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  1. - Top - End - #481
    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    ESGE

    Council (orcs)
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    I have no objection to the orcs living in the city being citizens of the city, but those that live in Tregon are citizens if Tregon. They do not live in the city. Unless I suppose we are a country now?
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    TW: Broken City

    Lord Founder needs no pants to face the beasts of the world, to descend into the darkest pits of the Earth and ascend above the divine clouds!
    TW: Cape City


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    Peoples Syndicalist Federation of China

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  2. - Top - End - #482
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    To council (Orks)
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    "I believe we are. Oh, it happens so fast! I remember when we were just a city.

    On the other hand, Why not giving a new name to the Country? New Talidor would be fine by me."


    To Council (Specially EBSA)
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    How does the legal sistem currently works? Is it true that no evidence is required, that everything happens according to the jury’s feelings?

    Who approved this? Are we truly that insane?



    To SGA and EBSA[PM]
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    I will send the promised help. Will the Medico Guild and the Sausage help?
    The EBSA is included in this talks.
    I ask for permission to let troops pass through your territory; so we are able to help the Merchants. If the Lauriers grant passage right too, we shouldn’t have troubles.

    We need the permission of the Church of Neposh, and the Militia of Order and Justice. That would help us protect the Merchants better.
    We need the Council Road. Can the EBSa help us get its use?

    Finally; Merchants. Would money improve the loyalty of the city of Bell’s troops? We should offer 5 Wealth this turn, with 10 more if we win the battle.
    Can the Silversmith’s offer the 5 wealth? I will collaborate with the 10 wealth next turn should we win.

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    Military Portion
    7 MIL from Merchants.
    2 MIL from Technist's Guild
    ??? from Sausage Guild(5-6?)
    4 from Lord Wallen
    2-5 MIL from City of Bells(counts as about 8-11 MIL essentially but they are not the most loyal of troops...)
    2 ESP watching enemy movements to position troops accordingly
    4 MIL of Hosts-watch in Travelers Quarter

    ESP Portion
    4 MOR from me(depends on my negative trait...)
    4 ESP from Technists
    2 ESP from me(maybe 4...)
    0-??? from Sausage Guild
    4 from Lord Wallen
    ??? from Bloodhaven/Medico Guild
    Last edited by Ragnar Lodbroke; 2012-11-29 at 09:43 AM.

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  3. - Top - End - #483
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Council (Open Session)
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    ''Blackfists have insisted on the system of juries, who base their decisions on emotions and I expect generous bribes of the defendants, rather than truth or justice. This system, bad as it is, can’t operate, without conducting an expensive census of the City’s entire population first and making certain, that information collected is correct and not falsified. Now ESBA and Ram are supposed to spend their resources registering the population of the whole city, while Technist Guild organizes random jury selection. That fits the pattern of messes and people cleaning them up rather well, I think.''
    I saw humans get on fine without power for millennia. You used to hunt and gather, what happened to that?

  4. - Top - End - #484
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    ForzaFiori's Avatar

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Ram Revolution (D ESP 9)

    RSA (PM)
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    So, who's attacking where again? If the Gears and Blackfists attack through the Gear, the Wren and Revolutionary armies can go through Stockyards deep? Should wind up with roughly equal forces.


    Council (orcs)
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    New Talidor has a nice ring to it. So shall we make the Orcs citizens of New Talidor?


    Bloodhaven:
    It's funny that now you are crying for proof. When it was you doing to accusing, your word as a doctor was supposed to be more than enough, and you actually FOUGHT against our attempts to provide proof. As to the danger of the electrical lines, fire warnings are given when you buy them and I have still yet to see any of this PROOF that there is any form of radiation. If Everdie isn't currently forcing people into narcotics, it will be that much easier for them to bring themselves into line, since all they will need to do now is break up their monopoly. Also, I believe that the population is aware of how easier it is to stab yourself with a sword, or that bridges collapse - there are enough in the city that it is easy to become accustomed to them. Those who use opium, however, have often been tricked into it, or lied to about it's effects or addictiveness.

