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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    The thing that is the problem is that when a zombie outbreak starts, it will soon attaract the attention of the CDC and similar organizations. And this will be long before you have hundereds of thousands of zombies. Do a seach for "7 Scientific Reasons a Zombie Outbreak Would Fail" I don't to directly link to it since it probably has bad language.
    The crack one? Yes, I've read it, it's bogus, it assumes too much and knows to little. It's like asking a a comic book writer to make a detailed account of bio-chemical virology. The point being, it's not scientific at all. Which means it attempts to be somthing which it isn't. Half the reasons are directly wrong, the rest assumes to much to be taken seriously. If you want, I can go through every one of the points made in it and tell you what exactly is wrong with it from a virologists, biologist and logical point of view. Although, I should think you would be able to see most of it yourself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Draconi Redfir View Post
    Though i must ask, does anybody know if Brooks actually has any say or pull in this movie or did he simply allow the folks at Hollywood to make it?
    As far as I remember he decided to not have anything to do with it at all.
    Last edited by CthulhuEatYou; 2012-11-09 at 02:16 PM.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by CthulhuEatYou View Post
    The crack one? Yes, I've read it, it's bogus, it assumes too much and knows to little. It's like asking a a comic book writer to make a detailed account of bio-chemical virology. The point being, it's not scientific at all. Which means it attempts to be somthing which it isn't. Half the reasons are directly wrong, the rest assumes to much to be taken seriously. If you want, I can go through every one of the points made in it and tell you what exactly is wrong with it from a virologists, biologist and logical point of view. Although, I should think you would be able to see most of it yourself.
    They may overstate a few points, but for the most part things actually are logical and factually based. For instance dead bodies will rot and rot quickly in hot weather. Insects will have a field day with them (some insects laying eggs in just a few hours). If you see the aftermath of any large battle where the bodies have not been cleaned up, you will see what I mean. (only if you can take it though. Bloated bodies are not fun to look at.). Freezing destroys cells because ice ruptures the cell membrane. Cells are not dead, they are destroyed, turned into mush. There is nothing there to animate. And that includes the cells that make up your muscles.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by CthulhuEatYou View Post
    The crack one? Yes, I've read it, it's bogus, it assumes too much and knows to little. It's like asking a a comic book writer to make a detailed account of bio-chemical virology. The point being, it's not scientific at all. Which means it attempts to be somthing which it isn't. Half the reasons are directly wrong, the rest assumes to much to be taken seriously. If you want, I can go through every one of the points made in it and tell you what exactly is wrong with it from a virologists, biologist and logical point of view. Although, I should think you would be able to see most of it yourself.
    I'd certainly like to see you argue against the undead being unable to see is illogical. Or that dead bodies rot, especially well so in hot humid areas. Or how biting is a really bad way to transfer disease or that your top predator being your food supply as well is a pretty bad survival tactic. Have at it I suppose.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by SDF View Post
    IIRC they used pig carcases on Mythbusters and could barely get them to move.
    Out of curiosity, what was the largest size round they used (my google-fu is failing me)?

    While I have no trouble accepting a 5.56mm round not knocking over a zombie, I get a bit iffy when considering .50 calibre machine guns and I refuse to believe a 25mm round from a Bradley IFV's main weapon wouldn't send a human-size object flying (or at least put massive holes in it).

    Edit: found it, a .50 from a sniper rifle wouldn't send them flying, so I suppose a MG wouldn't send them flying either (would probably knock them down with repeated hits).
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-11-09 at 03:33 PM.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    They may overstate a few points, but for the most part things actually are logical and factually based. For instance dead bodies will rot and rot quickly in hot weather. Insects will have a field day with them (some insects laying eggs in just a few hours). If you see the aftermath of any large battle where the bodies have not been cleaned up, you will see what I mean. (only if you can take it though. Bloated bodies are not fun to look at.). Freezing destroys cells because ice ruptures the cell membrane. Cells are not dead, they are destroyed, turned into mush. There is nothing there to animate. And that includes the cells that make up your muscles.
    So first we have to assume they are dead, which breaks every natural law as we know them. Then we have to assume in this reawakened state that they have no immune system, which is fair, and no other bodily functions. Then we would have to assume this doesn't cause them to develop bodily toxins, the toxins caused by no longer having a functioning bodily system. Which normally happens for a still moving body with disabled intestines; because, just because. This would take care of all natural predators in for of insects and bacteria. After all that, assuming zombies have any less of an immune system than ours, provided they are dead, which already are beyond magical, that they are eaten away at near impossible speed, so fast that they can't infect others at all.
    When we have assumed all of this nonsense, we have to assume that the incests and bacteria would at all react to this new phenomenon, although we know it have taken millions of years for them to adapt to eating what they eat now and that zombies are completely outside the category of everything. Then we have to assume that the virus, especially designed or evolved to do this task has not, at all, evolved to take care of insects and bacteria to survive, which is the case with many viruses. Then we would have to assume insects eat the corpse at superhuman (super-insect) speed, as it takes alot more 20 days ca. for insects to devour a human corpse normally. Far to slow, if it were to prevent the zombies from spreading.

    Also, why do you assume zombies, when they are turned, suddenly drops all their cloth and freeze to death and/or lose all body warmth.

