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  1. - Top - End - #31
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by icefractal View Post
    I don't see what the fuss is about. I mean, yes, that's a high initiative. So what? Honestly, a +6 or whatever you'd get just from having Improved Initiative would often be high enough to go first anyway; all this does is make that more consistent. And while it might seem "high for first level", that's an illusion - initiative doesn't scale by level.

    In actual experience, I'm currently in a game with a character that has +28 Initiative (IIRC). And it's not a significant factor in their power.


    However, this does demonstrate an important lesson - many people get paranoid about seeing "too high" numbers. So if you want to be good at something, get several factors that combine into awesomeness rather than a single big bonus. The actual effect will be the same, but people won't see double digits and claim you're "rollplaying".
    Fractal, the idea is that, a Wizard who wins initiative can win the combat in one round. A fighter cannot do the same.

    But for here, the idea is that his Wizard will be doing buffing (a lah Haste, Heroism, etc), so it shouldn't be too painful.

    The only reason I'm suggesting dropping the Initiative is because it bugs the DM.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    I told him I'm going to buff hard he told me that if I buff/debuff the encounter too hard the other players wont have fun if it is too easy. Also, "like if you have the perfect spell for a situation" then you will make the others feel useless.
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  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Huh. Well that sucks. But still, getting him involved in your spell choice could still help.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    I'd stick with the backstory and just play a bookish cleric with a trained hummingbird. (And ditch improved init)

    Your cleric could be godless and dedicated to uncovering the secret to divine magic, or you could mix in some paladinish obedience.

    I think some domain gave animal companion so that humingbird could be a real asset (and replaceble).

    Cleric are also high teir, but with it's spell list focused on buffs and heals, and the hummingbird not giving +init, you should put your friend more at ease while keeping your backstory and theme.

    (As long as you avoid going for another high op wierd build... but a cleric without martial aspect, especially if you don't pump your save DCs (not needed to play buffer, nobody resists buffs) and a non-combat focused tiny animal companion should make him quite happy and give you all the backstory authenticity you could ask for.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alaris View Post
    Fractal, the idea is that, a Wizard who wins initiative can win the combat in one round. A fighter cannot do the same.

    But for here, the idea is that his Wizard will be doing buffing (a lah Haste, Heroism, etc), so it shouldn't be too painful.

    The only reason I'm suggesting dropping the Initiative is because it bugs the DM.
    Actually, I think he might have a point there as well.

    I had some serious issues with a DM recently because he felt I was abusing skills, and I think a big chunk of it was because I got high bonuses.

    It didn't matter that the skills I was using was knowledge Arcana (to ID magic items) and gather information (to ask locals what problems they had). Big bonuses were applied in ways the DM was not familiar with, and he freaked out.

    If you build a big bonus, make sure you take the time to explain to the DM exactly how you plan to use it at character creation.
    Last edited by sdream; 2012-11-02 at 09:38 AM.

  5. - Top - End - #35

    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by RFLS View Post
    Stormwind harder.
    No, Becuase I enjoy playing a Incantrix myself, but he asked a question, and I answered. If you can't provide anything then be a fire elemental elsewhere.

  6. - Top - End - #36
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by silverwolfer View Post
    No, Becuase I enjoy playing a Incantrix myself, but he asked a question, and I answered. If you can't provide anything then be a fire elemental elsewhere.
    You did however acvuse the OP of 'rollplaying' just because he selected some strong and synergistic abilites. That's pretty much the core of Stormwind Fallacy. For all we know each of the choices might have 10 pages of background justification.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by LordBlades View Post
    You did however acvuse the OP of 'rollplaying' just because he selected some strong and synergistic abilites. That's pretty much the core of Stormwind Fallacy. For all we know each of the choices might have 10 pages of background justification.
    From the sound of it, they do.
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    If you still want to use the wizard idea, and be a bit BC/Buff friendly, I'd like to 2c my thoughts. Beguiler. It nets you a bit of skillmonkey and spells. Plus with what you have in your back story, it could easily adapt to what you have.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by eggs View Post
    The Elf Generalist+Hummingbird+Martial Wizard is a well known, and often used optimization trick. The only thing missing is a domain.
    It's also illegal.
    This has been pointed out ever since the first time this "combo" showed up on 339. It was in the first page, even. People simply ignore what's written because, hey, more plusses.
    Quote Originally Posted by dascarletm View Post
    I told him I'm going to buff hard he told me that if I buff/debuff the encounter too hard the other players wont have fun if it is too easy. Also, "like if you have the perfect spell for a situation" then you will make the others feel useless.
    Dude, I agree completely with your DM. Do you know what the other guys are playing?
    Last edited by ThiagoMartell; 2012-11-02 at 10:26 AM.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    The other players again are:
    Swashbuckler
    Sorcerer
    Fighter