    Juries/Legal Issues:
    The current legal system (as set up in a deal between James and the Blackfist, with the EBSA and my council) is as follows: Juries are chosen at random from the entire city. They hear the cases brought against them, and the juries then decide both the innocence or guilt of the convicted, as well as their punishment. Judges are provided to council the jury (If they are wanted - the jury does not have to ask their opinion) and those convicted of misdemeanors may agree to take the most severe punishment on record for their crime if they plead guilty, in order to cut down on the number of trials. The result of the jury will depend on the ability of your lawyer to argue for you and convince the jury of your innocence or guilt.

    Making a trial consist of 1 person from each district would violate the agreement, and is therefor impossible. Registering the citizenry will take time, but if people are willing to let the EBSA in to do this job (perhaps with supervision if you are still concerned) it could be done quickly.

    I would not trust bloodhaven to check the citizenry polls unless the revolution or other RSA group was also checking, and I don't know that any of us have the time. As it is, the EBSA is one of the most trusted groups in the city (isn't that kinda sad?) and is perfectly suited to this job, provided people allow them to conduct a census.

    Finally, if the people of the city will allow and assist with this census, it will not be the EBSA and Revolution cleaning up the mess of the blackfists, as you try to paint it. Everyone (including the fist) would be participation in our justice system, for the first time ever. I'd honestly prefer this over James simply being able to make whatever laws he so pleased, which seems to be what he is aiming for.
    Last edited by ForzaFiori; 2012-11-29 at 12:20 PM.
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  5. - Top - End - #485
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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    To SGA [PM]
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    Silversmiths: I must insist on the money for the Mercenaries. They can be the difference between life an death.

    Heladuits: Will you be attending?

    Finally; I have a plan to destroy the enemy, but it would require the use of the neighbourhood's buildings. Can I ask permission to conduct your troops in combat? That might be the only chance we have.

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  6. - Top - End - #486
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    RSA
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    And would anyone be adverse if I sent some troops to Old Jack's run to seize anyone couriers trying to hire the Laiheim?

    Also, the Temples have 7 Mil in total, shall I sic them on Elfwatch?
    Last edited by puppyavenger; 2012-11-29 at 12:29 PM.
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    played the Space Pope in Total War 2125
    ..and the Papal States of Luna in Total War 2260


    Playing
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    The Spindleshanks Crusade in Total War: 40K

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  7. - Top - End - #487
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Ram

    ''You are comparing Vassari’s word in his area of expertise to that of Gear’s Chosen, who arrived to the Smokeyards, but a few months ago and have no idea what opium or alcohol is? To heretics of the ’’ancient temples’’, who would condemn half of the city as unrepentant sinners? To Blackfists, who just need an excuse to kill anybody representing authority?''

    ''The warnings proved to be rather ineffectual, considering all those burnt and electrocuted.''

    ''Fought against your attempts to provide proof? Hardly. When you requested second study, Blodhaven agreed to support it, merely voicing concern about the expertise of Technists Guild, which they addressed.''

    ''And you say break up monopoly? As in allow anybody, who wishes it to peddle drugs? If there is ineed a problem, that’s the best way to make it worse. You also call those who use opium to be witless idiots, who are tricked into it? You haven’t been to the Elfwatch, haven’t seen those people. Have no actual proof that it happens, except for a word of people, who have no clue. That's just repeating other's propaganda.''

    Ram & Blackfists

    ''I'd like to confirm, that you'd provide no protection to the Gear's Chosen and their allies, if they chose to act in this matter without a proper trial first.''

    Juries

    I would insist on a committee of city factions to double check both ESBA’s and Ram’s census, so nobody in the city, could claim there is possibility of fraud. If we are not doing it right, might as well not do it at all.
    Last edited by Thelonius; 2012-11-29 at 12:46 PM.
    I saw humans get on fine without power for millennia. You used to hunt and gather, what happened to that?

