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  1. - Top - End - #91
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    Oh, okay, I get it. The problem is that Brooks claimed to be an expert on all these topics when the plot holes trip him up.

    Just one question, then - where, exactly, does Brooks make those claims? I mean, I'm holding my copies of the books here. I found the bit where he thanks those who assisted with his research, and I found the bit where he openly acknowledges that not all of the tactics listed in his two books will play out the same way 100% of the time, and of course I found the bit where the book is listed as Fiction.
    But judging on the comments in this thread, I'm forced to assume that in some copies of the book, there's a paragraph where Brooks says, "I have researched every possible way these scenarios would play out, and I have chosen the ones that will be correct 100% of the time. Everything I have said is completely real and true, no part of this has any artistic license whatsoever, and above all, I am a bona-fide expert on all of these subjects and therefore you must accept everything I have said as fact." And it's frustrating because, y'know, my copy of the book doesn't have that paragraph. If I could just get a page number, or..?

    Or maybe (utterly crazy idea here), he did a lot of research on how these scenarios would play out, asked a lot of experts, did all the hard work people are lampshading here, and then picked and chose which parts he wanted to use in his story. Y'know, like every author who has ever written a fictional piece has done in the history of storytelling. And maybe he figured that since he was writing a fictional book about a fictional apocalypse caused by fictional monsters, a couple of plot holes in his scientific theory and military tactics didn't matter horribly much, and that hopefully the reader would just go along for the ride.
    Oh, and maybe he also littered the book with in-jokes and lampshades, so that if a reader did pick up his book and thought "this is unrealistic", they'd catch those clever references of him essentially saying, "Yeah, of course it is, but so what? Just sit back and enjoy the show."

    You can say that you don't like the story because Brooks claims to be an expert when he's not. And that'd be fine - if at any point he actually claimed to be an expert. Which as far as I can see, he does not! He tells the fictional story as it happened in his universe, and really that's his ballgame. We can't say, "No it didn't!" because it's his universe, so yes it did. And he says he did a lot of research, and I'm quite certain he did, but that doesn't mean that every printed detail is presented as the word of a professional and an expert quoting facts. It means he did some research and that is all it means. Whether or not he used any is completely irrelevant to the fact that he did it. As for the fact that it's unrealistic - it's a book about the zombie apocalypse. Of course it's bloody unrealistic.

    If you don't like the book, that's fine! Then own up and just say that. It's opinion, nobody's gonna argue, you're allowed to not like it. But saying you don't like it because some outrageous fact is not 100% scientifically accurate when Brooks claimed it was... that's so far removed from the point of the story that you might as well be complaining that you hate the fact that the book is made of paper. It's got nothing to do with anything.
    How's a one hour video about his writing style, realism and all the other stuff we're harping on. That good enough?

    And he says he did a lot of research, and I'm quite certain he did, but that doesn't mean that every printed detail is presented as the word of a professional and an expert quoting facts.
    Hold up. You're asking us to point out where he claims he did research but you know here it is. Why do we have to do the leg work when you know that's the case? No one's said he claimed he was an expert. No one is saying that he's quoting facts. We're saying that if he did the research (and he may have) it's not implemented well. Or at all in some cases. That's the only argument. Your continued insistence of "Well, you don't like it and that's cool but own up to it being the real reason" is just silly. How often do people have to say "The level of research isn't reflected in the writing. And that's our problem" for you to understand that's all we're saying? No one here has some vendetta against the guy. He's a very funny public speaker. He's passionate about the subject he's writing about and it shows. But his grasp on what weapons actually do to the body or how things decay or any other number of things is lacking. And that would be FINE were it not for his insistence that he wants to inject realism into his work.

    It's his attempts to make the world plausible and realistic where his work breaks down and makes reading his books an utterly. His world isn't realistic. And sure, you can say "But it's a Zombie Story! It doesn't need to be Realistic" but ya know, the author disagrees with you. On a lot of points. He hates "Brain Eating Zombies" because it's not realistic. He's gone so far as calling Return of the Living Dead the Song of the South of Zombie movies. Strong words, albeit amusing. But it speaks volumes about the man and his general level of study on the subject. Universities don't just let anyone go and give talks after all.
    Last edited by Tebryn; 2012-11-10 at 03:52 AM.

  2. - Top - End - #92
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Soras Teva Gee View Post
    Here's the difference: zeds add exactly nothing to the equation.