    Also, it could be very likely that half humanity is already infected, as per the very real Toxoplasma gondii parasite which actually affects approximately 50% of all human, and affect human and animal behaviour. Also that a couple of weeks would be enough. After all, a Canadian scientist's study have shown it would take zombies 28 days to exterminate/spread the virus to 95% of humanity. Although the accuracy of this, too, is very doubtfully. (This later came to inspire the name of an movie and its sequal).

    Basically, for any of cracked's theories to be true we'd have to assume zombies breaks all laws of nature, in which case we cannot assume anything. Cracked are for crackhead theories...


    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    I'd certainly like to see you argue against the undead being unable to see is illogical. Or that dead bodies rot, especially well so in hot humid areas. Or how biting is a really bad way to transfer disease or that your top predator being your food supply as well is a pretty bad survival tactic. Have at it I suppose.
    Why do we assume biting spreads the disease, when the creator of modern zombies himself (George A. Romeo) said that all humans were already infected. Which would either suggest a airbourne disease or a parasite like Toxoplasma gondii. Also, I have to remind you that the zombie is not the predator, but the disease/parasite/whatever is the predator. And the zombie might mearly be a way to spread the host or speed up the infection process.
    Last edited by CthulhuEatYou; 2012-11-09 at 03:19 PM.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    and I refuse to believe a 25mm round from a Bradley IFV's main weapon wouldn't send a human-size object flying (or at least put massive holes in it).
    A 25mm round would NOT send a human sized object flying. Unless you count it being splattered all over the place.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Also: Bullets have kinetic energy. Even ONE bullet is likely to knock even a very well balanced person on their butt.

    What about zombies that can barely even stand?

    Brooks seriously undervalues damage done to zombies outside of the head.

    Hit the spine and then just collapse. Hit the legs and they collapse.

    Hit the body and they just fall down and collapse.
    Addendum: Hit the pelvic girdle, the baseline skeletal structure will not allow them to GET back up, and there made even slower as they drag themselves on there arms. And tear themselves up doing so if over longer distances for longer periods of time.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    I think the thing with the projectiles is simply that they fly right through the body rather than delivering the kinetic force to it.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by CthulhuEatYou View Post
    Then we would have to assume insects eat the corpse at superhuman (super-insect) speed, as it takes alot more 20 days ca. for insects to devour a human corpse normally. Far to slow, if it were to prevent the zombies from spreading.
    While true, the insects wouldn't have to eat the corpse to nothing, just enough so that it stops being capable of moving.

    Quote Originally Posted by CthulhuEatYou View Post
    I think the thing with the projectiles is simply that they fly right through the body rather than delivering the kinetic force to it.
    Some do (main problem seen with the 5.56 rounds in Afghanistan and Iraq), but larger rounds simply cause large holes which would stop the body from functioning. It's slightly hard to walk with a shattered femur, even if such an injury couldn't kill you.

    In addition, over penetration is mainly an issue with military ball ammunition. Civilians and law enforcement can use hollowpoint rounds which do significantly more damage to soft targets (specifically tear and destroy muscle in the case of zombies).
    Last edited by Brother Oni; 2012-11-09 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamerlord View Post
    ...Is it weird that I started humming the Katarami Damacy theme about halfway through the trailer?
    Nope. And now I want to play a zombie version of Katamar Damacy.

    Back on topic: Yay for Zombies!
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    The assertation that the US Military is hidebound and working with old tactics is wrong. The US military has for a long time been highly innovative and *flexible*.
    Sadly, this is not completely true.
    Military history is full of examples of bad tactics, wrong approaches, mistakes, overconfidence, and US military is not excluded.
    Every time people tend to think that the current army is led by brilliant mind, and often that's true, but in every army you'll find high officiers not able to adapt.
    Let's pick only the (relative) recent history.
    DUring the american civil war, it appeared that applying a napoleon-like formations, marching toward well defended positions, was not a good idea. Manoveurs were far better, and yet there were lots of examples of frontal charges against trenched positions.
    Was the lesson learned in WWI? nope. The formations were abandoned, but there was frontal assault to trenches, barbed wires, machine guns' nests.
    There are examples of massive frontal assault of infantry even in WWII.
    Of course army is innovative and flexible. But sometime you don't "see" that you're staying behind. At the begining of WWII, many failed to see the power of air force and tanks' manoveur, and put their faith in fortresses. Anzio failed due to poor decisions after the landing, and so on.
    After WWII, someone discovered that you cannot successfully apply WWII tactics to an enemy that uses giungle guerrilla.
    When US army had become invincible on an "army" scale, still you can see total failure in planning rescue operation such as Eagle Claw.

    Every army will commit mistakes, due to bad planning ad overconfidence, every army has its Little Big Horn. So, Yonker will happen.
    Only, it won't happen in the way described, because you're going to fail while applying a current tactic (such the actual ones in dealing with popular riots, or the ones used in urban warfare). Actually, no one is seriously going to dig trenches.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-11-09 at 04:41 PM.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Killer Angel View Post
    Sadly, this is not completely true.
    Military history is full of examples of bad tactics, wrong approaches, mistakes, overconfidence, and US military is not excluded.
    Every time people tend to think that the current army is led by brilliant mind, and often that's true, but in every army you'll find high officiers not able to adapt.
    Here's the difference: zeds add exactly nothing to the equation.