    I don't know the exact build, but they are new to DnD. The sorcerer has invisibility as one of his second levels, and the DM said his spell choice isn't ideal for a standard sorcerer. He is going to let him change spells if it becomes a problem.

    I think I decided to:
    stick with a buffing wizard and to change the bonus on the bird to another familiar's that has a similar feel. I was going to go cleric originally, but I've always wanted an undead army cleric. Since the party is good, well that is right out less I want to be a jerk and hijack the alignment.

    Drop the elf wizard generalist ability since it is just superior to being a generalist? Maybe I'll keep it?

    The 3rd level substitution for Elf is also powerful I'm still thinking about that one.

    I'm not going to take many good prestige classes, maybe I'll take elven paragon since It loses a level of casting. Since the Idea that my elf is like a paragon of his families values, and thus was chosen to lead their house it would make sense.

    Any other thoughts?
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    If your character is bookish, then they should probably have Scribe Scroll.

    Also:

    Whether high initiative is powerful or not depends upon how the game is run.

    I've played in games where it was all important, second only to Spot.
    These were games where almost every combat was an ambush, and they usually devolved into rocket tag very quickly.

    But in the games I run, people often delay at first in order to get a clear picture of what's actually happing. This is due to the fog of war. Winning initiative only to be the first to wait is not useful, though you would probably be the first to react later.
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    If your character is bookish, then they should probably have Scribe Scroll.

    Also:

    Whether high initiative is powerful or not depends upon how the game is run.

    I've played in games where it was all important, second only to Spot.
    These were games where almost every combat was an ambush, and they usually devolved into rocket tag very quickly.

    But in the games I run, people often delay at first in order to get a clear picture of what's actually happing. This is due to the fog of war. Winning initiative only to be the first to wait is not useful, though you would probably be the first to react later.
    I have scribe scroll. Didn't put it in there since I didn't say I was taking the martial wizard variant.

    I like going first so I can throw up magical defences before the baddies can blow me and my teamates up.

    Been thinking about Cleric. It looks a lot less scary in terms of a buffer.
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by dascarletm View Post
    Anyway my other character I was going to write backstory for and make would be a paladin. I don't know how much I should optimize. It's hard not to when I know too much stuff that works well together. Any help with that? How do I return to that "new player" place?
    You know any options or combos that are interesting tricks, but not an effective use of feat slots / skill points / chosen race compared to the optimal choices?

  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    I am a firm believer that it's the players that break classes not classes that break classes.

    I am also a firm believe that it is the DMs job to build around the characters given.

    I wouldn't worry about characters you can or can't make, submit it to the dm, see if he allows it, if not, change what he says he doesn't allow and be on you way.

    I probably have showed 10 versions of my Goliath Cleric i am making for my friends session coming soon.
    Last edited by killem2; 2012-11-02 at 05:50 PM.
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  15. - Top - End - #45
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    DruidGuy

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by dascarletm View Post
    I have scribe scroll. Didn't put it in there since I didn't say I was taking the martial wizard variant.

    I like going first so I can throw up magical defences before the baddies can blow me and my teamates up.

