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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    GreenSorcererElf

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    Default Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Being a sorcerer in Pathfinder in a demon/devil-focused campaign is tough as hell since they are immune to half of what I can do and resist the other half. How can magic-users fight demons/devils effectively?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    Lord_Gareth's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Ah, I remember when I had this problem. You may want to sit down, you're about to hear something that may shock you as it once shocked me.

    Blasting sucks.

    No, really. Dealing direct damage may be the least-useful thing you can do as a spellcaster, even in the absence of such resistances and immunities. If you want to fight demons and devils, you do it with control spells like Grease or Wall of Iron, by buffing your allies, by summoning creatures to fight for you. And all of these spells are better for any combat than blasting will ever be. I suggest investing in some non-blasting options.

    You can also ask your DM about Searing Spell (D&D 3.5, Sandstorm) if you REALLY want to blast.


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    Answerer's Avatar

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Mostly by avoiding damage spells; while Sorcerers can be very good blasters, it's non-trivial and the rest of your team can handle damage-dealing anyway. Your job is to make the fiends' lives miserable by denying them any condition that could be construed as "favorable." Buff your allies, remove enemies' buffs and pile on debuffs of your own, and prevent them from bringing their own magic to bear.

    Focus on SR: No save-or-suck, or better suck-and-save-or-suck-more spells, like grease, glitterdust, solid fog, etc. (I know Pathfinder nerfed grease and glitterdust, but the former, at least, is still quite potent; not sure on the exact changes to glitterdust). Focus on the buffs, like haste (mostly haste, at least in Core). Be ready to dispel them. Etc.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    As LG and Answerer have said, a well-used caster makes the experience of fighting him and his allies an unbearably unpleasant one. Summoning is also a viable option.
    Last edited by gkathellar; 2012-11-04 at 06:34 PM.
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    Ah, I remember when I had this problem. You may want to sit down, you're about to hear something that may shock you as it once shocked me.

    Blasting sucks.

    No, really. Dealing direct damage may be the least-useful thing you can do as a spellcaster, even in the absence of such resistances and immunities. If you want to fight demons and devils, you do it with control spells like Grease or Wall of Iron, by buffing your allies, by summoning creatures to fight for you. And all of these spells are better for any combat than blasting will ever be. I suggest investing in some non-blasting options.

    You can also ask your DM about Searing Spell (D&D 3.5, Sandstorm) if you REALLY want to blast.
    A real shame, because blasting is pretty cool flavor wise.

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    RedWizardGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by Esser-Z View Post
    A real shame, because blasting is pretty cool flavor wise.
    It simply takes more optimization to do better then other roles.

    Take, for example, a Crossblooded Dragon/Primal sorcerer with Magical Lineage and Wayang Spellhunter specifying Scorching Ray. He casts Scorching Ray as a level 2 spell doing 6d6+12 per ray. The only problem is immunity and resist, which can be solved by asking for Searing Spell as others have mentioned.

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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    human tattooed sorcerer crossblooded orc+brutal

    traits- magical lineage (magic missile) & gifted adept(magic missile)

    level 1
    spell focus (evocation)
    varisian tattoo (evocation)
    spell specialization(magic missile)

    level 3
    empower spell <-- so next level you can use those 2nd level slots

    level 5
    spell focus conjuration

    level 7
    augment summon <-- bloodline feat
    intensify spell

    level 9
    ferocious summons <-- since you gained the orc subtype

    level 11
    superior summoning



    magic missile damage scaling
    1 - 3d4+8
    3- 4d4+10
    4- 1st 4d4+10, 2nd 4d4+10 +50%
    5- 1st 5d4+12, 2nd 5d4+12 +50%
    6- here you utilize 3rd level slots with empowered piercing scream
    7- 1st 6d4+14, 2nd 5d4+12 +50%, 3rd 6d4+14 +50%
    9- 1st 7d4+16, 2nd 5d4+12 +50%, 3rd 7d4+16 +50%


    basically I made this character to sorta be another version of a warlock for pathfinder.

    I skin the magic missiles to look like eldritch blasts, he gets bat wings at level 9, and I plan to pick spells like black tentacles, dispel magic, etc...

    eventually he becomes VERY good at summoning.

    augmented, ferocious summons last a long time
    superior summoning at 11 gives you even more tough fodder
    the abyssal bloodlines, added summons at 15 gives you even more tough fodder

    basically you throw out some summons, lay down a battle field control (grease, black tentacles, etc..), then blast away with your eldritch beam (magic missile) arsenal

    and buy rods of piercing spell to help you overcome SR
    Last edited by Blyte; 2012-11-04 at 08:42 PM.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Try buffing allies and using SR no spells. Web, haste, solid fog, wall of force, etc. If you're still fighting lesser demons without SR then hitting multiple at once is still useful, and fire resistance is not the same as fire immunity. Those same spells tend to affect multiple creatures and tend to be useful against most kinds of foes so they're good to always know and so they tend to be the best sorcerer/wizard spells overall as well.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2012-11-04 at 09:51 PM.
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Quote Originally Posted by ericgrau View Post
    Try buffing allies and using SR no spells. Web, haste, solid fog, wall of force, etc. If you're still fighting lesser demons without SR then hitting multiple at once is still useful, and fire resistance is not the same as fire immunity. Those same spells tend to affect multiple creatures and tend to be useful against most kinds of foes so they're good to always know and so they tend to be the best sorcerer/wizard spells overall as well.
    Seconded. This is good advice for any Sorcerer.


