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    Default Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Hybrid Animal Creation


    The numerous Monster Manuals and other supplements provide us with creatures supposed to have been created by insane wizards. The owlbear is the best-known instance of such a creation. And if the owlbear and the duckbunny can be created from magical experimentation, it doesn't seem unreasonable to consider other creatures, e.g. the pegasus, as the results of similar experiments.

    The following system aims to provide tools for the players wanting to play the role of a mad wizard trying to conceive a penguinlion, a ducksnake, or whatever combination you can imagine.

    Considerations
    In the following, an 'animal' is a creature either of the Animal type or of the Vermin type.
    The resulting creature will not be under the control of its creator.
    Magical experimentation on animals may or may not be a violation of a druid's code of conduct. This depends on the DM's judgment, and on the method you use to make your experiments.
    Only a spellcaster with a caster level of 3 or higher has the required expertise to make such experiments.

    Step one : The subjects

    In order to create a hybrid, you will need a laboratory, similar to that used for the creation of magic items. You will also need one primary animal, and one or more other animals, the secondary animals. Only the primary animal will be modified; the fate of the secondary animals depends on your methods (see Step three).
    You need to have the animals you wish to use at your disposal. This means they must be restrained or caged near your laboratory. You must be able to study them closely
    for the duration of the experiments.

    Step two : The design

    Once you have chosen your subjects, you have to decide what features of the secondary animals will be given to the primary animal. Those features can be ability scores, movement types, movement speeds, natural armor, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, extraordinary abilities and cosmetic traits.

    For ability scores, movement speeds, natural armor and racial skill bonuses, you decide the amount by which you want to improve the primary animal (but see Restrictions, below).
    You can choose to add any extraordinary ability or natural weapon that a secondary creature possesses (but see Restrictions, below).
    You can add a movement type to your primary creature, in which case it gains the associated movement speed and, if applicable, maneuverability.
    If your secondary animals are larger or smaller than your primary animal, the physical ability scores, natural armor and natural attack damage should be adjusted using the tables of the page 291 of the Monster Manual, as if the secondary animals were the same size as the base animal.
    Finally, hybrid animals are usually sterile, but you can choose to make yours able to procreate with others of its kind and / or other members of the base animal's race, in which case the offspring will always be a creature of the hybrid race. Your hybrid has the gender of the primary animal used in its creation.

    Restrictions :

    You cannot grant an extraordinary ability or movement type that no secondary animal possesses, neither can you grant an ability score adjustment, racial skill bonus, movement speed bonus or natural armor adjustment that would put the creature's score above that of all the secondary creatures.
    Attacks can be stacked : you can give two claw attacks to a creature that already has two claw attacks of its own. Depending on your choices, your creature may have additional limbs and / or heads.

    Step three : Pull the lever

    You must first decide one of two methods for your experiments.
    The first method involves physically removing the needed parts from the secondary animals, and grafting them on the primary animal. This implies the death of all the secondary animals. Using this method is an evil act and a violation of a druid's code of conduct.
    The second method uses magic to reproduce the parts from close observation, and to adapt them to the primary animal. Using this method costs more money.

    The outcome of your tinkering with the natural forces is determined by a Spellcraft check. Its base DC will be given by the following :

    Spellcraft DC = Creature's HD + (number of secondary animals involved) *10 + other modifiers

    The creature's HD is that of the primary animal.

    {table=head]
    Ability granted
    |
    DC modifier

    Ability score adjustment|+2 / point added
    Movement type|+10
    Movement speed|+2 / 5 ft added
    Natural armor|+2 / point added
    Racial skill bonuses|+1 / 2 points added
    Extraordinary ability|+10
    Natural attack|+6
    Able to procreate|+5
    [/table]

    In case of success, the primary animal's type changes to Magical Beast. It acquires the Augmented Animal subtype. If you used the first method, the secondary animals all die.
    In case of failure, if you used the first method, all of the animals die. If you used the second method, they are unharmed.

    If the creature is fertile, its offspring do not acquire the Augmented Animal subtype, and thus will probably be more powerful than their parent, thanks to higher Hit Dice and Base Attack Bonus.

    The following table presents the cost of creation depending on the complexity of the operations :

    {table=head]
    DC
    |
    GP cost
    |
    Experience cost

    Under 20|25 GP * DC|2 XP * DC
    21-24|50 GP * DC|4 XP * DC
    25-29|100 GP * DC|8 XP * DC
    30-39|200 GP * DC|16 XP * DC
    40-49|300 GP * DC|24 XP * DC
    [/table]

    In addition, if you use the second, less bloody method, the GP cost is increased by 20%.

    The process takes 1 day for each 300 GP it costs, rounded up.

    Example : The Bearowl, a more useful owlbear.
    Spoiler
    Show

    Let's take a brown bear as our primary animal, and an owl as the only secondary animal.
    Since the brown bear is Large, we need the stats of an owl advanced to Large size.
    A Large owl would have a Strength of 20, a Dexterity of 11 and a Constitution of 16, a natural armor score of +4, and two talons attacks dealing 2d6 damage each. Everything else is like the standard owl.


    For our first enhancement, we could give it the flight of the owl : 40 ft, average maneuverability. Then we could give it all of the owl's racial bonus on Listen checks (+8). We decide not to bother about looks or fertility.
    Because the physical ability scores of the Large owl are lower than that of the brown bear, we cannot advance those.

    The Spellcraft DC is thus 6 (for the bear's 6 hit dice) + 10 (one secondary animal) + 10 (for the movement type added) +4 (for the +8 to Listen) = 30.
    The creation costs 6000 GP, 480 XP, and takes 20 days.

    Bearowl

    Large Magical Beast (Augmented Animal)
    Hit Dice: 6d8+24 (51 hp)
    Initiative: +1
    Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
    Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10,
    flat-footed 14
    Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+18
    Attack: Claw +11 melee (1d8+8)
    Full Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d8+8) and bite +6 melee (2d6+4)
    Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks: Improved grab
    Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
    Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
    Abilities: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
    Skills: Listen +12, Spot +7, Swim +12
    Feats: Endurance, Run, Track

    Combat
    A bearowl attacks mainly by tearing at opponents with its claws.
    Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a bearowl must hit
    with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free
    action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
    Skills: A bearowl has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks and a +4 racial bonus on Listen checks.


