The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

[Tiki Snakes]

Potential source of hilarity;
The Culture give the Tau some similar form of rejuvination procedure.
The procedure repairs DNA and purges toxins.

The procedure turns out to purge the pheromones* used by the Ethereals to control the Tau castes, leading to older Tau to revert to their pre-ethereal, selfish and warlike tendancies and rebel against their mysterious overlords and their philosophy of the "greater good".

*Alternatively, simply extending their lifespan gives them time to build up a natural immunity. Or both!

[Gavinfoxx]

Potential source of hilarity;
The Culture give the Tau some similar form of rejuvination procedure.
The procedure repairs DNA and purges toxins.

The procedure turns out to purge the pheromones* used by the Ethereals to control the Tau castes, leading to older Tau to revert to their pre-ethereal, selfish and warlike tendancies and rebel against their mysterious overlords and their philosophy of the "greater good".

*Alternatively, simply extending their lifespan gives them time to build up a natural immunity. Or both!

I don't think this is too likely -- their understanding of biology is really good enough to catch those sorts of things...

[jseah]

Why do the Tau wish to expand? What is their motivation?

Would they be happy to simply develop their own systems? The Culture can provide requisite forcefield tech, high density-materials and Orbital construction technologies for the Tau to make artificial planets.

EDIT: and building Orbitals at the Tau tech level is probably sufficiently resource draining that they won't be expanding for the next century or so. Which might be long enough for more cultural contact between the IoM, Tau and Culture.

And, well, I seriously doubt the Culture would be willing to give up it's immortality methods. Those have a host of concerns attached to their use, after all.

What concerns? Apart from the science to also engineer inefficient and uncontrollable biological weapons?

In the case of the Tau, their society is robust enough to withstand far greater shocks than having a leader stick around for a couple of centuries before an accident does him in.

Now, reload technology (and the implied support tech like atomic-precision nanotech and intelligence engineering) is something I can see the Culture hesitating about and certainly in the story won't be planning that transfer any time soon.

[Forum Explorer]

The Tau earnestly believe that the Greater Good is the most superior way of living and wish to spread it's philosophy to all races. They are willing to go to war to teach it to other races.

[Tiki Snakes]

The Tau are a shortlived species with a focus on the greater good. It's not hard to believe that dramatically expanding their lifespan would change their psychology. You go from a position where you are aware that you only have a very short time to live, to potentially having such a very long time to exist.

It's the kind of simple, beneficient gift that could completely destroy the Greater Good ethos, undermine it completely as the Tau begin to focus increasingly on themselves and what they can get. I'm not saying that would definately happen, but it's exactly the kind of thing I'd imagine the Culture would bear in mind.

Especially if they aren't aware that the focus on the Greater Good is, possibly at least in part down to mind control.

Depending on what you believe, the Tau are specifically focused on expansion because that's what they have been designed for. Probably by the Eldar. Individual Tau might be quite happy with expanding into uninhabited space, but the Ethereals would very much (if you hold to this theory) push more exclusively for targeting the Imperium (regardless of whether they are actually equipped or prepared to deal with ruling so many human worlds).

The official line the Tau hold to, though, is that they expand because they are bringing the Greater Good to the universe, and that everyone has to join their way sooner or later. They'll ask first, but the question is rhetorical.

[Tavar]

Why do the Tau wish to expand? What is their motivation?

Would they be happy to simply develop their own systems? The Culture can provide requisite forcefield tech, high density-materials and Orbital construction technologies for the Tau to make artificial planets.

EDIT: and building Orbitals at the Tau tech level is probably sufficiently resource draining that they won't be expanding for the next century or so. Which might be long enough for more cultural contact between the IoM, Tau and Culture.

Like I said previously, they're somewhat similar to the Iridians, who believe that they have a religious mandate to expand. And part of that mandate is that they need to either absorb other governments into their fold, or destroy them if necessary. A large part of this is focused on other populations, which is why I don't think they'd be willing to solely expand on the fringe. Oh, they wouldn't mind doing that(especially since in order to do so one would need to give them better engines, one of their main limiting factors), partially because they do realize that at the moment they need more population. But such an expansion would be a means to an end.

