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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Which is Stronger.
    My cousin and I where talking. We where argued over who is stronger. Is it just becuase the Klingons are always science-y and the Klingon's are the Warriors? We couldn't figure out, since there wasn't any Klingon on Vulcan's action. I was hoping you wizened scholars in the Playground to help is out.

    We are wondering both in a straight up Lifting Match who would win.
    Also in a hand to hand Wrestling type match.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    In Star Trek Voyager, Ensign Vorik, a Vulcan, is going through Pon'far. He chooses Belanna, a half klingon as his mate. She chooses to beat three flavors of crap out of him. Its not a walk in the park, but she is just a better fighter than he is. They get into the clinches where they are trying to physically overpower each other a few times, but I think belanna wins those too. So my money goes with klingons being physically stronger, and most likely better warriors since thats pretty much what they do. Sure yo see some klingon nimrods getting their butts kicked from time to time, but im pretty sure the general thing is klingons win in a straight up fight.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Klingons are probably generally physically stronger (though by how much probably very much depends on the individuals in question) and are more likely to be skilled in close-combat, though a reasonably trained Vulcan (i.e. one who as learned the Vulcan Neck Pinch) would have a fairly effective way of putting one down. (A good question is how much of that is biologically, or culturally (because fighting is part of Klingon society); I suspect there's probably an element of both in there.)

    Notably, both Belanna and Vorik were engineering staff and thus not strictly combatants by role (and Belanna futher had the advantage of being ex-Maquis - and thus likely been exposed to more combat experience) than Vorik was. She might not have done nearly so well against, say Tuvok (but at that level of engagement, it's all relative and nothing is garenteed).

    So, an average Klingon would probably win a weight lifting contest against an average Vulcan, and probably have the edge in an unarmed brawl against an average Vulcan, but a lot depends on training and expereince for the latter.

    (Notably, both races are "stronger" than humans, but that, in general means fairly little in the broad scheme of things.)

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Vulcans are all about the whole detachment from emotion thing because they are too violent to get their act together otherwise. So in theory a single vulcan going berserk could beat up a klingon or two quite easily if he had the suprise.
    However, they chose not to as a society and instead avoid confrontation and keep to themselves. The klingons are a major power in their own right, while the vulcans are just one small player in the Federation, and one that isn't very much involved in military things.
    Now the romulans went the way of always letting of some steam and they are probably just the same things the vulcans would be if they went for military power. And in that regard the romulans and the klingons seem to be about equals, with romulan tech giving them an edge to the klingons war obsession. Though they are no pansies when it comes to ground battles either.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Vulcans are all about the whole detachment from emotion thing because they are too violent to get their act together otherwise. So in theory a single vulcan going berserk could beat up a klingon or two quite easily if he had the suprise.
    However, they chose not to as a society and instead avoid confrontation and keep to themselves. The klingons are a major power in their own right, while the vulcans are just one small player in the Federation, and one that isn't very much involved in military things.
    Now the romulans went the way of always letting of some steam and they are probably just the same things the vulcans would be if they went for military power. And in that regard the romulans and the klingons seem to be about equals, with romulan tech giving them an edge to the klingons war obsession. Though they are no pansies when it comes to ground battles either.

    The thing is, vorik WAS berserk, and by the end, so was belanna. Im talking full on madness, and every time they clashed, from the very start when it was just vorik, to the final battle when they both wanted to fight, belanaa beat the stuffing out of him at every turn. And unlike vorik, she wasnt even full blooded klingon, so she was positively dainty in build compared to the lady klingons I see in tng. That vulcans are stronger than humans I wont deny, I just dont think they can count as on the level of a klingon.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    I don't know, they're pretty inconsistent in their depiction of Klingons. One Klingon can be deadly, 30 Kiingons are disposable mooks. Kind of like the Jaffa in Stargate or "elite" Clone Troopers in Star Wars.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    while the vulcans are just one small player in the Federation, and one that isn't very much involved in military things.
    The Vulcans are one of the very MAJOR players in the Federation. And they are more involved in the military side of things than is apparent.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    I don't know, they're pretty inconsistent in their depiction of Klingons. One Klingon can be deadly, 30 Kiingons are disposable mooks. Kind of like the Jaffa in Stargate or "elite" Clone Troopers in Star Wars.
    That's sort of the nature of the show. Klingons were, ultimately, victims as a race of "The Worf Effect." If the episode wasn't specifically about Klingons in at least some way, then they were pretty much on screen to get their backsides kicked across the set.

