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2012-12-27, 05:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Throwing powerful tech to a species that couldn't natively produce it and in't even within sight of the theory behind it.
A very big deal in the Cultureverse, with its rigorously agreed treaties about how to ethically mentor and advance other species in a way that preserves their identity. Either a mentor species is being irresponsible and damaging, or a Lower Level Involved has managed to pull off some unexpected tech steals.
Less of an issue here, since there are no peers, no galactic stability, and a widespread emergency going on.Last edited by Selrahc; 2012-12-27 at 05:49 AM.
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2012-12-27, 11:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
SpoilerEpilogue (from both endings)
A cyberspace-level 7 historian examines records of the Second Great War and notes parallels between the Culture's final actions and those of the original Chaos. Indeed, depending on the definition, the current "Culture" behaves much like the prior Chaos did in the essence of the term.
True, the New Chaos is not divided and the gestalt feeds off raw soulpower instead of aspects, and the New Chaos is not structured off hostile power relationships. Culturally, New Chaos is nothing like the old.
But the actions taken to win that conflict could be said to have defeated the point, countless numbers of sentients were sacrificed and an impossible-to-estimate amount of potential culture was lost. The only thing that remains is the Culture.
The Culture survived... only by becoming its enemy.
Just as planned.
I like this alternate future mainly because I'd been saying from the start that Tzeentch was the only Chaos God theoretically capable of co-existing with the culture, and the narrative conspicuously doesn't mention how it fared in the final war...which means it could have faked its death and subsumed itself into the new way of things. Tzeentchian retirement, effectively, voluntarily Changing itself into a benign form so that it could secretly continue, and wait for even the Culture's reign to end.Last edited by The Glyphstone; 2012-12-27 at 11:40 AM.
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2012-12-27, 01:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
That was totally awesome and terrifying... a few questions though; what happened to the still-living Eldar gods, and what about that Necron time travel guy? Surely the introduction of 'traveling into the past, even if only for a short, temporary while' would have some effect?
A Mind that can talk to itself from the future, a la Sufficiently Advanced (a free roleplaying game set completely independent of either setting, but... interesting... see: http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/sufficiently-advanced or http://www.1km1kt.net/rpg/SA_web.pdf ) might be interesting, don't you think? Also, stable wormholes from one side of the galaxy to the other would probably be possible at some point in the tech timeline you mentioned... which would definitely be a big deal, yaknow? Those do exist in the canon 40k galaxy. But consider mining that PDF for tech ideas, maybe..
Also... you are either a dull enough soul that the Tau thing works, or you are a bright enough soul that the Ork / Tyranid fields can work. One or the other... they are mutually exclusive, I believe...Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-27 at 02:52 PM.
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2012-12-27, 02:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Kroot have a minimal instance of Chaos corruption and minimal psychic talent. While they aren't dim souls like the Tau, they also have no role in the actual running of the Tau empire and would be bad targets for divination efforts. Corrupting them is an awful proposition, because their culture is very opposed to the unpredictable nature of Chaos thanks to their focus on self-driven evolution and personal improvement. They can smell and taste Chaos taint, and they don't like it. The Vespid are a socially-oriented hive mind with minimal concept of individuality and might (maybe) be outright mind-controlled by the Tau. Chaos would have about as much luck corrupting the Tyranids. Demiurge are allied to the Empire, but have little direct investment in Tau society and would thus be a bad vector. Nicassar are very, very tranquil minds and are by far the most stable psykers around (you would be too if you needed to push your starships around with your mind for your entire life). Harder to corrupt than Eldar. Ji'atrix and Galgs are non-canon concept pieces, unless they've been mentioned again in a recent source I haven't read.
The only current corruption vector in Tau society that would make any difference at all are the Gue'vesa. Every other race is either very resistant to Chaos taint or so tangenital to the Empire's rule that they won't make any difference to begin with. The Sorceror is going to have a real uphill battle manipulating the Empire; the Etherials hold all the cards, and they're virtually impossible to corrupt. It may just be too late to take the Tau off the playing field; the best means would have been to wipe them out by force before they got involved with the Culture, but that may not be possible with Culture protection. Otherwise, his best bet is to destabilize the Empire with human agents, encouraging the Tau to crack down on their human populations and maybe alienate the Culture to some degree. It's not a total solution, but it might just mess things up enough to give him room to work on a more effective vector of targetting the Culture.Avatar by the wonderful SubLimePie. Former avatar by Andraste.