What concerns? Apart from the science to also engineer inefficient and uncontrollable biological weapons?

In the case of the Tau, their society is robust enough to withstand far greater shocks than having a leader stick around for a couple of centuries before an accident does him in.

Have you read Use of Weapons? There are quite a few problems with introducing people who live substantially longer than normal. Culture Life expansion tech is not freely given out, because doing so is very likely to destroy civilizations.

[Gavinfoxx]

Why do the Tau wish to expand? What is their motivation?

To bring other species into their fold and make them a part of The Greater Good. To bring all other peoples into their dominion and bring prosperity and peace and harmony to everyone, for the benefit of all.

[Oracle_Hunter]

Have you read Use of Weapons? There are quite a few problems with introducing people who live substantially longer than normal. Culture Life expansion tech is not freely given out, because doing so is very likely to destroy civilizations.

Yeah, civilizations tend to change dramatically when you affect one of their fundamental principles such as Death and Taxes.

Hell, even allowing people to move faster can radically change the pattern of life. Compare America pre-automobile and post-automobile or pre-railroad and post-railroad.

That said, if The Culture doesn't mind discriminatory application of Life Extension then this is an ideal way to cement the Ethereals in their camp. They just need to pick out which Ethereals are sympathetic to Culture "guidance" in the expansion of the Greater Good and double their life expectancy. So long as they do this quietly enough soon all your Ethereals will be pro-Culture where "soon" is "the maximum life expectancy of an unaltered Ethereal"

While we're on the Tau there are some other problems:
(1) Population Size -- the Tau have a finite number of people with which to populate new planets and a set rate at which new Tau can be made ready to populate planets. Unless The Culture wants to vat-breed Tau, this is a hard constraint on their ability to expand.

(2) Command Structure -- the Tau do not function properly without oversight of their Ethereal class. There is a finite limit to the number of Tau the population of Ethereals can effectively control, particularly as they must be there in person to control Tau. Tau without Ethereal oversight may end up like the Farsight Enclaves. Again, Culture vat-breeding Tau can fix this, but it is a consideration.

* * *
So yeah, unless The Culture are willing to build an Orbital or two dedicated to vat-breeding Tau, the Tau are not going to be an effective weapon in a war that is galactic in scale.

[Gavinfoxx]

The thing is, this Culture is making a conscientious choice to destabilize power groups. At least, some power groups.

[Tavar]

Note that the Culture can be fine with a plan that takes centuries to come to fruition. So, while the Tau aren't perfect at the moment, the Culture could help speed things up a bit.

[jseah]

Have you read Use of Weapons? There are quite a few problems with introducing people who live substantially longer than normal. Culture Life expansion tech is not freely given out, because doing so is very likely to destroy civilizations.

Gonna try now. Haven't read that book yet unfortunately.

Spare me the reading and just describe how it ends up? I know the thing about Death and Taxes and all that, but when it comes down to it, exactly how does giving the Tau immortality treatments destroy the Greater Good?

And if it leads to reform towards a less evangelical Greater Good, isn't that a *good* thing from the Culture's point of view?

[Gavinfoxx]

Basically... your version of The Culture is way more aggressive in spreading tech and it's methods of interaction than the canonical Culture. And also it's more into more modern types of post-cyberpunk immortality and uploading and body modification and other similar tropes of the transhuman and similar genres. And it is much more willing to destabilize governments, and willing to just 'take' the possible fallout that might cause.

[Misery Esquire]

And if it leads to reform towards a less evangelical Greater Good, isn't that a *good* thing from the Culture's point of view?

"Reforms" means Farsight-style civil war, as the people brainwashed hypnotised who believe in the Ethereals take on the Tau who think the Ethereals are a sham. And if civil war breaks out en masse, the IoM will lulz!Crusade thier way all over the (comparitively) small Tau corner of the galaxy.

The Black Templars are probably raring for another go, as it is.

[Tiki Snakes]

Gonna try now. Haven't read that book yet unfortunately.

Spare me the reading and just describe how it ends up? I know the thing about Death and Taxes and all that, but when it comes down to it, exactly how does giving the Tau immortality treatments destroy the Greater Good?