    They are literally the oldest conceivable army in existence, unorganized, unarmored, unarmed, infantry. What's going to happen when an a zed comes up against a position with an M2, one of the most dirt common machine guns in the world? Something probably not unlike what happens to this watermelon, only worse because that was just a rifle not automatic machine gun fire. And that's only the ground floor of what the weapons we have are capable of.
    Well, the setup, the new variable in the equation, is that zombies don't react as a watermelon, you fire them and obtain little to nothing.
    We can reason on the fact that they should be shredded to pieces, but it's a fiction work. Zombies got the powers the author gives them.
    The first part of the book is more about the mistakes done while dealing with the situation, and those mistakes are human flaws.
    Last edited by Killer Angel; 2012-11-10 at 03:49 AM.
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  3. - Top - End - #93
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Man, that's the whole point of the book. Tergon has said so several times. I'm forced to agree with him. If you don't like it, fine. Just don't be that guy.
    Wait the point is that the zombies aren't an actual threat? Or am I misunderstanding your point?
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    But his grasp on what weapons actually do to the body or how things decay or any other number of things is lacking. And that would be FINE were it not for his insistence that he wants to inject realism into his work.

    It's his attempts to make the world plausible and realistic where his work breaks down and makes reading his books an utterly. His world isn't realistic. And sure, you can say "But it's a Zombie Story! It doesn't need to be Realistic" but ya know, the author disagrees with you.
    I can't argue too much with this.
    So, I suppose I should consider myself lucky (i'm not sarcastic), for the fact that I'm still considering WWZ a "zombie Story that doesn't need to be realistic", despite the author's intention. My suspension of disbelief was settled with a high level of tolerance, in this specific case.
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  5. - Top - End - #95
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Forum Explorer View Post
    Wait the point is that the zombies aren't an actual threat? Or am I misunderstanding your point?
    Pretty much, yeah.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
    ...How often do people have to say "The level of research isn't reflected in the writing. And that's our problem" for you to understand that's all we're saying? No one here has some vendetta against the guy. He's a very funny public speaker. He's passionate about the subject he's writing about and it shows. But his grasp on what weapons actually do to the body or how things decay or any other number of things is lacking. And that would be FINE were it not for his insistence that he wants to inject realism into his work.
    Well, saying it once might be helpful.

    Seriously, go back over this thread. People said that the US Army losing to a million zombies was absurd; I said it might not be. It was brought up that the zombies' biology doesn't make sense; I summed up the Solanum "rules" to try and help make it clear. And over and over and over again, people said that they disliked the way that Max Brooks "claimed to be an expert" despite the fact that he has "clearly not done any research at all", both of which are complete lies.
    At no point in the discussion did anyone put it as simply, or as reasonably as you just did. And you want to know what? I can agree with it, the way you just said it. Max Brooks is a clever man, and he did do a lot of research, and he never proclaimed himself an expert on everything, but he got some stuff wrong when he wrote his story. The difference is that I quite liked the story despite that, and you apparently did not. And that's fine, because as I've been saying this whole time, I can respect a difference of opinion. I just felt the need to defend a story I like, and an author I respect, against some legitimately insulting digs that were being taken at him.

    So y'know, sure. You're right, I agree. White flag waving, here, and all it took was for someone to actually say their argument in a way that wasn't nonsense.
    ...but of course that's just my opinion.

  7. - Top - End - #97
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    After three hours of punching a wooden wall, your hand will hurt too much and you'll be too tired to keep punching. A zombie will do this for three days without difficulty, until the wall simply caves in.
    Except that the zombie would cave in much sooner. Pain is a warning sign for damage. Even if the zombie is ignoring the pain, he still suffers the damage. His hand will give in long before the wall and long before the third day
    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    Brooks addresses the decay of muscles and the zombie's inability to heal.
    Yes, but he's completely wrong with his assumptions about it
    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    Yes, he uses outdated military tactics,
    The issue is that even these outdated military tactic would have worked. He not only uses that tactic to make it happen, he also ignoring the results of using that tactic to make it happen. Even if the infanterie flees and the vehicles run out of bullets, zombies are no threat to an IFV or MBT, even if they swarm over the vehicles while they mash zombies underneath them, these zombies who managed to climb all over them couldn't crack them open. After driving over enough zombies they could just drive to somewhere and have the zombies being cleaned off with no danger to the crew at all.

