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  1. - Top - End - #901
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Oracle_Hunter View Post
    Double hilarity because the Kulture SCs would be (vainly) trying to fit in, claiming that they were 'umies and pounding anyone who disagreed with them into mush.

    ...how is this not canon yet?
    The central joke, from the point of view of the orks perhaps, is that it'd totally work and is how most such disguises and conspiracy theories actually end up working in practice. The Orks just cut the manouvering and poncing around out of it and go straight to the "shut it or I'll krump ya" stage, saving time and effort.

    "Wot you mean I don' look like an 'umie? I's just big boned. Part Ogrin, or summat. Now shut it or I'll cave yer ed in!"
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  2. - Top - End - #902
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    See, I don't see that happening, guys... You would totally need to get a denser amount of orks than have ever been in one place at one time to even THINK of getting something like that. They would have to collect WAAGHs from all of the ork 'Empires', and take alll those warbosses and pirates and tribes and clans, and put them in one place. And I don't think we can really extrapolate how much the Ork psychic field would impact the Culture ships and people, if orkish density gets artificially higher than it has been... something will be different, for sure, but exactly what?? And exactly which laws of physics can be usurped, and how much, and how often? I think we are maybe safer just following the more normal patterns...

    Yes, I know, you are just joking (I hope, oh god, I hope)...

  3. - Top - End - #903
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    The Orks have a sufficient, racial-memory level grasp of technology that makes it possible for them to design inter-dimensional transporters of greater effectiveness than the Eldar. Seriously, the Eldar can't build new sections of the web way, they only use what already exists - the Orks have shown themselves capable of deploying strike teams via teleporter from across a star system with reasonable accuracy.

    More than that, they have a way of reverse engineering the technology of their enemies and adopting it on a species-wide scale. There was a snippet somewhere (I think in one of the Imperial Armour books) that had an Ork Mekboy see an Imperial Titan for the first time. Inspired by it, he went and built the first Stompas and Gargants... and within a worryingly short space of time, Orks all over the galaxy were building them as well. It's how they get a great deal of their technology, really - taking the ideas from other races, or even the actual tech, and Orkifying them. Which leads to exactly the sort of infinite adaptability you'd want in a specialized warrior race.

    In other words, once the Orks have seen enough of the Culture's tech to work out what exactly it's doing, they can have a decent chance of reproducing it. And sure, it'll be inferior quality at best, and quite likely to blow up in up their own faces, but it will be possible. More than that, it will be mass produced.

    Really, the Culture don't understand just how lucky they are that they've so far managed to avoid any Ork being exposed to their technology long enough to get a better idea of how it works beyond 'makes you extra stompy'
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Maugan Ra View Post
    The Orks have a sufficient, racial-memory level grasp of technology that makes it possible for them to design inter-dimensional transporters of greater effectiveness than the Eldar. Seriously, the Eldar can't build new sections of the web way, they only use what already exists - the Orks have shown themselves capable of deploying strike teams via teleporter from across a star system with reasonable accuracy.
    Wait what?! CITATION NEEDED!

  5. - Top - End - #905
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    The Third War for Armaggedon. Gahzgkull's Orks test their teleporter technology on... I think it's Piscina. Then they head to Armaggedon, and prove themselves capable of launching attacks on the surface from a base out in the halo regions of the system. I seem to recall them using this to take out some of the anti-orbital weapons their fleet might otherwise have to worry about.

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  6. - Top - End - #906
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    thus the 'relatively'. Non lethal in this case would be big spiky clubs that make shooting noises when you hit things with them. Then watch the Culture have a mental meltdown when the clubs somehow shoot someone.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    And a bright flash. And an electric shock.
    At the risk of cross-franchise contamination, have you guys really just come up with a viable excuse for the orks to have lightsabres?

    Quote Originally Posted by Maugan Ra View Post
    The Third War for Armaggedon. Gahzgkull's Orks test their teleporter technology on... I think it's Piscina. Then they head to Armaggedon, and prove themselves capable of launching attacks on the surface from a base out in the halo regions of the system. I seem to recall them using this to take out some of the anti-orbital weapons their fleet might otherwise have to worry about.
    Orkish accuracy being what it is, I'd be surprised if more than 1 in 100 of their strike teams ended up in the right place (or in one piece).
    However if you throw enough orks through a teleporter, you're still going to end up with sufficient survivors to cause problems on the other side.
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-11-28 at 07:27 AM.

