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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    I'm playing a lvl 5 paladin using the Essentials guide, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. For my lvl 4 feat, I took Disciple of Justice, the description for which is: "When you use your second wind, you can choose one ally adjacent to you to regain hit points granted by it. If you do so, you don't regain the hit points."

    The way this is used in combat is clear, but I've been using it out of combat too. Since I'm Lawful Good, and I have the greatest healing surge value in the party as well as the greatest number of healing surges, I use it to heal party members AND NPCs after combat. (My DM tries to keep the badguys as far from me as possible, since I'm the hardest of the party to kill and have the greatest presence in close combat, so I don't have to use them on myself.)

    My reasoning for this is: I'm expending my Second Wind to heal someone, and since Second Wind is an encounter power and is thus regained after a 5-10 minute short rest, I can heal someone for 16 HP at the cost of one healing surge every 5-10 minutes as long as I can rest between each heal.

    This CAN'T be how it was intended to be used. Is there something I'm missing? Do the rules state that this can only be used during combat? Is the feat itself restricted only for use on party members? The rules, such as they are defined in Essentials, seem to imply that the feat was meant only for use on party members in combat, but doesn't explicitly say that it can't be used otherwise.
    I realized immediately after logging in for the first time that I should have called my account 'Dire Lemming.' Oh well.

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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Doesn't Second Wind also use one of your Surges? You have to take an extended rest to recover surges, so there's still a limit on how much you can do this. It's no different than drinking healing potions out of combat, except cheaper.
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    Kurald Galain's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    I do think the feat was intended to be used only on player characters in combat; this sounds precisely like the kind of thing the designers would overlook. That said, RAW clearly allows you to do so.

    That said, I don't see what the big deal is. Any competent healer would likely heal more than that (their own surge value +2d6+5 is probably more than yours) and if you keep healing the whole party you're bound to run out of surges eventually.

    So RAI: probably not; RAW: definitely; overpowered: definitely not. Outcome: valid.
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    obryn's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Lemming View Post
    This CAN'T be how it was intended to be used. Is there something I'm missing? Do the rules state that this can only be used during combat? Is the feat itself restricted only for use on party members? The rules, such as they are defined in Essentials, seem to imply that the feat was meant only for use on party members in combat, but doesn't explicitly say that it can't be used otherwise.
    It costs you a healing surge each time you use it, so I don't really see the problem. Your Leaders are probably more effective at healing out of combat.

    You get to use your surges for the party. It's not a big deal; there's a low-level ritual that does the same thing. I don't think it's unanticipated by the designers, and I don't think it's overpowered. As long as you're remembering that it costs you a surge, it's working as expected.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Thanks for the input, guys! :)
    I realized immediately after logging in for the first time that I should have called my account 'Dire Lemming.' Oh well.

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    HalflingRogueGuy

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    I've found 99% of the questions that start with "Hey, so if I just string together a whole bunch of short rests..." end in some spurious and either blatantly or subtly abusive application of the rules. I haven't quite made it official in my game that you only get one "short rest" between any encounter/long rest but it probably should be there.

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    If your defender has that many healing surges to spend, then you need more/harder encounters per day.

    I'm 100% happy with parties taking back to-back short rests, understanding that doing so takes about 5 minutes per rest.
    There are plenty of situations where taking multiple rests will have significant implications, but if you don't have any active antagonists infront of you or behind you, go nuts.


    If it becomes a problem, there are plenty of ranged skimishers/lurkers with encounter powers of their own and improved movement...
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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Badgerish View Post
    If your defender has that many healing surges to spend, then you need more/harder encounters per day.

    We're still very new at this, our DM doesn't have much experience, and neither do I. But I have that many healing surges to spend because our DM realizes that I'm the defender, and so keeps the enemies as far away from me as possible. They NEVER attack me if they have another option.