  8. - Top - End - #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by SoC175 View Post
    The issue is that even these outdated military tactic would have worked. He not only uses that tactic to make it happen, he also ignoring the results of using that tactic to make it happen. Even if the infanterie flees and the vehicles run out of bullets, zombies are no threat to an IFV or MBT, even if they swarm over the vehicles while they mash zombies underneath them, these zombies who managed to climb all over them couldn't crack them open. After driving over enough zombies they could just drive to somewhere and have the zombies being cleaned off with no danger to the crew at all.
    MBTs nothing. The US army has 80,000 or so M113 APCs, they weigh 12 tons, will make 40mph, and have an operational range of 300 miles.

    Line them up, pick a direction, and drive. Zombie problem solved..

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    At no point in the discussion did anyone put it as simply, or as reasonably as you just did. And you want to know what? I can agree with it, the way you just said it. Max Brooks is a clever man, and he did do a lot of research, and he never proclaimed himself an expert on everything, but he got some stuff wrong when he wrote his story.

    The problem people have is that, well, the thing he got wrong was the story.

    It's like doing a jigsaw when you've got the wrong pieces, you can try and force them to join up, but people will notice that the picture looks wrong.

    A really clever person would have realised that zombies are too crap to work in an apocalypse scenario (especially in open combat with modern military forces) and not written that, because the jigsaw simply cannot be put together with those pieces, they don't fit together.

    That's why Mira Grant's Newsflesh books are probably the cleverest zombie fiction, because the zombies aren't the story, the story just happens in a world where there are zombies (and Kellis-Amberlee zombies had far more advantages than Solanum ones, 100% infection rate of all mammals, fast mutation rate, active conversion in any mammal over 40lbs bodyweight on either death or contact with live state virus, that means that everyone is going to turn when they die, every mammal is a potential vector, and the Rising was still put down in a few months because zombies are crap, but it's ancient history to the characters of the books. Also, zombie bears).

    Hell, even Pride and Prejudice and Zombies is better, and that's a book where the joke is basically over when you've read the title, because the book itself is basically just Pride and Prejudice, the zombies are an incidental problem that society just gets on and deals with, just as they should be.

    Zombies are rubbish, you can't write a story about them beating modern military and have it work without having the zombies be actively magical or having Romero style spontaneous and arbitrary conversion (Even Highschool of the Dead does better, and that's a zombie pantsu show, as it's arbitrary conversion so the military is instantly composed of 33% zombies because they spontaneously convert, and they still get their **** together and sort things out).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    Oh, okay, I get it. The problem is that Brooks claimed to be an expert on all these topics when the plot holes trip him up.
    They are not plot holes. They are plot PITS. I mean the laws of *physics* get ignored as well as those of biology. He tried to make a real world explanation something that does not work and expects people to buy it. It's really an insult to peoples inteligence. As someone else said if he had not tried to push a BS explaination the story would have been better as it destroyed the needed suspension of belief. The more a story clashes with itself the worse a story will be.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by GloatingSwine View Post
    MBTs nothing. The US army has 80,000 or so M113 APCs, they weigh 12 tons, will make 40mph, and have an operational range of 300 miles.

    Line them up, pick a direction, and drive. Zombie problem solved..
    Until the zombies stop standing around in nice, runoverable groups... or until you run out of fuel. 'Cause brother, those things suck fuel like a sponge.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Okay, first things first. I liked World War Z. Don't start asking me about the Too Dumb to Live generals who thought Yonkers was a good idea, or the biology of Solanum or how feasible that is. For me, the zombie genre has never been about the zombies. It's about people and how they - as persons, as groups, as societies, as a species - function or fail to function in the face of overwhelming odds, in a world where we're no longer the apex predator and the king of the hill.

    In that sense, I believe WWZ works, because barring the most obvious too-cool-to-be-real characters (I'm looking at you, blind gardener!), the book introduces the reader to a large variety of human responses. There's those who try to profit from it, those who try to escape it, those who make horrible decisions (both failures and for the greater good), those who fight back... The book lampshades zombie movies and makes fun of various people and pop culture phenomena, suggesting how these things and people might react if the dead started chewing on the living.

    It's a book about people and how they lived through World War Z, much as Brooks's inspiration was a book about people living through the Second World War. It touches on desperation, panic, determination and the bittersweet sensation of victory in a world that will never be the same. Does it go over the top at times? Yes. Does that diminish my enjoyment of the book? No. I enjoyed the book's building of atmosphere and the play between different points of view, and that was what I thought the more interesting and important part of the novel. Not graphs on how many ways a zombie couldn't work in the real world.