  8. - Top - End - #488
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

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    Don't be hasty. We should not start two wars at a time if we can avoid it.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  9. - Top - End - #489
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Ram Revolution (D ESP 9)

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    Yes, preventing people from hiring the Laiheim would be a good idea.

    As for the temples, I would also say yes. It may keep Vassari from coming down on top of us too quickly.

    Also, are the Wardens still supporting our attack? How many troops are they committing to this fight, and where will they attack?


    Bloodhaven:

    Every man in this city is capable of lying, Vassari. Yourself included. I trust no one without proof of some sort - to do so would be the height of folly. Whether people choose to read and accept the warnings is their own accord, but they must be able to know the risks. If I tell you something is dangerous, and you ignore me, it is your fault if you get hurt. If I never tell you to begin with, it is mine. See the difference?

    Juries:
    What if the council as a whole reviewed the census? Due to the way it was created, it would have representatives from across the city, meaning few of us are likely to ever cooperate and rig anything.
    Avatar by Lycunadari

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  10. - Top - End - #490
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    The Wardens

    Glancing at the reports of the public debate, Commander Tarmin shakes his head. "Politics."
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    Trusting Murska worked out great!
    Quote Originally Posted by happyturtle View Post
    A Murska without lies is like a day without sunshine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    I say we completely leave our fate in the hands of the trustworthy Murska and continue in complete safety.

  11. - Top - End - #491
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Juries

    ''Council in itself has no resources to do it, as it's power is only as much as of it's members. If they wish to contribute to the registration effort, then it would be possible.''
    I saw humans get on fine without power for millennia. You used to hunt and gather, what happened to that?

  12. - Top - End - #492
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    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    The Silversmiths Guild

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    Of course we will give the 5 temp WEL. It is the least we can do.

  13. - Top - End - #493
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Meeting in Trebon (PM)
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    "The way I see it, we've got two good options for handling the mines. Either that we both start with 50% ownership, handle any big problems like defense, labour and transport together splitting the work as seems most viable and then any improvements to the mines one of us pays for, be it surveying and constructing new ones or purchasing better machinery to the old ones, all profits go to whoever paid for it. That'd allow us to pretty much independently sell or use our goods and so on. But it's inefficient and would probably result in competition.

    Alternatively we could work it as a joint venture. I'll be negotiating with the City folks to sell what we have, you can of course do the same to any of your contacts, we work and protect the mines together and all profits we gain are split evenly. In this case I'll have to insist on gaining the first sale (1 p.Wealth from Gears Chosen for 25% of current copper output) to the Wardens for our previous contributions into making the area secure, mostly because I have to admit that we really need that money right now. And lumber required for our fortifications, transport and mines can be provided from our lumber camps at least until the Upper Circle is dealt with.

    I would prefer the latter option, but will work with either one you choose.

    As for the Chosen, they'd currently be customers, and we could purchase machinery for the mines from them or the Technists later if we decide we need it. We would also need to find expert surveyors to hire from somewhere to find more mineral veins.

    Finally, for your defensive proposal, a single larger fortification near the middle of the region is a good idea, as any larger incursion will have to be held there. But I feel that we would require several watchtowers lining the area to deter small raids, as in such terrain the fort would be unable to respond to calls for aid fast enough. Signal flares would, of course, make things more efficient.

    As for the Mercantile forts, we've noticed they don't really man them properly. A real raid against one of those forts, it's going to fall. And if it isn't burned down, I think we should take the opportunity to seize it for ourselves when that happens."
    Quotes:
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    Quote Originally Posted by lamech View Post
    Trusting Murska worked out great!
    Quote Originally Posted by happyturtle View Post
    A Murska without lies is like a day without sunshine.
    Quote Originally Posted by Xihirli View Post
    I say we completely leave our fate in the hands of the trustworthy Murska and continue in complete safety.