    They are literally the oldest conceivable army in existence, unorganized, unarmored, unarmed, infantry. What's going to happen when an a zed comes up against a position with an M2, one of the most dirt common machine guns in the world? Something probably not unlike what happens to this watermelon, only worse because that was just a rifle not automatic machine gun fire. And that's only the ground floor of what the weapons we have are capable of.

    There is no place for the human body dead or alive on the modern battlefield. Infantry can only survive when they are either not easily detected, easily reached, or the opposing force chooses not to just level the area. All of which basically amount to hiding, something zeds largely won't do.

    Never mind you have to basically micro-manage the armed forces to not allow tanks to just run the zeds over.

    And this is even granting the zeds one of those hordes everyone does. Those don't actually make sense you know. People like to fondly imagine you release a single zed in a supermarket and a hundred zeds walk out. When in reality that place is going to clear out when the screaming starts. Maybe two more zeds walk out.

    And biting is such a terrible form of attack for a human its fairly likely even a single person can fight a zed off with any type of tool. You basically need to get "any fluid contact" style to actually have zombies that can profit on their attacks. Just biting (like Brooks and most use) or the like you will barely replace the zed before someone comes along and puts a bullet in its head.

    People imagine cities as a all you can eat buffet. Nope. They are a honeycomb of walls and barriers that will slow zeds down where not block them entirely. So these endless hordes are a load of crap too.

    How Brooks doesn't just politely ignore this to make a story about a group of survivors work and we all agree to not ask how it got that bad in the first place... he has the audacity to not only say that it would seriously work like that, but that he also knows better and proscribes a bunch of ridiculous nonsense.

    (Fun Sidbar: This guy and his friends, probably good for thousands of zeds before he goes down)
    Last edited by Soras Teva Gee; 2012-11-09 at 06:17 PM.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    Actually that was pretty well justified by Brooks. A tank shell explodes and can disembowel you, burn you, suck the air out of your lungs, burst your veins with the pressure and break your legs with the damage, to say nothing of knocking you unconscious or putting you into severe shock - but none of that will stop a zombie. Nothing short of severing the spine will immobilize one, and nothing short of cranial trauma will kill one, and short of a direct hit neither of those are guaranteed from an exploding shell.
    But most of that will effectively neutralize the zombie as a threat. Who care if he's technically still "alive" and even has some limited mobility left, he's no longer a danger. "Wow, these zombie dragging himself along on the stumps of his arms and legs sure has fighting spirit. Too bad for him that he can't bite me anywhere higher than my ankle and is totally unable to bite through my combat boot"

    Yonkers should have been a curp stomb battle by the military even with the tactics they were described to be using, because even these tactics with these means would be devastating to the zombies orders of magnitude above how they worked in the book.

    Heck, they could have just drove over them with their tanks and IFVs without the zombies being able to do anything but being crushed under them
    Quote Originally Posted by Scowling Dragon View Post
    Also: Bullets have kinetic energy. Even ONE bullet is likely to knock even a very well balanced person on their butt.
    Actually no. Bullets have real knock back effect. Normal bullets don't transfer enough kinetic energy and really powerful bullets (e.g. from anti material rifles) are actually worse at that since the pierce a soft thing like a body so quickly that they actually transfer even less force due to their quick exit (or you get to the point where the body just goes splash, but that's not so much knocking it back as knocking it everywhere at once).

    If a knock back effect occurs it's due to a subconscious attempt to "roll with the blow", not from the actual force applied by the bullet.
    Last edited by SoC175; 2012-11-09 at 06:45 PM.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by SoC175 View Post
    Actually no. Bullets have real knock back effect. Normal bullets don't transfer enough kinetic energy and really powerful bullets (e.g. from anti material rifles) are actually worse at that since the pierce a soft thing like a body so quickly that they actually transfer even less force due to their quick exit (or you get to the point where the body just goes splash, but that's not so much knocking it back as knocking it everywhere at once).

    If a knock back effect occurs it's due to a subconscious attempt to "roll with the blow", not from the actual force applied by the bullet.
    Check my first link to above. Observe watermelon exploding from being shot with a single .50 BMG round.

    While large rounds are less efficient due to overpenetration... the problem is I've yet to find where that quite seems to you know matter. Especially on against a zombie horde where it will just hit another zed.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by CthulhuEatYou View Post
    Rabies doesn't work the way you think It work. It basically just cause inflammation to the brain and kills humans outright, no zombie behaviour there. Dogs go feral, but they doesn't hunt other dogs down and become cannibalistic, they just go mad. A more likely disease is Mad Cows disease, which actually changes the brain, instead of causing so much pain its victim goes mad. There exist no disease that, even mildly, is similar to a zombie virus, so we cannot in anyway make comparison to the real world. The zombie virus is fictional, and hopefully continue to be exactly that.
    Yeah, Prion diseases are scary. Of course, it takes tends to take decades for the typical infectie to show symptoms, but some strains can inflict there horror in years.

    While this may not seem like much, thats a gap between the onset of old age to hitting a infectie before there twenty. Now, lets say something like that gap happens in another strain, such as, say, screwing up a subject in a month of consuming the tainted meat?