And if it leads to reform towards a less evangelical Greater Good, isn't that a *good* thing from the Culture's point of view?

There are many ways it could destroy or undermine the Greater Good.
Here's a few off the top of my head.

Breaking the Ethereal's control of the other castes. (Very likely side-effect of such a treatment).
Increased lifespan shifts the focus away from selflessness and sacrifice because they now have so much more to lose, selfishness undermines the concept, Tau become a bleak 80's distopian consumerist kingdom, callous and inward looking.
Tau become risk averse due to extended lifespans, but it manifests in them deciding that Humans are too risky to keep (upon their inevitable exposure to the real forces of chaos). They shift from taking over planets via any means possible to favouring exterminatus style tactics to keep the humans from tearing rifts in spacetime.
The short lifespan might very well be an innate side-effect of their warp-dulled-souls. Enhancing their lifespan could effectively put a shine on their souls. Suddenly, the Tau are not warp resistant anymore, empire eaten by demons.
Tampering with the Tau on such a level risks revealing any existing tampering. Such as the creation of the Ethereals in the first place. Their creators (I believe the Harlequins are prime suspects in this theory?) decide to cut their losses and arrange for the Tau to be wiped out as a failed experiment rather than risk it becoming widely known. Alternatively, it becomes widely known triggering a massive existential crisis amongst Tau.

Edit - And if the Tau were created, it was for a purpose and if that is derailed, it would very likely annoy someone. Possibly several someones, given the setting.

[Tavar]

The issue is that that changing the greater good to be a more 'safe' version requires a scalpels finesse. Whereas the simple method of giving them immortality is like trying to do the same thing with a sledgehammer. Which, really, sums up most of your ideas on how to fix things by freely giving tech.

In fact, if they avoid a total culture collapse, the most likely outcome left is for them to get even more evangelical, as suddenly population growth gets weird. This would allow them to expand much more easily.

As for destroying the Greater Good, I didn't say that it would. I said it would quite possibly destroy their civilization, which is different.

[Gavinfoxx]

Are they a sham though?

Just because there are biological incentives for a race to follow the leadership of a particular group doesn't inherently make it wrong. Like I said earlier, pretty much every race has biological incentives to follow a particular leader or something. Even humans. Especially humans. A huge amount of our instincts are involved in following socially dominant individuals and such...

[Tiki Snakes]

Given the nature of 40k canon, it's not like it's a sure thing.
But if we assume the theory is true, then there's a massive difference there between social conditioning and direct/indirect mind-control. Especially when it's not a natural part of the society or the species but is instead the result of external tinkering.

Even then, there are philosophical grey-areas because the Greater Good may or may not be the greater good for any given faction in the setting. It could be that they are literally intended to foster utopian societies. It's equally likely they are designed entirely to screw over the Imperium in the mid term and humanity in the long term, so that once the eldar have figured out their problems they can comfortably brush aside the few remnants and assume their rightful place as Lords of All.

[Gavinfoxx]

The thing is, in real life, if we are talking about the specific human instincts that are involved in maintaining social cohesion, they are... really quite close to what people think of as mind control.

Seriously.

Consider, that one of the theories of the evolutionary basis of humans having depression is when their abilities threaten their superiors. So if someone is more competent than their superior, if they demonstrated their full capabilities, it will likely bring attack -- so a good protection is to conceal those abilities and deceive oneself about those abilities. Further, depression often results when a person doesn't win a hierarchy battle but refuses to yield, so it is a sort of involuntary submission. Depression, and the serotonin system, mediates status hierarchies is Homo Sapiens.

Source: Why We Get Sick by Dr. Randolph Nesse and Dr. George Williams.

[jseah]

Basically... your version of The Culture is way more aggressive in spreading tech and it's methods of interaction than the canonical Culture. And also it's more into more modern types of post-cyberpunk immortality and uploading and body modification and other similar tropes of the transhuman and similar genres. And it is much more willing to destabilize governments, and willing to just 'take' the possible fallout that might cause.