    Afterthoughts : The cost increases are too brutal (30 instead of 29 more than doubles the cost). I'm considering the following table instead :

    {table=head]
    DC
    |
    GP cost

    Under 12|25 GP * DC
    13-20|300 GP + 100 GP * (DC-12)
    21-24|1100 GP + 200 GP * (DC-20)
    25-29|1900 GP + 300 GP * (DC-24)
    30-39|3400 GP + 400 GP * (DC-29)
    40-49|7400 GP + 500 GP * (DC-39)
    [/table]

    This table is more complex, but makes for acceptable prices at low DCs, doesn't increase the price dramatically when the DC goes from 29 to 30, and increases in price faster than a linear progression. It is, however, more complicated.

    I don't want to use a linear progression (x*DC) because I believe the costs would be too high for low-level characters creating ducksnakes, and too low for high-level characters able to create flying hybrids of tyrannosaurus rex and octopi.

    I will soon start working on a Prestige Class specialized in magical crossbreeding. It would grant control of the creatures to their creator. Once again, suggestions are welcome.
    Last edited by Keynub; 2012-11-11 at 10:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    This has already been done, and quite well by Encyclopedia Arcane: Magical Crossbreeding.
    It's also not limited solely to Animals
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    i like what you are doing with this, it's really cool, a wizard who focused in spellcraft could start merging animals as he pleases, and create the dreaded bunnywolf, ferocious penguinlion, and the terrible duck snake

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    I happen to like this a lot, Keynub. I'll set some time aside for a more detailed examination of your write-up and see if anything strikes me as important to add, but I think it's certainly a great idea.


    Oh, and Anecron? I'm not sure you meant to seem disdainful of Keynub's work, but that's how your post seemed to me.

    It might also be worth noting in the future that the Encyclopedia X: Y books are from Mongoose Publishing, a 3rd party source of frequently-argued balance.
    Last edited by Lyndworm; 2012-11-08 at 08:12 PM.
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by zetsu1919 View Post
    i like what you are doing with this, it's really cool, a wizard who focused in spellcraft could start merging animals as he pleases, and create the dreaded bunnywolf, ferocious penguinlion, and the terrible duck snake
    I'd be more terrified of the llamacobra. So much spittle....

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Hah. Lovely. Though the stats don't add up with my attempts at creating Octocrows, Batsquids and Colibripedes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    those name fusions are wonderful, llamacobra sounds so natural, octocrow is awesome sounding, but i can't figure out what colibrepede is besides a centipede.

    on the gold costs, i would make it something really high, like 500*DC or something, cause building animal fusions should not be a cheap process

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Look here, and be enlightened.

    It's a short-lived project I had. I might take it up again.
    "The Drowned Man is not a God. He is from the North, and the North is too cold for gods."

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    cool project, would be cool if you continued it. i also noticed you are participating in the Nanowrimo as well, so that's cool

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
    This has already been done, and quite well by Encyclopedia Arcane: Magical Crossbreeding.
    It's also not limited solely to Animals
    Thanks for the link, Necron. I wasn't aware of its existence and it seems to be near what I wanted to create, albeit a little too complex for my tastes.
    And since it's not limited to animals, there isn't anything to stop them from crossing century worms and gelatinous cubes, and this is a visual I'm not ready for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I happen to like this a lot, Keynub. I'll set some time aside for a more detailed examination of your write-up and see if anything strikes me as important to add, but I think it's certainly a great idea.
    I would appreciate that very much, thank you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    Oh, and Anecron? I'm not sure you meant to seem disdainful of Keynub's work, but that's how your post seemed to me.
    Don't worry about it, I'm sure he only meant to share relevant information with us.

    **Compliments and yays**
    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Look here, and be enlightened.
    It's a short-lived project I had. I might take it up again.
    I don't know if you were talking to me in particular, but it isn't really what I'm aiming for. My goal is to create a system that allows player characters to create their own hybrids. But, hey! Starsnail! (Uck.)

    Quote Originally Posted by zetsu1919 View Post
    on the gold costs, i would make it something really high, like 500*DC or something, cause building animal fusions should not be a cheap process
    That would make a cost of 15 000 GP for our flying bear with a more acute hearing. Considering that it isn't controlled or anything by the creator, I find this a little too much, mechanic-wise. If there's an associated XP cost, it would be more expensive than a flesh golem, which you can control.
    And creating a duckbunny... it definitely shouldn't cost more than 5000 GP. I don't think a linear progression of the cost is the way to go here.

    Does anyone know of official stats for bunnies or ducks anywhere?

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    the reason for the high cost is because you are essentially making a new species, and that doesn't seem like something that would be easy to do... but you're right, that's a bit much, are you thinking of making this like a crafting feat or just a feature of the spellcraft skill?

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Sorry if I came off harsh or being an A**hole. I really was just trying to point out a more comprehensively done system.
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    I don't know if you were talking to me in particular, but it isn't really what I'm aiming for. My goal is to create a system that allows player characters to create their own hybrids. But, hey! Starsnail! (Uck.)

    Ah, sorry, no. I meant the person who was asking about the Octocrow and my other hybrids. If that would have been to you, it would have been incredibly condescending, I realize now, and I apologize for that.
    "The Drowned Man is not a God. He is from the North, and the North is too cold for gods."

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I want more mwa-ha-haaa and much less boo-hoo-hoo.

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Anecronwashere View Post
    Sorry if I came off harsh or being an A**hole. I really was just trying to point out a more comprehensively done system.
    No need to apologize, really : the information was appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eldan View Post
    Ah, sorry, no. I meant the person who was asking about the Octocrow and my other hybrids. If that would have been to you, it would have been incredibly condescending, I realize now, and I apologize for that.
    Once again, no need to apologize : I only wanted to clarify my intent, just in case we didn't understand each other.
    I actually like your project quite a bit.

    Quote Originally Posted by zetsu1919 View Post
    the reason for the high cost is because you are essentially making a new species, and that doesn't seem like something that would be easy to do... but you're right, that's a bit much, are you thinking of making this like a crafting feat or just a feature of the spellcraft skill?
    I'm afraid no one would ever take that feat. It would be very sub-optimal, since you have no control over your creature. So, I'm thinking no feat required.
    Last edited by Keynub; 2012-11-10 at 08:51 AM.