    A mass rabies-outbreak would end with the infecties dieing thanks to a lack of, you know, drinking fluids. A big load of beef getting into the markets could end with a large slice of the population ending up with a brain-ravaging condition with no cure.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CthulhuEatYou View Post
    So first we have to assume they are dead, which breaks every natural law as we know them.
    Ya, well I hate to be the one to tell you this but Zombies aren't real so we're going to have to delve into some fantasy here. Most go with the "Undead" because ya know...that's the most common type of zombie. Both mythologically and based on Romero. We'll get to Romero later on since you want to use him to defend your arguments.


    Then we have to assume in this reawakened state that they have no immune system, which is fair, and no other bodily functions.
    So far so good. This is a fair assumption.

    Then we would have to assume this doesn't cause them to develop bodily toxins, the toxins caused by no longer having a functioning bodily system. Which normally happens for a still moving body with disabled intestines; because, just because.
    And this is where you start to break down. Why would we have to assume that? The body isn't functioning for the most part in the typical zombie. Bodies rot when they're not alive. Zombies are not alive. They rot. What ever is animating them non-withstanding. Romero went with "The Brain" or ya know "When there is no more room in Hell" explanation.

    This would take care of all natural predators in for of insects and bacteria. After all that, assuming zombies have any less of an immune system than ours, provided they are dead, which already are beyond magical, that they are eaten away at near impossible speed, so fast that they can't infect others at all.
    Well, since your third assumption is based on...I don't even know...this doesn't exactly follow. Humans body rot when they're dead

    When we have assumed all of this nonsense, we have to assume that the incests and bacteria would at all react to this new phenomenon, although we know it have taken millions of years for them to adapt to eating what they eat now and that zombies are completely outside the category of everything.
    Again, you're the one making the assumption. That's cool and all but you're not arguing with anyone here. You're demanding we make assumptions that we don't have to make or make at all.

    Then we have to assume that the virus, especially designed or evolved to do this task has not, at all, evolved to take care of insects and bacteria to survive, which is the case with many viruses.
    Wanna name one?

    Then we would have to assume insects eat the corpse at superhuman (super-insect) speed, as it takes alot more 20 days ca. for insects to devour a human corpse normally. Far to slow, if it were to prevent the zombies from spreading.
    No we wouldn't. Twenty days is long enough to hole up somewhere with supplies and wait for the wandering dead to fall apart while the insects rejoice at the all you can eat buffet.

    Also, why do you assume zombies, when they are turned, suddenly drops all their cloth and freeze to death and/or lose all body warmth.
    We don't. Again. You're telling us we're assuming things our arguments aren't. Have you ever -been- to Phoenix? I actually live in Arizona and I can tell you it doesn't matter if you're wearing clothing or not. Phoenix is REALLY REALLY HOT. Try standing around in downtown Phoenix for a few hours without drinking anything. You're going to be in a really bad state. If the zombie is a living thing, it's actually worse. Because if they follow the rules of living things, they're going to dehydrate swiftly. Running around and sweating does that for you.

    As for losing body heat...yes. Dead bodies lose body heat. Doesn't matter if you're wrapped up tighter than a hot dog at a Fat Camp. Clothing is for insulation for the most part after all. Having lived in the mountains and areas that get lake effect snow as well...being caught out in a blizzard even in nice heavy clothing isn't going to do much for you. By the end of being in a blizzard, you're wet and freezing. That's bad news for a zombie living or undead. Living zombies are going to sucumb to hypothermia rather swiftly.

    Also, it could be very likely that half humanity is already infected, as per the very real Toxoplasma gondii parasite which actually affects approximately 50% of all human, and affect human and animal behaviour.
    I don't know where you're getting those numbers but it's not the CDC or the WHO. Because they count it at an estimation of about 1/3rd the human population. While you're correct that Toxo has been linked to depression, schizophrenia OCD and even Brain Cancer the research is still out and being conducted to this day. So saying "It actually etc" when we still don't know with a shadow of a doubt...ya.

    Not to mention that a generally healthy human being with a strong immune system can live with Toxo with no real health impact what so ever.

    Also that a couple of weeks would be enough. After all, a Canadian scientist's study have shown it would take zombies 28 days to exterminate/spread the virus to 95% of humanity. Although the accuracy of this, too, is very doubtfully. (This later came to inspire the name of an movie and its sequal).
    Ya, dubious scientific studies really don't cut the mustard.

    Basically, for any of cracked's theories to be true we'd have to assume zombies breaks all laws of nature, in which case we cannot assume anything. Cracked are for crackhead theories...
    Well, Cracked is a Humor Website so taking your scientific information from there as the LAW is a bad idea all over.


    Why do we assume biting spreads the disease, when the creator of modern zombies himself (George A. Romeo) said that all humans were already infected.
    And here we get to what I mentioned above. Romero (With an R) started with the animated dead Zombie. It's in the title of the first movie. It's in the title of all of Romero's movies. So saying "Well Romero" said while decrying the Undead Zombie archetype as unrealistic is rather silly don't you think? But lets look at what Romero actually says about the Infections in his movie shall we?