Fair enough. Although I would like to point out that apart from the Rogue Trader, the rest are just more or less unimplemented plans and negotiations with equals (Eldar and Necrons are mature enough to handle high tech)

Then again, there's about no way for me to avoid putting my own colour on the Culture (regarding the more post-modernist outlook on intelligence and life), so I won't even try to avoid that. Part of that is a certain bias towards thinking like a 4x game since that is the closest experience I have to anything like this.

[Gavinfoxx]

Also, I like your Culture better than the default. It's more dynamic!

[Tavar]

Oh, I have no issue with the Necron/Eldar stuff, as those are essentially near equals. The Tau are pretty much infants, though, and giving them any society altering tech(which would include stuff like immortality tech) is a big no-no. Again, in Canon, civilizations which know about the Culture, and have known about them for some time, don't get the treatments, because they are society shattering.

[jseah]

Finished Use of Weapons. If you're going to complain that I read the Culture stuff before 40k stuff... well, let's just say I find them more interesting than grimdark.

Still, UoW was um... dark in its own way. And gives a very interesting perspective on the Culture. Not quite the innocent post-Singularity postmodernist all-accepting society I had the impression of. It's considerably more homogeneous than I expected and isn't afraid to tweak (over long periods) other civilizations to match its philosophy.

Also, holy carp, Effectors are even more broken than I expected. Hacking computers at 1 light year range? And it's considered easy? omghax

Oh, I have no issue with the Necron/Eldar stuff, as those are essentially near equals. The Tau are pretty much infants, though, and giving them any society altering tech(which would include stuff like immortality tech) is a big no-no. Again, in Canon, civilizations which know about the Culture, and have known about them for some time, don't get the treatments, because they are society shattering.

XD Perhaps it's my post-modernist bias speaking again, but I really don't see how it's a society shattering technology. Apart from a relatively minor population problem (which is hardly society shattering).

But ok, consider the rejunvenation treatment plan scratched.

Here's a new strategic plan regarding the Tau:
Apart from the social assimilation the Culture has planned in the long term, the Tau aren't going to be direct allies against Chaos. While they will be aided against Chaos and any data from them will be appreciated, the Culture will not rely on them to act directly against Chaos.

Instead, the Culture will back them over the medium term in non-game changing ways, like weapons and war technologies as well as help with Tyranids, so they can build a stable mini-empire in this region that will hopefully be friendly to the Culture. (sorry, Macragge, some sacrifices have to be made; its either them or the Tau, and the Tau look alot better)
In the meantime, assimilation of human planets will hopefully give the Tau some experience with Chaos and a source of on-the-ground experience. Relevant technologies like mind probes for scanning people for Chaos contaminations may be provided; will be played by ear.

They hope to be able to negotiate the following concessions from the Tau:
- The Tau warpdrive technology
- Tau and Kroot genetic material
- A scientific cooperation agreement to investigate potential Chaos contamination in Tau society (optional)

In exchange for:
- Military aid from the Culture against Tyranids
- Weapons technology and refinements (an order of magnitude improvement on Tau pulse rifles and railguns, they'll outrange and outgun everyone else nearby)
- Basic construction and material sciences (much better and lighter armours, cheaper vehicles)
- STL drive optimizations (better accelerations than IoM drives as well as longer cannon ranges should allow for a massive force multiplier in space combat, all but assuring the Tau can expand without fear of a crushing retaliation)


---- Note: from Use of Weapons, it appears that I have again underestimated Culture weaponry. An order of magnitude improvement to Tau pulse rifles would be a piece of cake.
So that their basic Fire Warrior infantry carries a new weapon as powerful as say... an XV-88 railgun, with about three times that range. To say nothing of the XV-88's replacement, which will be mostly artillery range.

[PairO'Dice Lost]

XD Perhaps it's my post-modernist bias speaking again, but I really don't see how it's a society shattering technology. Apart from a relatively minor population problem (which is hardly society shattering).