    There was one encounter where I completely forgot that I had Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance on, which apply a -2 attack penalty to adjacent enemies for attacking allies, and deal some radiant damage if they shift or attack allies anyway. This was after a couple of rounds where me and and a much-more-fragile party member were flanking a couple of enemy soldiers, who were both blatantly ignoring me and attacking my ally. Then I suddenly realized: "Hey! They should be taking a -2 penalty to attack and be about 10 HP lower!" As soon as I said this, the two badguys immediately turned around and started attacking me. For no reason. When they had NO IDEA what I was about to start doing.
    I realized immediately after logging in for the first time that I should have called my account 'Dire Lemming.' Oh well.

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    Eldritch Horror in the Playground Moderator
     
    The Glyphstone's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Sounds like role confusion and a DM problem then. The Defender's job is to keep the enemy's attention by taking hits and attacks. Your Paladin Mark deals radiant damage when marked enemies attack other people, so slap your mark around as much as possible to punish enemies for ignoring you. In the encounter you described, that's above board - IIRC, creatures know when they're subjected to an aura, so if you were forgetting to apply aura penalties till then, your aura 'switched on' and they noticed it, turning to attack you as the aura intends. Doin It Rite.
    Quote Originally Posted by GungHo, on Battletech
    The Atlas is also goofy but it has that whole "Stay Puft Marshmallow Man" menacing smile thing going for it. The guy who drew that one up was obviously taken to the Nutcracker when he was a child... and he was screaming in terror the entire time.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enterti, Cogidubnus
    Glyphstone, out of all the playground I think you scare me the most...
    Quote Originally Posted by Zombimode
    Glyphstone, you are an evil person :D

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
    CarpeGuitarrem's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Something my friend pointed out (often not realized, because D&Ders are so focused on HP as vitality) is that healing surges are your actual health. HP replenishes from fight to fight, at the cost of surges, via powers. There's nothing but an extended rest to replenish surges.
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    Yakk's Avatar

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Lemming View Post
    There was one encounter where I completely forgot that I had Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance on, which apply a -2 attack penalty to adjacent enemies for attacking allies, and deal some radiant damage if they shift or attack allies anyway. This was after a couple of rounds where me and and a much-more-fragile party member were flanking a couple of enemy soldiers, who were both blatantly ignoring me and attacking my ally. Then I suddenly realized: "Hey! They should be taking a -2 penalty to attack and be about 10 HP lower!" As soon as I said this, the two badguys immediately turned around and started attacking me. For no reason. When they had NO IDEA what I was about to start doing.
    Actually, you are fully aware of the effects of auras you are in.

    So they know they suffer a -2 penalty to their attacks.

    What they shouldn't know (by RAW) is that they take damage by violating your aura, unless they can be expected to know about your other abilities.

    A way of looking at it is if you run into a monster that marks you, or imposes some attack penalty to attacking other targets, do you suspect that the monster might also have other abilities that happen if you ignore it? I do. So should reasonably intelligent/knowledgeable monsters.

    Combatants on the battlefield which are heavily armored and are on the front lines need to have abilities to force enemies to attack them, or they aren't effective. If you are assuming enemies are effective...

    Now, it it sometimes worth pulling away from said soldiers.

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    DwarfClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Yeah, in fact, things are better now that enemies are actually attacking you as that's how things should be, in fact the DM purposely always avoiding you by pure virtue of your Paladin being the tank is really bad DMing in my opinion.

    Really that sort of decision should be made on both a monster by monster and a turn by turn basis (different monsters have different tactics and intelligences, and many respond to different situations).
    Last edited by Sipex; 2012-11-09 at 02:48 PM.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Lemming View Post
    We're still very new at this, our DM doesn't have much experience, and neither do I. But I have that many healing surges to spend because our DM realizes that I'm the defender, and so keeps the enemies as far away from me as possible. They NEVER attack me if they have another option.

