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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Welcome, contestants, judges, and guests to Iron Chef XXXIX. Here in Optimization Colosseum, contestants will endeavor to create an optimized and flavorful character using a specified D&D3.5 prestige class as a "Secret Ingredient".

    Contestants: You will need to present a write-up of your build at at least one of the following points: 5th level, 10th level, 15th, 20th, and a "sweet spot" that you feel is the high point of the build, as well as presenting a fully-fleshed out 20-level build in the table below. Feel free to present as many of these as you like, and please give a rundown of the build's abilities and playability at all of the levels you didn't show. The rules are as follows:

    Menu: For most challenges, the "special ingredient" will be drawn from Core plus Completes. There will, from time to time, be special challenges that showcase secret ingredients from other books--for example, the XPH.
    32 point-buy is the presumed creation method, but we have generally allowed other levels of point-buy.
    If you do use a different point-buy, please make your case for its necessity in your entry. Keep in mind that for using exceptionally large or small point-buys may warrant deductions in elegance and/or power.

    Kitchen: Competitors will be free to use any official 3.5 rulebook in constructing their builds. Dragon magazine is disallowed, and Unearthed Arcana is allowed; but see Elegance below. Web-exclusive 3.0 or 3.5 materials by WotC are expressly allowed, but take care to verify that an updated version did not appear in print elsewhere, as this may cause an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion. Alternate rule systems from UA such as gestalt are not allowed, as they create a different playing field. Also, item familiars are forbidden because I hate 'em. This comes up often enough to bear mention in the rules: Dragon Compendium is allowed.

    Cooking Time: Contestants will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, November 17th, 2012 to create their builds and PM them to the Chairman, Amphetryon. Builds will then be posted simultaneously, to avoid copying. Judges will have until 11:59PM GMT on Saturday, December 1st, 2012 to judge the builds and submit their scores. If no judges have scored by that point, only the scores of the first judge to submit will be counted.

    Judging: Judging will be based on the following criteria, with each build rated from 1 (very poor) to 5 (exemplary) in each area: Originality, Power, Elegance, Use of Secret Ingredient.
    Power level is up to you. Cheese is acceptable, but should be kept to a sane level unless you're showcasing a new TO build you've discovered. In the words of one of my predecessors, a little cheddar can be nice, but avoid the mature Gruyere unless you're making a cheese fondue.
    Elegance could bear a little elaboration. It basically measures how skillfully you put your build together, and whether you sacrificed flavor for power. We're cooking here - if your dish doesn't taste good, it doesn't matter how well-presented it is. Use of flaws is an automatic loss of one point per flaw in this category. Other things that will cause lost points here are excessive multiclassing, and classes that don't fit the concept - using Cloistered Cleric in a front-line melee fighter, for example, will lose you points. Please note the following change: a legal source's relative obscurity should not be considered as penalizing Elegance, excepting the aforementioned issues with Unearthed Arcana. Using too many sources may be an Elegance deduction at the judges' discretion, but a book's relative obscurity may not.
    Presentation: Builds will be posted anonymously, in order to avoid the potential of bias towards a particular competitor. For this reason, please don't put your name in the build, as I'm likely to miss it when reviewing the entries!
    Due to concerns about standardizing entry format, I'd like everyone to try to use the following table for their entry.
    Spoiler
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    NAME OF ENTRY
    {table=head]Level|Class|Base Attack Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Skills|Feats|Class Features

    1st|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    2nd|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    3rd|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    4th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    5th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    6th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    7th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    8th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    9th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    10th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    11th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    12th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    13th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    14th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    15th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    16th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    17th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    18th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    19th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    20th|New Class Level|
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |
    +x
    |Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

    Code
    Spoiler
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    [b]NAME OF ENTRY[/b]
    {table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]Class[/b]|[b]Base Attack Bonus[/b]|[b]Fort Save[/b]|[b]Ref Save[/b]|[b]Will Save[/b]|[b]Skills[/b]|[b]Feats[/b]|[b]Class Features[/b]

    1st|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    2nd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    3rd|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    4th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    5th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    6th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    7th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    8th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    9th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    10th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    11th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    12th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    13th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    14th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    15th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    16th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    17th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    18th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    19th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities

    20th|New Class Level|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|[center]+x[/center]|Skills|New Feats|New Class Abilities[/table]

    For entries with spellcasting, use the following table for Spells per day and Spells Known. (Spells Known only if necessary, i.e. Sorcerer or Bard, but not Wizard or Warmage)
    Spoiler
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    Spells per day/Spells Known
    {table=head]Level|0lvl|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th

    1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

    Code
    Spoiler
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    [b]Spells per day/Spells Known[/b]
    {table=head][b]Level[/b]|[b]0lvl[/b]|[b]1st[/b]|[b]2nd[/b]|[b]3rd[/b]|[b]4th[/b]|[b]5th[/b]|[b]6th[/b]|[b]7th[/b]|[b]8th[/b]|[b]9th[/b]

    1st|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    2nd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    3rd|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    4th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    5th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    6th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    7th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    8th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    9th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    10th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    11th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    12th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    13th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    14th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    15th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    16th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    17th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    18th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    19th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-

    20th|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-|-[/table]

    For other systems (Psionics, ToB, Incarnum, etc.) keep track of PP/maneuvers/essentia separately, preferably in a nice neat list.
    Speculation: Please don't post or speculate on possible builds until the "reveal," in order to avoid spoiling the surprise if a particular competitor is producing a build along those lines.

    Leadership is banned; we're producing a meal, not a seven-course banquet for a hundred diners. If your entry includes a prestige class or ACF that grants Leadership or a Leadership-like ability as a bonus feat, the feat should be ignored and is not eligible to be traded away for another feat or ACF through any means.

    So! Who wants to sign up as a contestant, and who wants to sign up as a judge? Looking for as many contestants and judges as feel like playing!

    This week's special ingredient is:
    Magic of Eberron's Renegade Mastermaker!
    We will award 1st through 3rd places, as well as a shout-out for honorable mention. The honorable mention prize is given to the most daring or unexpected build. Judges, contestants and guests alike are invited to vote for honorable mention via PM.

    Allez optimiser!

    Contestants

    Judges

    The Builds

    Past Competitions

    Iron Chef I: Entropomancer
    Iron Chef II: Psibond Agent
    Iron Chef III: Cancer Mage
    Iron Chef IV: Stonelord
    Iron Chef V: War Chanter
    Iron Chef VI: Master of Masks
    Iron Chef VII: Green Star Adept
    Iron Chef VIII: Pyrokineticist
    Iron Chef IX: Animal Lord
    Iron Chef X: Mythic Exemplar
    Iron Chef XI: Blade Bravo
    Iron Chef XII: War Mind
    Iron Chef XIII: Vigilante
    Iron Chef XIV: Seeker of the Song
    Iron Chef XV: Drunken Master
    Iron Chef XVI: Assassin
    Iron Chef XVII: Ardent Dilettante
    Iron Chef XVIII: Unseelie Dark Hunter
    Iron Chef XIX: Dread Pirate
    Iron Chef XX: Incandescent Champion
    Iron Chef XXI: Ghostwalker
    Iron Chef XXII: Dervish
    Iron Chef XXIII: Divine Crusader
    Iron Chef XXIV: Tactical Soldier
    Iron Chef XXV: Scion of Tem-Et-Nu
    Iron Chef XXVI: Shadowdancer
    Iron Chef XXVII: Mindbender
    Iron Chef XXVIII: Cryokineticist
    Iron Chef XXIX: Consecrated Harrier
    Iron Chef XXX: Initiate of Pistis Sophia
    Iron Chef XXXI: Shadow Sentinel
    Iron Chef XXXII: Temple Raider of Olidammara
    Iron Chef XXXIII: Drow Judicator
    Iron Chef XXXIV: Dragon Disciple
    Iron Chef XXXV: Death Delver
    Iron Chef XXXVI: Acolyte of the Skin
    Iron Chef XXXVII: Justiciar
    Iron Chef XXXVIII: Hand of the Winged Master
    Crucible of the Word and Sword

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  2. - Top - End - #2
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amphetryon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    FAQ:
    Is Dragon Compendium Allowed? Yes, but individual issues of Dragon Magazine are not.

    What about 3.0 materials? 3.0 materials, whether online or in printed form, are allowed unless they've been officially updated to a 3.5 edition.