The issue with immortality tech is less a societal problem (overpopulation, changing social norms, and such) and more a political problem, given the presence of a ruling caste. When the "for life" part of Dictator-for-Life suddenly means over a millennium instead of a few decades at best, incompetent or outright malicious governments become a major problem. If the Culture selectively gives immortality to benevolent, Culture-friendly leaders, then as Oracle_Hunter said, "soon all your Ethereals will be pro-Culture where 'soon' is "the maximum life expectancy of an unaltered Ethereal," whereas if they just give the Tau immortality tech with no strings attached it's possible that they'll end up with the Tau equivalent of an immortal Stalin, Hitler, Pol Pot, or the like.

[jseah]

part 8.5 Tau - Finale

Spoiler

Show

And so ends a relatively peaceful three weeks with the Tau. This ship believes that we are nearing consensus on an approach towards this relatively minor power.

The Tau are a collectivist race with an open door foreign policy and an aptitude as well as desire for negotiation with other races, to the point where they will not condemn entire species simply due to a few examples. The Tau are not xenophobic like so many others we have met in this galaxy.
Their desire for the assimilation of others into the Greater Good can be forgiven in light of their youth as a race and lack of experience. The Greater Good itself can also be seen as a reflection of their low technological capability and resource constraints, and while currently unpalatable if involuntarily thrust upon other civilizations will certainly change as the Tau mature.

This unique stance places the Tau close to us in philosophy and their willingness to adopt and adaptibility to technology will make them robust allies and future equals.
The Eldar and Necrons are mature races that have and will survive for eons, once possessing reach and power, and their help or at least understanding will greatly aid our task in containing Chaos. However, they will never be truly allies; and we never had true allies or equals in our home galaxy, all were affliated with us, developing or Ascended. The Tau have a chance to be that, distinct and different but friendly and equal; if only they are helped and given some time.

It is for these reasons that we, GCU Peacemaker, ROU Gunboat Diplomacy and GSV Crossing the Bridge, recommend that friendly policy be taken towards the Tau and reformation efforts start only through cultural exchange. In fact, we are growing into the opinion that aiding the Tau against potential IoM attack might be able to draw concessions from the Tau to avoid hostile actions against the IoM, particularly if we inform them of strength and size of the IoM and not provide technological game changers.
It will be obvious that our diplomatic situation with the IoM will worsen as we aid an expansionist "xeno" empire that aims to assimilate their worlds. However, we are of the opinion that diplomatic peace with the IoM is acheivable only through our immense technological edge and that no real cooperation is possible in the medium to long term.

Since this plan is in medium to long term, we anticipate no rush and open our proposal to further debate. Specifics and details are also open to the floor for addition and modification, a basic timeline is already being drawn up.

So as a summary, the Culture are considering a plan similar to the one above where they help to stabilize the region in the Tau's favour by providing powerful weapon enhancements in exchange for the warp drive and a concession that the Tau do not slaughter or recklessly expand into IoM space. And they provide guidelines to handling Chaos contaminations on human populations.

Sure, it'll piss off the Ultramarines, but with an intelligence and capability edge, the Tau should ultimately be able to hold off any local attack and yet, if cautious enough once informed of the IoM's size, still be unthreatening enough that no major attack is called for.
As well as that the Tau don't have to worry about the Tyranids anymore.

The Culture will hope that as the Tau grow a little, the Greater Good will mellow out into more a social structure than a religion-like thing. (they still don't know about the Ethereal business)
The selected immortality business can also be used if necessary, but is still on the shelf at the moment.

[Tiki Snakes]

part 8.5 Tau - Finale

Spoiler

Show

And so ends a relatively peaceful three weeks with the Tau. This ship believes that we are nearing consensus on an approach towards this relatively minor power.

The Tau are a collectivist race with an open door foreign policy and an aptitude as well as desire for negotiation with other races, to the point where they will not condemn entire species simply due to a few examples. The Tau are not xenophobic like so many others we have met in this galaxy.
Their desire for the assimilation of others into the Greater Good can be forgiven in light of their youth as a race and lack of experience. The Greater Good itself can also be seen as a reflection of their low technological capability and resource constraints, and while currently unpalatable if involuntarily thrust upon other civilizations will certainly change as the Tau mature.