    And as for Vorik, I always got the impression from Voyager that he was . . . a "nerd Vulcan" for lack of a better term. He was basically just a nebish who really hadn't and wouldn't amount to terribly much, compared to the likes of Spock, Sarek, or even Tuvok. He just wasn't that remarkable a specimen. There were Klingon characters along the same lines as well, most notably Worf's own son Alexander who at least came to terms with it.

    As for which race specifically is physically stronger, I'd say an average Klingon is probably somewhat more sturdily built and stronger than an average Vulcan, but not by a whole lot, and in the end, Klingons are hampered by their general tendancies to lose control at times and comit to the battle for its own sake rather than the goal. Vulcans, while possibly not as strong and as long as they can maintain control, are much less likely to lose due to stupid mistakes or getting their blood up like a Klingon.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    I don't know how strong Klingons are supposed to be, but there are numerous episodes where Klingons don't seem to be THAT superior to humans in physical strength. They're like big strong humans from the look of it for the most part. Whether that's for dramatic effect when main characters are kicking the crap out of Klingons or not I don't know.

    However, in DS9, Cassidy mentions to Sisko that Vulcans are three times as strong as humans and Sisko mentions that they're much faster too. I also recall a TOS episode where Spock is enraged or mind controlled or something and he attacks Kirk who is wielding a metal pipe. Spock ends up bending the pipe practically in half when Kirk uses it to deflect an overhead blow which says something for their strength.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Bless them both, but this is a hilarious battle for me.

    We have the Tactically inept who have become such a parody of their own ideas and ideals versus the space hikikomori, who basically sit around doing nothing all the time outside of one or two officers.

    But then, that's also a little unfair. The Klingons may be terrible at battle and warfare but then they exist in the Star Trek universe, where everyone is terrible at battle, tactics and warfare. As for the Vulcans, well, the writers can't seem to remember they exist beyond a single character per series.

    I think at the end of the day, Klingon Vs Vulcan in a fist fight, the Klingon should theoretically edge it in strength and the Vulcan more likely to have proper martial art style training.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Tiki Snakes View Post
    I think at the end of the day, Klingon Vs Vulcan in a fist fight, the Klingon should theoretically edge it in strength and the Vulcan more likely to have proper martial art style training.
    I'd actually argue the reverse- I don't think Klingons have the absurd strength bonus Vulcans do, but they do spend all day every day thinking about fighting.

    In one episode of DS9, a handful of klingons with Bat'leths cut through a small army of mercenaries in hand to hand combat.

    It's also worth noting that Klingons have super redundant biology- If I recall correctly, there's an episode where Doctor Crusher botches a surgery on Worf and destroys his spine, but then his backup spine kicks in and he walks it off.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by shadow_archmagi View Post
    It's also worth noting that Klingons have super redundant biology- If I recall correctly, there's an episode where Doctor Crusher botches a surgery on Worf and destroys his spine, but then his backup spine kicks in and he walks it off.
    Actually, that was the other TNG doctor, Doctor Pulaski (or at least the same actress) who botched that operation and Crusher in one of her rare moments of awesome ripped into her with a particularly excellent speech decrying her medical practices.

    Come to think of it, it might be the only time that Crusher was on screen and not annoying me . . .
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    It was his 2nd heart that kicked in, in a sort of Deus Ex Machina way. Allowed them to keep their cast member while still proving how reckless Polaski was being.

    And yeah, there's a reason its he Vulcan neck pinch. it takes great strength to be able to perform it. Basically, Klingon probably wins due to sheer martial talent, though Vulcan is stronger.

