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  1. - Top - End - #961
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Fyi, warp-capable ships are huuuuge. so there would have to be a lot of excess mass and size in a ship with an IoM style warp drive. I'll get stats on their smallest warp capable ship in a bit.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Fyi, warp-capable ships are huuuuge. so there would have to be a lot of excess mass and size in a ship with an IoM style warp drive. I'll get stats on their smallest warp capable ship in a bit.
    Size isn't really anything new to the Culture. Their GSV's dwarf most vessels in the IoM fleet, with sizes starting from 50km(the proto-GSV's now considered far too small and stuffy, were this size) and ranging to upwards of 1000km. Most of that space is taken up by parks and living areas, along with providing lots of base matter for the ships to play with if they need to build something.

    Warships are generally amongst the tiniest vessels that the Culture fields. Size is mainly used for aesthetic or comfort reasons, so when you strip to bare bones the ships get very small indeed. Some GCU's are under 50m, and consist of little more than an engine, a Mind and an effector array.
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  3. - Top - End - #963
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Well, of the scanners, only the lesser scanners -- the ones that detect psykers -- would probably be 'safe'. The ones that let people see all the way into the warp would likely NOT be safe. Even the Eldar, when in the webway, don't point and look through advanced scanners at the walls of the webway, and the webway itself is a huuuuuge protective barrier between that area and the rest of the warp! Walking around wearing a scanner that lets one detect major psychic emanations, on an Eldar ship would be... an interesting experience. ;)

    Also, by this point, the Tau did have a limited amount of time to try and scan stable portals in the warp; one of their military campaigns was specifically to do this to try and fix their FTL tech, which they only had minor success with.

    Further, there are only highly specialized, inquisitorial ships that are down to 300 m long that are warp capable. In general, 'small' warp capable ships have dimensions like this (hull rating increases with total mass generally, so is another measure of size. These stats are taken from the RPG):

    1. L: 1.5km, W:.25km, mass: 5k[mass units], crew: 22k, hull rating: 32 units
    2. L: 1.5km, W:.3km, mass: 5.9k[mass units], crew: 21k, hull rating: 30 units
    3. L: 2km, W:.25km, mass: 4.5k[mass units], crew: 15k, hull rating: 30 units
    4. L: 1.3km, W:.4km, mass: 6.1k[mass units], crew: 16.5k, hull rating: 28 units
    5. L: .95km, W:.25km, mass: 4.9k[mass units], crew: 7.5k, hull rating: 25 units

    So minimum at 'common' imperial level tech is probably something like: .95km long, .25km wide, 4.5k mass units, crew 7.5k, hull rating, 25 units. Imperial voidships are longer than they are wide or tall because a warp hole their drives make, which they have to dive through, is only a certain diameter. Anything smaller than that simply doesn't work without lots of specialized tech (which is probably found in some of the Inquisitorial ships guarding the Eye of Terror, or other similar places, I believe).

    Also, there are specific types of warp drives which don't require a Navigator. These are mostly used on chartered ships with travel very, very, very well mapped and very stable warp routes -- one example of these drives is the 'Klenova Class M' drive. These also don't work with components that improve speed of travel, so they are relatively quite slow. These (presumably) enter the warp deeper than Tau drives, but less deep than normal human drives (or something. I don't know. Maybe approaching from above or below the warp? Does anyone have any more data on this? Or am I citing fanon??). Presumably, this was one of the ways that humans explored the warp before Navigators. Also, it was safer pre-Navigators because the Warp itself was calmer!

    Here's a thing on the Tau gravitic-wing:

    http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_...Tau_Fleets.pdf
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-04 at 02:03 PM.

  4. - Top - End - #964
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    I'm fairly sure Chartist vessels use the same sorts of engines as mainline Imperial ships. The primary difference is that Chartist ships generally don't have navigators. And without one, you're restricted to the very well known routes that are reasonably constant, and don't dare risk anything more variable. A Navigator can make course corrections if the Warp is threatening to shift you away from your intended destination, and can generally operate with just some decent guidelines as to their destination, rather than a fixed route.

    This, incidentally, is the reasoning behind the Navigator Houses. If you want to make a long journey, or one into less calm regions of space, you need a Navigator. Machines just can't handle the ridiculously convoluted moves needed to steer in the warp (or rather, they can't without being possessed by daemons), and that means the Navigators effectively have a monopoly on interstellar travel. The Emperor established multiple Houses with distinct bloodlines both as a means of ensuring quality (so one flaw couldn't take them all out) and as a means to keep the Navigators from basically owning the Imperium.