This unique stance places the Tau close to us in philosophy and their willingness to adopt and adaptibility to technology will make them robust allies and future equals.
The Eldar and Necrons are mature races that have and will survive for eons, once possessing reach and power, and their help or at least understanding will greatly aid our task in containing Chaos. However, they will never be truly allies; and we never had true allies or equals in our home galaxy, all were affliated with us, developing or Ascended. The Tau have a chance to be that, distinct and different but friendly and equal; if only they are helped and given some time.

It is for these reasons that we, GCU Peacemaker, ROU Gunboat Diplomacy and GSV Crossing the Bridge, recommend that friendly policy be taken towards the Tau and reformation efforts start only through cultural exchange. In fact, we are growing into the opinion that aiding the Tau against potential IoM attack might be able to draw concessions from the Tau to avoid hostile actions against the IoM, particularly if we inform them of strength and size of the IoM and not provide technological game changers.
It will be obvious that our diplomatic situation with the IoM will worsen as we aid an expansionist "xeno" empire that aims to assimilate their worlds. However, we are of the opinion that diplomatic peace with the IoM is acheivable only through our immense technological edge and that no real cooperation is possible in the medium to long term.

Since this plan is in medium to long term, we anticipate no rush and open our proposal to further debate. Specifics and details are also open to the floor for addition and modification, a basic timeline is already being drawn up.

So as a summary, the Culture are considering a plan similar to the one above where they help to stabilize the region in the Tau's favour by providing powerful weapon enhancements in exchange for the warp drive and a concession that the Tau do not slaughter or recklessly expand into IoM space. And they provide guidelines to handling Chaos contaminations on human populations.

Sure, it'll piss off the Ultramarines, but with an intelligence and capability edge, the Tau should ultimately be able to hold off any local attack and yet, if cautious enough once informed of the IoM's size, still be unthreatening enough that no major attack is called for.
As well as that the Tau don't have to worry about the Tyranids anymore.

The Culture will hope that as the Tau grow a little, the Greater Good will mellow out into more a social structure than a religion-like thing. (they still don't know about the Ethereal business)
The selected immortality business can also be used if necessary, but is still on the shelf at the moment.

Hmm. I'm not sure on this, but my gut tells me that if you give the Tau significantly superior weapons on the proviso that they don't recklessly slaughter or expand into IoM space, that the first thing they are going to do is expand into IoM space. Because, now that they have such superior weapons there's nothing reckless about it. They can bring the humans into the fold of the greater good at a far more efficient speed, because they can outclass their hostile forces and surely the humans will acknoledge their technological superiority and do the rational thing and join voluntarily, so it'll all work out fine.

Which is to say, I see them agreeing to not slaughter or expand recklessly and then expand and slaughter recklessly but totally not believe that's what they're doing.

Just from a philosophical point of view, that is. The possibility that the Ethereals plans require specifically that they expand as fast as they can as directly as they can into Tau space would only make this more likely.

As for anything that involves the ultramarines losing their homeworld, uuuuh.
I don't know. That seems kind of a...poor decision. Especially as the Ultramarines are the progenitor chapter of the overwhelming majority of space marine chapters. Sure, not all of them get on, but if some new alien threat turns up, gives the Tau omgwtfbbq weapons and basically gifts them Macragge, the chance of a legion-sized crusade directly on the Tau get very, very good.

And if the Culture intercede by wiping out an entire legion's worth of Space Marines would not only very likely close off a large number of chances of the Culture ever having friendly relations with the IoM, it could also significantly destablize or even cripple the IoM, gifting large sectors of space to Chaos.

Edit - It is my opinion that the central trait of the Tau is that they do look better, kinder, nicer, wiser, you name it. They certainly look it. That doesn't mean they are. In a universe as deadly, as dangerous, as twisted and dark as this one, with so many significant risks and threats and so on, they sit somewhere between naively and criminally unprepared. The fact that they don't always shoot first doesn't change the fact that they are ruthlessly expansionist imperialistic and essentially militant, it just means they have a suite of more insidious tools at their disposal.