    (Oh and this is based on the background info for the show, not based on how the writers' executed the ideas of the show)

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    I recall Vulcans being 3 times stronger than humans. To me that equals strength as the plot demands. For example whenever the token Vulcan turns evil for that episode, you bet his super (compared to humans) strength will show itself and heís going to overpower everyone. Yet we never see it used any other time. A Vulcan wonít be launching bad guys across a room in a big brawl, or K.O.ing enemies in one hit or heck just lifting something heavy. But he will be beating the crap out of his fellow crewmates.

    Now by contrast Klingons are never really shown as being significantly stronger than anyone, at least to my knowledge. However they might be stronger by virtue of physical fitness (they are supposed to be warriors after all). Think about it, what sort of physical labor is there on a star fleet vessel? They have transporters to move stuff around, magic wands to repair anything and everything. They donít even have to grow or prepare their own food; replicators magically provide any dish they want.

    But if youíre a warrior, youíre probably going have a physical fitness program to keep in shape for battle. I recall Worf having one, and real world militaries all over the planet use them. So thatís not too far of a stretch.

    Just some food for thought, although I feel it really boils down to plot. The one that is supposed to win will win.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    In a world as inconsistent as star trek and its half dozen variations, its really hard to nail down the specifics. Honestly, thats why I picked the voyager episode, because its the only one I can think of offhand where a klingon and a vulcan got into a real fight. Even then it wasnt perfect as it was vulcan versus half klingon. But they did fight, they did grapple, and belanna did win. Are there any other episodes with vulcan on klingon violence? it wouldnt surprise me, but I would honestly expect it to be something silly like, rampaging klingon gets a neck pinch from behind for the insta win. Because that neck pinch works like a combination sleeper hold and bottle of ether to the face. On every race. I think it even works on borg. And silicon based lifeforms, and that giant crystalline entity in tng only escaped because they couldnt figure out which part was the neck for a vulcan to grab ahold of.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    Which is Stronger.
    [...]
    We are wondering both in a straight up Lifting Match who would win.
    Also in a hand to hand Wrestling type match.
    ...simple question with a simple answer: "Which specimen has the larger muscle mass?"

    See, that wasn't so hard.

    Incidentally, this is the answer to the question, "Who would win in a fight," if both specimens have nigh-identical levels of skill.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyberwulf View Post
    Which is Stronger.
    My cousin and I where talking. We where argued over who is stronger. Is it just becuase the Klingons are always science-y and the Klingon's are the Warriors? We couldn't figure out, since there wasn't any Klingon on Vulcan's action. I was hoping you wizened scholars in the Playground to help is out.

    We are wondering both in a straight up Lifting Match who would win.
    Also in a hand to hand Wrestling type match.
    In a straight-up lifting match, the Vulcan wins. Vulcan canonically is a much larger planet with a much thinner atmosphere than Earth. As a consequence, Vulcans have evolved to handle the heavier gravitational pull, and are generally 3x as strong as an equivalent human in earth-standard gravity, and have higher endurance than a human because of the higher oxygenation of an earth-standard atmosphere. By contrast, Klingons have never been canonically listed as having higher strength than humans, but because they are typically played by larger, burlier actors, it's generally assumed that Klingons are about 1.5-2x as strong as a human. Not as strong as a Vulcan, but still very powerful.