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    I would appreciate that very much, thank you.
    No problem. I really like what you've done here, so please know that I mean no offense with any of my criticisms. If I come across as harsh, it's only because I'm a naturally unlikable person and I've become somewhat passionate about this concept.

    Comments inside:
    Spoiler
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Considerations
    The resulting creature will not be under the control of its creator.
    For obvious reasons, magical experimentation on animals is a violation of a druid's code of conduct.
    The first part I understand, though at the end of this post I do voice an opinion on it. The second part perplexes me, however.

    Although I can see where many Druids would find the practice distasteful, immoral, or downright unnatural, I think that a select few would embrace it. Creating creatures better suited to a rapidly-changing environment, or better arming them against the threats of man, or even just plain warping animals to better suit the Druid's needs... These things sound very much like something a Chaotic or Evil Druid would do.

    In standard 3.5, Druids only fall when they cease to revere nature, change to a non-Neutral alignment, or teach Druidic to a non-Druid. I don't see where hybridizing in this way necessarily equates a cessation of reverence. I do see, however, where that might be a matter of opinion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Step one : The subjects

    In order to create a hybrid, you need the animals you wish to modify at your disposal. You will need one primary animal, and one or more other animals, the secondary animals.
    This makes sense to me at first glance, but I think it would be helpful to better define "at your disposal." Must the animals be Animals, or can Vermin be used, as well (such as MM4's howler wasps, which are Int 3-6 Aberrations stated to have been created by a Wizard from "insect and mammal")? Must you have the Animals near you during the entire ritual? I assume so, but how near do they need to be? Can they be dead, or must they be alive? If dead, how much of the Animal do you need? Mostly whole, as a raise dead spell, only the anatomy you wish to "stitch" together, or will a few tufts of fur work?

    Although this seems like kind of a pedantic series of questions, I've found that working these thins out ahead of time can save a lot of headaches.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Step two : The design

    Once you have chosen your subjects, you have to decide what features of the secondary animals will be given to the primary animal. Those features can be ability scores, movement types, movement speeds, natural armor, natural weapons, racial skill bonuses, extraordinary abilities and cosmetic traits.
    Mechanically, this seems sound. It seems to imply that the secondary creatures are unaffected by this process, while the primary creature reaps all the benefits. Is this what you intended? It's fine to do that, it just might be worth spelling out a bit more clearly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    For ability scores, movement speeds, natural armor and racial skill bonuses, you decide the amount by which you want to improve the primary animal (but see Restrictions, below).
    You can choose to add any extraordinary ability or natural weapon that a secondary creature possesses (but see Restrictions, below).
    You can add a movement type to your primary creature, in which case it gains the associated movement speed and, if applicable, maneuverability.
    If your secondary animals are larger or smaller than your primary animal, the physical ability scores, natural armor and natural attack damage should be adjusted using the tables of the page 291 of the Monster Manual, as if the secondary animals were the same size as the base animal.
    Finally, hybrid animals are usually sterile, but you can choose to make yours able to procreate with others of its kind and / or other members of the base animal's race, in which case the offspring will always be a creature of the hybrid race. Your hybrid has the gender of the primary animal used in its creation.
    This all sounds good to me.

    On a related note, I've just realized that the (SRD) owlbear actually has lower Strength and Dexterity scores than a brown bear, but a higher Constitution. Weird.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Restrictions :

    You cannot grant an extraordinary ability or movement type that no secondary animal possesses, neither can you grant an ability score adjustment, racial skill bonus, movement speed bonus or natural armor adjustment that would put the creature's score above that of all the secondary creatures.
    Your creature cannot have more than one head, and thus can only have one bite attack. The other attacks, however, can be stacked : you can give two claw attacks to a creature that already has two claw attacks of its own.
    I understand the first section, and I think it makes perfect sense. The second part, though, strikes me as somewhat odd. If I understand it right, you can grant multiple claw attacks (like a girallon) but not multiple bite attacks (like a chimera or hydra). It seems a weird distinction to make, is all, given the prevalence of multi-headed monsters in lore. I suppose you can sort of get around this with the Multi-Headed template (from Savage Species), but that book is technically 3.0 and it might mess with the DC and/or pricing in a weird way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Step three : Pull the lever

    The outcome of your tinkering with the natural forces is determined by a Spellcraft check. Its base DC will be given by the following :

    Spellcraft DC = Creature's HD + (number of secondary animals involved) *10 + other modifiers

    The creature's HD is that of the primary animal.

    {table=head]
    Ability granted
    |
    DC modifier

    Ability score adjustment|+2 / point added
    Movement type|+10
    Movement speed|+2 / 5 ft added
    Natural armor|+2 / point added
    Racial skill bonuses|+1 / 2 points added
    Extraordinary ability|+10
    Natural attack|+6
    Able to procreate|+5
    [/table]
    This all seems to make sense, and is a good baseline. The DC to add additional secondary animals seems a little steep though; I'd think that most of the DC increase from additional beasties would come from actually using the beasties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    In case of success, the primary animal's type changes to Magical Beast. It acquires the Augmented Animal subtype. The secondary animals die.
    If the creature is fertile, its offspring do not acquire the Augmented Animal subtype, and thus will probably be more powerful than their parent, thanks to higher Hit Dice and Base Attack Bonus.

    In case of failure, all of the animals die.
    I... missed some of this on my last read-through. Specifically, all of the animal-death. If you leave that part in, it's very likely that I will only ever use this system for Evil-aligned characters (or change it for my use). Also, I can now totally see why Druids can't use this system, though I'm still thinking that Evil Druids might not have a problem with sacrificing the weak to make the strong stronger.

    Other than the moral quandaries, that all looks good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    The following table presents the cost of creation depending on the complexity of the operations :

    {table=head]
    DC
    |
    GP cost
    |
    Experience cost

    Under 20|25 GP * DC|2 XP * DC
    21-24|50 GP * DC|4 XP * DC
    25-29|100 GP * DC|8 XP * DC
    30-39|200 GP * DC|16 XP * DC
    40-49|300 GP * DC|24 XP * DC
    [/table]

    The process takes 1 day for each 300 GP it costs, rounded up.
    This seems decent, to me (though I have conceptual problems with expending XP for any reason, your pricing doesn't seem out of line with existing rules).