    If you're going to deal damage, you need some kind of energy substitution, and access to obscure damage types (acid, sonic, force). Everything in the book resists Fire and Cold. The heirarchy is something like (in ascending order of desirability) Fire<Cold<<Electricity<Acid<Sonic<Force<Untyped. This will prevent your damage from being resisted or ignored.

    You also need optimization, you need to stack damage-sources like a munchkin if you want to compete with the Fighter in DPS. The words "Saving Throw: Reflex Half" will be the bane of your existence. Also, Empower Spell is far more efficient than Maximize. This will make your damage big and reliable.

    You need SR: No tactics, which isn't as easy as in 3.5, where you could just toss Orbs of X at Touch AC. This is what your battlefield control does best. "SR: No, Saving Throw: None, No attack roll" is your holy grail. Find it at all costs. (at best you usually still have to make a Touch Attack. So keep that Dex up).

    Apply Dazing Spell to big AoEs. Cripple encounters. Make crowds bask in the glory of your broken metamagic. This might actually make Spell Focus (Evocation) worth it.
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-11-04 at 10:34 PM.
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    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Please note that: buffing, spell with no Save and no SR, summoning, are solid advices for almost any kind of caster... exactly because you can face enemies like demons and the like.
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    Ogre in the Playground
     
    Imp

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Grease & Walls may not work too great vs. outsiders, given how many of them can teleport or fly. YMMV.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Hokay, some resources...
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=74801

    Conjuration is an excellent spell school to get to know. SR: No for the most part. Acid Arrow is SR: No and hits a touch AC. If it isn't immune or highly resistant to Acid, make them wish they were. Not the best option, but not the worst. Most of Conjuration's other effects are control spells, but make use of them. At worst, they block out line of sight and/or line of effect, which protects you and your party.
    Illusions are useful, but plenty enough outsiders get True Seeing later, which is the hard counter for the Illusion school. But they are handy spells to get to know. However, most Demons and other outsiders will have high Will saves, and usually high saves in general. Still, if you are good at the Illusion Shell Game it can be used to protect you and you're party, or set up opportunities and ambushes if you are clever.

    There is a metamagic feat for bypassing Spell Resistance (grants a +5 to the roll, +1 Level adjustment, either piercing or penetrating spell or something like that), there are also two passive feats which can grant +4 to the roll.

    Summons are Conjuration spells. Summons can get you other Outsiders who can either compliment you, or are built to fight other Outsiders.
    Here is an excellent guide on Summoning using the Summon Monster line of spells. If you don't have a spell to deal with a Demon, summon something that does.
    Mephits and Shadow Demons are awesome.
    The same rules mostly apply to Planar Binding as well as it's lesser and greater variants.
    http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=184592
    If you want a quick reference guide to the spell like abilities of summon monsters, check this google doc
    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...hBk/edit?pli=1

    Lastly, try to be prepared, know your enemies. High knowledge scores typically pay off. If someone in the party does not have high enough knowledge scores, remember that you can always retreat, try to track down someone with knowledge of the creature, and return with different strategy and tactics. You're not a Wizard so you can't just rearrange spells to suit, but you can come back with some scrolls (not just arcane either) or other items, a fresh companion thanks to planar binding, along with fresh hit points and buffs. Never underestimate the power of even an hour or two of preparation can make. Retreat is a viable and strategic option, don't be afraid to exercise it in order to defeat your demon foe/s.

    Good hunting.

    EDIT:
    I'm also going to recommend Dazing Spell, especially as Daze and Stun are difficult to be outright immune to. However, most outsiders will have high saves, and boosting your DC's is kind of limited to stats and caster level increases.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2012-11-05 at 01:36 PM.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Pathfinder Sorcerers vs. Demons

    Seconding everyone.

    Blasting seems cool because its flashy, but not going to do much for you in a lot of fights.


    IF you are staying blaster - metamagic feats that change the type of damage. If they are immune to fire, cold and acid, use electicity.

    Metamagic rods that do the same.

    Make sure you know a variety of damage-type blast spells.

    Take LOTSSSSSSS of SPell Pen. you need all the spell pen you can get. Get school focus feats as well, **** gets dodgey.


    Personally I'd say go for a battlefield control build.
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