    Are Dragonlance, Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, or Kingdoms of Kalamar allowable sources? The Dragonlance Campaign Setting is allowed, but the subsequent books for Dragonlance are considered 3rd party, and are therefore not eligible, despite the "WotC approved" status of those books. The same holds for Oriental Adventures (1st party) and the subsequent Rokugan books (3rd party). Similarly, materials from Ravenloft, Planescape, Dark Sun, and Kingdoms of Kalamar are considered 3rd party for purposes of this contest, and are therefore not allowed.

    What about online sources in general? If the online source is a) published by WotC, and b) not replaced by an updated version at a later time, it is eligible. Use it, link it.

    Where's the line drawn with "acceptable/unacceptable" for Unearthed Arcana? This will likely vary a bit from Chairman to Chairman. Item Familiars and Gestalt have always been verboten, since before IC migrated to GitP; don't expect that to change. Flaws have similarly always been noted as warranting a deduction; while I am Chairman, I'm extending that to Traits, though they warrant 1/2 the penalty in Elegance that a Flaw would because they're roughly 1/2 as useful. Alternate spell systems, alternate skill systems and alternate crafting rules all create an uneven playing field, and as such, will be disallowed for as long as I am Chairman. Bloodlines are ripe for abuse, and will be strongly discouraged as long as I am Chairman. Note that judges are allowed to look askance at any use of Unearthed Arcana not specifically mentioned above, at their discretion, and otherwise penalize Elegance according to their preference.

    What, exactly, does the ban on Leadership mean? As folks have started to try to work around the edges of this one, I'm forced to spell it out more plainly. No Leadership, Draconic Cohort, or Feats that grant a similar ability are allowed EXCEPT Wild Cohort while Amphetryon is chairman. Any PrC you choose with Leadership or a Leadership-analog has that ability entirely ignored for this contest, as it may neither be used nor traded away via any means whatsoever.

    What's the minimum score in a category? Assuming an entry is legal, the minimum score in any category is 1. If a judge is convinced that an entry is illegal by the RAW, the judge may give a 0 or decline to score a given entry. Because this contest focuses on Player Characters, an entry that is not technically allowed for a PC, but is viable as an NPC, counts as a legal entry, but may receive a minimum score at the judges' discretion.

    But, Amph, Renegade Mastermaker can reasonably get 9th level spells! Where's the challenge? If your expectation is that all the presented builds will have 9th level spells, the challenge would appear to lie in choosing the right combination of spells, complementing Classes and Feats, and other abilities to make judges see why your creation is especially awesome, and why it could not have been so with another PrC that also grants that level of spell acquisition. Good luck!

    What ruling(s) are we working with for the Battlefist? They're all confusing and stuff. For the purposes of this contest, a Renegade Mastermaker's Battlefist does 1d6 damage, + STR modifier, if you are Small size, and scales up in damage as any other weapon of that size and that base damage. It is always considered a 1-handed, light weapon unless you take Feats or other abilities that would modify this fact. A Renegade Mastermaker's Battlefist is not the same item as the Warforged component of the same name in the ECS, regardless of name and other similarities you may see.

    What ruling(s) are we working with for Dragonmarks? There's contradictory information out there on whether changing form keeps or loses Dragonmarks. For the purposes of this contest, we're going to treat the Construct Exemplar transformation as following the rules for Reincarnation regarding Dragonmarks, rather than following the rules for the Dragonborn's Ritual of Rebirth. There appears to be equal precedence for either; this ruling comes down on the 'permissive' rather than 'restrictive' side.
    Last edited by Amphetryon; 2012-11-05 at 09:07 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #3
    Troll in the Playground
     
    Venger's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    well, I'm in. I love this class.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    I have the book but never looked at that PrC before...
    Become a Legend today!

    Awesome Legend paladin avatar by Prime32

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Already got an idea, I'm in.
    Just call me Dusk
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  6. - Top - End - #6
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Ugh... of all the rules headaches to walk into a kitchen... Battlefist.

    Why did it have to be Battlefist?

    And then... they made the rules headaches *worse*...