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Example : The Bearowl, a more useful owlbear.
    Spoiler
    Show

    So let's take a brown bear as our primary animal, and an owl as the only secondary animal.
    Since the brown bear is Large, we need the stats of an owl advanced to Large size.
    A Large owl would have a Strength of 20, a Dexterity of 11 and a Constitution of 16, a natural armor score of +4, and two talons attacks dealing 2d6 damage each. Everything else is like the standard owl.


    For our first enhancement, we could give it the flight of the owl : 40 ft, average maneuverability. Then we could give it all of the owl's racial bonus on Listen checks (+8). We decide not to bother about looks or fertility.
    Because the physical ability scores of the Large owl are lower than that of the brown bear, we cannot advance those.

    The Spellcraft DC is thus 6 (for the bear's 6 hit dice) + 10 (one secondary animal) + 10 (for the movement type added) +4 (for the +8 to Listen) = 30.
    The creation costs 6000 GP, 480 XP, and takes 20 days.

    Bearowl

    Large Animal
    Hit Dice: 6d10+24 (57 hp)
    Initiative: +1
    Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares), fly 40 ft. (average)
    Armor Class: 15 (–1 size, +1 Dex, +5 natural), touch 10,
    flat-footed 14
    Base Attack/Grapple: +6/+18
    Attack: Claw +11 melee (1d8+8)
    Full Attack: 2 claws +11 melee (1d8+8) and bite +6 melee (2d6+4)
    Space/Reach: 10 ft./5 ft.
    Special Attacks: Improved grab
    Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
    Saves: Fort +9, Ref +6, Will +3
    Abilities: Str 27, Dex 13, Con 19, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 6
    Skills: Listen +12, Spot +7, Swim +12
    Feats: Endurance, Run, Track

    Combat
    A bearowl attacks mainly by tearing at opponents with its claws.
    Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a brown bear must hit
    with a claw attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free
    action without provoking an attack of opportunity.
    Skills: A bearowl has a +4 racial bonus on Swim checks and a +4 racial bonus on Listen checks.
    Excellent. That all seems to check out.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Afterthoughts : The cost increases are too brutal (30 instead of 29 more than doubles the cost). I'm considering the following table instead :

    {table=head]
    DC
    |
    GP cost
    |
    Experience cost

    Under 12|25 GP * DC|2 XP * DC
    13-20|100 GP * (DC-12)|4 XP * (DC-12)
    21-24|200 GP * (DC-20)|8 XP * (DC-20)
    25-29|300 GP * (DC-24)|16 XP * (DC-24)
    30-39|400 GP * (DC-29)|24 XP * (DC-29)
    40-49|500 GP * (DC-39)|32 XP * (DC-39)
    [/table]

    The indicated prices would be cumulative. For instance, if the Spellcraft DC is 22, the GP cost would be (2*200) + (8*100) + (12*25) = 1500 GP.
    The main problem of this table is the increasing complexity of the calculations.
    I don't want to use a linear progression (x*DC) because I believe the costs would be too high for low-level characters creating ducksnakes, and too low for high-level characters able to create flying hybrids of tyrannosaurus rex and octopi.
    Not a bad idea, but, like you said, that seems a bit too complicated for my liking. Also, I think your math is off. Your example DC 22 creature should cost 1750gp to create. It looks like you multiplied the DC -10 by 25 instead of the whole DC for the last equation.

    If you were wondering, the pricing for your bearowl would be (1 x 400) + (6 x 300) + (10 x 200) + (18 x 100) + (30 x 25) gold and (1 x 24) + (6 x 16) + (10 x 8) + (18 x 4) + (30 x 2) experience. That's 6,750p and 332xp, compared to the old 6,000gp and 480xp.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Does anyone know of official stats for bunnies or ducks anywhere?
    I'm almost certain that official rules for such things never existed in 3.X. I've worked up some homebrew stats for both ducks and rabbits, though, if you're interested. (Also swans/geese, dire swans/geese, and dire hares, but that's not totally relevant.)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by zetsu1919 View Post
    are you thinking of making this like a crafting feat or just a feature of the spellcraft skill?
    I'm afraid no one would ever take that feat. It would be very sub-optimal, since you have no control over your creature. So, I'm thinking no feat required.
    I'd suggest that this involve some form of resource investment, be it a skilltrick, spell, feat, or even Prestige Class. Allowing anyone with ranks in Spellcraft to do it just doesn't feel right to me.

    Also, maybe a feat or PrC could give you limited control over your creations? It seems like a neat idea (to me).
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    This makes sense to me at first glance, but I think it would be helpful to better define "at your disposal." Must the animals be Animals, or can Vermin be used, as well (such as MM4's howler wasps, which are Int 3-6 Aberrations stated to have been created by a Wizard from "insect and mammal")? Must you have the Animals near you during the entire ritual? I assume so, but how near do they need to be? Can they be dead, or must they be alive? If dead, how much of the Animal do you need? Mostly whole, as a raise dead spell, only the anatomy you wish to "stitch" together, or will a few tufts of fur work?
    Those are interesting questions. I didn't even think about vermins; they are a welcome addition.
    I was thinking only whole, living animals, which should be caged or magically restrained in or near the place where you make your experiments.
    I will clarify in the original post.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    Mechanically, this seems sound. It seems to imply that the secondary creatures are unaffected by this process, while the primary creature reaps all the benefits. Is this what you intended? It's fine to do that, it just might be worth spelling out a bit more clearly.
    Not quite... unaffected. Read the fine print.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I understand the first section, and I think it makes perfect sense. The second part, though, strikes me as somewhat odd. If I understand it right, you can grant multiple claw attacks (like a girallon) but not multiple bite attacks (like a chimera or hydra). It seems a weird distinction to make, is all, given the prevalence of multi-headed monsters in lore. I suppose you can sort of get around this with the Multi-Headed template (from Savage Species), but that book is technically 3.0 and it might mess with the DC and/or pricing in a weird way.
    Indeed. My reasons for this distinction was, actually, that it would raise even more questions, for example : one brain or several? Are there several distinct consciousnesses? Which one prevails : is the creature scared of combat, like its hen head, or is it fierce and territorial, like its wolverine head? Do they each control different limbs? If so, which ones?
    Yeah, forget that. I'll lift the restriction; it would be sad to waste the opportunity to say "Look behind you! A three-headed monkey!".