    There was one encounter where I completely forgot that I had Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance on, which apply a -2 attack penalty to adjacent enemies for attacking allies, and deal some radiant damage if they shift or attack allies anyway. This was after a couple of rounds where me and and a much-more-fragile party member were flanking a couple of enemy soldiers, who were both blatantly ignoring me and attacking my ally. Then I suddenly realized: "Hey! They should be taking a -2 penalty to attack and be about 10 HP lower!" As soon as I said this, the two badguys immediately turned around and started attacking me. For no reason. When they had NO IDEA what I was about to start doing.
    Welcome to 4e Defenders. As a 4e Paladin, you are a Knight In Shining Armour, and the nearby enemies do not dare look away. This is represented by the Defender Aura; you practically glow with holy light and this gives the enemy a -2 to hit anyone else if you are too close - and they take damage if they try to escape.

    This also has the effect of making attacking anyone other than you a bad choice - otherwise going round the guy wearing steel armour and splatting the guy in robes would be the smart move. 4e therefore aligns what's smart with what's right thematically - and remembering the modifiers gets the monsters to do what the story would indicate.

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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Using Disciple of Justice isn't much different than what a regular Paladin can do with Lay on Hands.


    Quote Originally Posted by CarpeGuitarrem View Post
    Something my friend pointed out (often not realized, because D&Ders are so focused on HP as vitality) is that healing surges are your actual health. HP replenishes from fight to fight, at the cost of surges, via powers. There's nothing but an extended rest to replenish surges.
    There are a couple ways, although mostly item and Bard-related.

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Lemming View Post
    There was one encounter where I completely forgot that I had Defender Aura and Righteous Radiance on, which apply a -2 attack penalty to adjacent enemies for attacking allies, and deal some radiant damage if they shift or attack allies anyway. This was after a couple of rounds where me and and a much-more-fragile party member were flanking a couple of enemy soldiers, who were both blatantly ignoring me and attacking my ally. Then I suddenly realized: "Hey! They should be taking a -2 penalty to attack and be about 10 HP lower!" As soon as I said this, the two badguys immediately turned around and started attacking me. For no reason. When they had NO IDEA what I was about to start doing.
    I DM for our group and I forget to use monster powers all the time! Imagine having to remember everything for all the monsters... every time we have an encounter we'll be in the middle of it and then I'll think "Oh no! I forgot this guy has one more use of ______."
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    ClericGuy

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Quote Originally Posted by INDYSTAR188 View Post
    I DM for our group and I forget to use monster powers all the time! Imagine having to remember everything for all the monsters... every time we have an encounter we'll be in the middle of it and then I'll think "Oh no! I forgot this guy has one more use of ______."
    My kryptonite is "immediate reaction: when first bloodied" powers. I never remember to use those.

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    Pixie in the Playground
     
    PaladinGuy

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    Default Re: Is This a Cheat or is it Valid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Lemming View Post
    I'm playing a lvl 5 paladin using the Essentials guide, Heroes of the Forgotten Kingdoms. For my lvl 4 feat, I took Disciple of Justice, the description for which is: "When you use your second wind, you can choose one ally adjacent to you to regain hit points granted by it. If you do so, you don't regain the hit points."

    The way this is used in combat is clear, but I've been using it out of combat too. Since I'm Lawful Good, and I have the greatest healing surge value in the party as well as the greatest number of healing surges, I use it to heal party members AND NPCs after combat. (My DM tries to keep the badguys as far from me as possible, since I'm the hardest of the party to kill and have the greatest presence in close combat, so I don't have to use them on myself.)

    My reasoning for this is: I'm expending my Second Wind to heal someone, and since Second Wind is an encounter power and is thus regained after a 5-10 minute short rest, I can heal someone for 16 HP at the cost of one healing surge every 5-10 minutes as long as I can rest between each heal.

    This CAN'T be how it was intended to be used. Is there something I'm missing? Do the rules state that this can only be used during combat? Is the feat itself restricted only for use on party members? The rules, such as they are defined in Essentials, seem to imply that the feat was meant only for use on party members in combat, but doesn't explicitly say that it can't be used otherwise.
    I don't see any problem with what you said. The only problem could be ignoring your number of surges per day, but that was more unmentioned than stated to be happening. Your ability comes back after 5 minutes of rest, so you can use it after 5 minutes of rest... why would that ever not be the case?

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