    In a hand-to-hand wrestling match, the Klingon would probably win, although it depends on the Vulcan. Your average Vulcan doesn't actually go in for much in the way of hand-to-hand combat training. Vulcans strongly tend towards nonviolence, and they spend their time doing math and physics equations. And, let's face it, it's fairly rare when they need to have training given how much stronger they are than most races. By contrast, Klingons typically spend extensive time training for hand-to-hand combat. So it's a question of raw strength versus somewhat less strength but a lot of preparation. The edge in my book typically goes to the guy who's more prepared. That being said, those Vulcans who do train in hand-to-hand tend to be some of the most dangerous physical combatants in the Trekverse.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Susano-wo View Post
    It was his 2nd heart that kicked in, in a sort of Deus Ex Machina way. Allowed them to keep their cast member while still proving how reckless Polaski was being.
    That episode wasn't Polaski (I don't think her and Crusher were ever in the same episode). It was some random colleague of Crusher's who had come to the Enterprise and was using people to test her pet medical theories on.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by HandofShadows View Post
    The Vulcans are one of the very MAJOR players in the Federation. And they are more involved in the military side of things than is apparent.
    Well, true. In the Federation everyone is a minor player except for Humans. Vulcans seem to be the only other ones that have any real impact.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Well, true. In the Federation everyone is a minor player except for Humans. Vulcans seem to be the only other ones that have any real impact.
    Because they were, effectively, co-founders. They were in on the ground floor and there wasn't a soul in StarFleet willing to tell them no. Otherwise, yeah, most other races are kind of bit players as best we can tell, though there's a very real liklihood that this is due in part at least to how much makeup for some of these aliens costs on screen.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Yet from everything we've seen in five shows, the Federation is 90% humans, 9% vulcans, and 1% rest.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Yet from everything we've seen in five shows, the Federation is 90% humans, 9% vulcans, and 1% rest.
    Again, I don't know how much of those statistics I'd place on intent of show/universe writers and how much of it rests on humans just being less expensive and easier to portray on screen.

    At the same time, keep in mind we've heard of at least a couple of Federation ships that are manned entirely by Vulcans, Andorians, etc. So we know they're out there, we just don't often see them on screen.

    At the same time, it might just be that humans go out everywhere and breed like proverbial rabbits while the other races tend to be more insular and stay at home. It would actually, thematically, fit considering that what makes humans special in the Trekverse is just like B5, that we build communities where others would not.

    So, I suspect that it's a bit more complicated than "humans rule all and relegate all others to supporting positions."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yora View Post
    Yet from everything we've seen in five shows, the Federation is 90% humans, 9% vulcans, and 1% rest.
    Nah, thats the general makeup of federation CREWS. You get to see a lot of federation planets with clearly nonhuman species in charge.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Some possible factors which may favor a vulcan in such a matchup:

    1) Vulcan mastery of emotions. This might enable a Vulcan who understood Klingon psychology to taunt a Klingon opponent into a state of rage such that the Klingon starts making stupid mistakes. An angry opponent is an opponent half-beaten.

    2) Potential pon farr berserker. IIRC, normal humans can occasionally become capable of tremendous feats of strength outside their normal potential under stress. It's what enables a mother to lift a car off their child, and it also may have some been something the norse berserkers achieved through the use of trance and mind-altering substances. If a Vulcan is able to consciously enter into such a state, they may be quite a bit more dangerous and deadly than a Vulcan, or a Klingon, in a normal state of mind.

    3) Vulcan martial arts. Recall the "Vulcan nerve pinch" of the original series. If the Vulcans have an understanding of klingon anatomy similar to their understanding of humans, a Vulcan may be able to disable a Klingon with a very few precise hits.

    4) Forcible mind meld. Is it possible, during the fight, for the Vulcan to simply reach up, touch his enemy's forehead, and either reprogram his brain or simply melt it?

    None of which is to say the Vulcan is sure to win every time. But I think a Vulcan who has decided to kill you is always a dangerous opponent. I would say this is at the very least an even match.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    Again, I don't know how much of those statistics I'd place on intent of show/universe writers and how much of it rests on humans just being less expensive and easier to portray on screen.

    At the same time, keep in mind we've heard of at least a couple of Federation ships that are manned entirely by Vulcans, Andorians, etc. So we know they're out there, we just don't often see them on screen.

    At the same time, it might just be that humans go out everywhere and breed like proverbial rabbits while the other races tend to be more insular and stay at home. It would actually, thematically, fit considering that what makes humans special in the Trekverse is just like B5, that we build communities where others would not.

    So, I suspect that it's a bit more complicated than "humans rule all and relegate all others to supporting positions."
    I can accept that on its face -- it was simply impractical from a cost standpoint.

    Still, I think there could have been a little more of a creative effort in making TNG/DS9/Voyager's Federation a less human-centric civilization. Erring more towards the Commonwealth from Andromeda, where Earth is one world among many.