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    This all seems to make sense, and is a good baseline. The DC to add additional secondary animals seems a little steep though; I'd think that most of the DC increase from additional beasties would come from actually using the beasties.
    Actually, I want research to be an important part of the creation; if you can only afford a DC under 30, you'd have to pick only two animals that have, between them, the abilities you are looking for. Which might mean an adventure to go all the way to the desert in order to find that very rare breed of scorpion.
    Of course, this should be modified if you want to make the creation of flying tentacled poisonous three-headed buffalos simpler. I personally won't alter it here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I... missed some of this on my last read-through. Specifically, all of the animal-death. If you leave that part in, it's very likely that I will only ever use this system for Evil-aligned characters (or change it for my use). Also, I can now totally see why Druids can't use this system, though I'm still thinking that Evil Druids might not have a problem with sacrificing the weak to make the strong stronger.

    Other than the moral quandaries, that all looks good.
    ...Yeah. I didn't state that explicitly, but to me, this kind of experimentation involves physically taking parts from the poor little things, in order to adapt them to, and graft them onto the big beastie, so there will be blood.
    Of course, it could also be a simple magical replication of their features, in which case all the animals live happily ever after, and some druids would be fine with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    This seems decent, to me (though I have conceptual problems with expending XP for any reason, your pricing doesn't seem out of line with existing rules).
    I don't really like the "expend XP to create items" rule either, but I can't seem to find an appropriate substitute. Still, it exists and is widely used, so I was thinking I'd fall in line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    Not a bad idea, but, like you said, that seems a bit too complicated for my liking. Also, I think your math is off. Your example DC 22 creature should cost 1750gp to create. It looks like you multiplied the DC -10 by 25 instead of the whole DC for the last equation.

    If you were wondering, the pricing for your bearowl would be (1 x 400) + (6 x 300) + (10 x 200) + (18 x 100) + (30 x 25) gold and (1 x 24) + (6 x 16) + (10 x 8) + (18 x 4) + (30 x 2) experience. That's 6,750p and 332xp, compared to the old 6,000gp and 480xp.
    Okay, I worded that poorly, sorry. (My speaking English is bad.)
    What I meant actually is that :
    -for every point of DC between 1 and 12, you pay 25 GP
    -for every point between 13 and 20, you pay 100 GP
    and so on.
    This means that a DC 21 creature would cost as much as a DC 20 creature, +200 GP, while a DC 20 creature would cost as much as a DC 19 + 100 GP.
    I'll alter the tables so that they are slightly less confusing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I'm almost certain that official rules for such things never existed in 3.X. I've worked up some homebrew stats for both ducks and rabbits, though, if you're interested. (Also swans/geese, dire swans/geese, and dire hares, but that's not totally relevant.)
    I'm interested, but I can't find them in your signature. I'd appreciate it if you directed me to them.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I'd suggest that this involve some form of resource investment, be it a skilltrick, spell, feat, or even Prestige Class. Allowing anyone with ranks in Spellcraft to do it just doesn't feel right to me.
    I'll add a required caster level. I don't think a skilltrick really fits for this, and a feat looks like a heavy investment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    Also, maybe a feat or PrC could give you limited control over your creations? It seems like a neat idea (to me).
    This looks like a great idea. A three-level PrC with partial casting would do the trick.


    Thank you very much for your remarks and suggestions. I will edit the original post right now.
    Last edited by Keynub; 2012-11-11 at 10:06 AM.

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Sorry it took me so long to respond; I've had sort of a weird day.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Indeed. My reasons for this distinction was, actually, that it would raise even more questions, for example : one brain or several? Are there several distinct consciousnesses? Which one prevails : is the creature scared of combat, like its hen head, or is it fierce and territorial, like its wolverine head? Do they each control different limbs? If so, which ones?
    This is actually addressed with certain creatures (such as this unicorn), but is usually ignored. I'd say to leave it up to the DM/player.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Yeah, forget that. I'll lift the restriction; it would be sad to waste the opportunity to say "Look behind you! A three-headed monkey!".
    When in doubt, go for the most awesome result.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Actually, I want research to be an important part of the creation; if you can only afford a DC under 30, you'd have to pick only two animals that have, between them, the abilities you are looking for. Which might mean an adventure to go all the way to the desert in order to find that very rare breed of scorpion.
    Of course, this should be modified if you want to make the creation of flying tentacled poisonous three-headed buffalos simpler. I personally won't alter it here.
    I can see what you mean... Alright, yeah. That makes sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Okay, I worded that poorly, sorry. (My speaking English is bad.)
    Your English is fantastic, actually; certainly better than my "your native language," I can tell you that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    I'm interested, but I can't find them in your signature. I'd appreciate it if you directed me to them.
    Ooh! Sorry about that; I've never actually posted the dire swan online before, and the others are sort of scattered. One of these days I'm going to have to collect my Animals into one thread.

    Anyhoo, here they are:
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    Rabbit
    Size/Type: Tiny Animal
    Hit Dice: 1/2d8 (2hp)
    Initiative: +1
    Speed: 30ft (6 squares)
    Armor Class: 13 (+2 size, +1 Dex), touch 13, flat-footed 11
    BAB/Grapple: +0/-12
    Attack: Claw -3 melee* (1d2-4)
    Full Attack: 2 claws -3 melee* (1d2-4)
    Space/Reach: 2.5ft/0ft
    S. Attacks: -
    S. Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
    Saves: Fort +3, Ref +3, Will +1
    Abilities: Str 3, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
    Skills: Hide +13, Jump +1, Listen +11, Move Silently +5, Spot +7
    Feats: Weapon FinesseB, Alertness
    Environment: Temperate Plains
    Organization: Solitary, Pair, or Domesticated
    Challenge Rating: 1/4
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always Neutral
    Advancement: -
    Level Adjustment: +0 (Familiar)

    *A rabbit's claws are considered secondary attacks.

    Skills:
    Rabbits have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks. Rabbits use the higher of their Dexterity modifier or Strength modifier for Jump checks.


