Necrons vs Daleks

[Soras Teva Gee]

Also the Daleks are all dead hasn't been a thing for the last 3 seasons, though I will admit it was horribly overused during the Davies run.

Twice is horribly overused?

I barely even count the single Dalek case personally, and think the writers figured that too. You didn't really think just one escaped did you? So you really only have from the Emperor to the Cult of Skaro. The Cult explicitly escaped so its hardly "oh they're all dead"

[1dominator]

For a bunch with genius level int scores the Daleks always struck me as incredibly thick.

Also I thought the necrons serve the C'tan.

[shadow_archmagi]

For a bunch with genius level int scores the Daleks always struck me as incredibly thick.

Genius level INT scores, toddler level WIS scores.

Same goes for the Necrons, really.

EDIT: New Codex reveals that the Necrons exploded the C'tan. RETCONS for EVERYONE!

[Manga Shoggoth]

Go watch Remembrance of the Daleks.

The daleks were using anti-gravity disks for "flight" and going out in jungles long before that. It's really only in their original appearance(s) that they were limited to cities (and that was primarily due to power constraints).

The "limited to cities" and "defeated by stairs" were largely brought about by the limitations of filming people in dalek suits back in the early days of television.

[Aotrs Commander]

The daleks were using anti-gravity disks for "flight" and going out in jungles long before that. It's really only in their original appearance(s) that they were limited to cities (and that was primarily due to power constraints).

The "limited to cities" and "defeated by stairs" were largely brought about by the limitations of filming people in dalek suits back in the early days of television.

The Daleks apparently really took that one time the Forth Doctor made a crack about it to heart...

(Note that that incident was largely responsible for the popular culture myth Daleks couldn't climb stairs, and a mispercieved one at that, as the opening the Doctor was taunting them through was also one that was too small for a Dalek to fit through. They had been implied to have levitating capabilites off-screen for a long time, and also in non-TV media appeances, like comic adaptions (where they could afford to do it); in one instance as far back as the First Doctor's The Chase, a Dalek was shown to rise vertically out of sand (not saying it was well done, this being early Doctor Who, but it was done...!))

[CarpeGuitarrem]

It all boils down to one question, really...

...which one does The Doctor see as the greater threat?

[Tiki Snakes]

It all boils down to one question, really...

...which one does The Doctor see as the greater threat?

Nah. If the Doctor gets involved at all, it will be by appearing in the mopping up stage, just as the Victor starts looking around shiftily for something else to pick a fight with.

[Zahhak]

And yes, NuWho never came up with new enemies like the Silence, or the Weeping Angels, or the Vashta Nerada, or the Ood.

The Silence was one season, possibly two, the weeping angels have been in three episodes, the Vashta Nerada one, and the Ood were the enemy once (recurring yes, recurring enemy, no). They were good enemies (except the Ood), and they should have expanded atleast one of them into a recurring enemy, but they haven't. The Daleks are the only real recurring threat in Doctor Who, despite the numerous times the Doctor has said he wiped them all out.

Also the Daleks are all dead hasn't been a thing for the last 3 seasons, though I will admit it was horribly overused during the Davies run.

The Doctor has said he wiped them all since then.

[Aotrs Commander]

The Doctor has said he wiped them all since then.

I take it you're not up to date with the last two seasons, then? (In which the Daleks have come back and cheerfully re-established their Empire, after solidly putting one over the Doctor? (Victory of the Daleks/Asylum of the Daleks?))

[Dienekes]

Twice is horribly overused?

I barely even count the single Dalek case personally, and think the writers figured that too. You didn't really think just one escaped did you? So you really only have from the Emperor to the Cult of Skaro. The Cult explicitly escaped so its hardly "oh they're all dead"

Time War/Dalek episode= Daleks are all dead. 1
Bad Wolf= Insane Dalek empire shows up. All Daleks are supposedly wiped out by Rose. 2
Army of Ghosts/Doomsday= Dalek invasion, technically Cult of Skaro are shown surviving, all other Daleks sucked into the abyss. I'm gonna give it 2.5
Stolen Earth= Davros and the Dalek Empire is back, Doctor Donna wipes out the Daleks. 3.5
Victory of the Daleks= whoops looks like Donna wasn't quite so successful but now they're back, they're surprisingly shiny and they're here to say.

So 3/3.5 times the Daleks have been wiped out. Yes, that is overdone. Hell, I would say that twice is overdoing it. Have the episode Dalek (because it was awesome), and then show some of the Daleks escaping from Bad Wolf and whammo, no need to waste time introducing why some small pocket has survived their extinction.