    Incidentally, I'd argue that widespread and reliable access to Navigator-like individuals is what allows a species in the 40k galaxy to count as a galactic power. The Imperium has it's Navigators, Chaos has it's sorcerers and/or daemon hosts, Orks have their Weirdboyz, and the Tyranids have a sort of gestalt mind that works in much the same overall way. The Eldar and Necrons essentially cheat by avoiding the Warp altogether. There are quite literally thousands of other species out there, but without Navigators, none of them are ever going to be able to content with the super-powers on any meaningful strategic level.

    The Culture, from what I've seen, also fall into the 'cheats' category. But they should be aware of the sheer anarchy that will follow if they let their technology become more widely available.
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  5. - Top - End - #965
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    You need a navigator...

    ...Or those glasses that drive you insane but let normal folk see into the warp...

    ...or one of those highly illegal psykers who has made some pacts with daemons and such so that they are aware of what is going on in the warp...

    ...or an Ork Weirdboy...

    ...or whatever the Tyranids have, which requires being a Tyranid...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-04 at 04:13 PM.

  6. - Top - End - #966
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Tyranids don't use the warp at all anymore. They use this weird gravity acceleration thing that has the side effect of causing massive earthquakes at wherever they're headed.
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  7. - Top - End - #967
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    They do?? Can you cite that, FE? I never heard of that!

  8. - Top - End - #968
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    It's in their latest codex. I think I kinda preferred them using the Warp... granted, this is mostly because I know enough astrophysics that the explanation given for how they use their canonical FTL just sends me into fits of nerdy rage.
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  9. - Top - End - #969
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Yea, several of the recent novels don't have earthquakes happen preceding a Tyranid invasion...

    Maybe they are shunting their mass elsewhere via something that happens to also involve a projected gravity field??

    Are we just going to ignore the weird ftl methods in the latest codexes, for not fitting? IE, the Necron and Tyranid stuff?
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-04 at 04:30 PM.

  10. - Top - End - #970
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    They're called Narvhals. It's a specific Tyranid space-organism that makes giant gravity-tunnel things.

    http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Narvhal#.UL5qxob5XB0

  11. - Top - End - #971
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    I'm fairly sure Chartist vessels use the same sorts of engines as mainline Imperial ships. The primary difference is that Chartist ships generally don't have navigators. And without one, you're restricted to the very well known routes that are reasonably constant, and don't dare risk anything more variable. A Navigator can make course corrections if the Warp is threatening to shift you away from your intended destination, and can generally operate with just some decent guidelines as to their destination, rather than a fixed route.
    The way I thought Chartist fleets worked was that they would have one navigator plotting the course for an entire fleet. I seem to recall this is how the Imperial Navy move fleet groups around, so it would make sense as a method for chartists too.

    Why are we thinking that Chartists don't use navigators? They're a vital, wealthy and huge organization. I'd assume plying their trade to Chartists is one of the more reliable sources of income for the Novis Nabilite.
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  12. - Top - End - #972
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Selrahc View Post
    Why are we thinking that Chartists don't use navigators? They're a vital, wealthy and huge organization. I'd assume plying their trade to Chartists is one of the more reliable sources of income for the Novis Nabilite.
    'Cause several sources say they don't... like the RPG for one, and I think maybe a few others.

  13. - Top - End - #973
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    RE warp scanner:
    I am referring to the glasses that colours warp effects in realspace. They don't let you look into the warp. Since the Culture would have run across them from nearly the start (but I was unaware of them until a recent post mentioned them), I had to come up with a reason to belatedly introduce them.

    I think this is a good way. The Culture was 'safety testing' them.

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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    So various designs of psy-trackers, aetheracopes, and psyocculums, but NOT prognosticators, then. Presumably they could make some minor changes to the first three, combining the disparate types, increasing sensitivity, etc., as long as they don't quite get to the point that it functions like a prognosticator...

    Maybe the Eldar might have some suggestions? Iunno... if they do, getting the suggestions out of them would be REALLY difficult...
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-05 at 02:06 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #975
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    part 8.5 Tau
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    Week 1
    GCU Peacemaker is pleased to report that the Tau have agreed to setup an embassy facility on a small moon in Bork'An's system. The moon orbiting a gas giant had been intended to be developed as a recreational resort eventually, our arrival seems to have sped up the plan.