  14. - Top - End - #494
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    To Wardens
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    Just because I think I forgot to say earlier, and I'm writing my EOT, but I'd like to be clear that I fully accept such an offer


    RSA
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    Very well, so to summarize everything agreed this month regarding my commitments (i.e. I'm writing my EOT)

    Ram police will be allowed to pursue any criminals fleeing into my territory, and our various police forces will cooperate to capture people fleeing between neighborhoods.

    And, as there have been no objections, anyone sentenced to death without special circumstances necessitating extra consideration will be transferred to my custody to use for dangerous labour on the Network.

    I will commit 5 Mil, 3 Maj and the gilded to the main assault, and 2 Mil to capture anyone trying to get money through to the Lainheim in Old Jacks Run

    I will commit 2 wealth to aid the Wrens effort of subverting Mercantile Guild military organization

    I will have the Dreumont launch a feint into little Zachnar to draw off defending forces

    I will have the Templar's of the Mendicant Fields assault Elfwatch

    The Blackfists will provide 2 Wel to me to help with weapons research.

    Is that all?


    Dreumont (PM)
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    Excellent then, feel free to keep anything you happen to like the look of while you're in Little Zachnar, by the way.


    Mendicant Temples (PM)
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    Well, as it appears that trying to work peacefully has failed. Will you need support cleansing elfwatch? We're rather trapped for men at the moment, but we would be happy to provide help organizing and supplying your forces in their righteous mission, and to send reinforcements as soon as they're avaliable.
    Last edited by puppyavenger; 2012-11-29 at 10:21 PM.
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    played the Space Pope in Total War 2125
    ..and the Papal States of Luna in Total War 2260


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    The Gears Chosen in Total Way: Broken City

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    Darkness Fell, and with it Light

  15. - Top - End - #495
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    SGA [PM]
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    Medico Guild: ''It would make sense for Lord Wallen to command, due to his military experience, though Sausage Guild would be more experienced in dealing with this sort of foe. Perhaps Lord can also provide weapons to arm militia, for an appropriate compensation?''


    Bloodhaven to King James [PM-moral based, I'll send alteration to my EoT to include it]
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    Your Majesty,

    When you have asked for taxes, to improve the city ,we have paid the amount required [2 WEL], for as long as it was required [2 Months].

    When some in SGA voiced suspicion of your motives, we defended you, reminding them of your protection against aggression of the Wardens.

    When you have decreed to provide health care to the entire city, we have worked with you to make that dream true.

    You have heard about the threat to the Elfwatch. You may not care for the opium dens, but they are the sole source of the morphine, a substance used in the Bloodhaven clinics to numb pain. Imagine what a man a man feels, whose leg is being sawed off to stop spread of rot, or the constant suffering from the extensive burns on the body. Or many other situations, when a relief from pain would be a supreme kindness and may save lives.

    Now some lunatics threaten to take that away from the people of Sav Altulus. So I ask for king’s protection. A protection of law and justice, for the people attacked weren’t convicted of any crime, have done no discernible harm.

    Will you answer this request, your Majesty?

    Last edited by Thelonius; 2012-11-30 at 05:01 PM.
    I saw humans get on fine without power for millennia. You used to hunt and gather, what happened to that?

  16. - Top - End - #496
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    The EBSA

    May we first say that it wounds us that it is 'sad' as the Revolution has put it that we are seen as one of the most trustworthy elements of the city. We who work tirelessly, without much thanks, putting the good of the people before politics and ambition.

    This said, we are ready to start collect names for the juries, at least until a more permanent solution is created. The names will be drawn from these lists, and hopefully as more factions join and accept the verdict. Our offices will immediately begin asking for participation from their districts, and we hope to establish more Field Offices to continue this work.

    For this system to work the Wren, Blackfist, and other factions must allow for EBSA agents to have access to their districts, else they become Havens for the criminals who escape away from more regulated districts.

    Opium

    Technically, opiates are legal under the cities laws. However, we agree that the regulation and use of such drugs should be looked into.

    Wallen/SGA
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    You may use our territory for movement of troops this month.
    Last edited by Greystone; 2012-12-01 at 06:58 PM.
    She's Shona Han. Disappearing for a hundred years just means she's had a hundred years to plan. Trying to find out what happened to her is just going to draw her attention.