The Silence was one season, possibly two, the weeping angels have been in three episodes, the Vashta Nerada one, and the Ood were the enemy once (recurring yes, recurring enemy, no). They were good enemies (except the Ood), and they should have expanded atleast one of them into a recurring enemy, but they haven't. The Daleks are the only real recurring threat in Doctor Who, despite the numerous times the Doctor has said he wiped them all out.

The Silence are still a threat in Doctor Who, arguably they are the big bads of the series forcing the Doctor to work in the shadows (though part of my problem with season 7 is he's not doing that, at all). Ood have been the enemy in a few episodes, though largely as minions. Also for recurring threat you're forgetting the Cybermen, and I would say 3 episodes (actually 4 but that's because it was a two-parter) does make the Angels a recurring threat.

The Doctor has said he wiped them all since then.

Ok, I guess I can see I was unclear. When I said last 3 seasons I was including season 7 which is only half done. Season 5 re-introduces the Daleks in Victory of the Daleks which re-established their empire. They have not yet been destroyed again. Though they were made to forget the Doctor, it was stupid.

[Soras Teva Gee]

So 3/3.5 times the Daleks have been wiped out. Yes, that is overdone. Hell, I would say that twice is overdoing it. Have the episode Dalek (because it was awesome), and then show some of the Daleks escaping from Bad Wolf and whammo, no need to waste time introducing why some small pocket has survived their extinction.

You specified Davies remember? Moffat did it one last time and hasn't since. For that matter as we went from Victory to Asylum with all of a glorified cameo in between including IIRC a season without Daleks. It seems like not killing them off is a better way to ensure they stay away.

And seriously at this point its more tradition that the Daleks are all wiped out to reappear later... given that happened in their very first Classic appearence.

[Manga Shoggoth]

(Note that that incident was largely responsible for the popular culture myth Daleks couldn't climb stairs, and a mispercieved one at that, as the opening the Doctor was taunting them through was also one that was too small for a Dalek to fit through. They had been implied to have levitating capabilites off-screen for a long time, and also in non-TV media appeances, like comic adaptions (where they could afford to do it); in one instance as far back as the First Doctor's The Chase, a Dalek was shown to rise vertically out of sand (not saying it was well done, this being early Doctor Who, but it was done...!))

Good grief - well back in the Hartnell days then! I only really go as far back as the late Pertwee stories (although I have read earlier novelisations). The incident I was thinking about was set on a jungle planet, and had a dalek going up some form of chimney on an anti-gravity disk - two for the price of one...

[Androgeus]

Go watch Remembrance of the Daleks.

Or if you don't want to go searching

Spoiler

Show

[SuperPanda]

Or if you don't want to go searching

Spoiler

Show

You sir EL-a-VATE the quality of this conversation.

On the greater topic, I have a strong sense that the main difference will be if we are using the Necrons and Daleks as they are implied (intended/supposed) to exist within the context of their respective settings or if we are using the Necrons and Daleks as they are displayed (shown/actualized) in their settings?

Do we go on the fluff or the crunch of Necrons (and seeing as I'm somewhat weak on my warhammer credentials is there much discrepancy there)?

Do we use what the Daleks are definately capable of, or what they actually do? For being an implacable race of omnicidal geniuses they do seem to have idiot balls strapped into their cybernetics.

[Zahhak]

I take it you're not up to date with the last two seasons, then? (In which the Daleks have come back and cheerfully re-established their Empire, after solidly putting one over the Doctor? (Victory of the Daleks/Asylum of the Daleks?))

I don't remember the Daleks surviving Victory of the Daleks, and I don't even know where the Daleks in Asylum of the Daleks came from.

The Silence are still a threat in Doctor Who, arguably they are the big bads of the series forcing the Doctor to work in the shadows (though part of my problem with season 7 is he's not doing that, at all). Ood have been the enemy in a few episodes, though largely as minions. Also for recurring threat you're forgetting the Cybermen, and I would say 3 episodes (actually 4 but that's because it was a two-parter) does make the Angels a recurring threat.

I'll agree that the next time there is an overall plot, it will definitely revolve around the Silence, but as of yet we haven't seen them this season, so I'm relegating it to only one season. I cannot remember the name, but somewhere around the 6th or 7th Doctor there was some overall plot arc being built in a way somewhat similar to the Silence, and then something else came up and they just dropped it like it never happened. I'm not saying that that will happen with the Silence, just that it remains a possibility until we actually see the Silence again.