  7. - Top - End - #907
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Maugan Ra View Post
    The Third War for Armaggedon. Gahzgkull's Orks test their teleporter technology on... I think it's Piscina. Then they head to Armaggedon, and prove themselves capable of launching attacks on the surface from a base out in the halo regions of the system. I seem to recall them using this to take out some of the anti-orbital weapons their fleet might otherwise have to worry about.

    Never underestimate the capacity of a green skin to do something theoretically impossible.
    So from Piscina (one system) to Armageddon (another), or from one part of Armageddon to another? Whichever it is kinda matters...

  8. - Top - End - #908
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    So from Piscina (one system) to Armageddon (another), or from one part of Armageddon to another? Whichever it is kinda matters...
    One part of the Armageddon system to another.
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  9. - Top - End - #909
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    One part of the Armageddon system to another.
    Oh. That's not too bad. Lots of races can do interplanetary teleports. Necrons... Eldar seem to. Add another to the list!

  10. - Top - End - #910
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Oh. That's not too bad. Lots of races can do interplanetary teleports. Necrons... Eldar seem to. Add another to the list!
    The two highest-tech factions in the setting (Tau are getting there, but still a close third). That's still a very elite group for the Orks to hang out with.

  11. - Top - End - #911
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    You know Dark Eldar don't seem to have any difficulties in creating new webway portals. And I haven't heard of the Eldar having any problems creating new portals, but they keep having to close them instead.
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  12. - Top - End - #912
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    I'm pretty sure the issue is that parts of the webway are severed from eachother, and that the Eldar cannot make more webway. There also might be issues in making the larger webway portals, like those for starships.
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  13. - Top - End - #913
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    (Tau are getting there, but still a close third)
    Tau aren't third. They've just adopted a quality over quantity ethos.
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  14. - Top - End - #914
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Tau can't teleport at all, right? And none of their vassal races can either?
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-28 at 06:50 PM.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    Tau aren't third. They've just adopted a quality over quantity ethos.
    Tau tech is nice quality, but it's like sticks and stone wheels in comparison with Crontech, and I'd consider Eldar technology still of higher quality. Tau just haven't been around long enough to work out the really good stuff.

  16. - Top - End - #916
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Tau tech is nice quality, but it's like sticks and stone wheels in comparison with Crontech, and I'd consider Eldar technology still of higher quality. Tau just haven't been around long enough to work out the really good stuff.
    I'm really not entirely sure about this. If 'cron tech is so much better, than why are the Tau pretty good against them? It seems to me that everyone has tech that is 'good enough'. Human tanks are 'good enough'. Tau guns are 'good enough'... things that seem to be much higher tech aren't providing significantly more advantage. Which is always something that I considered weird about the setting...

    Anyway, the Imperium has some super-science energy guns. And so do Tau. And so do Eldar. And so do Necrons. And so do Orks... etc.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-28 at 07:05 PM.

  17. - Top - End - #917
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    I'm really not entirely sure about this. If 'cron tech is so much better, than why are the Tau pretty good against them? It seems to me that everyone has tech that is 'good enough'. Human tanks are 'good enough'. Tau guns are 'good enough'... things that seem to be much higher tech aren't providing significantly more advantage. Which is always something that I considered weird about the setting...

    Anyway, the Imperium has some super-science energy guns. And so do Tau. And so do Eldar. And so do Necrons. And so do Orks... etc.
    The Necrons have lost a lot in their sleep, and their biotransference apparently killed their creativity/ability to innovate for most if not all of them, but they've still mastered fields of science that the other races of the galaxy barely even know exist, if they know at all. More advanced isn't always guaranteed to be the same as applicable on the battlefield, which is the only thing that really matters for head-to-head fights. As for why supertech isn't a definitive advantage, that's just a side effect of Wargame Induced Balance leaking over into the fluff side of things.

