The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction

[Selrahc]

The term for a Culture offshoot is "Ulterior".

EDIT: Also, OMG. Imagine if this was all the work of an Ulterior Faction, who views themself as the real Culture? And then the actual Culture realize what they're doing...

[jseah]

part 9.5 Rogue Trader

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Week 1
The Space Hulk the Rogue Trader has been tracking has left its position, disappearing into the Warp. We have watched for its return but this has not been fruitful.

Still, based on that hunch, the Rogue Trader has continued to head in its general direction, he will soon leave our exploration front and enter weakly held territory.

Golden Goose will continue to tail him, while an Effector equipped large drone maintains communications with his asteroid platforms. The techpriest he left to manage the nanobots on the platform is accompanied by Aisha as we attempt to implement better living and working conditions to reduce accidents and raise morale. We have managed to persuade the Rogue Trader that this is a good way to cheaply raise productivity.

Week 2
Golden Goose has spotted the Space Hulk the Rogue Trader has been tracking at the edge of a minor Hive World. Accompanying it is three Chaos vessels, one cruiser and two escorts, heavily damaged in what appears to be a post-battle debris field around the space hulk. What remains of the IoM guard force, an undamaged Sword class, a mildly damaged Galaxy class armed freighter and a disabled (engines destroyed) defense monitor, are in high orbit around the Hive World. It is apparently a standoff, the two mobile IoM ships cannot attack and win, but the damage Chaos vessels are also not risking a potentially costly attack near the defense monitor (whose weapons are fully functional).
From the battle debris, it is clear that a small skirmish has been fought for the control of this system and the IoM and Chaos have traded ships almost one for one. Our drones deployed to neighbouring systems have picked up a general warning being broadcast about entry to the Hive World and the lack of merchant traffic is already leading to food shortages.

It is clear from IoM records that the Rogue Trader will undoubtedly be the first relief force to arrive as there is no more significant system fleets nearby. A call for a relief naval force is already being sent out at the nearest Forge World but judging from classical IoM inefficiencies, they cannot possibly arrive before massive food shortages on the planet has led to mass death.

We have requested backup from the main Culture Fleet and an ROU and GSV has been diverted to the area. Meanwhile, the Rogue Trader's arrival will tip the balance of power in favour of the IoM. Especially since his ships are hyperdrive equipped and have enhanced weapons.

part 9.5 Eldar

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Week 1 - Day 6
The Eldar farseer we have been negotiating with for more information on the Eldar has been noted to have significant emotional disturbance. When asked why, she merely mentioned that she would need to talk to the main council and left through their teleportation gate.

For the moment, we have no direct contact with the Eldar except for a pair of warriors who have no authority to negotiate with.

The two Eldar Wanderers are considerably more welcoming of our practices than might be expected from the Eldar's reaction in general. Apparently there is more variation among the Eldar that would normally be expected and Wanderers in particular appear open to new experiences and modes of thought. One of the Wanderers has asked to return early so that he can give a report, we have conveyed him to the embassy on the Exodite world.

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SC agent Ethielin-Muat-Vur reporting that the Eldar appear agitated for some reason. Even though this fleet is continuing operations and life as normal, most of the Eldar speak differently and there is a kind of tension between them and how they regard me. A few of them appear to regard me with some hostility.

There is no outright mention to me about this matter so I have little to report. However, I am of the opinion that some event is straining our relations on the Eldar's side and to avoid further inflaming this matter, I will be returning early.

I'm going to run these two side by side.

[etesp]

I have been working off the interpretation that the 'Nids are actually less numerous than given. Their reach is huge because their fleets strike at a system then disappear before anyone reacts as per described in the lexicanum. Relatively few fleets (growing in size each system they eat) will be able to wreak untold amounts of havoc.

Right, makes sense. If this is set when the majority are occupied fighting Orks, that helps explain why there's less need to defend so many plants too.

Being Warp immune also renders them able to strike with impunity since future sight doesn't pick them up. It also makes them very hard to find since the Culture have to stumble across them.

Hm, aren't the Culture's long-range scanners able to pick them up a huge distances?