I wouldn't count the Ood as a recurring enemy because they've only actually been the enemy once. They have been antagonists otherwise, but only as mind-slimed slaves with no real control over there actions. I wouldn't call a necromancer controlled zombie an enemy, for example. I think the Cybermen have only been shown two or three times since the start of Nu Who where they were an enemy (instead of simply present, or getting their stuff rocked by the Doctor during the Demon's Run arc).

I take the position that two part-er episodes are one, so the Angels have been the enemy in three episodes, by my count. I think the Angels have the possibility to be a good recurring threat (despite my hatred of them as a Sci-Fi enemy), but I think their low episode present to total episode ratio is too low for me to consider them a truly recurring threat as of yet.

Ok, I guess I can see I was unclear. When I said last 3 seasons I was including season 7 which is only half done. Season 5 re-introduces the Daleks in Victory of the Daleks which re-established their empire. They have not yet been destroyed again. Though they were made to forget the Doctor, it was stupid.

Like I said, I don't remember the Daleks escaping in Victory of the Daleks. So, when they showed up in Asylum and there was no explination of where they came from my first response was "where the hell did they come from?"

[The Glyphstone]

Do we go on the fluff or the crunch of Necrons (and seeing as I'm somewhat weak on my warhammer credentials is there much discrepancy there)?

The problem with using Necron crunch as a guideline is that it's mean to be balanced, a word which here means 'intended to be of equal mechanical power to its competitors, but since it was written by Matt Ward, is not balanced at all.'

[Soras Teva Gee]

I don't remember the Daleks surviving Victory of the Daleks, and I don't even know where the Daleks in Asylum of the Daleks came from.

The name wasn't a clue?

They got away cleaner then the Cult of Skaro ever did.

The problem with using Necron crunch as a guideline is that it's mean to be balanced, a word which here means 'intended to be of equal mechanical power to its competitors, but since it was written by Matt Ward, is not balanced at all.'

I was under the impression the general reaction was that it was.... actually not bad.

[Aotrs Commander]

I don't remember the Daleks surviving Victory of the Daleks, and I don't even know where the Daleks in Asylum of the Daleks came from.

...

What?

That was like, the entire point of the episode... The old Daleks show up, con the Doctor into helping them open the Genesis Arc and creating a whole new paradigm of Daleks and then buggerin' off while the Doctor had to stop that guy explodinatin' London with the Dalek bomb in his chest.

In the meta-sense, that whole episode was set-up to undo the "Daleks are nearly wiped out" schtick precisely because it was getting silly.

(Not to mention the several Dalek cameos between Victory and Asylum.)

Or are you just taking a swipe at the (rather unfairly, I thought) maligned design of the new Daleks (which were floating around in the background still in Asylum)? I really can't tell.

[shadow_archmagi]

For being an implacable race of omnicidal geniuses they do seem to have idiot balls strapped into their cybernetics.

What did you think all those little spheres on the chassis were?

[Dienekes]

You specified Davies remember? Moffat did it one last time and hasn't since. For that matter as we went from Victory to Asylum with all of a glorified cameo in between including IIRC a season without Daleks. It seems like not killing them off is a better way to ensure they stay away.

And seriously at this point its more tradition that the Daleks are all wiped out to reappear later... given that happened in their very first Classic appearence.

Yes and Davies wiped the Daleks out 3 times. I think we're talking past each other I'm counting when they were declared to be extinct, I think you're counting when they came back unexpectedly.

Like I said, I don't remember the Daleks escaping in Victory of the Daleks. So, when they showed up in Asylum and there was no explination of where they came from my first response was "where the hell did they come from?"

You have a very specific definition of recurring. To me recurring just means, they recur. Angels are that, as are Cyberman. They have shown up as antagonists in more than 1 story. Cybermen have 4 off the top of my head, maybe more, not including when they were just background characters.

Also as has been pointed out, you're not remembering Victory of the Daleks very well. The point of the episode was that the show makers (hopefully) never have to waste time explaining how they came back again. Mind you Asylum of the Daleks left a whole bunch of other questions that needed answering (Like how did Skaro come back? Why do the Daleks need genius all of a sudden? Why were we/the Daleks supposed to be afraid of what appears to be the useless broken down models? And why where the Daleks able to be reprogrammed as though they were robots and not living creatures inside a tank shell?)

Though I think we've hijacked this thread enough. If you want to continue the conversation please post your response in the Doctor Who thread.