  18. - Top - End - #918
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    Isn't it explicit that the Tau have also been forced to forgo on research in order to perfect the current military tools they have?
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  19. - Top - End - #919
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    I'm pretty sure the issue is that parts of the webway are severed from eachother, and that the Eldar cannot make more webway. There also might be issues in making the larger webway portals, like those for starships.
    Could be. I don't think canon actually takes a stand either way so it comes down to personal preference. I like to think building new webway gates is mostly unnecessary and way to resource extensive when they do need to build a new one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    I'm really not entirely sure about this. If 'cron tech is so much better, than why are the Tau pretty good against them? It seems to me that everyone has tech that is 'good enough'. Human tanks are 'good enough'. Tau guns are 'good enough'... things that seem to be much higher tech aren't providing significantly more advantage. Which is always something that I considered weird about the setting...

    Anyway, the Imperium has some super-science energy guns. And so do Tau. And so do Eldar. And so do Necrons. And so do Orks... etc.
    Ignoring the table top they really aren't. The Tau lack anything to really put down a Necron warrior permanently so a Lord can easily just order his mindless warriors to wear them down through attrition and eventually win. While things like Wraiths can phase through the ground and massacre them. Really I don't think the Tau have actually won a major engagement against the Necrons yet.

    The big thing about Tau tech is it is advancing at an insane rate with their focus on forward thinking and total lack of fear of tech backfiring on them. I mean in 6000 years they progressed more then the Imperium did in 40 000 years.


    Anyways Orks aren't an HS and it would be pretty easy to argue so as looking at them would reveal different tribal cultures and groups. Even traditions and superstitions. As well as important stuff like how they like to fight.
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  20. - Top - End - #920
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Studying Ork culture and especially their superstitions would probably also lead to the Culture discovering the existence of the Waaagh field and its effect on reality.

    Then they think about it for a bit, then paint their ships red

  21. - Top - End - #921
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Studying Ork culture and especially their superstitions would probably also lead to the Culture discovering the existence of the Waaagh field and its effect on reality.

    Then they think about it for a bit, then paint their ships red
    That wouldn't help the Culture unless Orks were driving their ships. Red Wunz Go Fasta and stuff like it are what Orks believe about their own vehicles/themselves, they don't automatically extend this belief to their enemies. Otherwise Ultramarines would be the champion Ork-killing Chapter.

  22. - Top - End - #922
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    Quote Originally Posted by Forrestfire View Post
    Studying Ork culture and especially their superstitions would probably also lead to the Culture discovering the existence of the Waaagh field and its effect on reality.

    Then they think about it for a bit, then paint their ships red
    SHINY BLUE. They need luck more than speed. And they would have to be near Orks and have Orks see the ship and then observably boast to lots of Orks that it is da luckiest ship evva, for it to work...

    And convince the Orks that they have a bunch of Orks on board, so it is a looted ork ship. And thus should benefit from the color power thing. Even though, since it isn't really a looted ship, it isn't.

    They could also use that effect to test the range and other capabilities of the waagh field via experimentation. Ie, when is it line of sight, how far away from Orks something works a particular way, how orky it has to look and act and seem for Orks to really believe it is theirs, and so the field applies, what the density of Orks does to the field, how leadership/ a warboss changes the field, etc. etc.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-28 at 11:41 PM.

  23. - Top - End - #923
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    SHINY BLUE. They need luck more than speed. And they would have to be near Orks and have Orks see the ship and then observably boast to lots of Orks that it is da luckiest ship evva, for it to work...

    And convince the Orks that they have a bunch of Orks on board, so it is a looted ork ship. And thus should benefit from Tue color power thing. Even though, since it isn't really a looted ship, it isn't.
    But think about how fast their FTL speeds would be!

    They're already mind-bogglingly fast, who knows what would happen.

  24. - Top - End - #924
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    What happens if you give a group of Orks the ability to see more colors... like more types of eye color sensors (12 v 3), infrared, ultraviolet, etc.etc. .... and the paint to match...