RE nanobots:
That was kind of a "oops" moment, I didn't know Mars still had scrapcode.
The Culture normally uses nanobots for spying regularly. It's a routine thing for Contact. Self-rep is the only way you'll ever get enough bots to scan a planet (not enough mass even on a GCU, and risk of detection of overly large packages).

If it's standard practice to use self-rep nano, then yea, I could see this as a mistake they may make. Unless they'd got IoM records of Mars scrapcode, which they may not have if they were slow to mass database scan.

Also, updated the updatable link with the latest story post :)

[Selrahc]

Right, makes sense. If this is set when the majority are occupied fighting Orks, that helps explain why there's less need to defend so many plants too.

The other thing is, Tyranid swarms are really really big. 11 Tyranid incursions could be a gigantic ammount. While the Orks are naturally a lot more piecemeal.

[jseah]

Right, makes sense. If this is set when the majority are occupied fighting Orks, that helps explain why there's less need to defend so many plants too.


Hm, aren't the Culture's long-range scanners able to pick them up a huge distances?

The Nid's aren't broadcasting anything since their communication is all warp based. Their fleets likely shut down in interstellar space (a kind of hibernation probably) since that makes sense as they are really slow.

So, its rather unlikely the Culture can detect a Nid fleet further than a couple of lightyears (10?). Which is like, maybe the next system over. Interstellar space is still big enough that they're pretty much going by luck and IoM reports.

Also, each bit of a fleet is really huge compared to the few tens of ships that is the standard in 40k. 10 fleets destroyed is already a major blow-...


Hmmm. The Culture could breed their own set of genestealers (not difficult) and just fill up a planet somewhere. Then they have an ROU babysit them waiting for the Nids to come. When they come, the fleet is rendered down for bio-materials and fed to the genestealers.

In soviet russ- *shot*

[Gavinfoxx]

Hmmm. The Culture could breed their own set of genestealers (not difficult) and just fill up a planet somewhere. Then they have an ROU babysit them waiting for the Nids to come. When they come, the fleet is rendered down for bio-materials and fed to the genestealers.

In soviet russ- *shot*

I really really hope that was a joke.... but I also wince, because it wasn't funny. :P I don't think this is a good idea at all... remember genestealers are sometimes sentient... and it is a Psychic call...!!!

[etesp]

@Selrahc: True.

@jseah: With lightyear distance computer hacking effectors, I'd guess it was a bit more than that even for a splinter fleet running quiet, but yes. And that sounds like an excellent plan :). Wonder how long it'd take the Hive mind to realise something strange is going on and steer clear of it. Probably a while if the Culture fakes a close battle/something the 'nids want, epic curbstomps may scare it off.

[Gavinfoxx]

And that sounds like an excellent plan :)

How can you think this is a good idea?! O,o

[The Glyphstone]

He's already adapted to our style, and sees the HILARITY that could result when the Culture has to attempt to fight All The Tyranids. All Of Them. At The Same Time.

[etesp]

It draws the 'nids together for killing, which means the 'nids don't kill other planets. If the Culture is unable to track down all the hibernating Tyranids and they're going to be a constant pest (unless there's a presence in every system, there will be civilian casualties before the Culture can react, even if they stomp the fleets), then collecting them is positive. Use an otherwise dead world not near anything important, lure them in, blow them up.

Worst case, the Genestealers realise they're a trap and the Tyranids stop coming. Then the planet is sterilized. The ROU does not need to be close to the planet, just pick off incoming nids from a very safe distance. Best case, all Tyranids in <extremely large area> are drawn by the huge Genestealer cult and available biomass, and die.

Am I missing something the Tyranids could do which would cause problems?

Edit: Right, overwhelming numbers. It would certainly be very amusing, maybe cause a bit of a worry, but.. 'nids are squishy. And the Culture won't be holding back. Large area pancakers, maybe some gridfire if they somehow resist that. I guess it could attract in another full Hive fleet.. or maybe All Of The Tyranids in the universe.. But I don't see even that as much of a threat, unless the other ones have some really freaky powers?

Edit2: Hm, I guess the 'nid Psykers could be pretty scary with the whole Hivemind focusing on this place. But multi-lightyear distance while attacking with impossibly powerful large area weapons, the ability to FTL dodge, and just wipe the Genestealers if it gets really bad.. hilarity, yes. But the Culture wants rid of these things, and may just go for it without quite getting what they're up against, and still kill it fast (with a little focus).