  7. - Top - End - #7
    Troll in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    can we get some rulings on how our battlefists work? they're all confusing and stuff.
    fight my brute! it's a lot of fun
    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    How telling is it that people would rather discuss the taxonomy of tomatoes (which are delicious) than the truenamer class?
    Iron Chef Medals!
    Amazing Princess Mononoke avatar by Dispozition

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    Troll in the Playground
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    This . . . has the potential to be ugly, just from a rules headache perspective. I hope that this ends up not being the case.

    I will say that you'd have to trot out a pretty good-sized check to make me judge this round. Kudos to everyone with the fortitude to do so.
    In the Beginning Was the Word, and the Word Was Suck: A Guide to Truenamers ALL HAIL KING TORG!

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc Roc View Post
    Gentlefolk, learn from Zaq's example, and his suffering. Remember, seven out of eleven players who use truenamer lose their ability to taste ice cream.
    Do you play 4e? I wrote a guide to Truenamers in 4e as well!
    Here's something I homebrewed. (It's not Truenamer-related, honest.) PEACH!

  9. - Top - End - #9
    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Amphetryon's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Zaq View Post
    This . . . has the potential to be ugly, just from a rules headache perspective. I hope that this ends up not being the case.

    I will say that you'd have to trot out a pretty good-sized check to make me judge this round. Kudos to everyone with the fortitude to do so.
    A check? That's easy. . . Oh, you meant a check that's worth the money it claims it is. Never mind.
    Crucible of the Word and Sword

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    Titan in the Playground
     
    Dusk Eclipse's Avatar

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Umm, maybe I'm not reading correctly; but why is Battlefist a rule's mess? From my reading while named the same it is quite distinct from the Battlefist warforged component.
    Just call me Dusk
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Ugh... of all the rules headaches to walk into a kitchen... Battlefist.

    Why did it have to be Battlefist?

    And then... they made the rules headaches *worse*...
    That's what you "ugh" about? I've wanted to enter these for a while, but have a single splatbook (Complete Adventurer, by the way). The only two classes I have access to that have been the ingredient since I joined the Playground are the dragon disciple and shadowdancer. So if my annoyed outburst didn't get the point across, can we pwease have a class from the SRD next? I REALLY want to join one of these, but don't have most splatbooks
    Avatar from anythingcomic.com

    Quote Originally Posted by Razanir View Post
    Everyone knows frying pans are actually weapons that people repurpose for cooking
    I am an 11/11/12/15/12/14 LG Wiz 1/Clr 1

    I have invented a new pronoun. is to be referred to as V/vim/vis/vis/vimself instead of he/him/his/his/himself or she/her/her/hers/herself

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    ... I actually have an idea. A rather nice one as well. Hopefully.

    wwait an see
    Illumian Dread Necromancer Lich avatar by Tinymushroom.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bloodgruve View Post
    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...

    Blood~

  13. - Top - End - #13
    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Out of all the prestige classes in all the world...I'll have to see if I can drum up an entry.
    Iron Chef Optimization Challenge Old Head and Unofficial Archivist
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    OK, I've got an idea, possibly a pretty good one. I'll have to see if it can pan out...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Dusk Eclipse View Post
    Umm, maybe I'm not reading correctly; but why is Battlefist a rule's mess? From my reading while named the same it is quite distinct from the Battlefist warforged component.
    If the two battlefists are one in the same, then it actually clarifies some things... I would go into more detail, but rather than risk speculation, that might be better resolved via PM.

    Can we get a ruling on whether the Battlefist from ECS and the Battlefist in Renegade Mastermaker are one in the same? That is, does the text from ECS apply to the Battlefist provided by Renegade Mastermaker, or should we treat them as two different types of components?

    Quote Originally Posted by Elimu Marimech View Post
    So if my annoyed outburst didn't get the point across, can we pwease have a class from the SRD next? I REALLY want to join one of these, but don't have most splatbooks
    I'd like to see the SRD PrCs finished off as well. I mean, seriously... no one has done Duelist yet?!?

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Wait a second...

    WE'VE GOT A DRAGON DISCIPLE OVER HERE, MATES.

    Renegade Mastermaker changes your type to Construct with the Living Construct subtype (I presume, as all it states is your type changes to Living Construct). The entry requirements for Renegade Mastermaker include Type:Humanoid.

