Explain Old World of Darkness to Me

[The Glyphstone]

I have encountered this, too. I think it stems partly from the fact that A) the setting sits around and tells you, in terrible stereotype format, how that faction is, no buts, and B) oWoD players tend to submit characters like "I have a Son of Ether with an iron man suit who is also kinfolk to the last of the White Howlers and his best friends is a tszimisce vampire named Screamin' Ted" and STs slowly build up a sort of rage, and C) The Cam was super strict about what it allowed but was hopelessly corrupt and took bribes and would "kill" groups one or two cities away because of the actions of another. So much so that a lot of the STs just up and quit and made their own "official" group, with blackjack and hookers.

For the record, the only time I've ever said "no" was when it blatantly contradicted anything on the list I was given, which, admittedly, had some weird things on it. Like "no female Sons of Ether," "no Camarilla Uktena," "no Verbena Kuei-jin," and "no Mokolé." (But again, I just like Mokolé; I ended up running a side-group just for them for a little while until one of the other STs noticed and approved and muscled it through, citing "the game is set in a small town in a Florida swamp.")

AH! That's D) WoD games can have upwards to 6 to 7 STs in the same area. They all have to vote on your character and they all have different tastes. It's like trying to get oWoD Mages agree on what they think reality is.

This is one of many reasons I moved to nWoD, a lot of those metaplot-PCs can't really be there anymore. And I'm the only ST, so I can approve Iron Man mages who punk around with Vampires all day. >_>

Why would you have multiple primary STs for OWoD (assuming 1 per supernatural type), but only one primary ST to run all the NWoD venues?

Though I have heard so many horrors stories about the wild-west days of the early Cam (from people who lived through it), it's almost funny. Not sure if the current system of a banned/restricted list longer than the tax code is better, but it does limit the stupid.

[hiryuu]

Why would you have multiple primary STs for OWoD (assuming 1 per supernatural type), but only one primary ST to run all the NWoD venues?

Because in my area, when I said I wanted to run nWoD I got precisely four people (which is awesome, by the way, set in Detroit, I have a Sin-Eater, a Vampire, a Werewolf, and mortal Hunter, it works and it's amazing). The only nWoD list with any length is Changeling, and it has all the exact same people who are on the Vampire: the Masquerade list. Call me crazy, but I can't fire up the gumption to run a Lost game with all the same crowd who plays Masquerade near me.

[Morty]

The enemy in OWoD Mage is Order, not Science, and only an over-emphasis on Order to boot. A little is good; most of the traditions have rules and structures. Too much is stifling. Just as a little disorder is good, but too much causes everything to fall apart.

The problem is that "too much Order" translates to "a world where your average non-Mage can wake up in the morning with reasonable hopes of not being eaten by a dragon" as far as the Traditions are concerned. And everyone who enjoys a world where things happen in a logical manner and not because someone thinks they should is a couch potato.

[GammaPaladin]

This misconception comes from the place where it says that banality is about creativity right there on page 66 of the core book. And that trying to understand how the universe around you works is dumb and boring.

But yeah. Not a big fan of the anti-science slant of the whole thing when scientists are, you know. Awesome, creative people who would jump for joy at the idea of fairies.

I know it says that it's about creativity, but it's kind of a matter of "talk is cheap", in that mechanically, and in the majority of places where they're describing it in concrete terms rather than just labeling it, the statement is contradicted entirely.

Some scientists might jump for joy at proof of the existence of fairies, but the fact that they need proof is what makes them banal ;)

You could even go so far as to say that banality == skepticism, full stop. And scientists must be skeptics. The entire scientific method relies on skepticism.

[Cirrylius]

And, of course, there are times when it backfires; in OWoD, America demonstrating that the moon was nothing but a barren lump of airless rock resulted in a flood of Glamor that cracked open Arcadia itself as virtually every man, woman, and child on earth thought "HOLY S**T WE'RE ON THE MOTHERF*****G MOON" in tandem.