[The Glyphstone]

Very overwhelming numbers. If the Culture draws not just the active Hive Fleets, but the entire Tyranid species including however many megafleets are still in deep space beyond the galactic rim...they'd be flooding in faster than the weapons could fire, reconstituting themselves from their own remains almost as fast as you killed them, and tactical FTL would be severely hampered because there would be no space within a few hundred lightyears not physically occupied by Tyranid ships.

Like I said, hilarity. It'd be a Pyrrhic victory at absolute worst, the Culture losing a handful of ships in exchange for effectively wiping out the Tyranids as a functional race forever, but either way it's something to save for the very end of the fic due to sheer apocalypic craziness.

Oh, and then whatever was chasing the Tyranids shows up.


EDIT: And the sheer psychic weight of the Hive Mind would wreak havoc, yeah. That's a weapon the Culture can't stop, so they'd take damage before it was over.

[Gavinfoxx]

I don't see how creating sentients to lure in a fleet, killing the fleet, then killing the sentients, would be morally possible... and I don't see how it would be a guarantee that this would work like you say, nor do I see a possibility about how it wouldn't go absurdly wrong, because, yaknow. Psykers. This many Tyranids in one place would also mess with eeverrryyy biological even remotely in the area...

[etesp]

If all the Tyranids arrived at once, that may be a bit much. But could the Tyranids actually do that? It seems like their FTL is good, but not teleport level. They'd trickle in (well, it'd still be a massive flood which nothing else could remotely fight) but even if all of them started coming at once.. surely they'd not all arrive at once.

And.. Would one world of Genestealers actually have anything like that much drawing power? Even draining this galaxy of 'nids seems like a hell of a lot of drawing power.

However.. yea. That would be an epic battle to read.

And.. maybe the warp powers could cause some damage, but only if there was an extragalactic flood at extreme speed, because the sheer range that the 'nid psykers would have to work at in order to do anything would be insane. The Culture could focus its efforts on extremely long rage weapons, and still have the firepower to not just kill but wipe out them in a way they could not reuse.

@Gavinfoxx: Their sentience could possibly be limited by Culturetech? And the Culture does act to stop HSes, of which Tyranids are one of the worst (EAT EVERYTHING, MAKE IT US).

[The Glyphstone]

It's not an overwhelming instinct...the leading edges would trickle in and get whupped, but the Hive Mind could figure out what was going on, and build up before throwing down. And we're still not entirely sure how Tyranid FTL works, since they apparently change it every edition (I think the Narvhals are current).

One planet's population of Genestealers couldn't pull that hard, but that's rarely more than a few dozen of the things, since they have to hide within a civilization. A literal Planet of Genestealers being cultivated and fed by the Culture would have unimaginably beacon strength.

[Gavinfoxx]

Need I remind you all that this is a Psychic Beacon?!

[The Glyphstone]

Need I remind you all that this is a Psychic Beacon?!

Hence extra hilarity.

So I think we can, at least, agree that Operation Flypaper would be a very...collateral-damage-heavy way to get rid of the Tyranids, when they're being effectively kept in check right now anyways.

[etesp]

hm, I think you guys have convinced me that it's not a risk-free strategy, but.. that makes me want to see it more :p. And I could imagine that at some point (when Chaos seems a little more under control) the Culture would be arrogant enough to try it, considering how little trouble they've had with Tyranids in direct fights so far, and how they are a well hidden annoying pest.

Edit: How about a smaller Genestealer population, just a few times more than you'd get on a planet the Tyranids would normally go for? Enough to have plenty of drawing power to get local 'nids, but nothing extremely out of the ordinary to draw full Hivemind attention?

[jseah]

1. See more Nids than you have CREW weapons
2. Project a solid wall of gridfire 1x1 lightyear across at 2 lightyear range.
3. Fly at 0.5c forward (slow enough to avoid the debris) towards the Nid fleet
4. ???
5. Profit

ROUs also don't have crew (the Culture has observed the Nid effect on biologicals and any ships involved in this operation would be uncrewed), and it's not like crew are at all necessary on Culture ships anyway. It might take a customized ROU but they'll have advance warning.