    Bork'An has sent ships towards the nearby worlds and to Tau to inform them of our arrival. Meanwhile, we will negotiate with the resident Ethereal caste (who are their leadership caste). From the openness of their society and their good understanding of their own technology, both us and the Tau clearly have much to benefit from a trade in both technology and wider information.

    A preliminary agreement to build goodwill has been confirmed:
    1. Both the Culture and the Tau will announce their movements and ships entering each others' declared territory.
    2. Both the Culture and the Tau will not use spies on each other or conduct sabotage operations against the other. (tracking of movements and other easily observable information is not prohibited)

    We are currently working on an agreement to exchange information about the local region (the IoM maps are out of date by nearly a year). We are also offering a gift of data on Chaos.

    ----
    GSV Crossing the Bridge has arrived to begin construction of the embassy on the moon. In accordance with our preliminary agreement with the Tau, we will not use our stealth in their systems.

    The Tau have begun to ask questions about our starship drive system as its performance eclipses theirs by nearly three or four orders of magnitude.

    ----
    They also appear interested in our remote manipulation capability and construction power after an effector aided nanobot swarm completed the embassy in three days.

    Week 2
    ROU Gunboat Diplomacy has arrived at Macragge and attempted to contact the Space Marine Chapter there.

    How are the SMs going to react to an ROU appearing in the same system as their homeworld? The idea here is to try peaceful contact, perhaps open direct 3-way negotiations between the IoM and Tau and Culture.

  16. - Top - End - #976
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Well, Macragge would let them finally come into contact with Robute Gulliman.

    Oh lord, here it comes.

  17. - Top - End - #977
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    I still think the Culture would be a ways off from being able to cure Girlyman. He was poisoned with a warp-infused venom, something they still only have a bare inkling of understanding about.

  18. - Top - End - #978
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Well, Space Marines tend to be rather forceful at the best of times. This goes doubly when it comes to their homeworld and defending it.

    On the flip-side, the Ultrasmurfs Ultramarines have been known to co-operate/negotiate with less-openly-hostile Xenos, so, yeah.
    Not sure, could go in any number of ways very very easily.

    The only thing we can really rule out is Robert Guilleman being involved.

  19. - Top - End - #979
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Well... the Ultramarines would probably want them to leave the system. Even if they weren't hostile, they would certainly be territorial. And very, very, very wary. And wanting this new group to 'prove' themselves. But Astartes have sent their own diplomatic emissaries to peaceful aliens (such as the Tau), to get a sense of them as possible foes at a point in the future, or as allies of convenience. Astartes don't really do long term alliances; it isn't really part of their mandate or the sorts of power they are given, though they will happily direct things at hated foes or work together short term against major enemies...

    Though if you offer them a chance to gain back lost Chapter artifacts / regain lost honor / save a captured member / a way to fight a most hated foe... some rules can be bent... but remember that the Ultramarines are first and foremost loyal to the Imperium. They just aren't as xenophobic as many aspects of it, due to how... distant they are from the rest of it. Astartes, in general, are really quite hyper-focused and don't really spend much any time doing 'normal' human things, though that varies from chapter to chapter.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-06 at 12:29 AM.

  20. - Top - End - #980
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    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    We are currently working on an agreement to exchange information about the local region (the IoM maps are out of date by nearly a year).
    This line right here? That's hilarious when taken in context of the Imperium of man. They'd more likely be 'it's only a year out of date? Brilliant!'
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  21. - Top - End - #981
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    This line right here? That's hilarious when taken in context of the Imperium of man. They'd more likely be 'it's only a year out of date? Brilliant!'
    I knooow. Seeing as how they often have to do with starcharts millenia out of date... a century or two isn't seen as that bad. A year out of date is pretty much completely up to date, as far as the IoM is concerned...

    EDIT: moving the stuff to later post.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-06 at 01:07 AM.

  22. - Top - End - #982
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    How's the diplomatic situation between the Tau and Macragge?

    ---------------------------

    XD and yes, the map being nearly up to date comes from a composite map from multiple IoM sources. Obviously, there are less well traveled systems that are going to be more out of date.

    Then again, to the Culture, a month is probably considered "needs updating". A year is like... old stuff man.