    So you hit level 10, become a living construct and no longer fulfill the requirements for the prestige class (as you are no longer a Humanoid). Which means you lose the benefits from it.

    Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    I've already got my build in.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Elimu Marimech View Post
    That's what you "ugh" about? I've wanted to enter these for a while, but have a single splatbook (Complete Adventurer, by the way). The only two classes I have access to that have been the ingredient since I joined the Playground are the dragon disciple and shadowdancer. So if my annoyed outburst didn't get the point across, can we pwease have a class from the SRD next? I REALLY want to join one of these, but don't have most splatbooks
    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I'd like to see the SRD PrCs finished off as well. I mean, seriously... no one has done Duelist yet?!?
    Now, now ... if we hurry and do all the SRD PrCs, then someone else will join the Playground afterwards and start complaining that all the SRD PrCs were done before she could participate.

    Besides, Duelist is a rather lame PrC even by Iron Chef standards. Arcane Archer, Blackguard, Dwarven Defender, and Horizon Walker might be ok ingredients, though. Although two of them are racially restrictive.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Actually, I have an idea for this too. I may enter.

    I assume from the 8/10 casting progression that this will edition will have high standards for power.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by rockdeworld View Post
    Actually, I have an idea for this too. I may enter.

    I assume from the 8/10 casting progression that this will edition will have high standards for power.
    Unless of course you decide to roll the dice and go for points in elegance and originality, making the judges suprised that you didn't make it all about the spellcasting.
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    Really though, how effin scary would the beach be if an octopus could launch itself outta the water at a 200' move speed every 6 seconds. I'd never go to the beach again... I thought flying sharks were scary...
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Added verbiage on Battlefist to the FAQ. Let me know if I just made things worse.

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by GreenSerpent View Post
    Wait a second...

    WE'VE GOT A DRAGON DISCIPLE OVER HERE, MATES.

    Renegade Mastermaker changes your type to Construct with the Living Construct subtype (I presume, as all it states is your type changes to Living Construct). The entry requirements for Renegade Mastermaker include Type:Humanoid.

    So you hit level 10, become a living construct and no longer fulfill the requirements for the prestige class (as you are no longer a Humanoid). Which means you lose the benefits from it.

    Or am I barking up the wrong tree?
    Ignore Schrodinger's Construct. You continue to qualify, because that's just silly.
    Last edited by Amphetryon; 2012-11-04 at 09:27 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    What ruling(s) are we working with for the Battlefist? They're all confusing and stuff. For the purposes of this contest, a Renegade Mastermaker's Battlefist does 1d6 damage, + STR modifier, if you are Small size, and scales up in damage as any other weapon of that size and that base damage.
    Shouldn't the default size be 1d6 = medium? A small-sized character would have a 1d4 battlefist.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    It is always considered a 1-handed, light weapon unless you take Feats or other abilities that would modify this fact.
    As a natural weapon, however, you can use Power Attack with it. By my reading, if it's not your primary weapon, you can use it as either a secondary natural attack, or as an offhand attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    A Renegade Mastermaker's Battlefist is not the same item as the Warforged component of the same name in the ECS, regardless of name and other similarities you may see.
    So... once we're considered Warforged (or add the Mighty Arms graft), we can mount the ECS Battlefist in addition to the RM Battlefist? Do we get two 1d8 slams then, or just one? Can we TWF with both battlefists, or just the RM version?

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    Ignore Schrodinger's Construct. You continue to qualify, because that's just silly.
    It's somewhat more silly than just that... Living Construct is actually a subtype, not a type. I'm... not entirely sure what the designer intended here, but I think he wanted the type to change to Construct, with Living Construct as a subtype.

    The alternative would be your type remains Humanoid, but you gain the Living Construct subtype. While this may be closer to RAW, I think RAI might be the best way to go here.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    Shouldn't the default size be 1d6 = medium? A small-sized character would have a 1d4 battlefist.
    By making the default 1d6 for Small size, it falls in line with the ECS Battlefist's damage for Medium, which was the intent of the ruling. Incidentally, the verbiage "shouldn't" comes across with baggage of "no, you're wrong, and here's why," with the rider that the "no you're wrong, and here's why" applies to all commentary to follow in the post. Was that your intent?