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2012-12-27, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Once this hypothetical version of The Culture figures out how to artificially create or induce either of those conditions, it should be relatively simple to just switch between them as desired.. and I didn't get the sense that they were supposed to be both at once. More "We have determined how to replicate the Tau's low warp presence. We have implemented this among all the citizens it could usefully protect, and with this added safety measure we can take more aggressive investigations into Warp-based sciences..." leading into "we have figured out how the Ork and Tyranid sub-nets work. As both of these species appear to be all but immune to Chaos infection, we have exchanged our previous Tau-based defense for this technique. Huh. It turns out this also gives us a ridiculously large Warp-power battery to draw on. I wonder what we could do with that?"
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2012-12-27, 03:00 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Well, if Chaos wants to deal with the Tau, now they have Culture backing, there's one obvious route that the sneakier elements of Chaos could should and probably would take.
Give the Tau rope. Put them in situations where they are forced by their own beliefs, morals and failings to do horrible things, such that the Culture will be forced to deal with them, turning the Culture from a problem to a solution.
Nudging the Tau in such a way that they become increasingly genocidal towards alien(or at least Human) life, only with the Culture-backed prowess to do something about it would be the obvious way. If the Tau suddenly start exterminatusing every human planet they can find using the advantages they have been given by the Culture, then I can't imagine the Culture will be able to just shrug its shoulders and write the situation off as a minor dissapointment.
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2012-12-27, 03:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
How do you influence the Tau to do something, though, as Chaos? I mean you could do something to the human population in their Empire, but that sort of thing is already being done by Chaos... can they really just up the instances of chaos contamination in a particular group? Isn't that more of a 'natural' thing? And if so, can they direct that in any meaningful way other than, 'open gates to the warp to let Daemons through'?
Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-27 at 03:32 PM.
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2012-12-27, 03:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
This. You can't influence the Tau leaders directly. The best you can do is try to agitate the Gue'vesa population and make life hard for the people in charge of running them. So, business as usual for Chaos. You can amp it up a little bit, focus some effort on it, but that's very likely to attract the Culture's attention (they're pretty good at finding Chaos Cults by this point) and that's going to totally backfire on Chaos, because there's little better at bringing people together than finding out that their enemy is trying to drive them apart.
Short of direct and total intervention by the Chaos Gods (which could basically do anything), the Tau are a very difficult nut to crack right now. They also aren't very important to this struggle in the long-run, barring what's already been done. At most, agitate things a bit to maybe sour relations to some degree, and focus on the Eldar, Necron and Imperium fronts where some sort of success might actually be achievable.Avatar by the wonderful SubLimePie. Former avatar by Andraste.
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2012-12-27, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Nah, it's simple. A few dedicated cults with doomsday scenarios, set up in such a way that they fail spectacularly but with horrendous collatoral damage, incidentally leaving behind enough evidence to set the Tau down a chain of reasoning that inevitably leads to "Humans are an innate threat to the Greater Good!" and the Tau will do all the work for you, even convincing themselves to do your work.
Chaos isn't about direct influence (not the parts involved in this idea, anyway), it's about you making what seems to be the correct and natural choice at every stage and them leaning back and cackling just as planned. It's a meme, but it's also legitimately how it works.
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2012-12-27, 06:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Tech priests can have True Faith. Just in their version of the Emperor instead. But their blessings of their machines do make a noticeable difference, particularly when they are fighting Chaos.
On the other hand data daemons are designed to attack machines, particularly ones made by tech priests. So you know it's like a parasite and it's host's relationship.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
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Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2012-12-27, 06:49 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
I dont think they have True Faith in the sense that we are using it... there are levels...
I think some scale would be...
Unprotective faith
General, slightly protective faith in the emperor (most astartes, and some techpriests are here)
The Miracle-Inducing Faith that Sororitas have, and makes them nigh-incorruptible. Minimum cutoff for 'True Faith'.
Grey Knight Faith, making them actually incorruptible
The faith of that one Grey Knight who seems to be utterly immune to the detrimental effects of the WarpLast edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-27 at 06:56 PM.
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2012-12-27, 07:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Fair enough but yes Tech Priests can reach Sororitas levels, it's just rare.
Even the basic faith normal people have can be harmful to deamons if they are relatively weak/isolated. For example Eisenhorn in Malleus used a basic prayer (amped with his psyker powers admittedly) to kill a daemonic crystal by blasting the volume of the prayer from the speakers of his ship (also the crystal was very sound based but you get the idea.)
Random thing, but Eldar fighting each other is one of the dumbest things in 40K. They more then anyone else cannot afford to waste lives and they are fully capable of just using normal diplomacy with each other to solve their differences. Plus they wouldn't have the inevitable misunderstandings that the Imperium has. Disagreements sure, but those should almost never turn to battles between Eldar (except for Rangers and Corsairs since they can lose their tempers easily.)Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
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Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2012-12-27, 07:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Except it is only certain versions of that True Faith that causes Miracles. Techpriests, who have a rationality-flavored version (that isn't necessarily true rationality, but has much of the trappings of it), don't cause Miracles, generally.