    Romero's original Night of the Living Dead explains that an unknown phenomenon causes re-animation of the brain. Instead of being spread from person to person, the phenomenon presents itself in any human that has recently died from any cause (except those that destroy the physical structure of the brain). The first animated corpses appear in many locations simultaneously, quickly reaching pandemic levels. Characters speculate about the cause of the phenomenon; suggestions at various times include a spaceborne virus, divine punishment, radiation from a satellite returning from Venus, or that "there's no more room in Hell". While bites from these reanimated creatures are uniformly lethal, by mechanics unknown, death by other means would have the same result, so a bite is not necessary. It is suggested in Day of the Dead that the immediate amputation of bitten limbs may prevent victims from dying, but while the treatment is attempted, its success is never conclusively demonstrated. In George Romero's original Day of the Dead idea, a person was to have his bitten arm amputated, but still return as a zombie. Survival of the Dead shows that, in the rare instance of a living person biting the undead, that person will become infected. Many characters in films (including George Romero himself) have referred to the bitten area as the "infected area" or "infection".
    So unless you've got a source that has evidence against ya know...the films themselves then Romero actually never has come out saying what it is over all. It's even odder considering that none of Romero's movies are sequels so him quantifying -every- zombie move he's ever made into a single reason...well...it seems unlikely to me without a source.


    As for the biting...that's the common Zombie transmission system. It's not realistic. But hey, neither are zombies so what are you going to do?

    Which would either suggest a airbourne disease or a parasite like Toxoplasma gondii.
    It would, if the entire world was infected. That raises some questions in and of itself however. Like how we never noticed before the Zombie Apocolypse. The "Whole World is Infected" idea is even more laughable than undead Zombies. How long have people been infected? Like a week? Because doctors are going to start noticing when -every- one of their patiants start popping up with a strange infection or parasite that they've never seen before. It would make the news. It would be the -biggest- news other than Aliens coming down to Earth en mass or some religious event.

    Also, I have to remind you that the zombie is not the predator, but the disease/parasite/whatever is the predator. And the zombie might mearly be a way to spread the host or speed up the infection process.
    No, I don't think you understand. We, the humans, are the predators. We're the predators of zombies. We're also their food source. Parasite or not. We're what the Infection needs, healthy humans. We're also the main source of competition against the virus. The analogy Cracked used was rather apt. It'd be like fighting a lion every time you want a hamburger. We are better organized, more intelligent and better armed than the average zombie.



    So, in summation. You said half the Cracked Article was "Bogus" or "Wrong". So from a realistic, still living zombie outbreak level would you mind going through the seven points and explain how they're "Bogus"? Keeping in mind however that the Cracked article isn't about "Realistic" zombies at all well. They're going off the Romero, shambling dead zombies.

    1. Natural Predators

    2. They Can't Take the Heat

    3. They Can't Take the Cold

    4. Biting is a Terrible Way to Spread Disease

    5. They Can't Heal from Day to Day Damage

    6. The Landscape is full of Zombie Proof Barriers

    7. Weapons and the People who Use them
    Last edited by Tebryn; 2012-11-09 at 07:38 PM.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    The important thing is that these aren't Romero zombies, they are Solanum zombies. World War Z follows the rules laid out in The Zombie Survival Guide, Brooks' other zombie book set in the same universe, and he has extremely detailed notes laid out for how his zombies work. It's basically what you expect, standard zombie stuff, with a few exceptions.

    One, Solanum is very specifically a virus transmitted by infected fluids. Most commonly saliva from a bite, but also infected tissue and blood spatter. Or, as was the case in a few major cities in World War Z, infected donated blood and organs in hospitals. So it's not Romero's "Any dead person becomes a zombie'; you have to have actually been infected with the virus. The problem is that if you're within touching distance of a zombie, infection is really easy.
    Two, the virus is deadly. Any infected creature becomes horribly ill within hours of infection, suffers agonizing pain and necrosis, slips into a coma, and their organs shut down. Infected humans don't need these organs and become zombies, but any non-human infectee will die. This means there are no zombie predators, at all. No bugs, no animals, not even bacteria will attempt to eat a zombie, which slows the breakdown of the body immensely. Without the cells being broken down by bacteria, zombies don't rot, and can exist in their undead state for literally years.
    Three, these zombies possess no unusual abilities, but they have all of the advantages of a human body with none of the weaknesses. They can hunt in perfect darkness using sound and scent far better than a human can, because they don't rely on their eyes as much as we do. They also never tire or get bored or feel pain, which makes them hard to keep out, because they'll just keep attacking the barrier until either it collapses or their bodies literally shut down from muscle degradation. As Brooks puts it, "Barricades that would stop three grown men have been known to eventually fall to a single determined zombie." After three hours of punching a wooden wall, your hand will hurt too much and you'll be too tired to keep punching. A zombie will do this for three days without difficulty, until the wall simply caves in.