    Then it's a good thing Greystone can KICK REASON TO THE CURB AND GO BEYOND THE IMPOSSIBLE!
    - SurlySeraph

  17. - Top - End - #497
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Ram Revolution:

    We would like to explain our former statements: It is not due to any distrust of the EBSA that we made those statements, but because we feel it is bad that no one else can live up to such high standards. We would prefer if EVERYONE in the city were as trustworthy as the EBSA, rather than next to no one. That is what's sad, not the level of trustworthiness of the EBSA. It would be a much happier city if all could look out at the factions, and not even have to decide which factions are trustworthy, and could simply trust everyone.
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  18. - Top - End - #498
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Blackfist

    "Oh, and once again, whether opiates are legal has nothing to do with the issue. This is about what the jury thinks of this."
    Resident Vancian Apologist

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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Blackfists - Truth or Lies?

    ''I know that the Jury system was negotiated with Blackfists and as such I’m forced to accept what they are saying as something that could very well be truth.''

    ''I would like to ask for Ram and ESBA to confirm, whether Blackfists are telling the truth or lying. Would Juries make their decisions based on pure emotion and would they ignore the question of whether something is legal or not, in rendering their judgments? Are the Blackfists telling the truth or are they lying?''

    ''Because, if they are telling the truth, then I ask for the Council to repeal such abomination immediately.''
    I saw humans get on fine without power for millennia. You used to hunt and gather, what happened to that?

  20. - Top - End - #500
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    The Blackfist

    "Oh, but can the council do that? It was James, and James alone who made that decision, after all."
    Resident Vancian Apologist

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Ram Revolution:

    On the Legal System:

    Yes, that is correct. It is up to the jury entirely to decide, in each particular case, whether an action deserves punishment or not, and what the punishment is. This is due to the fact that no two instances are exactly the same, and so how can you hope to have a single law that effects every single case? You could say that murder is illegal, but what if a woman murders a rapist, or the wardens kill someone in the shattered lands? If the woman gets off of killing a rapist, then can someone else not get in trouble for killing a thief? what about a murderer? This new system takes away all those strange cases, by allowing each case to be looked at separately from any other.

    That being said, I would like to emphasis yet again that any jury that wishes may be advised by a judge provided by the EBSA on the precedence related to the case, such as whether an action is typically considered illegal, or what the usual punishments are.

    As to the council changing the process, the Council refuses to involve itself in judicial matters - that would be a breach of the checks and balances we set ourselves up on. The owner of the Prisons (currently, the Revolution) could change it, but we have an agreement with the EBSA, Blackfists, and Champions that this system is to be put in place, and are loathe to take back our word.
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

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    Just to be clear, given the current public debate, you realize the Mendicant Temples are really not the sort to peacefully arrest those they consider sinners and deliver to the Prison? Especially given that we have no forces to supervise them available.
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    played the Space Pope in Total War 2125
    ..and the Papal States of Luna in Total War 2260


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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

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    "The debates are little more than a distraction. Something to get the EBSA and Vasari to think on something other than war. And maybe even get the council angry at James."
    Resident Vancian Apologist

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Ram Revolution (D ESP 9)

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    Even though they are just distractions, the system could work for the vast majority of the city, and lets be honest - in Sav Altulas, nothing works the entire city over. It works for more people than James' pathetic excuse for a democracy, anyway.
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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

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    Ah, very well then. Well, assuming that you gentlemen can provide the expendable labour needed I should have enough manpower freed up to contribute to home defense anyway.

    Also, the Presses are warmed and the type's being set, if a runner can sent with details the second the riots begin and finish we can get those pamphlets out within the day.
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    played the Space Pope in Total War 2125
    ..and the Papal States of Luna in Total War 2260


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  26. - Top - End - #506
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Jury System

    ''If Jury decides on its emotions and doesn’t care about legality, then naturally the beautiful people will go free and most of Orks will be convicted guilty, based on prejudice against them. And what stops Jury from executing people for pay? If I arrange it to be known, that a jury that orders Mr X hanged for the crime of, well, let’s say looking at me funny, would get fat purses of coin afterwards? And I’ll naturally pay off any jury that would be set to convict me.''