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2012-12-27, 08:08 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
From what I understand Tech-Priest Miracles are much more subtle than Sororitas Miracles. Generally they take the form of "Machine Spirits" pushing the limits of a device far beyond what they should be physically capable of. Kind of similar to Ork-Tech but Faith based rather than Waagh based.
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2012-12-27, 09:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Tau:
The basic Chaos plan is to work from Macragge's side. While it is true that influencing the Tau is very very hard (even planting Chaos cells in planets that they're about to conquer will get picked up by the Culture), Macragge is considerably easier.
So far, I haven't worked out the details but it should mostly involve making Macragge more... agitated at the Tau. So much so that any Tau attack results in a much larger retaliation than would normally be expected.
And again, this is win-win for Chaos of course. If the IoM win, the Tau are beaten back. If the Tau win, IoM forces are greatly reduced in the area, letting Chaos have a freer reign... which opens up the possibility for another plot.
The thing is that Culture presence in this area is very low, being still only three ships, soon to be four (+1 GCU), so Chaos has the opportunity to work shenanigans that wouldn't normally be possible otherwise. Even outright attacks.
It isn't a misunderstanding though and they aren't fighting yet. What is happening here is that unnamed Craftworld in contact with the Culture, being rushing (in Eldar terms) to implement the hyperspace drive and generally being friendly to the Culture, is having a major disagreement with Ulthwe and Alaitoc for being too open to accepting this foreign species' gifts and culture.
Well, too open for Eldar standards. The disagreement stems from a particular future vision that if this craftworld continues down the path of contact with the Culture, it eventually starts to drift culturally away from the Eldar mainstream (over about a thousand years).
On the other hand, due to the Chaos sorceror's influence on the future timelines and his earlier future-threat of attack, this craftworld is convinced that Chaos wants them to break away from the Culture and so is determined to do the exact opposite. Its arguments are not convincing to Ulthwe and Alaitoc.
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2012-12-27, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
It's rare but they do get miracles like machines suddenly repairing themselves spontaneously or operating on their own. It's mostly found in Techpriests who go beyond rational and are really fanatical about their faith.
You misunderstand. I wasn't talking about your story but about the fluff in 40K in general. Every race is supposed to be able to fight each other (+ themselves) and I think that Eldar fighting Eldar pretty much never makes sense.
Fighting mind you, not upset with and arguing. There is a world of difference between the two. What you have so far is really good.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
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Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2012-12-27, 11:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
The one thing to remember is that the Eldar are not united. Each Craftworld is out for itself and each has very different opinions on how to save the Eldar Race.
So when Biel-tan decides to murder some Imperials to retake a Maiden World, they're not going to stop just because Ulthwe says those Imperials are needed to stop Orks 100 years later. This does not mean that the conflicts will have the same intensity as other conflicts -- mainly because no Eldar wants to lose more of their own people than they absolutely have to.Lead Designer for Oracle Hunter GamesToday a Blog, Tomorrow a Business!
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2012-12-28, 02:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Lol, just thought of something. The Tyranid plan yeah? Chaos can do it just as well as the Culture can. Just have to get out before the Nids arrive.
Why hasn't Chaos Nid-bombed the IoM before now? =D
Also, if it has a chance of going badly for the Culture, it could be a viable Chaos plan even.
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2012-12-28, 02:54 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
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Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2012-12-28, 03:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-12-28, 03:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
What about using it against the Culture?
If they know that the Culture will intervene, it's another win-win for Chaos. If the Nid-magnet plan results in Nid extermination, Chaos wins. If it results in a headache for the Culture due to too big a Nid fleet... well, Chaos wins again.
And a key point is, unlike the Culture, Chaos has no qualms in sacrificing a solar system or two if it means more headaches for their enemies. After all, from future sight, they know the Culture can restore habitats from nothing at all, so it's about sacrificing some people who, on balance, aren't likely to end up under Chaos, versus pissing the IoM and Culture off (but how much worse can the diplomatic situation get anyway?) by making them fight another enemy Chaos wants to be rid off.
The only question is if the risk to the sorceror himself of backing a Genestealer infestation is worth the benefit.
Hell, at the rate this is going, I should start thinking about plans for the sorceror to involve some Dark Eldar. Can't be too hard to get the Culture pissed off at them too.
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2012-12-28, 04:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
The plan was to create tame Genestealers in massive numbers to create a giant beacon to attract the fleets right?