    Been thinking about Cleric. It looks a lot less scary in terms of a buffer.
    If you really want to be a buffer, why not go specialist Abjurer and then take master specialist levels? The 10th level of master specialist is known to be pretty nuts for abjurer. You could also pick up some IotsV levels afterwards too. It gets you more buffs and also you can do some counterspelling which could help out a lot against enemy casters.

    Clerics are really insane buffers though. If there are particular spells you want, I bet you can pick it up in a domain. There is always DMM persist cheese that may or may not be allowed in. And they give healing and just "look like" support more.

    Your pick though, either works.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by Mishkov View Post
    If you really want to be a buffer, why not go specialist Abjurer and then take master specialist levels? The 10th level of master specialist is known to be pretty nuts for abjurer. You could also pick up some IotsV levels afterwards too. It gets you more buffs and also you can do some counterspelling which could help out a lot against enemy casters.

    Clerics are really insane buffers though. If there are particular spells you want, I bet you can pick it up in a domain. There is always DMM persist cheese that may or may not be allowed in. And they give healing and just "look like" support more.

    Your pick though, either works.
    DM calls IotSV "total cheese." Anything that reduces metamagic too will probably get the ban hammer. perhaps master specialist.
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Why the hell are people saying that this is overpowered? This isn't even particularly powerful. Maybe if it was ALSO AT THE SAME TIME a bloodline of fire early firecaster or using something to make insanely hard to save against glitterdusts and colour sprays... but being an elf who is QUICK OFF THE MARK isn't exactly ****ing breaking new ground, people... hell.. that's a staple of gorram TOLKIEN.

    Although Hummingbird doesn't work with Elven Generalist, btw. It's not an ability save or skill check or hitpoints, elven generalist specifically lists those as the things it doubles.


    But yeah, demographic mismatch.

    Given what the GM has said, and the way he will guide the other players to create characters, having max ranks in a skill will probably be seen as 'cheesy'.

    Be ready to become the pariah for doing things like casting Enlarge Person on the fighter and then pointing out that he gets an AoO if things rush past him, for feats like Combat Expertise to be touted as 'broken' because of the effect if a fighter wears full plate and uses a heavy shield and combat expertise to have more than 20 AC, for the level 10 party to be fighting MMI Orcs, and every major encounter to come with a script, macguffins, friendly npcs who do most of the heavy lifting(gandalf-style).


    If you want my advice, remove anything the DM thinks is 'cheesy' from your build. If you try to show him how they are not overpowered, likely he will think you are just defending your 'cheese'. I don't know this guy, and you do, but it's pretty surprising how rabidly some people will cling to obviously wrong stupid stuff in terms of DnD/other roleplaying and yet be perfectly reasonable about other stuff. From the way you're describing this situation, this guy has fixed ideas about cheese and munchkins etc and you're not going to change that while he is the DM. Maybe you could change it in a different game, but when he is in the drivers' seat, it's very unlikely.

    So i'd drop anything he has a problem with, maybe say that it's not broken but drop it regardless. Then use whatever he thinks is a-okay and still be just as if not more powerful than you were before. Finish his game.

    Then start your game. Have a campaign idea or whatever. Then actually run interesting combats that challenge the players and force them to use tactics. Don't ever run NPCs as anything other than the side-characters of the story with their own motivations, comparable/understandable power level to the PCs (no derp deus ex machina 10% of the time/can't fight off orcs 90% of the time crap that turns every quest into 'escort gandalf to the BBEG'). Tell an interesting tale with relatable bad guys, encourage players to use more than their character sheets to interact with the world, etc etc.

    And while doing so don't allow the current DM to control anyone's build choices to restrict what he sees as 'cheese'. Allow anyone to build what they want, and run the world as deadly enough that building sane characters rewards the players who do so.

    That's probably your best bet.

    EDIT: To clarify, remove anything he thinks of as cheese because in 100% of these situations I have been in, heard related, and seen happen, even if at the time the 'cheese-hating' DM/player seemed to agree that the feat/class/race/whatever wasn't overpowered, later there were problems and issues with the game, campaign, friendship that suspiciously coincided with continued remarks/problems with those mechanical choices and any further ones the player made - not to mention a world either tailored to shut down the character or kill them.
    Last edited by Rejakor; 2012-11-02 at 06:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    Why the hell are people saying that this is overpowered? This isn't even particularly powerful.
    Because the party is low tier and low OP, and the character is high tier and high OP.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    No he's not.