  23. - Top - End - #983
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Complicated. The Tau are currently encroaching more on Imperium worlds, and the only reason they aren't getting slapped back by the Imperial war machine is that it's currently focusing on other areas.
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  24. - Top - End - #984
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by jseah View Post
    How's the diplomatic situation between the Tau and Macragge?
    Pre or Post Matt Ward nonsense? Pre Ward, chilly if cordial, with the Tau and the Ultrasmurfs having ganged up against greater threats a couple of times and being in a tentative state of peace. Post-Ward, they're great pals who work together extremely well, despite the Ultramarines singlehandedly undoing the entire Tau Third Sphere Expansion with bolter-fire and orbital bombardments.

    Or, if you want to look at it a different way, better than the relationship between the Ultramarines and a lot of actual Imperial factions, judging by the new Allies matrix...
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Basically, the Imperium really want the Tau to stop taking their worlds. The Tau really want to expand. Both really don't like things like Tyranids or Necrons or Chaos, and will work together against those. But there is a major tension due to the fact that the Tau is, yaknow...annexing and settling worlds.



    Also, three way negotiations between them and the Tau... yea, I don't think the Ultramarines really have the, you know... rank to negotiate on behalf of the Imperium at large. If you wanted someone to negotiate on behalf of the Imperium in general... hmmm. The Lord Macragge could speak for, well, the Ultramar region of the Imperium, but not much more than that, and even then he dare not be too peaceful or passive. The Tau did specifically negotiate with Astartes before, specifically Imperial Fists, trying to be peaceful. This was in the 3e Codex Tau. What was basically said by the Astartes, was 'Yes, you are powerful, but we must still fight you if we are told, and we will be told, as we both want the same worlds. We are under an obligation to fight for our worlds, and we must see our duty through. We never give up worlds.'



    Also, the Tau diplomats are the Water Caste. Most diplomatic interactions would go through them... the Ethereal cast are, you know, not well known for actually taking part of diplomacy, unless in a symbolic method. They might be there to be nominal leaders, but the Water Caste will do the heavy lifting of diplomacy itself.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-06 at 01:07 AM.

  26. - Top - End - #986
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Would the Tau be satisfied with expansion into unsettled space? The Culture can provide terraforming technology to make planets habitable.

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    Short term? Yes.

    Long term, no. A big part of the Tau's philosophical underpinnings is that their way is the best, and all others need to be made to be a part of it. Might actually remind the Culture of the Iridians.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Quote Originally Posted by Tavar View Post
    Short term? Yes.

    Long term, no. A big part of the Tau's philosophical underpinnings is that their way is the best, and all others need to be made to be a part of it. Might actually remind the Culture of the Iridians.
    This is only true if you assume that Tau culture is a static and unchangeable thing, that will refuse to accept political realities or an existing situation in any way.

    EDIT: In the Cultureverse, Taulikes aren't that unusual. Many many societies are that vibrant and self assured with themselves, but then settle into a more passive form after becoming a powerful and secure interstellar force. The alternative after all, is absolutely horrifying warfare against technological superiors with material advantage.
    Last edited by Selrahc; 2012-12-06 at 02:36 AM.
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    Indeed. While any form of expansion would be of great immediate interest to the Tau, and they would be content settling fringe worlds for a while, in the long run they have an extremely strong mentality that the only possible route to true peace, unity and civilization is through adherence to the Greater Good and loyalty to the Etherial Caste. They aren't necessarily to the point that the Culture would consider them abhorrent (unlike the Iridians, from what I've heard secondhand at least, the Tau are very willing to adapt their methods to the needs and wants of their subject races and allow a great range of cultural diversity so long as you do what the Etherials say), but at the end of the day they're a very imperialistic society, and will never be satisfied with anything short of universal dominion over every other species. Unless, of course, someone were to somehow persuade the Etherials that a different course is better... Which, really, isn't impossible though it is somewhat unlikely. I expect that any long-term interactions between the Tau and the Culture will evolve into an involved and strenuous philosophical debate on the merits of their respective cultures, which given the proclivities and long-thinking nature of both parties, could drag on for millenia.
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  30. - Top - End - #990
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    Default Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

    I don't know how long thinking Tau actually are. They are quick thinking and like to plan to the best of their abilities but at the same time they are over-ambitious and short-lived.
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