    Familiar Benefits:
    As a familiar, a rabbit grants its master a +3 bonus on Jump checks.



    Dire Rabbit
    Size/Type: Medium Animal
    Hit Dice: 4d8+8 (24hp)
    Initiative: +3
    Speed: 50ft (6 squares)
    Armor Class: 15 (+3 Dex, +2 natural), touch 15, flat-footed 12
    BAB/Grapple: +3/+4
    Attack: Claw +6 melee (1d4+1)
    Full Attack: 2 claws +6 melee (1d4+1) and bite +1 melee (1d3)
    Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
    S. Attacks: Pounce, rake
    S. Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
    Saves: Fort +6, Ref +7, Will +5
    Abilities: Str 13, Dex 17, Con 15, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 8
    Skills: Hide +9, Jump +11, Listen +11, Move Silently +9, Spot +10
    Feats: Weapon FinesseB, Alertness, Stealthy
    Environment: Temperate Plains
    Organization: Solitary, Pair, or Domesticated
    Challenge Rating: 2
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always Neutral
    Advancement: 5-7 HD (Medium)
    Level Adjustment: +3 (Animal companion)

    Pounce (Ex):
    If a dire rabbit charges a foe, it can make a Full-Attack, including two rake attacks.

    Rake (Ex):
    Attack bonus +6 melee, damage 1d4+1.


    Skills:
    Dire rabbits have a +4 racial bonus on Hide and Move Silently checks and a +8 racial bonus on Listen checks. Dire rabbits use the higher of their Dexterity modifier or Strength modifier for Jump checks.



    Duck
    Size/Type: Tiny Animal
    Hit Dice: 1/2d8 (2hp)
    Initiative: -1
    Speed: 10ft (2 squares), swim 30ft, fly 50ft (average)
    Armor Class: 12 (+2 size, -1 Dex, +1 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
    BAB/Grapple: +0/-12
    Attack: Bite -6 melee* (1d2-4)
    Full Attack: Bite -6 melee* (1d2-4)
    Space/Reach: 2.5ft/0ft
    S. Attacks: -
    S. Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
    Saves: Fort +2, Ref +1, Will +0
    Abilities: Str 3, Dex 9, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 6
    Skills: Listen +2, Spot +2, Swim +4
    Feats: Weapon FinesseB, Endurance
    Environment: Temperate Marshes
    Organization: Solitary, Pair, or Flock (6-16)
    Challenge Rating: 1/6
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always Neutral
    Advancement: -
    Level Adjustment: +0 (Familiar)

    *A duck's bite is considered a secondary attack.

    Hold Breath (Ex):
    A duck can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 6 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.


    Skills:
    A duck has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.


    Familiar Benefits:
    As a familiar, a duck grants its master a +3 bonus on Swim checks.



    Goose
    Size/Type: Small Animal
    Hit Dice: 1d8 (4hp)
    Initiative: +2
    Speed: 20ft (4 squares), swim 30ft, fly 50ft (average)
    Armor Class: 14 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural), touch 13, flat-footed 12
    BAB/Grapple: +0/-5
    Attack: Wing slap +2 (1d4-1)
    Full Attack: 2 wing slaps +2 melee (1d4-1) and bite -2 melee (1d3-1)
    Space/Reach: 5ft/5ft
    S. Attacks: -
    S. Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
    Saves: Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +1
    Abilities: Str 9, Dex 15, Con 10, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 6
    Skills: Listen +2, Spot +2, Swim +7
    Feats: Weapon FinesseB, Endurance
    Environment: Temperate Marshes
    Organization: Solitary, Pair, or Flock (6-16)
    Challenge Rating: 1/3
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always Neutral
    Advancement: -
    Level Adjustment: +0 (Animal Companion)

    These statistics can also be used to represent a swan. To do so, simply replace the Endurance feat with the Alertness feat, and adjust the animal's Listen and Spot modifiers accordingly.


    Hold Breath (Ex):
    A goose can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 6 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.


    Skills:
    A goose has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.




    Dire Swan
    Size/Type: Large Animal
    Hit Dice: 7d8+21 (52hp)
    Initiative: +1
    Speed: 30ft (6 squares), swim 40ft, fly 60ft (average)
    Armor Class: 16 (-1 size, +1 Dex, +6 natural), touch 10, flat-footed 15
    BAB/Grapple: +5/+15
    Attack: Wing slap +11 melee (1d8+6) or bite +11 melee (1d6+6)
    Full Attack: 2 wing slaps +11 melee (1d8+6) and bite +6 melee (1d6+3)
    Space/Reach: 10ft/5ft (10ft with bite)
    S. Attacks: -
    S. Qualities: Hold breath, low-light vision
    Saves: Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +8
    Abilities: Str 22, Dex 13, Con 16, Int 2, Wis 13, Cha 6
    Skills: Listen +8, Spot +8, Swim +14
    Feats: Alertness, Iron Will, Lightning Reflexes
    Environment: Temperate Marshes
    Organization: Solitary or Pair
    Challenge Rating: 4
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always Neutral
    Advancement: -
    Level Adjustment: +6 (Animal Companion)


    Hold Breath (Ex):
    A dire swan can hold its breath for a number of rounds equal to 6 x its Constitution score before it risks drowning.


    Skills:
    A dire swan has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    This looks like a great idea. A three-level PrC with partial casting would do the trick.
    I would love to see that. I await impatiently.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Thank you very much for your remarks and suggestions. I will edit the original post right now.
    I've looked back over the updated OP, and everything looks great. Good on you, man! Lots of neat little additions that I loved.
    Last edited by Lyndworm; 2012-11-12 at 08:36 AM.
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    Sorry it took me so long to respond; I've had sort of a weird day.
    No need to apologize. "Weird" doesn't mean "bad" in this context, I hope?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    Your English is fantastic, actually; certainly better than my "your native language," I can tell you that.
    Thank you! That would be French. And I don't blame you, because French is incredibly complicated.

    Back on track : you definitely should gather these animals somewhere around here. The dire swan is a beautiful idea. And imagining a little rabbit clumsily trying to hit me with his tiny feet gave me the giggles.

