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    PirateCaptain

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    Default WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    ...if he knew that an all undead party was coming for him in about 22 levels?

    OH, and JD get out of this thread you freaking jerk.

    Rather, they have abilities that give them the traits of certain undead. This is going to affect his aura, which is something I want to start thinking about now. So here's what I got so far!

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    Vecna in my universe already has a plan to break into Sigil and get "mazed" by the Lady of Pain on purpose to give him time to let the various machinations he's set up back in the world(Death Knight army, Hantumah from Open Grave leading an invasion, massive uprising of dragons against the Lawful Good Empire) time to wreak havoc on the material plane and hopefully kill off the party. This of course gives him a ton of time to prepare down in the Lady's maze, aka the Level 30 dungeon for my campaign.


    But what happens when the good guys undoubtedly overcome all these odds throughout Epic Tier and then come for Vecna himself? Does he alter his aura to give himself a better shot? Or do I need to put one more crazy Xanatos gambit in that alters the party's abilities?

    Oh, and general "This is what Vecna does when he's under a serious threat" thread I suppose. I want to make this campaign a lot scarier going into Paragon Tier, so I should probably start!

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    I'd imagine Vecna would totally find some way to safely integrate himself into everything so he could keep an eye on things, especially if he knows the PCs are coming for him.

    Maybe a loyal subject as a spy (a good, not-revealed until later spy, this is Vecna) on the party or some way of projecting himself (disguised).

    Also, he'd be trying to keep the PCs off his trail, and heavily. Even if the master plan is for Vecna to take over, it won't seem like that until the end. He'll have a red herring, and a good one, in his place first. This herring will not have any association to the god, possibly even convicting some other god Vecna has a beef with just to cause some trouble.

    Vecna is huge on misinformation and secrets.

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    NotScaryBats's Avatar

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Does he have control of the Sword, Eye, and Hand?
    If so, I suspect he'd give 'em the Eye or Hand (assuming they are prophesized to overthrow him) and try to use it to undermine / create dissent among the party. Make them destroy themselves and he wins without having to deal with them personally.

    He could try to keep them away from the vampire guy who maimed him (I forget his name, K something?) and that could be a major plot point, as the heroes try to learn Vecna's weaknesses from the only thing that ever hurt him, and Vecna tries to make sure such a meeting never happens.
    Thanks Gigi Digi for the avatar.

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    PirateCaptain

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    By 'all undead', I don't suppose you really mean Team Revenant?
    In effect, yes.

    Also I'm facepalming pretty hard. I used the Hand in my last campaign, completely blanked out over it in this one. Those are going to make a comeback in Paragon Tier for sure!

    EDIT: As for Kas, I'll make sure he shows up around Level 23 or so, and Vecna comes back for a grudge match! Thanks for bringing up this stuff, I've gotten caught up in my own plans and forgotten some of the original lore.
    Last edited by DragonBaneDM; 2012-11-07 at 12:34 AM.

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    Surrealistik's Avatar

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    In that case, one of the things he'd certainly do is find a lot of monsters with powers that instantly kill PCs when they drop to 0 hit points or fewer.

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    In that case, one of the things he'd certainly do is find a lot of monsters with powers that instantly kill PCs when they drop to 0 hit points or fewer.
    Oh crap. Those totally exist. And I haven't been using them. Well they're in Heroic Tier, so I think that might be a bit powerful. I'll check out the MM3 for them, but can you cite any specific examples? Can't think of any off the top of my head.

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    Surrealistik's Avatar

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    So far (L10+; I'm sure you know about the Tsochar; you could level them up):