The (mostly) hateful relationship that science has with magic in the OWoD has more to do with inflexibility of paradigm than anything else. Non-awakened science discovers absolute rules, and when rules are absolute, anything that would break them becomes impossible (or at least much harder). Faeries, in particular, since they live a dual life between what's real/not real, suffer when examined critically because their imaginary/impossible aspects start to fail when exposed to the everyday laws of creation.

It's possible to think of everyday science in the OWoD as a big, wonderful room full of sculptures and murals that's gradually added to year after year. As the room gets more crowded, though, there's less room for anything that doesn't accomodate the art; it gets harder to move around. Eventually, anyone who's not the right size or shape to get around between the exhibits has to squeeze their way through forcefully, damaging either themselves or the works, and the builders and the visitors become more hostile towards each other as their goals are made more difficult. And God help you if the artists think you'd would make a good addition to the art, 'cause that means getting slapped into a cage or a glass enclosure and left to starve or suffocate. The artwork may be beautiful and meaningful, but it by definition makes it so you have no choice but to accomodate it.

[hiryuu]

And, of course, there are times when it backfires; in OWoD, America demonstrating that the moon was nothing but a barren lump of airless rock resulted in a flood of Glamor that cracked open Arcadia itself as virtually every man, woman, and child on earth thought "HOLY S**T WE'RE ON THE MOTHERF*****G MOON" in tandem.

Which is what every scientific discovery should do.

The (mostly) hateful relationship that science has with magic in the OWoD has more to do with inflexibility of paradigm than anything else. Non-awakened science discovers absolute rules, and when rules are absolute, anything that would break them becomes impossible (or at least much harder).

Which is utterly backwards from how science actually works. It's in constant flux, changing and updating and modifying itself and admitting its mistakes.

The adversarial nature of science and magic in oWoD was a conscious design decision, and the setting was built around that concept. Even when it doesn't work as intended. Especially when they started expounding and hammering on the idea that scientific inquiry is somehow inimical to imagination. They wrote a whole book about it. Like, that's what the book was about. Teachers and concerned sympathetic onlookers were the BAD GUYS.

Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing in and of itself. Werewolves are essentially the bad guys, only because their kids are brainwashed psychopaths intent on tearing down the system so that humans could live, frightened, in caves again. Their "bad guys," of course, are pokémon, murderous frat boys, fast food chains, a Saturday morning cartoon show, and perfume salesmen.

This would be awesome were it not for the fact that you're supposed to take this seriously.

Anyway. Tangenting hard.

Faeries, in particular, since they live a dual life between what's real/not real, suffer when examined critically because their imaginary/impossible aspects start to fail when exposed to the everyday laws of creation.

Honestly they could have explained all of this without completely misunderstanding the process of science and casting it as the bad guy. Just saying that they don't live on matter as we know it, needing human husks to survive, and then indicating that over time, they think less like an alien and more like a human and slowly lose their ability to interact with that world because they are stuck in human form (which actually leaves a big wide game open to play with and accomplishes a lot; this might how I next run The Lost). nWoD actually does this by turning science into something that the Seers had a hand in helping get big, but that it got away from them now and it threatens to awaken the masses through understanding, growth, and change.

It's possible to think of everyday science in the OWoD as a big, wonderful room full of sculptures and murals that's gradually added to year after year. As the room gets more crowded, though, there's less room for anything that doesn't accomodate the art; it gets harder to move around. Eventually, anyone who's not the right size or shape to get around between the exhibits has to squeeze their way through forcefully, damaging either themselves or the works, and the builders and the visitors become more hostile towards each other as their goals are made more difficult. And God help you if the artists think you'd would make a good addition to the art, 'cause that means getting slapped into a cage or a glass enclosure and left to starve or suffocate. The artwork may be beautiful and meaningful, but it by definition makes it so you have no choice but to accomodate it.

Which means the system and setting punishes you for, say, reading, testing anything, challenging yourself, being imaginative, and expanding your horizons. It does the exact opposite of what it means to do.

A better analogy for how science should work is labeling the statues that are already there, and somewhere between oWoD and nWoD they realized this.

Not saying it's better or worse, just different. I just don't like the way oWoD portrays the process of science. It's trying to be a set of philosophical games, but it gets even its own philosophy wrong and winds up just going "man, what if our hands are actually dinosaurs?" And that's portrayed as a personal strength rather than a useless question.