    As a natural weapon, however, you can use Power Attack with it. By my reading, if it's not your primary weapon, you can use it as either a secondary natural attack, or as an offhand attack.
    I never (thought I) said otherwise, or created a rules-paradox with what I posted. Did I? If it's your offhand or secondary attack, the damage from the STR modifier would naturally be reduced as normal for such attacks, but I did not think that needed to be explicitly spelled out here, as it's already black-letter RAW.

    So... once we're considered Warforged (or add the Mighty Arms graft), we can mount the ECS Battlefist in addition to the RM Battlefist? Do we get two 1d8 slams then, or just one? Can we TWF with both battlefists, or just the RM version?
    How are you fitting two different gauntlets/magic items onto the same slot, again? That's how "in addition to" reads, from here. Otherwise, what you do for enhancements with your off-hand shouldn't interfere with what you do for enhancements with your primary hand, unless you've got specific rules text that contradicts that.

    It's somewhat more silly than just that... Living Construct is actually a subtype, not a type. I'm... not entirely sure what the designer intended here, but I think he wanted the type to change to Construct, with Living Construct as a subtype.

    The alternative would be your type remains Humanoid, but you gain the Living Construct subtype. While this may be closer to RAW, I think RAI might be the best way to go here.
    I cannot tell if you are arguing against or for the commentary regarding Schrodinger's Construct at this point. Please clarify.
    Last edited by Amphetryon; 2012-11-04 at 10:46 AM.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Ah, another ingredient I'm not familiar enough with to either cook with or judge. Unfortunate, but them's the breaks. Good luck to all who will still be involved.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    By making the default 1d6 for Small size, it falls in line with the ECS Battlefist's damage for Medium, which was the intent of the ruling. Incidentally, the verbiage "shouldn't" comes across with baggage of "no, you're wrong, and here's why," with the rider that the "no you're wrong, and here's why" applies to all commentary to follow in the post. Was that your intent?
    The 1d6 damage is granted as a class feature. Normally, when a natural attack is granted via a class feature, template, or soulmeld, the creature's default size is assumed to be medium. Sometimes whatever grants the natural attack tells you to adjust up/down for size differences, but if it doesn't, then the size adjustment is generally implied.

    If I'm a medium-sized character that takes a level in Renegade Mastermaker, I get a battlefist that does 1d6 damage by RAW. But you just said it goes up to 1d8 because I'm one size larger than small. (Which you said is so it matches the ECS battlefist... but you declared they were two different things, so why exactly does the damage have to match if they're two different things?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    I never (thought I) said otherwise, or created a rules-paradox with what I posted. Did I?
    Sorry, I was just clarifying. No, you didn't say otherwise. Normally, light weapons can't be used with PA. This battlefist is an exception, because it counts as both a natural weapon and a manufactured weapon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    If it's your offhand or secondary attack, the damage from the STR modifier would naturally be reduced as normal for such attacks, but I did not think that needed to be explicitly spelled out here, as it's already black-letter RAW.
    Again, I was just trying to clarify. Normally, a slam attack can't be used as an offhand attack because it's a natural weapon, and those are either treated as primary attacks or secondary attacks by RAW. The text doesn't specify if the slam isn't your primary, do you treat it as a secondary attack, or can it be used as an offhand attack? By my reading of the rules, it can be either, and I just wanted to clarify that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    How are you fitting two different gauntlets/magic items onto the same slot, again?
    I have two arms. If I replace one with a Battlefist, I still have another arm. You said the two battlefists were different, so I could mount one as a class feature, then get the mighty arms graft (which is a graft, not a magic item, hence it doesn't take up a "slot"), and then mount the ECS battlefist on my other arm. (The battlefists are enchanted as weapons, not as arm-slot items, so I'm not sure why magic item slots would be an issue.) If this is possible, then the ECS battlefist bumps up the slam damage on my RM battlefist by a size category... and creates some perplexities if I'm considered a Warforged with monk levels.

    Quote Originally Posted by Amphetryon View Post
    I cannot tell if you are arguing against or for the commentary regarding Schrodinger's Construct at this point. Please clarify.
    By RAW, adding the Living Construct subtype to a humanoid doesn't change the type to Construct. It's a subtype, not a type. In this case, there would be no Schrodinger problem: you're still a humanoid, so you still qualify for the PrC.