[The Glyphstone]

People talk about the Black Templars being the largest Chapter because they blatantly, if not openly, violate the 1000 active marine limit, but the Ultramarines have a much larger total manpower pool because of personal connections. Every one of the Ultramarines successor chapters still venerates Guilleman and maintains strong diplomatic ties to their parent chapter. Anyone who takes out Macragge is going to have to be ready to deal with a dozen or more entire Chapters coming after them simultaneously with blood in their eyes - and that's just the ones that'll be closest to the action.

[Gavinfoxx]

Finished Use of Weapons. If you're going to complain that I read the Culture stuff before 40k stuff... well, let's just say I find them more interesting than grimdark.

Still, UoW was um... dark in its own way. And gives a very interesting perspective on the Culture. Not quite the innocent post-Singularity postmodernist all-accepting society I had the impression of. It's considerably more homogeneous than I expected and isn't afraid to tweak (over long periods) other civilizations to match its philosophy.

What have I been telling you? Your Culture is more varied and all accepting than the canon one... but remember the timing of the books compared to when THIS is set! Use of weapons is set in 2092, this is set sometime ~2800. That's kinda a big difference!

Here's a new strategic plan regarding the Tau:
Apart from the social assimilation the Culture has planned in the long term, the Tau aren't going to be direct allies against Chaos. While they will be aided against Chaos and any data from them will be appreciated, the Culture will not rely on them to act directly against Chaos.

Why not? If they figure out how and why the Tau are resistant...

(sorry, Macragge, some sacrifices have to be made; its either them or the Tau, and the Tau look alot better)

Well... I have some ideas for that! How about this. If there is any place where you would find a Radical Ordo Xenos Recongregator / Xenos Hybris (well, an equivalent for that last bit with a different, and local, name), it would be here. After all, there are several things working for them in this area:
1.) The Ultramarines are known to work with various xenos in particular
2.) The Lord Macragge has pretty solid control over this area, and convincing the Lord Macragge of something will get a change through this Ultramarines controlled area of space, since Ultramar is a self-contained microcosm that has a huge amount of independence in general.
3.) Talassa Prime is owned by the Ordo Xenos in the area, and has the home of the Deathwatch, so if things go wrong, you have a LOT of specialized xenos hunters. Further, having the Deathwatch go and violently capture a bunch of Xenos equipment for analysis is a thing that should happen regularly in this area! In fact, there should probably be some friendly-competing cliques of Ordos Xenos in the area.
4.) There is only really one Mechanicus world, Konor, which is just a research world, which means that the Mechanicus can really be bullied. Further, these Mechanicus should generally be the type whose job it is, is to specifically analyze and reverse-engineer Xenos equipment!
5.) The Tau Empire is the place that a bunch of Xenostech is coming from, which has been traded on the black market all around the Imperium!

In fact, I would suggest that this Inquisitor (lets say that the Radicals' power is waxing at Talassa Prime currently, ie, the Deathwatch has mainly been capturing Xenostech for analysis for the past few decades) would probably have an Ultramarine as part of his Retinue (on loan from the Ultramarines). Probably ex-Deathwatch (ie, he was there for a tour of duty or two), probably a Librarian of Epistolary rank (ie, the Librarians that can do the Astropathic stuff, amongst other capabilities). And I think that the Inquisitor should openly carry a Pulse Pistol. And he would be very, very interested in having him and his retinue be able to peacefully contact The Culture, and visit one of their ships...


Note: THE CULTURE SCANNING TALASSA PRIME WOULD BE A HUGE DEAL. Just saying. Doing that should get them a huge amount of intel on the Webway, and human and Astartes entry into the Webway, maybe even the Black Library, definitely bonesingers and other types of Eldar psycho-plastics and psychic artisans that are different than bonesingers, and Tau dull souls, and details on Orks, and how that experiment with regards to introducing a blank into near a Tau Ethereal went, and any of innumerable things. Just saying.

They hope to be able to negotiate the following concessions from the Tau:

- Tau and Kroot genetic material

Why not the other species as part of the Tau empire? Why not some of them coming to live on Culture ships? Why not just have a personnel exchange? Why not have the Culture ask for some psykers from the Tau Empire races that have them (heh, a Kroot that ate a bunch of Eldar...) come live with them, to help them with data on the Warp?