Nid's can't FTL into a system and have to make the final approach at STL. Lexicanum says it takes weeks to months, more than enough time for backup to show up, and more than enough time to send a modified ROU that can implement the above plan.

The main objection to using that plan would be "ecologically unsound" as the solar system they used as bait won't survive it.

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A Nid fleet big enough to occupy all the space even in something as small as a planet would be far more visible and would be detected even earlier. The corresponding full Hive Fleet just taking the time to gather will almost certainly be discovered before it could even be launched.

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Also "No space to put ships within a few hundred light years" has got to be an exaggeration. There is an equation that describes the density of a blackhole and it goes down as the blackhole gets bigger. What this effectively means is that if you cram enough mass into a certain volume, it turns into a blackhole, and this amount does NOT go up as fast as the size of the blackhole.
What that essentially means is there is a maximum amount of tyranids you can stuff into the same place without them collapsing under their own weight. You won't even need a single light year. A couple of times the size of a sun would have... well, 1 solar mass? Make it ten times bigger than that (1/5th mercury orbit) and it'll have a thousand solar masses and that'll have so much gravity it'll turn into a star and then a blackhole.

Guess what? The Culture CAN project a wall of gridfire that can destroy an entire Ringworld at one go. If at 1AU radius, the Nid Fleet of that size would have enough mass to qualify as a supermassive blackhole (27 million solar masses outweighs the one at the center of the galaxy btw).


Nope, it is simply impossible to safely stuff that many ships in. There have to be gaps or the ships will destroy each other.

[The Glyphstone]

We know the Nids can do funny things with gravity, and every 'Nid is technically a psyker, remember? When the population gets that dense, the laws of physics stop being laws, stop even being guidelines, and become non-binding resolutions and suggestions. It can also affect the rate at which they adapt to their environment...do you really want to ponder a Tyranid fleet that can metabolize Gridfire energy?

I'll admit it's a bit of hyperbole, particularly since there is no canon figure on exactly how many Tyranids exist outside the galaxy, but 'Physics Says No' stops being a valid objection long before that point.

[jseah]

We know the Nids can do funny things with gravity, and every 'Nid is technically a psyker, remember? When the population gets that dense, the laws of physics stop being laws, stop even being guidelines, and become non-binding resolutions and suggestions. It can also affect the rate at which they adapt to their environment...do you really want to ponder a Tyranid fleet that can metabolize Gridfire energy?

It takes at least a generation to do that. They don't get one since the whole fleet will be wiped by the wall in maybe an hour. Provided that isn't the hundred-lightyear-across fleet, which will probably take a couple of a different types of weapons, including nova-scale bombs, gamma-ray bursts, very very fast spinning blackholes or even more exotic stuff.

Still, gavinfoxx's argument is the one I forgot. Genestealers are sentient and almost human. Using them as expendable bait you intend to kill later won't sit right with the Culture. Is it possible to... I dunno, make genestealer bunnies or something non-sentient?

[Gavinfoxx]

Is it possible to... I dunno, make genestealer bunnies or something non-sentient?

Hellifiknow... but likely the psychic call is tied in with the sentience, eh? Warp and powerful psyker souls and all that. The Culture would have to know a LOT more about the psychically capable non sentient biological creatures in the galaxy (of which there are several breeds!) order to make genestealer bunnies with an appropriate psychic call. Which means that they either need the ordos xenos archives, or need to spread out into quite a bit more parts of the galaxy, and make a concerted effort to study these nonsentient psyker animals that are scattered around in pockets of the galaxy... And the archives likely just tell them what to look for and where these things are, and some biological and anatomical data and some partial gene sequencing.

[Maugan Ra]

The Tyranids wouldn't send all their ships to one place, for pretty much precisely that reason. They always hold back, analyse the defenders, and then commit enough well adapted forces to handle them. What possible bait could the Culture offer that would persuade the Tyranids to attack?

Also, I will point out two additional factors. One, not sending organics to fight in no way makes you immune. The Tau have almost certainly tried that. And two, the Tyranids as a whole are smart. Terrifyingly so. If the Culture treats them like idiotic pests, the Culture will die.

[jseah]

Come to think of it, the tyranids and genestealers don't make sense. I mean, intelligent life is more likely to be able to resist assimilation than non-intelligent life (which basically don't stand a chance).