    There's other, relatively minor stuff as well, but if you're talking about how the zombies spread in World War Z you can't look at this like the Romero zombie. Those little differences change the rules more than you'd think. And remember, the outbreaks started in densely-populated third world regions, not Hometown USA. By the time the zombies started attacking the developed nations that could have controlled the threat, there were already millions of them.
    I'm not saying all this makes the zombie uprising plausible, but if you're not doing Romero's policy of "All dead people in the world are now zombies, and there is no explanation", you generally go with the Zombie Virus explanation. Brooks has the best explanation for that wildly improbable scenario that I've ever seen, short of a deliberate release of the virus by someone who wanted the apocalypse to happen.
    ...but of course that's just my opinion.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    Two, the virus is deadly. Any infected creature becomes horribly ill within hours of infection, suffers agonizing pain and necrosis, slips into a coma, and their organs shut down. Infected humans don't need these organs and become zombies, but any non-human infectee will die. This means there are no zombie predators, at all. No bugs, no animals, not even bacteria will attempt to eat a zombie, which slows the breakdown of the body immensely. Without the cells being broken down by bacteria, zombies don't rot, and can exist in their undead state for literally years.
    I've not read the Zombie Survival Guide, but could I clarify that they suffer massive organ damage and tissue death prior to death, but afterwards their bodies enter some form of biological stasis, with the Solanum providing the energy for both locomotion and this stasis?

    I assume that this Solanum also provides the reason why the zombies aren't attacked by wildlife and bugs?

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    They also never tire or get bored or feel pain, which makes them hard to keep out, because they'll just keep attacking the barrier until either it collapses or their bodies literally shut down from muscle degradation. As Brooks puts it, "Barricades that would stop three grown men have been known to eventually fall to a single determined zombie." After three hours of punching a wooden wall, your hand will hurt too much and you'll be too tired to keep punching. A zombie will do this for three days without difficulty, until the wall simply caves in.
    And because of their biological stasis, the zombie doesn't have any broken bones and torn muscles from this? Or does the act of destroying the barricade also pretty much incapacitate the zombie in the process?

    Note that pain is a warning sign that you're damaging your body through over-stressing it, so a zombie can keep up its superior physical capabilities for a while until it literally tears itself apart (presumably what you mean by muscle degradation). However this contradicts the biological stasis mentioned earlier, unless I'm mis-understanding what Solanum does.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I've not read the Zombie Survival Guide, but could I clarify that they suffer massive organ damage and tissue death prior to death, but afterwards their bodies enter some form of biological stasis, with the Solanum providing the energy for both locomotion and this stasis?

    I assume that this Solanum also provides the reason why the zombies aren't attacked by wildlife and bugs?
    Yes, you should read Zombie Survival Guide.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    And because of their biological stasis, the zombie doesn't have any broken bones and torn muscles from this? Or does the act of destroying the barricade also pretty much incapacitate the zombie in the process?

    Note that pain is a warning sign that you're damaging your body through over-stressing it, so a zombie can keep up its superior physical capabilities for a while until it literally tears itself apart (presumably what you mean by muscle degradation). However this contradicts the biological stasis mentioned earlier, unless I'm mis-understanding what Solanum does.
    Yes, you really should read Zombie Survival Guide.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    It looks like it'll be a as big a middle finger to the book as Starship Troopers was to its own book.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by TechnoScrabble View Post
    It looks like it'll be a as big a middle finger to the book as Starship Troopers was to its own book.
    Worse. The ST Movie and Book were at least both satire, even if they ended up satirizing polar-opposite attitudes. WWZ is just a bland, film-by-numbers action flick using the WWZ mythos as window-dressing.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by The Succubus View Post
    I confess I've never read World War Z but Max Brook's Zombie Survival Guide did show a lot of careful thought and research throughout.
    No no it did not. Well perhaps careful thought but there are so many flaws throughout that book which suggests a total lack of research.

    Like how much damage the human body can sustain and still be considered a threat. For example if you got shot in the arm and couldn't feel pain? You would be lucky to be able to move your arm correctly as the muscles would be torn up, worse by even trying the muscles get torn up more. If you could move your arm you wouldn't be very strong with it. It's not a matter of pain it's a matter of your muscle has a gaping hole in it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    *Why Zombies don't work.*
    Exactly this post. Go read it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Oni View Post
    I've not read the Zombie Survival Guide, but could I clarify that they suffer massive organ damage and tissue death prior to death, but afterwards their bodies enter some form of biological stasis, with the Solanum providing the energy for both locomotion and this stasis?

    I assume that this Solanum also provides the reason why the zombies aren't attacked by wildlife and bugs?



    And because of their biological stasis, the zombie doesn't have any broken bones and torn muscles from this? Or does the act of destroying the barricade also pretty much incapacitate the zombie in the process?

    Note that pain is a warning sign that you're damaging your body through over-stressing it, so a zombie can keep up its superior physical capabilities for a while until it literally tears itself apart (presumably what you mean by muscle degradation). However this contradicts the biological stasis mentioned earlier, unless I'm mis-understanding what Solanum does.
    Alright, Solarium basically makes them immune to rotting as wildlife naturally avoids them and they're poisonous to everything. Except humans. We zombify instead.

    However it does not address the degradation that the human body naturally goes through every time you do well anything. As well as all the minor injuries that you get when you can't feel pain and lack the intelligence that slugs have.

    So yeah they might take a while to rot but they will cripple themselves very fast just by not resting. Plus they are very easy to just walk away from. Hordes of zombies don't happen because they are hunting prey that are faster then them, smarter then them, possess tools and the ability to create barriers, and possess weapons that can easily destroy zombies.