    • Zombie Cactus (L10 Elite Lurker)
    • Cadaver Golem (L12 Elite Brute)
    • Death Mold Zombie (L12 Brute)
    • Charnel Hound (L13 Elite Brute)
    • Mind Flayer Thrall Master (L14 Elite Controller)
    • Incunabulum Slayer (L16 Lurker)
    • Shathrax (L16 Elite Lurker)
    • Aboleth Overseer (L18 Elite Controller)
    • Pavan, Aboleth Overseer Lich (L18 Solo Controller)
    • Mind Flayer Unseen (L18 Lurker)
    • Mind Flayer Mastermind (L18 Elite Controller)
    • Incunabulum Inquisitor (L18 Controller)
    • Concordant Mind Flayer (L19 Controller)
    • Soulspike Devourer (L20 Elite Soldier)
    • Mind Flayer Tormentor (L20 Artillery)
    • Alhoon Lich (L21 Elite Controller)
    • Ulitharid (L21 Elite Controller)
    • Aboleth Master (L22 Elite Controller)
    • Beholder Death Emperor (L22 Elite Controller)
    • Soulspike Devourer Champion (L24 Elite Soldier)
    • Kas the Betrayer (L26 Solo Soldier; enjoys a huge benefit when he drops a creature to 0 hp or fewer)
    • Voidsphere Beholder (L30 Elite Artillery)
    • Allabar, Opener of the Way (L30 Solo Soldier)


    So basically, an unholy alliance between Vecna and aberrants (Tsochar, Mindflayers, Aboleths) is what I'm seeing here, with a side of Vecna's own undead (mold zombies, undead beholders, incunabulum followers, and soulspike minions).

    Save ends undead with instant death effects (Soul Drain and such) are also good ways of threatening otherwise invincible revenant PCs.

    Remember to adjust the older monsters up to MM3 standards.

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Quote Originally Posted by DragonBaneDM View Post
    But what happens when the good guys undoubtedly overcome all these odds throughout Epic Tier and then come for Vecna himself? Does he alter his aura to give himself a better shot? Or do I need to put one more crazy Xanatos gambit in that alters the party's abilities?
    Whatever you want. You've put one of the setting's master planners in a dungeon with sufficient preparation time... Are the stats from Open Grave just rumors? Does he have some kind of Rust Monster/Dracolich hybrids that he keeps around? Does he simply spend a minor action to turn off his aura?
    Quote Originally Posted by DragonBaneDM View Post
    Oh, and general "This is what Vecna does when he's under a serious threat" thread I suppose. I want to make this campaign a lot scarier going into Paragon Tier, so I should probably start!
    Paragon Tier isn't where he considers you a threat, it's where he considers you a toy. A sometimes annoying one, but a toy nonetheless. Let them think he's serious about killing them at this point... but he's really just testing them, seeing how they react to different stresses, perfecting his plan to utterly crush them when the time comes to throw the toy away.
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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Other ideas: When the party starts actually seeming like a threat (ie: They start enacting a plan which Vecna actually thinks will work or near Epic Tier) my guess is Vecna will set up a contingency plan at this point.

    In fact, if I were him, if I were setting up a contingency plan it would come in the form of something the PCs will quickly learn to adore or treasure. Maybe a cute monster pal, or a holy relic which banishes the undead.

    Of course, this will just be an elaborate front for the thing which gives off a terrible necrotic explosion/possesses a PC/whatever as soon as I want it to. Since this is a contingency plan, 'As soon as I want it to' will probably occur when the PCs are fighting me and actually winning.

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    To be honest, I would update Vecna so his design is more consistent with modern solos; i.e. multiple turn counts, and heightened resistance/immunity to controlling effects.

    Osterneth (updated to MM3 standards) would be a great 'lieutenant' for Vecna too.

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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    If the team coming after him is actually undead, that raises some interesting possibilities.

    For one, there are several powerful forces that seek to oppose Vecna as one of the most powerful cosmic entities promoting undeath. The Raven Queen is chief among them, but if the party is revenant that doesn't help, they already work for her.

    But others? Perhaps more fanatical members of Pelor's clergy? Or Melora's? Or any other powerful, fanatical, anti-undead organization? Organizations who view the Raven Queen as little better than Vecna in any event? The kind who would be quick to believe that a deity willing to utilize undead servants would also be willing to conspire with undead gods?

    Vecna could manipulate such do-gooders to attack the party by planting false leads in cultist cells connecting the party to Vecna's operations and false or slightly twisted prophesies connecting the party to his eventual ascension. Leads that the anti-undead zealots would be all to quick to swallow, given the party's undead nature (and perhaps the urging of a trusted ally who had secretly been subverted by Vecna's cult). The party could then find themselves trapped in the crossfire between the forces of light and darkness, fighting those who should be their allies while Vecna is free to work his mischief unimpeded.