The tyranids render everything down to an organic goop which certainly isn't intelligent. So the intelligence of the thing they're eating doesn't matter.

Given that the tyranids aim to consume as much biomass as possible, genestealer cults really ought to not attract tyranid fleets the way they do. The Nids should prefer systems that have organic biospheres for them to eat (basically oxygen and carbon) and avoid those that could cause them trouble. Like those with higher technology. Of course, they could still nom IoM planets in a pinch but for the Nids' objectives of gathering biomass, they should go after the non-sentient inhabitants or at least low tech.

EDIT: possible posting disruption tomorrow and on the 24th.

[The Glyphstone]

Tyranids are far from the least nonsensical part of this setting, but I'm sure you have realized that.

[Misery Esquire]

Given that the tyranids aim to consume as much biomass as possible, genestealer cults really ought to not attract tyranid fleets the way they do. The Nids should prefer systems that have organic biospheres for them to eat (basically oxygen and carbon) and avoid those that could cause them trouble. Like those with higher technology. Of course, they could still nom IoM planets in a pinch but for the Nids' objectives of gathering biomass, they should go after the non-sentient inhabitants or at least low tech.

On the other hand, the Dark Age Humanity spattered themselves all over every single habitable planet they could lay hands on, and even some that weren't. And the IoM is going the same path ten (twenty, now) thousand years later. So, most habitable planets have Humans on them (or Tau), and we don't hear about the ones that don't.

Even aside from that, the Tyranids want to eat, and as far as they are concerned can eat, everything.

[jseah]

The Tyranids wouldn't send all their ships to one place, for pretty much precisely that reason. They always hold back, analyse the defenders, and then commit enough well adapted forces to handle them. What possible bait could the Culture offer that would persuade the Tyranids to attack?

Also, I will point out two additional factors. One, not sending organics to fight in no way makes you immune. The Tau have almost certainly tried that. And two, the Tyranids as a whole are smart. Terrifyingly so. If the Culture treats them like idiotic pests, the Culture will die.

Not using organics makes you immune to psychic attacks. It doesn't do anything else. Unfortunately, psychic attacks are one of the few things the Culture doesn't have an answer for apart from just ignoring it.

It depends on how far they can communicate and what they can sense. A small fleet investigating a juicy genestealer cult gets wiped in a matter of milliseconds by some unknown method.

Then what? Even a warp communication wouldn't get much past "we're under attack" before everything dies to CREWs. They won't even know they're facing laser beams. They're just there and then splinter fleet is suddenly disintegrating.

If a big fleet comes in, the whole fleet is dead before the back can see the front die (due to light lag). It's functionally the same thing, they just got rammed by a gridfire wall traveling faster than light. The ship doing that isn't even moving.

You might note that the Culture already knows of the Tyranid adaptability from genetic analysis so they'll take appropriate precautions to not overuse the same 'antibiotic'. Or use it quickly and powerfully enough that resistance can't be evolved.


And then there is that virtually everything the Culture has for weapons against Nids go past the point where mere physical material can resist. The Tyranids need to evolve a reality-altering warp field or they'll never stand a chance. And the Culture facing one of those (they know it's there coz they have warp activity scanners now) will back off and start taking it seriously. Probably start by dropping a nova bomb in its way.


If the Tyranids are smart, they already know something is killing them before any of their ships can do much more than send a distress signal. All of their ships in various systems are just simultaneously dying.

And a genestealer signal appears out of nowhere at great strength? They send a tiny scouting force and when it suffers the same fate, they'll know its a bait and just ignore it.

[etesp]

The Tyranids wouldn't send all their ships to one place, for pretty much precisely that reason. They always hold back, analyse the defenders, and then commit enough well adapted forces to handle them. What possible bait could the Culture offer that would persuade the Tyranids to attack?

The Tyranids won't initially have any clue that the Culture is setting a trap. Though smartnids won't throw everything in at once.

Also, I will point out two additional factors. One, not sending organics to fight in no way makes you immune. The Tau have almost certainly tried that. And two, the Tyranids as a whole are smart. Terrifyingly so. If the Culture treats them like idiotic pests, the Culture will die.