    The problem with Brooks is that he went out to make his zombies realistic and still an actual threat. Naturally he failed as I think that's pretty much impossible. But he didn't realize that he failed and that's the problem.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Brooks addresses the decay of muscles and the zombie's inability to heal. As he puts it, "this allows for an all-powerful first attack, but results in progressively weaker zombies over time." Basically, a human doesn't put 100% into their attacks because they will feel pain or exhaustion, but a zombie does. This means a "fresh" zombie is terrifyingly strong and persistent, but the older a zombie is, the less of a threat it is. Still, if you're facing a horde of zombies and the eldest of them is less than a week old, that means you are proper buggered.

    And yes, the Solanum is the reason why they don't decay. Flesh doesn't just vanish over time, after all; it breaks down and rots, largely because of bacteria, and most of these kinds of bacteria will stay away from infected flesh. The result is basically like treating the flesh with a preservative. Not all bacteria are repelled, which is why zombies do rot over time, but the process is much, much slower than with a non-animated corpse.

    As for the rest of it, it's a recurring theme in both World War Z and The Zombie Survival Guide. He tells the story of literally dozens of people who took on swarms of a hundred zombies and survived by simply not being an idiot - they found an elevated position where the zombies could not harm them, used their literal mindlessness against them, and wiped out the swarm with relatively little difficulty. Other stories also involved people simply escaping the zombies by not backing into a corner and standing still - if you can move outside the range of their senses, and they don't stumble across you by sheer luck after walking in the same direction for an hour, you can get away easily.
    What it deconstructs is the sort of person who says, "Man, I'd kill those zombies by getting the semi-automatic I keep under my bed and blowing their heads off!" It deconstructs them by pointing out that the average person would find it hard to open fire on another person, even if that person was a zombie. It deconstructs them by pointing out that unless you knew for certain that person was a zombie, shooting them means you're a deranged psychopath, while that person could simply be unwell. It deconstructs them by pointing out that a 60-shot clip is wonderful if you can make every shot count and there are less than 61 zombies, but that if there is one more zombie than you have bullets for, or if you miss a single time in this high-pressure situation, you will die. And then after all of that, it deconstructs them literally by tearing them to pieces.

    If World War Z is a parody or a sendup of anything, it's mocking the people who say, "But I could easily survive a zombie apocalypse!" by pointing out that no, you probably couldn't. You don't actually have those survival skills at hand, you don't have those tools at hand, and even if you do, there are ten thousand zombies and you'll be beaten by sheer numbers.
    Last edited by Tergon; 2012-11-10 at 01:52 AM.
    ...but of course that's just my opinion.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    The body of the zombie is already succumbing to necrosis. It's rotting just from the virus itself. You seem to be missing the point. It doesn't matter what the books are "about", and reading them I certainly didn't get what you're getting, it's about Max Brook acting like he knows what he's talking about when he doesn't actually have a clue. That's the main sticking point.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    Brooks addresses the decay of muscles and the zombie's inability to heal. As he puts it, "this allows for an all-powerful first attack, but results in progressively weaker zombies over time." Basically, a human doesn't put 100% into their attacks because they will feel pain or exhaustion, but a zombie does. This means a "fresh" zombie is terrifyingly strong and persistent, but the older a zombie is, the less of a threat it is. Still, if you're facing a horde of zombies and the eldest of them is less than a week old, that means you are proper buggered.
    Oh hey I forgot that he actually mentioned it. Doesn't change anything though. I mean congrats for mentioning it but a failure at how fast you'd lose strength.

    I mean have you ever worked a good 12-14 hour shift? By the end of it your feet are killing you and you're exhausted. And that's with breaks. Imagine if you never stopped standing and were constantly putting stress on your legs, pain aside I doubt you'd be able to move after a week, not just be slightly less strong. If you weren't healing from the stress that is, unless of course you were somebody who was very strong and used to such things. But then you are in the best condition to not become a zombie in the first place.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    With respect - Max Brooks may not know what he's talking about, but are you saying that you do? Dude's talking about a fictional zombie apocalypse. Nobody knows if what he's saying is true or not.

    Yes, he uses outdated military tactics, and yes, he causes a contrived string of coincidences to make his story happen. This is a tactic that can also be seen in 99% of all stories ever. If the story was, "something happened exactly as expected and the results were in no way surprising" then it'd be a pretty lousy story, wouldn't it?
    He takes artistic license. And yes, he runs with it further than he probably ought to. But so what? It makes for a fun story, and at least he does a better job of making it "real" than the 99% I mentioned above. He's made an effort, as opposed to Roland Emerich justifying the end of the world in 2012 because "The Neutrinos have mutated and they're heating up the planet!"
    Max Brooks is attempting to justify a fictional, physically impossible phenomenon, and then stretch that into a global apocalypse, and we're splitting hairs because his fictional biology lesson isn't fictional enough?

    Look, if you don't like the story, then that's fine; I respect that, and you as well. Nobody's saying you have to. But at this point in the conversation, this is like walking into a thread about whether Batman or Iron Man would win in a fight, and informing everyone that You guys are talking about fictional characters, this is pointless? Didn't you know they're not real? Of course we know that, but that doesn't mean the story isn't fun.
    Essentially, I'm saying don't be that guy. You don't wanna be that guy. If you didn't like World War Z or thought it was badly done, that's fine; I just disagree.
    ...but of course that's just my opinion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    With respect - Max Brooks may not know what he's talking about, but are you saying that you do? Dude's talking about a fictional zombie apocalypse. Nobody knows if what he's saying is true or not.
    Really? No one knows whether or not what he's saying is true or not? I don't think so. You'd be right if the complaints were only on the Zombie bit but it's not. It's about the biology and the weapons and the survival and a whole ton of other things that he claimed to research. As to whether or not -I- personally know about all of what he's talking about...that's not really the point is it? I mean, I know enough to know Max Brooks is talking out his butt. But I'm not the one who wrote a series of books claiming I know what I'm talking about when I don't.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    With respect - Max Brooks may not know what he's talking about, but are you saying that you do? Dude's talking about a fictional zombie apocalypse. Nobody knows if what he's saying is true or not.