    Regarding the prestige class, I was thinking of making it rely on the Handle Animal skill. It would get some advantages, such as : no penalty on Handle Animal towards your own creations, the ability to rear them at the moment of their creation...
    Or another idea would be to make it based on magical charms / coercition. I really don't know which idea to choose.

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Few questions:
    First, do you think these should be counted a magic items for the purpose of artificers?
    Second, do you think a mix of handle animal and spellcraft would work to make the process more logical? I imagine that you'd probably need spellcraft, knowledge: nature, handle animal, and knowledge: arcana for total coverage to be honest.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    No need to apologize. "Weird" doesn't mean "bad" in this context, I hope?
    No, not bad at all! I've just not been feeling well, and have been a little preoccupied. The days have just been strange, so I've been coming online a bit later in the evening than I'd prefer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Thank you! That would be French. And I don't blame you, because French is incredibly complicated.
    I'll take your word on French's complexity, because I honestly don't know much about it. I really just speak English, though I occasionally surprise myself with how much (Mexican) Spanish I've picked up (still not a lot, if you were wondering).

    I speak a little American Sign Language, too (the 26-letter alphabet, a lot of basic signs); I wouldn't have normally brought it up, but I've heard that it's supposed to be very similar to French Sign Language. (You speaking French and all, it seemed relevant. )

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Regarding the prestige class, I was thinking of making it rely on the Handle Animal skill. It would get some advantages, such as : no penalty on Handle Animal towards your own creations, the ability to rear them at the moment of their creation...
    Or another idea would be to make it based on magical charms / coercition. I really don't know which idea to choose.
    A Handle Animal-focus isn't a terrible idea. That would lead the class to perhaps favor Druids, I think, because most other casters don't have Handle Animal in-class. I'm not totally sure what "rearing" a creature actually does, though. From my reading, it seems like it really only helps people who aren't the trainer.

    The charm option could also work out, but I'd have to see how they differ in-game to really make a call.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Few questions:
    First, do you think these should be counted a magic items for the purpose of artificers?
    I'm not really qualified to answer this, but I'd say so. That just makes sense to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Second, do you think a mix of handle animal and spellcraft would work to make the process more logical? I imagine that you'd probably need spellcraft, knowledge: nature, handle animal, and knowledge: arcana for total coverage to be honest.
    Knowledge (Nature) would be an important part of learning which creatures have which abilities, and where you can find them. Knowledge (Arcana) already provides a synergy bonus to Spellcraft, and it would be used to learn about the resulting Magical Beasts in the same way that K:Nature is used for Animals and Vermin.

    I suppose one or both could be made a prerequisite of some sort, though.
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I'm not really qualified to answer this, but I'd say so. That just makes sense to me.
    Damn, I was hoping I could make some crazy experiments to go with my golems. C'est la vie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Personally, I would say an Artificer cannot infuse a hybrid they created.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    Knowledge (Nature) would be an important part of learning which creatures have which abilities, and where you can find them. Knowledge (Arcana) already provides a synergy bonus to Spellcraft, and it would be used to learn about the resulting Magical Beasts in the same way that K:Nature is used for Animals and Vermin.
    This. I could see Knowledge (Nature) granting a synergy bonus to the required Spellcraft check, though ; and maybe Heal for the more bloody method.
    Handle Animal really has nothing to do with magical experimentation, although it can be used to help restrain the subjects.

    So, maybe I'll just create both prestige classes; one would be more Druid-oriented while the other would suit Wizards and the like better.


    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    I speak a little American Sign Language, too (the 26-letter alphabet, a lot of basic signs); I wouldn't have normally brought it up, but I've heard that it's supposed to be very similar to French Sign Language. (You speaking French and all, it seemed relevant. )
    Speaking a sign language is quite the accomplishment. I can't even sign one.
    Last edited by Keynub; 2012-11-14 at 12:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Personally, I would say an Artificer cannot infuse a hybrid they created.
    Ah, but they would be able to make them? That's awesome.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Personally, I would say an Artificer cannot infuse a hybrid they created.
    That makes sense, but I think Mithril Leaf was referring to the Artificer's XP pool and crafting discounts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    So, maybe I'll just create both prestige classes; one would be more Druid-oriented while the other would suit Wizards and the like better.
    That sounds promising.

    Quote Originally Posted by Keynub View Post
    Speaking a sign language is quite the accomplishment. I can't even sign one.
    Well, I wouldn't say that I was fluent, but thanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mithril Leaf View Post
    Ah, but they would be able to make them? That's awesome.
    Of course! The have a caster level and can take ranks in Spellcraft.
    Last edited by Lyndworm; 2012-11-15 at 06:15 AM.
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  25. - Top - End - #25
    Dwarf in the Playground
     
    Keynub's Avatar

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Quote Originally Posted by Lyndworm View Post
    That makes sense, but I think Mithril Leaf was referring to the Artificer's XP pool and crafting discounts.
    Oh... right. I'm feeling stupid now.
    It makes sense; the GP cost is only for the components, which probably aren't much different from that of a magic item.
    For the XP pool, that's OK with me; I think I'm going to remove the XP cost altogether though.

    Work on the prestige classes will have to wait a little, I'm afraid. So many things take priority on homebrewing at the moment.

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    Here is something I just made using these rules:
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    Ur-Tendrilla
    Size/Type: Large Magical Beast (Augmented Animal)
    Hit Dice: 4d8+11 (29 hp)
    Initiative: +2
    Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 30 ft., swim 30 ft.
    Armor Class: 14 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
    Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+12
    Attack: Claws +7 melee (1d6+5)
    Full Attack: 2 claws +7 melee (1d6+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)
    Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
    Special Attacks: Improved Grab
    Special Qualities: Low-light vision, scent
    Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2
    Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 12, Cha 7
    Skills: Climb +14, Escape Artist +12, Hide +6, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +13
    Feats: Alertness, Toughness
    Environment: Jungles
    Organization: Solitary, pair, or swamp (3–5)
    Challenge Rating: 3
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always neutral
    Advancement: 5–8 HD (Large), 9-12 (Huge)
    Level Adjustment:

    These powerful carnivores resemble gorillas with a colossal mass of rending tendrils instead of arms but are far more aggressive; they kill and eat anything they can catch. An adult male Tendrilla is 5-1/2 to 6 feet tall and weighs 300 to 400 pounds.
    A Tendrilla’s tentacles are thin and lithe, constantly shifting around each other and intertwining to form powerful limbs. Its face is canine in appearance, with razor sharp teeth. The flesh of a Tendrilla is generally a dark azure in colouration, but it can change to fit it’s environment.