- Weapons technology and refinements (an order of magnitude improvement on Tau pulse rifles and railguns, they'll outrange and outgun everyone else nearby)

Well, there's also the fact that Tau use Neutron cannons, Fusion cannons, plasma cannons, flamers, missiles, ion cannons, drones, torpedoes, gravitic/magnetic railguns, etc. One thing they have had trouble doing, though, is getting the same shooting weaponry advantage on their ships that they have had on the ground. Their gravitic shields are often considered somewhat worse than Imperial shields, and Imperial has shield technology for all scales (personal, vehicle, walker, voidship), though use on some scales is absurdly rare in the Imperium. Further, the Tau have difficulty scaling up their weaponry as well as Imperials can, due to lack of know-how and experience. At least getting the Tau equivalent to the Imperium in the technologies that they lack would be kinda a big deal! The Tau need a plausible (non Culture) reason to have rapid tech increases.. and one plausible reason is that they were looking to annex a Forge World in the area, but were repulsed. If they DID manage to annex that, various improvements in their tech could seem to not come from The Culture, as long as they seemed to be plausibly based on or inspired by Imperial designs! This would provide plausible deniability to The Culture!

---- Note: from Use of Weapons, it appears that I have again underestimated Culture weaponry. An order of magnitude improvement to Tau pulse rifles would be a piece of cake.
So that their basic Fire Warrior infantry carries a new weapon as powerful as say... an XV-88 railgun, with about three times that range. To say nothing of the XV-88's replacement, which will be mostly artillery range.

And what of the other weapons? Tank scale ion cannons. Plasma cannons. Hell, the Tau don't use all of their weapon types on ship-scales, because they have difficulty upsizing weapons to ship scale. Also, their drone tech could use some more miniaturization and AI improvements, as could their missile and torpedo tech. And ways of scaling up their other stuff to ship and titan (which would be on their heavy fliers rather than walkers) scale. And they could have improvements in the type of energy weapons that the Imperium uses -- lasers and plasma at certain scales, as well. AND a few Imperial railguns are sometimes better than Tau Railguns for specific purposes (some of the Macrocannons and bombardment cannons are railguns, for example, are better than Tau equivalents for particular purposes).



Also. I would suggest that The Culture protect the space of Ultramar from the Tau. The Ordos Xenos in the area -- and a large number of Radical Inquisitors in the area, and several not-as-xenophobic Astartes chapters in the area, would be interesting. Also the fact that if the body of a Primarch is lost from Imperial control basically means immediate, huge, massive Crusade...

[The Glyphstone]

In terms of long-term positive change, the Ultramarines would be much better allies than the Tau, though exponentially more difficult to get that way. Rowboat Girlyman may have been a titanic jerkwad, but the modern-day Ultramarines are the closest thing the Space Marines get to diplomats. If there's any hope of the Culture making inroads into the broader Imperial culture that doesn't involve violent upheaval or takeover (though it will anyways, because hilarity), that road lies through the Ultramarines.

[Tavar]

Yeah...the Tau are pretty dark once you get to certain levels, especially with regards to Humanity. Stuff like Mass Sterilizations seem to not be too uncommon, for example.

The Fact that they are extremely expansionistic can't be forgotten, either. Give them the means to expand better(and upping their weapon tech is doing this) means that they will invade more, and faster, which will likely bring them into more conflict with the Warp. If that happens, they're likely to get even tougher on Humanity.

Also, if they start expanding again, it will likely start an new crusade, which will cause huge amounts of deaths. I mean, if they Tau are really that much better, then it's possible for the Imperium to start using Scorched Planet tactics against the Tau. Yes, the Culture could prevent pretty much all of the methods for doing so, but doing that would fix them in on alliance at war with the Imperium, a war that will end with the complete destabilization of the Imperium, greatly increasing Chaos's Influence.

Nevermind the response the Tau have when they fully realize the threat humanity and it's warp connection places them in. I believe it's hinted that full realization of this thread could make the Tau genocidal towards Humanity.

[Gavinfoxx]

The mass sterilizations was because they had no idea how to handle these planets that seem to have gone completely insane, and the Tau have no idea how or why or what is going on or how to deal with it.