    Which is why I am so goddamn disappointed and frankly pissed off about the trailer. It takes what was a touching and very different take on the zombie genre, and turns it into Just Another Zombie Movie with Nuclear Family Values, Part CLXVIII. I'm even more miffed about this having heard that there was an older script that followed the book more closely, making it more of a documentary-style piece of fiction that would have had a fair chance at the Oscars - but instead we get Just Another Zombie Movie etc. It will probably be about as touching as a piece of head cheese, but it will rake in the cash by the truckload.

    Frickin' Hollywood...
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by North_Ranger View Post
    Until the zombies stop standing around in nice, runoverable groups... or until you run out of fuel. 'Cause brother, those things suck fuel like a sponge.
    The thing about zombies is, well, they're zombies. They'll only stop standing around in nice runoverable groups when there aren't enough of them left to. They're not capable of adapting to enemy tactics because they're dead.

    That's another element that makes any military vs. zombies story not work except as a crushing defeat of zombies, because they're literally 100% predictable in all situations.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Pretty much, yeah.
    I didn't get that impression but I honestly like that idea more.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tergon View Post
    Well, saying it once might be helpful.

    Seriously, go back over this thread. People said that the US Army losing to a million zombies was absurd; I said it might not be. It was brought up that the zombies' biology doesn't make sense; I summed up the Solanum "rules" to try and help make it clear. And over and over and over again, people said that they disliked the way that Max Brooks "claimed to be an expert" despite the fact that he has "clearly not done any research at all", both of which are complete lies.
    At no point in the discussion did anyone put it as simply, or as reasonably as you just did. And you want to know what? I can agree with it, the way you just said it. Max Brooks is a clever man, and he did do a lot of research, and he never proclaimed himself an expert on everything, but he got some stuff wrong when he wrote his story. The difference is that I quite liked the story despite that, and you apparently did not. And that's fine, because as I've been saying this whole time, I can respect a difference of opinion. I just felt the need to defend a story I like, and an author I respect, against some legitimately insulting digs that were being taken at him.

    So y'know, sure. You're right, I agree. White flag waving, here, and all it took was for someone to actually say their argument in a way that wasn't nonsense.
    I actually CRTL+F'd the entire thread for the word Expert, Master and a few other synonyms and the only person that's used any of the words is you. I hate to do it but it's time to call a spade a spade. You've been straw manning us this entire time. No one has said that Max Brooks has claimed he's an expert.

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    Quote Originally Posted by North_Ranger View Post
    Until the zombies stop standing around in nice, runoverable groups
    By then you have thinned the herd so much that it's just cleaning the leftovers.
    Quote Originally Posted by North_Ranger View Post
    ... or until you run out of fuel. 'Cause brother, those things suck fuel like a sponge.
    300 miles operational range. Just go back to base to load up on fuel every 200 miles of driving over zombies.

    If you make the misstake and end up with no fuel, just stay inside the vehicle which the zombies can't breach and wait for extraction.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Really you odn't even have to use military equipment. Go to a construction site, put some steel to protect the driver/vital areas and go to town. A steam roller would do great and even a combine harvester might be usefull.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    I appreciate that the discussion has moved on, but here goes:

    I can appreciate the decisions they have made, even if I really enjoyed the original book- I believe that I am going to watch this movie, and may well enjoy it, on it's own merits.

    In a so-bad-it's-good kinds of way.

    As opposed to the original zombies from the book, I can see the super-fast zombies being a serious threat, if not a world-ending one- while they are easily killed by the sort of weapons described here, the fact that they would be found- and could spread horribly fast- in an urban environment means that even if they would lose a traditional battle, they would cause incalculable loss to the civilian population before a major military campaign could be mounted.

    The sheer speed of the things, as well as their ferocity, means that there numbers would climb very quickly- your average joe and jane would simply not be able to cope. Hell, in an urban battle, it would be even odds.

    Pity about Brad Pitt. But I can live with that.

    If this film manages to be to the zombie theme what 'Battle:LA' was to the alien invasion theme, then I will enjoy the movie, at least the first time around.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Having carefully read both sides of the argument here and considered the points that have been eloquently made, I feel I can come to a solid conclusion on my previous statement.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    It's unbelievable because the explanation boils down to one of two things;
    Magically immune zombies laughing off machinegun and tank fire or the military simply forgetting to bring enough ammunition.
    This is incorrect.
    The battle of Yonkers goes the way it does because of Magically Immune Zombies AND the military forgetting to bring enough ammunition. Fair enough.