    COMBAT
    The Tendrilla are hunters who use simple hit and run tactics in combat, and utilise their agility and mobility to strike any prey without difficulty. When fighting in large battles they generally strike with their clawed tendrils, but when fighting single targets they often constrict foes with their many tendrils.
    Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, a Tendrilla must hit an opponent of any size with its claws attack. It can then attempt to start a grapple as a free action without provoking an attack of opportunity. If it wins the grapple check, it establishes a hold and automatically deals bite damage.
    Skills: Tendrilla have a +8 racial bonus on Climb checks and can always choose to take 10 on Climb checks, even if rushed or threatened. A Tendrilla can change colors, giving it a +4 racial bonus on Hide checks. A Tendrilla also can squeeze and contort its body, giving it a +10 racial bonus on Escape Artist checks. A Tendrilla has a +8 racial bonus on any Swim check to perform some special action or avoid a hazard. It can always choose to take 10 on a Swim check, even if distracted or endangered. It can use the run action while swimming, provided it swims in a straight line.

    CREATION
    The Tendrilla is a hybrid, using Ape as the Primary Creature and Octopus as a secondary.
    The Spellcraft DC for creation is 35, has cost of 5800 gp.

    Second Generation Stats:
    Spoiler
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    Tendrilla
    Size/Type: Large Magical Beast
    Hit Dice: 4d10+11 (33 hp)
    Initiative: +2
    Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares), climb 30 ft., swim 30 ft.
    Armor Class: 14 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +3 natural), touch 11, flat-footed 12
    Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+12
    Attack: Claws +8 melee (1d6+5)
    Full Attack: 2 claws +8 melee (1d6+5) and bite +2 melee (1d6+2)
    Space/Reach: 10 ft./10 ft.
    Special Attacks: Improved Grab
    Special Qualities: Darkvision 60ft., Low-light vision, Scent
    Saves: Fort +6, Ref +6, Will +2
    Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 3, Wis 12, Cha 7
    Skills: Climb +14, Escape Artist +12, Hide +6, Listen +6, Spot +6, Swim +13
    Feats: Alertness, Toughness
    Environment: Jungles
    Organization: Solitary, pair, or swamp (3–5)
    Challenge Rating: 3
    Treasure: None
    Alignment: Always neutral
    Advancement: 5–8 HD (Large), 9-12 (Huge)
    Level Adjustment:

    Last edited by Milo v3; 2012-11-15 at 07:19 PM.
    My Homebrew (200+) Not up to date

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    By Aruius.

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Mithril Leaf's Avatar

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    What do we do if the DC is above the listed numbers? I'd love to merge an advanced magebred warbeast fleshraker with a warbeast legendary eagle and warbeast legendary horse, but sadly that brings the DC to a nice round 78.
    If you see me talking about Shaper Psions, assume that anything not poison immune within 100 feet will be dead.
    Quote Originally Posted by kardar233 View Post
    I was going to PM you about it because I wanted to know, but then you posted it later. Elegant solution. Watch out for Necropolitans.
    My Homebrew Signature such as it is.

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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    The DCs seem to naturally and logically scale pretty well. To extrapolate from the table, I would say that the next few steps look like this:

    {table=head]
    DC
    |
    GP Cost
    |
    XP Cost


    50-59 | 400 GP x DC | 32 XP x DC

    60-69 | 500 GP x DC | 40 XP x DC

    70-79 | 600 GP x DC | 48 XP x DC

    80-89 | 700 GP x DC | 56 XP x DC

    90-99 | 800 GP x DC | 64 XP x DC

    100-109 | 900 GP x DC | 72 XP x DC[/table]



    The progression for the second table is much trickier. It's either really, really close to arbitrary, or I'm even thicker than I think I am.
    Are any of my tables still broken?



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  29. - Top - End - #29
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    Default Re: Hybrid Animal Creation [3.5] (PEACH)

    I've been away for some time and will be again this week. My apologies.

    Regarding the second table, I didn't explain how I got the tables, and will try to do so in this post.

    Every category except the first has a fixed cost added to one that follows a linear progression (x * (DC-y) ).
    x increases between categories but is arbitrary at first ; later, for a given category, x is always the previous value of x + 100.
    y is the lower limit of the category minus 1. For the 21-24 category, this is 21 - 1 = 20.
    The fixed cost is the cost for a DC equal to y.

    I'll provide an example.

    For a DC of 20, the cost would be, according to the second table, 300 + 800 = 1100 GP.
    This is the fixed cost for the next category : for the 21-24 category, we have y = 20, and the cost is 1100 + x * (DC - 20).
    So, to calculate the cost for a DC between 50 and 59, you would have to calculate the cost for a DC of 49. That is 12400 GP : the fixed cost. You add 600 * (DC - 49) to this value.

    I'll rephrase : for a DC between 50 and 59, the GP cost is 12400 + 600 * (DC - 49).

    The second method is actually less arbitrary, because the increases are less brutal from one category to another, which means the category limits you choose matter less. For example, expanding the 21-24 category to 21-29 would lower all the costs for DCs higher than 21, but less than the other method would. This is illustrated in the charts spoilered below.
    Spoiler
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    Both charts show the GP cost calculated for the DC.
    First one : for the first method, which is way simpler.



    It would be great if there wasn't these huge jumps whenever you get from a category to another (for example, the cost more than doubles from a DC 29 to a DC 30.) This is the reason why I designed the second method, which provides the following chart :



    That's better : an increase in cost, even an increase in the increase in cost, and on top of it, the cost isn't subject to arbitrary huge increases. But it is complicated.


    This was probably unclear, because hey, math in a secondary language! So, if you have questions or remarks, I will welcome them with open arms, and try to answer them as best I can.
    I'm thinking this is probably too complicated; but with the table extended to 110 or so can be simple enough.

    As for the first method, Lyndworm got it right, as he seems to always do.
    Last edited by Keynub; 2012-11-19 at 01:15 PM.

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