Wood Elf

[TopCheese]

Ok let me get this straight..

Drop initiative and gain Perception check as your initiative roll... For a level 11 character...

5 (1/2 level)
5 (perception training)
5 (wis mod)
2 (racial)
2 (background)
2 (theme... I think iron wolf theme?)
2 (feat bonus)
1 (item bonus)

= +24 to initative.

This is without trying much... What's the highest Perception Check a level 11 wood elf can get? Is there a paragon path or something weird I'm missing?

[Ashdate]

This is without trying much... What's the highest Perception Check a level 11 wood elf can get? Is there a paragon path or something weird I'm missing?

Here's my best stab at an "optimized" level 11 perception check:

Basics:
Level 11: +5
Training: +5
Racial (Wood Elf): +4 (with Twilight Guardian PP)
22 Wisdom Stat: +6
Class: Druid
Background (various): +2
Theme (various) +2
Paragon Path: Twilight Guardian (elf)

Feats:
Born of the Elements, Elemental Companion, Elemental Conduit: +2 power bonus
Mark of Detection: roll twice for perception, keep best result
Hunting Wolf Form (paragon): +5 feat bonus

Items:
Headband of Perception (Paragon): +3 item bonus

Ardent Companion with Mantle of Clarity, 22 Wis, and Clarified Instincts feat: +6 bonus

= +40 Perception Check, roll twice

I could be missing other things, but that's probably a good first stab.

[Excession]

Throw in a multiclass to something arcane and a White-Eyed Crow familiar. Now you can't be surprised.

[TopCheese]

Holy Crap

+40, roll twice and take best result, and can't be surprised....

Nice...


So a "initiative roll" of 41 to 60 at level 11.... Yeah I'm sure that guy is going first everytime..

Soo if I chose Bard as my MC for the White Eyed Crow... I could take a power that let's me give an ally an action.

Would that make the ally not surprised for purposes of the battle? He would have acted just not on his turn. Would he get a turn in the surprise round (outside of the attack the Bard ability gave him).

I could see this guy using that tactic on an ally right next to an enemy (that surprised the party) but either rolled low or can't act on their turn. Or he does something else on his turn *shrug*.

Now to find a DM that won't throw a book at me... Haha nah

[Ashdate]

Throw in a multiclass to something arcane and a White-Eyed Crow familiar. Now you can't be surprised.

If you're getting surprised on a Passive Perception check of 40+ at level 11, then I would ask the DM to explain exactly how something is sneaking up on you.

Per RAW, a surprised creature cannot take actions, so even if your DM allowed them to make an attack, they still can't take their own action, and still grant combat advantage.

[TopCheese]

If you're getting surprised on a Passive Perception check of 40+ at level 11, then I would ask the DM to explain exactly how something is sneaking up on you.

Per RAW, a surprised creature cannot take actions, so even if your DM allowed them to make an attack, they still can't take their own action, and still grant combat advantage.

So the questions are...

Can the Bard's power even allow that character to do something? Since the ally is surprised and the power allows them to take a specific action (free action to melee basic attack, charge, etc).

Should it be in the rules that by allowing the creature to act, it is no longer surprised? (Due to you pointing out and telling them to get their butt in gear).

My ideas on this

I see it making sense that if a power allows you to act, you are no longer surprised. I mean if someone uses some magical effect on you to move and attack... You would able to react and such.

If a player of mine did this I would allow it... They would still go last in the surprise round but they would get a turn.

Of course this may get a bit iffy when using an action point but it should hurt anything.

*shrug*

[Ashdate]

So the questions are...

Can the Bard's power even allow that character to do something? Since the ally is surprised and the power allows them to take a specific action (free action to melee basic attack, charge, etc).

By RAW, yes; they could take (for example) the free basic melee attack the warlord/bard grants. But the creature would still be "surprised". I would think about it (logically) like this:

The Wood Elf and party are venturing in the woods, when the Elf's ears prick up: they're walking into an ambush! "Ranger!", the elf yells, "there's orcs in the trees!" The ranger is surprised, but quickly takes a shot, plugging an orc in the chest with an arrow. However, he's still so startled that he can't move out of the way of the enemies own arrows...

Ultimately as a DM, it's your own call tho. I doubt it would tip the scales too far in any direction.

[Excession]

Most powers that let an ally attack IIRC, specify that the attack is a free action. Free still counts as an action, so a character that can't take actions won't be able to do it.

[TopCheese]

Most powers that let an ally attack IIRC, specify that the attack is a free action. Free still counts as an action, so a character that can't take actions won't be able to do it.

See that is what I was thinking.

However my line of thought on such a huge Perception roll (or passive perception) is that you figure out there is an ambush before the ambush happens... Thus you go first (even before the ambushers attack) and you are able to (with say the Bard's power?) let an ally know they are about to be surprised before the combat begins... Thus they aren't surprised anymore since they are able to act before the ambush begins.

Kinda like if one of the enemies called out to the PC's right before the ambush... The party wouldn't be surprised anymore, the difference is that a PC is doing it.

*Shrug* this is more of a thought exercise than something needed for a game. Don't get me wrong I' sure one of my players may try something like this -_-;;; (crafty little buggers).

[Alan_Pehnereas]

I need to throw this in here!

Two of the suggestions in here are;

Born of the Elements, Elemental Companion, Elemental Conduit: +2 power bonus

AND

Throw in a multiclass to something arcane and a White-Eyed Crow familiar. Now you can't be surprised.

Why do I bring this up?

Elemental Companion [Elemental Companion]
You fashion a companion from
raw elemental substance. The companion aids you
in your endeavors when called. (See page 146 for a
selection of elemental companions.)
Prerequisite: Born of the Elements feat, must not
have the Arcane Familiar feat
Benefit: You gain an elemental companion. For each elemental companion feat you have beyond this one, your elemental companion gains a + 1 bonus to all defenses.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but it's one or the other. :/

[TheKoalaNxtDoor]

^Welp, like Ashdate mentioned, if things are sneaking up on you at +40 passive perception, there's a probelm. It's not a huge loss really.

[OracleofWuffing]

If you're getting surprised on a Passive Perception check of 40+ at level 11, then I would ask the DM to explain exactly how something is sneaking up on you.

Well, since it is mostly thought exercise, I'm actually kinda curious to see what an "optimized" stealth build would look like. I mean, I know, Encounter Design Does Not Work That Way, but why not have the unstoppable meet the immovable?