    Yes, he uses outdated military tactics, and yes, he causes a contrived string of coincidences to make his story happen. This is a tactic that can also be seen in 99% of all stories ever. If the story was, "something happened exactly as expected and the results were in no way surprising" then it'd be a pretty lousy story, wouldn't it?
    He takes artistic license. And yes, he runs with it further than he probably ought to. But so what? It makes for a fun story, and at least he does a better job of making it "real" than the 99% I mentioned above. He's made an effort, as opposed to Roland Emerich justifying the end of the world in 2012 because "The Neutrinos have mutated and they're heating up the planet!"
    Max Brooks is attempting to justify a fictional, physically impossible phenomenon, and then stretch that into a global apocalypse, and we're splitting hairs because his fictional biology lesson isn't fictional enough?

    Look, if you don't like the story, then that's fine; I respect that, and you as well. Nobody's saying you have to. But at this point in the conversation, this is like walking into a thread about whether Batman or Iron Man would win in a fight, and informing everyone that You guys are talking about fictional characters, this is pointless? Didn't you know they're not real? Of course we know that, but that doesn't mean the story isn't fun.
    Essentially, I'm saying don't be that guy. You don't wanna be that guy. If you didn't like World War Z or thought it was badly done, that's fine; I just disagree.
    That's not the problem. If he had went with the classic of not explaining anything then it would be fine.

    However he didn't and instead explained pretty much everything about the zombies. And by those rules they do not work. And by that I mean that they aren't a threat. Not for an End of the World scenario at least. I doubt they would be a threat even on the individual scale.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Oh, okay, I get it. The problem is that Brooks claimed to be an expert on all these topics when the plot holes trip him up.

    Just one question, then - where, exactly, does Brooks make those claims? I mean, I'm holding my copies of the books here. I found the bit where he thanks those who assisted with his research, and I found the bit where he openly acknowledges that not all of the tactics listed in his two books will play out the same way 100% of the time, and of course I found the bit where the book is listed as Fiction.
    But judging on the comments in this thread, I'm forced to assume that in some copies of the book, there's a paragraph where Brooks says, "I have researched every possible way these scenarios would play out, and I have chosen the ones that will be correct 100% of the time. Everything I have said is completely real and true, no part of this has any artistic license whatsoever, and above all, I am a bona-fide expert on all of these subjects and therefore you must accept everything I have said as fact." And it's frustrating because, y'know, my copy of the book doesn't have that paragraph. If I could just get a page number, or..?

    Or maybe (utterly crazy idea here), he did a lot of research on how these scenarios would play out, asked a lot of experts, did all the hard work people are lampshading here, and then picked and chose which parts he wanted to use in his story. Y'know, like every author who has ever written a fictional piece has done in the history of storytelling. And maybe he figured that since he was writing a fictional book about a fictional apocalypse caused by fictional monsters, a couple of plot holes in his scientific theory and military tactics didn't matter horribly much, and that hopefully the reader would just go along for the ride.
    Oh, and maybe he also littered the book with in-jokes and lampshades, so that if a reader did pick up his book and thought "this is unrealistic", they'd catch those clever references of him essentially saying, "Yeah, of course it is, but so what? Just sit back and enjoy the show."

    You can say that you don't like the story because Brooks claims to be an expert when he's not. And that'd be fine - if at any point he actually claimed to be an expert. Which as far as I can see, he does not! He tells the fictional story as it happened in his universe, and really that's his ballgame. We can't say, "No it didn't!" because it's his universe, so yes it did. And he says he did a lot of research, and I'm quite certain he did, but that doesn't mean that every printed detail is presented as the word of a professional and an expert quoting facts. It means he did some research and that is all it means. Whether or not he used any is completely irrelevant to the fact that he did it. As for the fact that it's unrealistic - it's a book about the zombie apocalypse. Of course it's bloody unrealistic.

    If you don't like the book, that's fine! Then own up and just say that. It's opinion, nobody's gonna argue, you're allowed to not like it. But saying you don't like it because some outrageous fact is not 100% scientifically accurate when Brooks claimed it was... that's so far removed from the point of the story that you might as well be complaining that you hate the fact that the book is made of paper. It's got nothing to do with anything.
    ...but of course that's just my opinion.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    That's not the problem. If he had went with the classic of not explaining anything then it would be fine.

    However he didn't and instead explained pretty much everything about the zombies. And by those rules they do not work. And by that I mean that they aren't a threat. Not for an End of the World scenario at least. I doubt they would be a threat even on the individual scale.
    Man, that's the whole point of the book. Tergon has said so several times. I'm forced to agree with him. If you don't like it, fine. Just don't be that guy.

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