots are if they fall into Chaos hands (just one canister ending up in Chaos would spell a major disaster for the IoM), what sort of precautions is he likely to take?Stories:
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2012-11-24, 12:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Well, if I were him, I would go for Carrack-class armed freighters rather than Vagabond-class Freighters. Carrack-class is a new class of ship, intended to be a freighter with enough armor and weaponry to defend itself against light raiders. It sits in some of the same conceptual space of the huge 'Star Galleons' of yore, which are basically ideal ships for a Rogue Trader in general. It is, of course, significantly smaller than those Star Galleons, where the capability to make those has been lost. Back to the Carrack, compared to the Vagabond, it has roughly the same cargo space, slightly more durability, more weapons capability, at the cost of being marginally more costly and having slightly less component space. Ideally, he'd want something a little bit more speedy and maneuverable though... but there aren't stats for that from the Rogue Trader RPG!
You would have to homebrew such a ship... Here's a modified quote I made about homebrewing a ship to sit in that conceptual space, for another forum:
"The Carrack, the Orion, and the Exchequer. These are great merchant ships. They all have a 25-ship point cost (well, deriving the stats of the Exchequer, it's halfway between the other two, and should probably be 25-points…), compared to the Vagabond's 20, all have a full cargo hold, and are thus merchant ships. Even if you have to homebrew a 'less awesome than the customized Exchequer, of which there are only supposed to be, like, 2' ship to sit between the Carrack and Orion, it is still a great ship for a Merchant... and it is something that could supposedly exist, somewhere. It might even be for sale! Such a ship would be significantly better in general than a Vagabond... albeit more pricey. Cause, ew. Vagabond! If there was ever a ship that you don't want to get anywhere near a fight, it's a Vagabond!
(Homebrew) Swiftwind Merchant Trader
Type: Transport
Dimensions: 2.5km long, .5 km abeam approx.
Crew: 21,000 crew approx.
Speed: 6, Manoeuvrability: +15, Detection: +10
Armour: 1, Hull Integrity: 38
Turret Rating: 1, Component Space: 38
Weapon Capacity: Dorsal 1, Keel 1
Cargo Hauler (1)
Uhhh... I'm bad with names. Can someone else do this?
Weelll... I don't know, but it would probably be quite a destructive failsafe, and involve promethium and melta canisters, and other such bomb things. And maybe a bunch of microwave 'flamers', to boot.
As far as preventing people from getting ahold of them... that's a bit tougher. He's going to need some kind of scanner that can scan for them, of course. And some major anti-contraband tech and procedure, and only having the nanobots in particular areas, and a lot of social control. Also maybe spreading some rumors that they are poison if handled incorrectly.Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-24 at 06:29 PM.
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2012-11-24, 12:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-24, 12:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-24 at 12:13 PM.
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2012-11-24, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I did, via a well timed joke, introduce the daring, piratical scoundrel and more than a little deranged Rogue Trader Spack Jarrow* to our local rogue-trader campaign. (The group were amused enough that he's an actual reccurring NPC now).
But then, I'm thinking that the Rogue Trader's actions so far haven't been very appropriate for the illustrious Captain Spack*.
*Captain Spack Jarrow is an entirely original character. Resemblance to any persons, living dead or fictional are entirely coincidental. Honest, guv.
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2012-11-24, 05:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Some potential Rogue Trader specs-
I'd rather we not end up with a character with an overt pop culture reference name in the middle of the fic.
SpoilerZecrom "Phoenix" Lefthome - Orphan from the Schola Progenium, parents killed in the attacks of the Arch-Arsonist. Major grudge against Orks as a result.
Listrom Hardbottom- Minor noble family from a house with an extensive criminal past. Severed ties with the families operations upon buying his commission in the Navy but has since become involved peripherally as a Rogue Trader.
Jarrow of the Fifth Spire- Originated on a Shrine World, with five hive spires each housing a sacred relic of the Imperium. To off-worlders no last name is given, just the name of the spire they originate from. History of the housed artifact tatooed across their back. This has left him with a complicated relation with the Ecclesiarchy.