Tau robotics and Culture ships are so far apart it's not funny. Plasma weapons and fairly low level space stuff, against sitting half a dozen lightyears away and projecting potentially infinite raw energy with tiny delays. The non-bio thing will just massively reduce the impact of warp effects.

Barring extreme physics is utterly non-existent effects which could possibly happen with insane Tyranid concentrations (how to prevent: Kill before they reach those concentrations), there is little I see that they could do to actually kill the Culture. Perhaps I'm underestimating their adaptability, and they could metabolise gridfire, survive being shredded by displacers/effectors, handle being pulled into a black hole, resist CREWs and CAM warheads, not die to millions of gravities then negative gravities rapidly fluctuating, be able to out evolve the best nanoswarm the Culture can come up with, take FTL bombardments, and.. it goes on... but if they could do those things, they would not just be a huge threat to WH, they would've been impossible for any of the factions to significantly slow down, let alone kill several Hive fleets. Additionally, these weapons kill way, way, way to fast and completely for resistance to evolve, even if it was possible. The Culture's not stupid either, if one creature shows even the slightest sign of resisting a major weapon, they will annihilate it with everything they have. If they see the 'nids doing something really worrying like metabolising gridfire, they'll adopt the same tactics we use to stop microbes evolving resistance to antiboitics. They'll flood with multiple attacks each of which is more than enough to kill everything, evolving symaltanois resistance to a few dozen total destruction things.. yea. Ok, the Culture have to take them seriously if they have amazingly physics defying adaptability, but the moment they do it's over.

Edit: jseah ninja'd quite a lot of this.

Come to think of it, the tyranids and genestealers don't make sense. I mean, intelligent life is more likely to be able to resist assimilation than non-intelligent life (which basically don't stand a chance).

The tyranids render everything down to an organic goop which certainly isn't intelligent. So the intelligence of the thing they're eating doesn't matter.

Given that the tyranids aim to consume as much biomass as possible, genestealer cults really ought to not attract tyranid fleets the way they do. The Nids should prefer systems that have organic biospheres for them to eat (basically oxygen and carbon) and avoid those that could cause them trouble. Like those with higher technology. Of course, they could still nom IoM planets in a pinch but for the Nids' objectives of gathering biomass, they should go after the non-sentient inhabitants or at least low tech.

Hm, perhaps:
1. Genestealers go for the highest target available on a world, so that they can weaken planetary defenses/don't get stomped by whatever is the highest, and get the most useful genetic additions for the hive.
2. There are non-sentient genestealer cults on plants without sentient life, but these were not noticed by the IoM or others, because who bothers checking up on unoccupied worlds when there's a Tyranid fleet coming after inhabited ones.
3. The Tyranids like to kill off worlds which are a potential threat where possible, though it would make sense to go after weaker targets first (agriworlds, low tech worlds).

#2 makes this possible to do without the major moral issues. And is consistent afaik, 'nids not being able to find/eat worlds without sentient life would be really stupid for something as highly evolved.

[The Glyphstone]

I'll point out that inorganics are not immune to psychic attack, they're only immune to telepathic attack. Non-mental psychic attack vectors would function just fine.

As long as the Culture keeps whacking Tyranids in bite-size pieces, they'll win handily. This huge apocalyptic scenario was based on the premise that the Culture, exhibiting their typical (and typically justified) assumption of total superiority, would attempt to mass-exterminate the Tyranid species with a bug-light strategy without realizing just how many Tyranids they'd be drawing in by such a plan, and having no idea of the side effects that come with massive Tyranid density. If they're smart enough to not do this (and all that takes is realizing that the variable TOTAL QUANTITY OF TYRANIDS=UNKNOWN), it's a scenario that'll never materialize.

[etesp]

What's the maximum range of non-telepathic psychic attacks (which would be a non-zero threat to a Culture ship)? Considering the Tyranids are not known for extreme level psykers, they've just picked a few up from Eldar DNA, and their psykers have head exploding issues if they try to channel too much.

[The Glyphstone]

That depends on the strength of the psyker(s), and how many of them are working in concert.

I wasn't really talking about attacks against ships, anyways - I don't think even the Emperor wielded telekinesis at stellar distances. But, say, an inorganic drone can still be thrown around by telekinetic force if a psyker attacks it with such.