I don't know if that would work at all actually. Chaos certainly doesn't have the technical knowledge to do so. But the Hive Mind itself could likely see the modifications to the Genestealers and either just undo them, incorporate them into the Swarm, or just kill those changed. It's really really hard to hit Tyranids with biological weapons for exactly this reason. As far as I know only Nurgle can hit them with any sort of reliablity and he cheats.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
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Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2012-12-28, 04:42 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-12-28, 04:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
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Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2012-12-28, 05:12 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-12-28, 09:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
part 9.5 Dark Eldar
SpoilerWeek 1
The Other Eldar (as they have begun to be named by Culture citizens) have shown up again at our prescribed meeting solar system. IoM traffic has been lowered to nothing after rumours of the Other Eldar were spread around (with their permission).
This time, they offered to us a mercenary-like role, to which we politely declined. Additionally, the leader of the group that met us offered to lead us to Comorragh if we promised to back his attempt to overthrow his boss. This we also politely declined, although for different reasons which he then attempted to negotiate for.
We questioned him a little on the teleportation gates, to which he noted that the gates are no longer within technological understanding of the Eldar and that they lead directly into the Warp. Our suspicion that the gates require an Eldar to activate is correct as most of their technology is Warp based. The Eldar are a race of psychics (which we had substantial evidence for, but was mostly circumstantial) and both the normal Eldar and Other Eldar technology is based on that.
We agreed to back his leadership contest provided that he help us into the Webway through the webway gates (Eldar name for the teleportation gates), a sort of stabilized area of the Warp. Conditions in the Webway were asked about and he indicated that the Webway was unlike anything in space and that Eldar could indeed travel in it without much protective equipment. This complicates matters alot as this GCU is not capable of in-atmosphere movement. Additionally, it is also a moot point since this GCU will not fit through the gate.
We are debating courses of action. This includes building a dedicated drone or a sort of Limited Systems Unit for atmospheric work to serve as a base for Contact to work with these Other Eldar. In any case, while awaiting a GSV arrival to conduct more extensive operations, the Other Eldar have left and will return next week.Last edited by jseah; 2012-12-28 at 09:46 AM.
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2012-12-28, 12:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Fyi. Chaos doesn't have the knowledge in general to do crazy mad science biological plans... but there is one person aligned with chaos that does... Fabius Bile. But for major key players in Chaos to be drawn to meddle with things, they need a lure stronger than their pet projects...
Anyway, they can figure out peculiarlies of the Webway based on the designs of vehicles whose purpose it is to travel in the Webway, both Eldar and Dark Eldar. That should give them good ideas... the shape constraints for a given size, the focus on grav use, any peculiarities in the designs, etc. etc. Especially the Dark Eldar Raider and the Eldar Falcon (their transports), those can give a good idea of travel in the Webway...
Also, Eldar are able to make limited forms of webway gates, but those have to be near a place where the Webway already goes, and (presumably) near larger, more permanent gates.
http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/WraithgateLast edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-12-28 at 02:36 PM.
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2012-12-28, 07:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Aw I wanted to see a Mind get lobotomized for going into the webway.
Anyways the in-atmosphere shouldn't be a problem (not that the Culture could know that) as the Webway is like the warp in that some physical laws are just ignored.Spoiler: I'm a writer!Spoiler: Check out my fanfiction[URL="https://www.fanfiction.net/u/7493788/Forum-Explorer"here[/URL]
]Fate Stay Nano: Fate Stay Night x Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha
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Spoiler: Original FictionThe Lost Dragon: A story about a priest who finds a baby dragon in his church and decides to protect them.
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2012-12-28, 08:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
That wasn't likely to happen. A Culture-constructed gate would start off too small to admit much more than an apple. A Dark-Eldar led gate-exploration would have them know it leads into the warp and that gets alarm bells going off (which means scout probe first).
The only reasonable situation that leads to a Mind ending up in the webway without prior preparation is if the Eldar deliberately mislead them about it. But the Eldar don't talk about the webway.
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2012-12-28, 08:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: The Culture explores 40K II: Now With 100% more Fanfiction
Long term strategy proposal:
Get the IoM to sublime, leaving behind splinter groups.
The IoM is a huge liability to almost every plan the Culture has. And they really have a duty to ethically remove it from play. Introducing sublimation technology and removing them in that manner, seems like the most ethically sound method of doing so. Sublimation is basically heaven, there would be no megadeaths, and no big resource sink for the Culture to take care of. The IoM doesn't really offer much to an ally, now that all of its interesting technology and knowledge has been taken(and the artefacts would remain behind anyway)
Frankly, Sublimation would appeal to other factions too, without any particular social engineering. The Eldar especially, and perhaps the Necrons.Avatar by Simius