    High op is one of the things I listed.

    He is at best medium op.


    And he's focusing on BUFFING. Guess what BUFFING does - it raises people up tiers. That's kind of the point of BUFFING.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    I think Rejakor has the right idea. I'd take it one step further though - go core only, load up with buffs, and skip the more overpowered spells (PAO no, Enlarge Person yes). If the DM still complains, reroll, he doesn't want a wizard. A Bard would really help the party, skill monkey with healing and solid buffing.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    No he's not.

    High op is one of the things I listed.

    He is at best medium op.


    And he's focusing on BUFFING. Guess what BUFFING does - it raises people up tiers. That's kind of the point of BUFFING.
    There are two tier 5 characters in his party, and they are all new to the game. Just because you are buffing doesn't mean you aren't overpowering.

    For example: optimized dragonfire inspiration bard granting everyone +16d6 per hit. Suddenly everything hit dies, and the only way an opponent can challenge the party is by stopping them all before they act. But those party members may not be otherwise particularly powerful, so the dragon going first and pouring down metabreathed sonic dragonfire might completely destroy them.
    Last edited by Tvtyrant; 2012-11-02 at 07:32 PM.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by Tvtyrant View Post
    There are two tier 5 characters in his party, and they are all new to the game. Just because you are buffing doesn't mean you aren't overpowering.

    For example: optimized dragonfire inspiration bard granting everyone +16d6 per hit. Suddenly everything hit dies, and the only way an opponent can challenge the party is by stopping them all before they act. But those party members may not be otherwise particularly powerful, so the dragon going first and pouring down metabreathed sonic dragonfire might completely destroy them.
    That's one type of buff, taken to extremes.

    Not anywhere near the same as, say, a War Weaver Wizard.


    Also am I LITERALLY the only person who when faced with extreme offense of a dnd party just ADDED MORE ENEMIES? Like, seriously guys. They don't need to be ****ing twinked dragons. You can just, y'know, HAVE SOME MORE ORCS. Or ogres. Or gray renders. Or whatever the party is fighting. Or hell, mix it up. Why not a gray render AND a lava elemental. Name ANY party of ANY level, and I will spin a random fight off the top of my head and it will be challenging but not insta-lethal.

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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    There are a number of issues here. The one being discussed is party balance.
    The newbies have brought along their BMX bandits, and the experienced player has brought along an Angel Summoner.
    p = 4
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    Also am I LITERALLY the only person who when faced with extreme offense of a dnd party just ADDED MORE ENEMIES? Like, seriously guys. They don't need to be ****ing twinked dragons. You can just, y'know, HAVE SOME MORE ORCS. Or ogres. Or gray renders. Or whatever the party is fighting. Or hell, mix it up. Why not a gray render AND a lava elemental. Name ANY party of ANY level, and I will spin a random fight off the top of my head and it will be challenging but not insta-lethal.
    Devil's advocate here: how about level 18 mailman sorcerer with Fighter 18 using Monkey Grip to wield a large fullblade and Monk 18 using a quarterstaff, along with Scout 3/Ranger 15 with Swift Hunter, travel devotion etc, and good favored enemies?

    Or, more to the point, how about the difficulty of combining such an encounter, taken in isolation, with a planned-out storyline? It's not impossible, but it's not trivial either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    There are a number of issues here. The one being discussed is party balance.
    The newbies have brought along their BMX bandits, and the experienced player has brought along an Angel Summoner.
    Actually, it's more like a party of BMX Bandits with one guy in the background giving them the power to do everything.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Augmental View Post
    Actually, it's more like a party of BMX Bandits with one guy in the background giving them the power to do everything.
    For example, the power to do amazing jumps at low speed?
    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    That's RAW for you; 100% Rules-Legal, 110% silly.
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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Paladin: Optimization 101:

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    Last edited by toapat; 2012-11-02 at 10:06 PM.