    I was arguing that RAI makes more sense... the designer intended the type to change to Construct, with the Living Construct subtype. In this case, I'm perfectly happy with your "No Schrodinger" ruling.

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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    *Clears Throat*
    To judge this will be interesting.

    Anyways my criteria for when I am judging the various builds

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    Overall
    -I'll be starting with 3 in each. Depending on various factors it will go up or down
    -I do enjoy backstories and other things of that nature which adds flesh to stats. They turn some numbers into a NPC in a future campaign.

    Originality
    How different is it compared to the other entries
    How does it use the abilities granted in a unique or interesting way
    Is the fluff coherent, does the character make any sort of sense

    Power
    How does it fair at each 5 level bracket. Is the build valid early. Can it hold its own late in the game.
    How effective at buffs, and general combat is the character.
    Can he go it alone, and how well would he mesh with a party

    Elegance
    Does anything feel tacked on. Does it make sense for character progression.
    Is there an overuse of multiclassing, strange progression through classes.
    How well does it all blend into a build. Does it make a straight line or a curving road

    Use of Secret Ingredient
    When do you get into the class.
    How well incorporated it is into the full build
    Is it underused, used poorly, not the major focus, or just not fun.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Vknight View Post
    *Clears Throat*
    To judge this will be interesting.

    Anyways my criteria for when I am judging the various builds
    I don't have any really good ideas, but I'm pretty familiar with the class. Since it doesn't look like it'll be 16+ entries, I'll throw in my hat as well.

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    Overall
    *Like everyone else, you start with a 3 in each catagory
    *You don't need to have a backstory element for everything you do, just for the important things, like class or feat chains, or any ACFs
    *Eberron has a distinct flavor, but there will be no docking for going somewhere else with the class

    Originality
    *I realize that you have no idea what other people will do ahead of time, so I'm not going to be comparing it to the rest of the crowd
    *Instead, I will compare your character to classic crafter/ RMM builds
    *The classes suggested in the PrC itself will not be thought of as original unless you can do something unique with it

    Power
    *Its a 8/10 casting class, power is a word tossed around. I don't want people to say "It has 9s, its powerful"
    * Rather, I will judge the suggested unique combinations and strategies that are possible with just that build, or limited to a certain build group. If your Build has unique abilities that add power to the typical caster, that is what I judge
    *Keep in mind that power isn't just in terms of combat. Its the character's overall ability to solve and complete encounters at maximum efficiency

    Elegance
    *Did you manage to make the most of feat taxes? Or did you just take Human for the bonus feat and call it good?
    * Elegance is the flow of the character, are the abilities gained at a level when they matter? Or do they come in too late for me to care.
    *Did you meet all prereqs? Does your build use any shady interpretations of RAW? Do you abuse anything like magical traps?

    Use of Secret Ingredient
    *Are the abilties of the class relevent at the level you gain them?
    *Is the character built around the class? Or is the class just there to get the casting?
    *How many of the class features do you utilize above their normal benefits?
    *Do you take all 10 levels of the PrC? Why(Besides the fact that its the class for this competition?)
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Dang, original idea already is having trouble. I found a variation that will work but maybe loses some "cool" points, so I'll still probably have an entry... But man, I want to get this first idea to work!
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    Quote Originally Posted by Darrin View Post
    I was arguing that RAI makes more sense... the designer intended the type to change to Construct, with the Living Construct subtype. In this case, I'm perfectly happy with your "No Schrodinger" ruling.
    I'm not 100% sure what exactly the designer intended, but the way I've done it in the past (what I understand the rules to mean) is indeed this, you enter as a humanoid, and come out as a humanoid with the living construct subtype.

    Is this what the ruling is for the purposes of the contest? despite what MoE says, living construct isn't a type.
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    Default Re: Iron Chef Optimization Challenge in the Playground XXXIX

    which is a graft, not a magic item, hence it doesn't take up a "slot"
    If you believe that the judges will read this as permissively as that (allowing both a graft and a pair of "battlefists" on the same hand), you are welcome to try it. That's a level of permissiveness I'm not accustomed to, either in IC or with those I've played with.
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