[The Glyphstone]

Not that I'm saying that's a bad thing in and of itself. Werewolves are essentially the bad guys, only because their kids are brainwashed psychopaths intent on tearing down the system so that humans could live, frightened, in caves again. Their "bad guys," of course, are pokémon, murderous frat boys, fast food chains, a Saturday morning cartoon show, and perfume salesmen.

I don't know much about Apocalypse...I think Black Spiral Dancers are the 'murderous frat boys', but Pentex is the only other villain I know. Who's what in your hilarious analogy?

Not saying it's better or worse, just different. I just don't like the way oWoD portrays the process of science. It's trying to be a set of philosophical games, but it gets even its own philosophy wrong and winds up just going "man, what if our hands are actually dinosaurs?" And that's portrayed as a personal strength rather than a useful question.

Considering the quantities of cocaine and other drugs that were ingested during the writing of the OWoD books, this is hardly surprising.

[hiryuu]

I don't know much about Apocalypse...I think Black Spiral Dancers are the 'murderous frat boys', but Pentex is the only other villain I know. Who's what in your hilarious analogy?

That's all Pentex: There are literally evil perfume salesmen (the perfume slowly turns the user into a sex-crazed fomori), evil pokémon shows (they psychically influence the viewer into starting riots at department stores that kill people), and there are frat boys sponsored by Pentex's beer division who murder people with hazing - King Distilleries. O'Tolley's is a fast food chain where eating there makes you open to bane possession. There is also that cartoon show about the Pentex mercs who hunt the evil laser-eyed werewolves and exist to sell dangerous toys to children. Action Bill, part of Avalon Toys. They even have the toys pumped through fomori guts so they straight up damage a kid's personal sense of self worth. Endron makes gasoline that turns your car into a smoke-spewing gas-guzzling monster.

Also there are evil mind controlling video games that turn kids into mass-shooters.

[The Glyphstone]

What about Black Dog Games?

[Chainsaw Hobbit]

Honestly, I like OWoD's approach to science. I don't think I agree with it, but I enjoy the idea.

[Cirrylius]

Which is utterly backwards from how science actually works. It's in constant flux, changing and updating and modifying itself and admitting its mistakes.

Keep in mind that the Real World Paradigm was crafted by the Technocracy, bottom to top. What would be flux, change, and modification IRL is in the OWoD just a gradual trickling down of watered-down (or accidentally misunderstood by sleeper scientists) ideas leaked from the Conventions as determined by the Timetable. Science isn't experimental, on the heights; it's monolithic, albeit subtle and elegant with regards to anything that doesn't involve spirit. In inception, it was designed to be a perfectly impartial, non-subjective means of making the world stable by being deliberately exclusive to everything that disagreed with it. It was meant to be Truth, rather than Beauty, to deliberately make dangerous entities and phenomena impossible for humanity's benefit; the Traditions, OTOH, are typically pretty open to other paradigms, even if they do define them in terms of their own worldview. Therefore, science as understood in the OWoD is meant to be a (de facto) destructive, limiting force compared to other conceptual builds. Unfortunately, it's also morally neutral, being nothing but a point of view, which means that you have to rail and rave at the Technocracy itself rather than the scientific method in general.

[Dogbert]

OP, my 2 cents:

The basic differences between nWoD and oWoD:

- oWoD games are based on conflict, and half the splats include global-scale conflicts and ages-long conspiracies (which makes it great for cloak&dagger games).
- Said setting conflicts are all full of inconsistencies that make them incompatible with the other splats (most splats are "the secret masters of the world", but no one knows about them (not even the other splats) ).
- Expect squick in some of the splats, and some of them will be downright offensive (like the infamous gypsies book).
- oWoD doesn't penalize characters for engaging in combat.
- While both old and new WoD splats are divided by tiers of power, all tiers of oWoD are considerably more beefed up and there are considerably less trap options (which gives you more variety of valid character builds rather than nWoD's "you need to have mental powers to 1-hit the opposition before they 1-hit you with theirs").
- oWoD can easily be exploited during chargen due to its trad-style Flaws system which allowed you to pick all kind of "roleplay flaws" that didn't have any real effect in game.
- oVampires were the secret masters of the world and Al Pacino's devil.
- oWerewolves weren't a joke, and were as strong as they were prejudiced (which is to say, the meanest killing machines around).
- oMage was about a war for shaping reality, plurality, and about how all roads lead to Rome (at least until WW changed all creative staff for Revised and wrecked the game).
- oChangeling was about melancholic stories about the end of innocence with hints of Pan's Labyrinth.
- Wraith was misery tourism alternating between a physical world you could barely interact with and a surreal land of the dead woven out of the same stuff you'd see in Pink Floyd's The Wall's animated shorts (amazing reading, but a piece of the brightest art that no one would want to play).
- oHunters were angel-powered Daleks on a racial purity crusade... just like Vigil, however, they were on the bottom of the food chain (fortunately for everyone)
- oDemon was the point at which WoD officially jumped the shark and tried to usurp oVampire's niche, but I heard they were on Mage's tier of power.

I hope that helps.

[The Glyphstone]

OP, my 2 cents:

The basic differences between nWoD and oWoD:

- oWoD games are based on conflict, and half the splats include global-scale conflicts and ages-long conspiracies (which makes it great for cloak&dagger games).
- Said setting conflicts are all full of inconsistencies that make them incompatible with the other splats (most splats are "the secret masters of the world", but no one knows about them (not even the other splats) ).
- Expect squick in some of the splats, and some of them will be downright offensive (like the infamous gypsies book).
- oWoD doesn't penalize characters for engaging in combat.
- While both old and new WoD splats are divided by tiers of power, all tiers of nWoD are considerably more beefed up and there are considerably less trap options (which gives you more variety of valid character builds rather than nWoD's "you need to have mental powers to 1-hit the opposition before they 1-hit you with theirs").
- oWoD can easily be exploited during chargen due to its trad-style Flaws system which allowed you to pick all kind of "roleplay flaws" that didn't have any real effect in game.
- oVampires were the secret masters of the world and Al Pacino's devil.
- oWerewolves weren't a joke, and were as strong as they were prejudiced (which is to say, the meanest killing machines around).
- oMage was about a war for shaping reality, plurality, and about how all roads lead to Rome (at least until WW changed all creative staff for Revised and wrecked the game).
- oChangeling was about melancholic stories about the end of innocence with hints of Pan's Labyrinth.
- Wraith was misery tourism alternating between a physical world you could barely interact with and a surreal land of the dead woven out of the same stuff you'd see in Pink Floyd's The Wall's animated shorts (amazing reading, but a piece of the brightest art that no one would want to play).
- oHunters were angel-powered Daleks on a racial purity crusade... just like Vigil, however, they were on the bottom of the food chain (fortunately for everyone)
- oDemon was the point at which WoD officially jumped the shark and tried to usurp oVampire's niche, but I heard they were on Mage's tier of power.

I hope that helps.

If the Masquerade Translation Guide is any indication, I'd say NWoD PCs (vampires, at least) got massively watered down rather than beefed up - the Requiem rewrites of Masquerade disciplines are almost all insanely overpowered compared to existing ones. One additional point related to what you said here:

-In OWoD, Physical actions are king because of Celerity allowing multiple actions. Comparatively, NWoD favors the equivalent of save-or-dies/scene-long crowd control because everyone only gets one action (in most cases) anyways. Both want loads of Initiative.

[comicshorse]

If the Masquerade Translation Guide is any indication, I'd say NWoD PCs (vampires, at least) got massively watered down rather than beefed up - the Requiem rewrites of Masquerade disciplines are almost all insanely overpowered compared to existing ones. One additional point related to what you said here:

Having played both New and Old I'd agree and say Old Vampire Disciplines were generally more powerful than New

[Dogbert]

If the Masquerade Translation Guide is any indication, I'd say NWoD PCs (vampires, at least) got massively watered down rather than beefed up

Sorry, that was a typo, yeah I meant oWoD's splats were more beefed up.