    ''This is a system, where one with coin is always innocent and a poor commoner can be killed on a whim of a group of people. I don’t doubt most of Juries would rush to convict, simply to get back to work, which sustains their families, unless being on a Jury would be generously paid for. I assume by ESBA, whose Judges would sit impotently, advising and hoping they would be listened to.''
    I saw humans get on fine without power for millennia. You used to hunt and gather, what happened to that?

  27. - Top - End - #507
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    Rafinius's Avatar

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Orc Council in Tregon on Jury System

    "If the doctor speaks the truth then know that we will not submit our people to human mob rule. Neither will we see our kind in the city opressed in such way. So hear us, brothers and sisters. Our doors are open and if you want you can be judged by your own."
    Last edited by Rafinius; 2012-12-01 at 08:52 PM.
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  28. - Top - End - #508
    Colossus in the Playground
     
    Eldan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Blackfist

    "No system is perfect. And yet, I find the thought of common people deciding these less worrying than that of a single judge, or worse, a king, having all the power. All people are biased, be they judge or janitor, king or cobbler. A jury may convict people of a certain race or look more often than others. But why would a judge not do that? Foreigners. The underclass. Nobles. Women. Men. Everone has their own prejudice.
    With a dozen people in a jury, at least, they would balance each other out a bit.
    My dear opponents are often all too quick to summon up the spectre of the uneducated, biased, revengeful mob. And we usually counter that with the looming threat of the well-educated, biased, brutal, disconnected noble. People with too much power are not good people. That's why a single person can never have power, it must always belong to the group.
    If you are so afraid of the commoners, why not improve their lot? Prejudice forms along boundaries. We are dissolving those boundaries, starting with class. Hate breeds based on perceived inferiority. If everyone can make a decent living, if everyone has an education, and a stable environment, there will be less reason to hate."
    Last edited by Eldan; 2012-12-01 at 09:17 PM.
    Resident Vancian Apologist

  29. - Top - End - #509
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    ForzaFiori's Avatar

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Ram Revolution:

    If it is agreed upon by the others who were involved in the meeting, we can set up reasons to dismiss a juror from a case, such as taking bribes, being intimately involved in the case (related to the defendant(s) or person(s) pressing charges, or a victim, etc) or any others that people can suggest and can be agreed to. Jurors could also be afforded a small stipend, perhaps taken out of all those taxes James was trying to coerce people into paying a few months ago. Then you could ensure that they are there judging cases they are not biased against, and are in no rush to find a verdict.

    the Revolution also supports the Blackfists statement. For too long, the popular masses have been unfairly stereotyped, as have the upper class. By forcing the mixing of both, such as this system would do, could we not perhaps learn to actually get along for once?
    Last edited by ForzaFiori; 2012-12-01 at 09:22 PM.
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  30. - Top - End - #510
    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Kobold

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    Default Re: Total War: Broken City, Book 2

    Juries System

    ''As for reasons for judge not to do that, it would be respect for the law, a wealthy station in life and understanding that his reputation is on the line, every time he makes a decision. He would also be under oversight from ESBA, the organization fully dedicated to the principles of the law.''

    ''I don’t exactly see how prejudice against Orks is balanced by the prejudice against Ice Elves and there is an issue of how widespread said prejudice is.''

    ''An institution of such safeguards as Ram described would be a first step into making this system work. If Judges would have power to assemble a fair Jury, then justice could indeed be served.''

    ''As for the taxes to pay for the stipend for the Jurors, Bloodhaven is prepared to bear the burden for the benefit of the city, as we have done before. Somebody must. Might as well be the fools, who believe in this nation.''
    I saw humans get on fine without power for millennia. You used to hunt and gather, what happened to that?

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