    -------------

    mechanically, though, what surrealistik said.
    Last edited by Malisteen; 2012-11-09 at 11:02 AM.
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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    To be honest, I would update Vecna so his design is more consistent with modern solos; i.e. multiple turn counts, and heightened resistance/immunity to controlling effects.

    Osterneth (updated to MM3 standards) would be a great 'lieutenant' for Vecna too.
    As in, you would if you were OP or as in I will if you need it, because I can?

    Since my guys hate Vecna's shoes already, and I might need him in about 20 levels, so I might as well have him in better math situation.


    TL, DR
    Could you post the updated Vecna's stats once you make them if you plan to make them?

    Thanks.
    Last edited by Mandrake; 2012-11-09 at 12:24 PM.

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...JLJ1Y74tA/edit

    A strict MM3 conversion excepting the following:

    #1: Secrets of Time and Creation added to give him multiple initiative counts as per contemporary solos.

    #2: Control power/effect resistance enhanced via Immortal Resilience rewording, and addition of Will of Vecna.

    #3: Vecna's Ambition reworded to be more fair; so he can't amass a bunch of APs for killing off minions, dropping/zeroing characters repeatedly, etc. This incarnation should be difficult enough as it stands without nonsense like that.

    #4: Ray of Death changed from Reflex to Fortitude. Deals healing surge necrotic damage if the target has no healing surges left for the ray to drain.

    #5: The aptly but above all creatively named Vecna Aura replaced with the Web of Lies aura.

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Surrealistik View Post
    *

    (this is only here because I need 10 characters minimum)

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Woot! Well this sparked into something incredibly awesome!

    EDIT: I'm a big big fan of those new Vecna stats. I think him being able to rework his aura and make himself more individually powerful is going to be completely doable while he's forging his ultimate dungeon. The only thing I'm gonna do for now is rename Web of Lies, it sounds pretty Lolth-esque.
    Last edited by DragonBaneDM; 2012-11-10 at 05:34 PM.

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    Surrealistik's Avatar

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Veil/Shroud/Grasp of Lies/Deceit/Treachery/Deception etc...

    Lots of ways to reflavour. I kind of agree with you though. I'll be changing that, especially since it overlaps with his Necrotic Web attack (in name), and I'd like to avoid the confusion.

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Also (and I might be wrong here), I think you didn't mention anything about that "when Deity gets bloodied" thing. Does it work on Vecna as well? So if he gets bloodied, he goes away for a while, unless you do something previously?

    :)

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    Surrealistik's Avatar

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Essentially the 4e gods (including Vecna) are fully immortal, and cannot be killed, instead discorporating for a period of time when badly injured (bloodied). The consequence of this is that they are weakened and unable to physically manifest for a period of time, typically for several months to years.

    The exception is if its attackers fulfill specific prerequisites. This typically means confronting a god with a relic of especial significance to it, or destroying similarly important sources of power/symbols. In Vecna's case this might involve the destruction of his Heart, Eye and Hand, and attacking and injuring him with the Sword of Kas during an encounter. Under these circumstances, his Divine Discorporation power will fail to trigger, and he can truly be slain.

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Undead with the Deathhunger Template from Open Grave instantly kill creatures dropped to 0 hit points or fewer via its Consume power.

    Charnel Hounds and Cadaver Golems also reap huge benefits from reducing creatures to 0 hit points or fewer, so I would add them to the list of anti-Revenant mobs.

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Created the 'Vecna's Reaper' monster:

    https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...0_bLjESCQ/edit

    Essentially an undead angel that Vecna sends to dispose of his most pressing threats. It focuses mercilessly on targets with lowest durability/current HP at the exclusion of all else, attempting to reduce it to 0 hit points as quickly as possible, before moving onto the next.

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    Default Re: WWVD (What Would Vecna Do?)

    Perfect! I've already got several jpgs of angels of Vecna picked out. Thanks for supplying all this stuff in your free time man.

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