    It would have been interesting to see it all played out more closely to the book. I'm not sure it would have translated very favourably, admittedly. There's a good chance it would simply have served to highlight the flaws. Though, the zombie-ooze crowd thing is kind of hilarious, so I'm not sure they've necessarily solved that problem as much as replaced it with a new and entertaining problem.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    I must admit, I have not read World War Z, but I wanted to. I just have to ask one thing. Are the zombies in the book mindless and slow like classical zombies (As opposed to this rage virus part-liquid flowing zombies that were portrayed in the trailer)? The reason I ask because when I saw the book that one of my friends was reading at the time, the zombie had a helmet and was carrying an automatic weapon in his hands and I think my friend said the zombies evolved over time to get intellegence to use weaponry or stuff like that. I may be mixing up my friends who told me this (I have dozens of friends into zombies, so I know alot about the different kinds because of this), but is this what happens in the Book World War Z?

    Just curious.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    No, they stay slow shambling and stupid in World War Z by Max Brooks. Whether there are similarly named books with gun-toting zombies, I couldn't begin to guess.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    seems like a typical popcorn movie. why all the hate?

    to the discussion of zombie killing. we have an entire arsenal of weapons that are illegal to use on human beings because they cause too much pain and suffering

    this is the list populated by flamethrowers, hollow point bullets, white phosphorous, and chemical agents that can literally melt flesh.

    there are others, but these are notable for causing excessive tissue damage. zombies without flesh cant move.
    blinding lasers are banned by various conventions, but they too would be great against zombies.
    Last edited by thubby; 2012-11-10 at 08:56 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thubby View Post
    seems like a typical popcorn movie. why all the hate?

    to the discussion of zombie killing. we have an entire arsenal of weapons that are illegal to use on human beings because they cause too much pain and suffering

    this is the list populated by flamethrowers, hollow point bullets, white phosphorous, and chemical agents that can literally melt flesh.

    there are others, but these are notable for causing excessive tissue damage. zombies without flesh cant move.
    blinding lasers are banned by various conventions, but they too would be great against zombies.
    Because it's a waste of an amazing intellectual property. If it was called 'Zombie Assault 2012' or 'New York Vs. Zombies', or 'When Zombies Attack', it'd be a decent popcorn movie. But by calling it 'World War Z: The Movie' and making a generic zombie movie, it means a movie actually faithful to the book will likely never get made.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    The movie might look passable if only it had a different name.

    I appear to be in the minority in this thread, but I actually liked the book. I thought the vignettes were well done, although some were certainly more interesting than others.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    All in all, if I had to choose a zombie movie, I would rather see this one.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by historiasdeosos View Post
    The movie might look passable if only it had a different name.

    I appear to be in the minority in this thread, but I actually liked the book. I thought the vignettes were well done, although some were certainly more interesting than others.
    As far as I noticed, only 2 posters in the thread did not like the book.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    I really enjoyed Brooks' pieces of fiction meant solely to entertain in spite of itself or what anyone thought of it, with no regard given to his assertions on the genre because I don't care about his assertions on the genre. He made an entertaining, though inconsistent, universe in which an interpretation of zombies exist and pose superficially plausible problems for humanity. I think that's where the buck stops for a lot of people but I could be wrong.

    Given that, it is a bummer that this movie has all of the trappings of a bad box office blockbuster with little attention given to the source material. That trailer seriously looked like the trailer to 2012. I suppose I shouldn't have expected more considering the ridiculous production issues that have taken this project off the rails time and time again.
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Well the stupid things of the book aside, its a shame that a neat idea was shoved aside for the same old shtick.

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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Quote Originally Posted by Tebryn View Post
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    Default Re: World War Z (the film)

    Well, this is a bit depressing. Not entirely unexpected, though. I heard that WWZ was in production a while ago, and I was somewhat skeptical that it would be true to the book. It looks like my fears were entirely justified.

    That said, I actually think the movie looked pretty awesome in the trailer. I love zombie movies, and this one has the potential to be good. But it's not WWZ, and they shouldn't call it that! When I see it, I'll try to think of it as A Zombie Movie, not World War Z. Because otherwise I'll be horribly disappointed.
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