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    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Interesting. Seeing as I'm still digging buffing, I'm going to either switch to cleric (which I'd rather not do since my elf has a good backstory that requires him to be a wizard and I worked on most of the week) or just tone down the wizard. I'll just not "cheese" as he puts it because well apparently I steal the spotlight too much.

    Personally I don't ever think I have every powerful character I've ever made was focused on making the party powerful. First character wizard noone knew what we were doing I took horrible prestige classes and blasted poorly. I was a sidenote character in that story.

    Second PC with him was multiple characters that came in as one shot guys since i lived away from him.

    Third I was an artificer and all i did was make items for everyone and some flintlocks for myself to shoot.

    I digress, I spose I just needed that off my chest, sorry.

    anyway. I am also the guy that "scours all the books to make broken super OP characters." Like the time we played and epic campaign and I used a rod to get 2 9th levels off in a round, or the time I played a standard fighter that happened to have good synergy for taking out orcs in our orc fighting campaign. You know because dipping classes and keeping your cha at 10-12 is being a munchkin.


    bah. I love the guy but he's making me reconsider playing. I've been wanting to get into a DnD game for months picking class features and stuff i thought would be cool and relatable.

    I'll save the optimization for more experienced of a group.
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  29. - Top - End - #59
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    killem2's Avatar

    Join Date
    Nov 2011

    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by Rejakor View Post
    That's one type of buff, taken to extremes.

    Not anywhere near the same as, say, a War Weaver Wizard.


    Also am I LITERALLY the only person who when faced with extreme offense of a dnd party just ADDED MORE ENEMIES? Like, seriously guys. They don't need to be ****ing twinked dragons. You can just, y'know, HAVE SOME MORE ORCS. Or ogres. Or gray renders. Or whatever the party is fighting. Or hell, mix it up. Why not a gray render AND a lava elemental. Name ANY party of ANY level, and I will spin a random fight off the top of my head and it will be challenging but not insta-lethal.
    You are not alone. I love throwing surprises at my PCs :)
    The Way we do Level Adjustments
    Looking for a fantastic Tavern Game? Dragon's Tantrum is what you need.

    78% of DM's started their first campaign in a tavern. If you're one of the 22% that didn't, copy and paste this into your signature.
    The PCs started as part of a murder mystery. Some played close comrades with the victim, some were framed for the crime.

  30. - Top - End - #60
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Biffoniacus_Furiou's Avatar

    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Harrisonville, MO

    Default Re: Don't know what to do about my "new" DM

    Quote Originally Posted by toapat View Post
    Paladin: Optimization 101:
    *stuff*
    I'm going to disagree.

    Cloistered Cleric 1/ Paladin 19+
    Inquisition domain, Knowledge Devotion, Law Devotion
    Divine Counterspell ACF (CM) for Paladin, it's so good but it's Cha-based so Serenity is not as important as you would think.
    Get Practiced Spellcaster for one of those two classes, Divine Defiance (FC2), and whatever other feats you want. I'd prefer Power Attack and maybe Extra Smiting (unless you can get the per-day limit houseruled to per-encounter) with the Charging Smite ACF in PH2, which is especially good with (Wand of) Rhino's Rush (in a wand chamber of course).
    The Harmonious Knight sub levels are also quite useful, especially since your counterspell tricks don't interrupt your music, and especially especially if you can replace its Inspire Courage with Haunting Melody in Dragon Magic.

    The counterspell tricks come online at level 6, when you get Divine Defiance. You can spend a turn attempt to counterspell as an immediate action, and use Divine Counterspell for that counterspell attempt. That makes a dispel check at 1d20+2+character level, plus any bonus to your effective turn undead level such as from an Ephod of Authority. There's no way to increase your daily Divine Counterspell uses other than increasing your Cha score, but you can use extra turn attempts to power Law Devotion so Night Sticks are highly recommended.

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