  25. - Top - End - #925
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    What happens if you give a group of Orks the ability to see more colors... like more types of eye color sensors (12 v 3), infrared, ultraviolet, etc.etc. .... and the paint to match...
    Probably nothing. They don't 'know' these new colors do anything, so they wouldn't be likely to use them.

  26. - Top - End - #926
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Probably nothing. They don't 'know' these new colors do anything, so they wouldn't be likely to use them.
    Until you started them competing to be the groups that get to figure out / decide / be known for being a part of what those colors do, and have it be something for them to compete about... that might get results...

    And since they have all this paint and other Orks don't, if they can figure out what all these weird colors do, they can take advance against other Orks, since they have an advantage. Competition and winning and making the other guy lose drive and motivate Orks quite well.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-29 at 12:01 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Glyphstone View Post
    Tau tech is nice quality, but it's like sticks and stone wheels in comparison with Crontech, and I'd consider Eldar technology still of higher quality. Tau just haven't been around long enough to work out the really good stuff.
    Tau tech is actually a little ways behind the Imperium in every respect except for Artificial Intelligence (which the Imperium doesn't do), counter-gravity and lightweight composite materials. What the Tau do that the other factions don't is apply their technology intelligently and universally. The Imperium have access to hover-cars and incredibly advanced power sources, but the majority of their civilian everything is about 20th century level or worse. They can make armour that just shrugs off anti-tank missiles, but the majority of their soldiers make due with a flak vest and a prayer. In comparison, the Tau apply their tech universally. Have safe plasma inducement? Every single soldier gets a streamlined plasma gun. Have counter-gravity engines? Every single vehicle down to the farm equipment hovers. Have easy, effective, cheap AI? Who needs to have people drive the farm equipment, and while we're at it let's stick it in our missile guidance.

    The Tau advantage isn't total tech level, because everyone else has access to tech far in advance of what the Tau can manage. Their advantage is that every technology they have quickly permeates their entire society, which means that their average tech level is far above the Imperium.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Isn't it explicit that the Tau have also been forced to forgo on research in order to perfect the current military tools they have?
    No, the Tau are still constantly researching and developing new things, to the point that experimental equipment is pretty much a constant all the way through their fluff. Their goal on Medusa V was to advance their warp drives. Their current codex has a whole bunch of explicitely experimental tech. Their 'military face' Shadowsun has a whole bunch of experimental gear, which she's basically a test bed for. They also tend to tweak their current gear (a war between the Tau and the Tyranids turned into a constant arms race to see who could adapt to the enemy's new toys faster), but the theme of advancing technology is one of the things that make the Tau unique.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    The Imperium does have a disadvantage in technology based purely on its own size, mind. Logistics, especially in a universe where FTL communication is less than guaranteed, has always been their primary limiting factor.

    The lasgun is an excellent general example of this. It is not the most powerful gun the Imperium can make, or the most accurate, or the most efficient, or even the smallest. What it is, however, is easy to mass produce, robust enough to stand up to a ridiculous degree of punishment, and capable of being recharged at a wide range of power sources. Hell, throwing the clips into a fire will do in a pinch. When you consider how many wars the Imperium has to fight at any one time, and how many soldiers it has to keep equipped, such virtues become worth infinitely more than the greater hitting power of a Pulse Rifle.

    Eventually, the Tau are going to expand beyond their relatively dense little cluster of star systems. And then they are going to run into all the problems that the Imperium faces, and be forced to adopt a sustainable baseline of tech that they can work their Civilisation off of. Heck, until they develop faster warp travel, they are physically incapable of forming a unified empire even a fraction of the size of the Imperium.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    However the Tau are very likely to actually figure out a way around the logistical problems that the Imperium faces due to a more flexible society and a willingness to advance technology.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    It's partially logistical, true. But, what also feeds into that is the AdMech, and the general loss of knowledge that allowed it to flourish. Yeah, there are many individual things in the Imperium that beat the Tau. The problem is that it's largely individual things which can't be reproduced, or if they can must be hand crafted. Artisan works are all well and good, but it's shown that they can barely supply the Adept Astares with such works.

    The Tau presumably will not have this problem, at least not until a Dark Age or something.
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