Radabout Finst- Second son of a Charter Captain. Joined the navy to escape his family traditions, and has somewhat of a disdain both for the ground-folk and for those willing to be bound too tightly in organizations.
Seb Snakewick- Son of the governor of a planet recently founded, and since wiped out. Has a soft spot for struggling colonists. Otherwise a bit of a bastard.
Mookerji Skit- Worked up from a naval rating to officer rank after exemplary service in the face of the enemy. During a boarding action he earned a field commission as he took control of survivors and organized resistance and a successful retaking of the ship. Horrifically scarred, with extensive bionics.
Johan "Raincloud" Sonderza- "As welcome as a dark cloud". Reliable, loyal and quite brilliant in his way. But endlessly pessimistic and cynical. Seconded to an Explorator Fleet for much of his career and therefore far too familiar with AdMech doctrine.
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2012-11-24, 08:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I already have his background, so I just need a name. Still, I can incorporate some of them.
Might as well do it by consensus. You have until tonight's post to decide a name. =D
I like Mookerji Skit though, his background is compatible as a sort of 'how I joined the navy' part of his background where he earns the navy's backing through a series of victories and then the xenos fall in makes the eccelesiarchy hate him and he gets RT'ed.
Maybe I'll integrate that as an extension of his background.Stories:
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2012-11-25, 12:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-25, 04:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-25, 07:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Stories:
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2012-11-25, 11:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
part 7.5 orks
SpoilerWeek 1
Following the destruction of all active Necrons, Large Sticks Speak Softly has decided to take the stance that are not a HS. This contradicts the recommendation by the SC member who fought the warboss that they ARE a HS.
Since the sole leadership of the Orks in this large has already been killed, and the warband is dissolving into myriad power struggles, Large Sticks Speak Softly will attempt to impose some measure of order through the use of force, which is so far the only form of meaningful communication with the Orks.
Two days later
The SC team member has been recognized as the de facto leader of the Orks after killing a number of them, or at least recognized as someone who has to be obeyed. Despite the deaths of multiple sentients we have become responsible for, Large Sticks Speak Softly is of the opinion that this is a worthwhile endeavour to eventually reform the orks.
For now, we will be attempting to implement some measure of order onto the ork society and establishing a rule of law. The dictatorial society model we are adopting will act as a transitory stage towards a more peaceful government.
So, an ork warband suddenly gets an SC member backed up with a load of guns, who has killed all challengers without a sweat, and kills anyone who dares to talk back to him.
He sets himself up as 'dictator' and starts proclaiming laws and the contact fire teams serving as his 'internal security'.
Would it be possible to recruit orks to police themselves? Or would that be considered unorky?
part 7.5 Rogue Trader, addenum
SpoilerSeb Snakewick has picked up a number of items at the pirate yard that may be of interest. A warp scanner that can detect psychic phenomena is of great interest and we are looking to duplicate and test it. As well as the prediction algorithm and purpose-built hardware that can pilot a warpdrive.
The physical construction scans of these have been completed to subatomic precision and is attached for priority analysis. This may help detect initial Chaos contaminations quicker.
I'm going to name him Seb Snakewick, and steal Mook's backstory.Stories:
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2012-11-25, 11:16 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
FYI... normally, it's only safe to pilot a warp drive (assuming you aren't using a navigator) for 5 lightyears, the (really really illegal to have) cogitator doubles that to 10 lightyears. This can sort of be improved if you are using those 'similar to tau style but slightly different' drives, but those are wayyyy slower, and even then you only want to use THOSE in calm areas. You still don't want to make more than that due to the fact that warp conditions actively change, and you need someone to be able to see the changes! Is he getting the scanner that lets people see psychic stuff in general, or the one that lets people see all the way into the warp, but drives them insane?
Also... once they start doing this...
Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-25 at 11:20 AM.