[Zahhak]

Or are you just taking a swipe at the (rather unfairly, I thought) maligned design of the new Daleks (which were floating around in the background still in Asylum)? I really can't tell.

No, apparently Victory is one of the episodes I purged from my memory for being a bunch of ridiculous donkey ****, and was mistaking "Victory of the Daleks" for a different episode.

You have a very specific definition of recurring. To me recurring just means, they recur. Angels are that, as are Cyberman. They have shown up as antagonists in more than 1 story. Cybermen have 4 off the top of my head, maybe more, not including when they were just background characters.

Then the Slivean are a recurring threat. And they've been in two episodes.

[Aotrs Commander]

No, apparently Victory is one of the episodes I purged from my memory for being a bunch of ridiculous donkey ****, and was mistaking "Victory of the Daleks" for a different episode.

Ah. You were probably confusing Victory with the end the Stolen Earth with Davros or something, then. (Which sort of thing Victory was supposed to stop happening again, because frankly killing off the Daleks was a bit daft, in my opinion.)

(Personally, that is one of my favourite episodes, period.)

[Zahhak]

Stolen Earth being another episode I've tried to purge from my brain for being ridiculous donkey ****.

[Aotrs Commander]

Stolen Earth being another episode I've tried to purge from my brain for being ridiculous donkey ****.

Perhaps you should just automatically purge any instances of episodes with Daleks and call it a day...?

[Soras Teva Gee]

Yes and Davies wiped the Daleks out 3 times. I think we're talking past each other I'm counting when they were declared to be extinct, I think you're counting when they came back unexpectedly.

Ahh yes seems to be the case.

Ah. You were probably confusing Victory with the end the Stolen Earth with Davros or something, then. (Which sort of thing Victory was supposed to stop happening again, because frankly killing off the Daleks was a bit daft, in my opinion.)

(Personally, that is one of my favourite episodes, period.)

Well speaking of Davros he's apparently been back from the dead for 3 out of 5 of his appearances. So it seems to run in the family. Or maybe its something about Skaro since it seems to run in the planet too. And Time Lords. Heck for that matter I believe the Master has *technically* only regenerated properly once in the stoy, so him too.

And lets face it "impossible" and "permanent death" are some of those notions humans clearly cling to wrongly in the Whoniverse. Except that when viewed from a non-linear non-subjective perspective its more like ball of wib-... No wait that speech was for something else.

[shadow_archmagi]

Heck for that matter I believe the Master has *technically* only regenerated properly once in the stoy, so him too.

If I remember properly, he once fell into a volcano, and the entire cast watched him burn to a cinder, and then he pops up again they're like "????" and he's like "Sorry. Too awesome"

[Klose_the_Sith]

The problem with using Necron crunch as a guideline is that it's mean to be balanced, a word which here means 'intended to be of equal mechanical power to its competitors, but since it was written by Matt Ward, is not balanced at all.'

The real problem is that 40k fluff makes grandiose claims, but then the rules mechanics just turn them into a marginally better version of boring normal soldiers.

Regardless, I vote Daleks. Their power armour is probably better than Space Marines and being able to exterminate with one shot the things that they can, the widdle nekkies will soon just be vapour.

[Tvtyrant]

I'm voting Dalek. They can individually fly through space/time, which means that the enemy is effectively borked when it comes to space combat. Try firing enough to wipe out millions of tiny shielded people, and you will get stung to death. I would put them at an advantage in ground combat as well, since they can all fly and Necrons cannot.

Necrons have better weapons, and they can teleport between planets (webways), but I think the greater flexibility of the Daleks would let them win out. Or it would if either of them acted as smart as they are fluffed; Daleks tend to slowly hover forward and shoot at people.

[Zahhak]

Perhaps you should just automatically purge any instances of episodes with Daleks and call it a day...?

There was one or two that weren't complete lunacy.

[CthulhuEatYou]

Well, I read this part of the Necron Codex where it says they can basically erase planets and parts of the universe, but the consequences would be unimaginable. That and the fact the Doctor already exterminated the Daleks a alot of times, and everything in 40k is constructed to be just that much bigger, better and more badass in everyday way, than everything else. I'd say the Necrons stand quite a good chance. When this is said, I love both universes, but at the Daleks current state they aren't very threatening (That is, until a screenwriter decides to revive them yet again, for the hundredth time.) compared to trillions and trillions of Necrons. Both races has mind shattering technologies beyond imagination, which is almost impossible to compare.