    Why would a society of trillions of sentient life forms have just one centre for training its military officers? I'd have Star Fleet Academies galore, particularly on the older member worlds. I would have shipyards in numerous systems, and Star Fleet ships with name that are culturally relevant to non-humans. I'd have the bureaucracy running the federation expanded outside of Sol. If I were any other members of this Federation I'd cry human colonialism and want my money back.

    All they'd need to do is simply throw out casual references now and then, nothing that actually costs time, energy, or money. The way Starfleet was depicted wasn't really different from Enterprise.

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    As the main topic, I seem to recall Enterprise where Jolene Blalock fought a hoard of Klingons in a Seven Samurai-esque plot. She did notably well, they even gave the Vulcans a form of Aikido.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    I can accept that on its face -- it was simply impractical from a cost standpoint.

    Still, I think there could have been a little more of a creative effort in making TNG/DS9/Voyager's Federation a less human-centric civilization. Erring more towards the Commonwealth from Andromeda, where Earth is one world among many.

    Why would a society of trillions of sentient life forms have just one centre for training its military officers? I'd have Star Fleet Academies galore, particularly on the older member worlds. I would have shipyards in numerous systems, and Star Fleet ships with name that are culturally relevant to non-humans. I'd have the bureaucracy running the federation expanded outside of Sol. If I were any other members of this Federation I'd cry human colonialism and want my money back.

    All they'd need to do is simply throw out casual references now and then, nothing that actually costs time, energy, or money. The way Starfleet was depicted wasn't really different from Enterprise.

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    As the main topic, I seem to recall Enterprise where Jolene Blalock fought a hoard of Klingons in a Seven Samurai-esque plot. She did notably well, they even gave the Vulcans a form of Aikido.
    In the end, you can have training centers all over the place, but you will have to have a central locus of comand where the head sits. That's what San Fransisco is. Not the only training site, or even the main one, but the one from which Star Fleet is commanded.
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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by hamlet View Post
    In the end, you can have training centers all over the place, but you will have to have a central locus of comand where the head sits. That's what San Fransisco is. Not the only training site, or even the main one, but the one from which Star Fleet is commanded.
    That can, and was explained in Enterprise -- Humanity represented a neutral power in the galaxy and thus became the peacemaker. In the sort of way I totally get why the U.N is based in New York. Things however, have been going on for some time now, as the Federation becomes a stable force the role of any one planet would be diminished.

    And yet, how many plots in the show and movies revolve around some plot to destroy the Earth? This very event actually happens at the end of Andromeda, and it's kind of anticlimactic. The whole plot of Voyager is about getting home to Earth. To some degree I think the Federation should be like the Culture, where geography (or whatever the space equivalent) is truly meaningless -- civilization is not a place, but a culmination of science, art, economics, laws, values, and history.

    It's, I don't know, unsophisticated and inadequately expresses the high-minded ideals its supposed to represent.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Kitten Champion View Post
    I can accept that on its face -- it was simply impractical from a cost standpoint.

    Still, I think there could have been a little more of a creative effort in making TNG/DS9/Voyager's Federation a less human-centric civilization. Erring more towards the Commonwealth from Andromeda, where Earth is one world among many.

    Why would a society of trillions of sentient life forms have just one centre for training its military officers? I'd have Star Fleet Academies galore, particularly on the older member worlds. I would have shipyards in numerous systems, and Star Fleet ships with name that are culturally relevant to non-humans. I'd have the bureaucracy running the federation expanded outside of Sol. If I were any other members of this Federation I'd cry human colonialism and want my money back.

    All they'd need to do is simply throw out casual references now and then, nothing that actually costs time, energy, or money. The way Starfleet was depicted wasn't really different from Enterprise.

    ______________________

    As the main topic, I seem to recall Enterprise where Jolene Blalock fought a hoard of Klingons in a Seven Samurai-esque plot. She did notably well, they even gave the Vulcans a form of Aikido.
    I think you're asking too much if you're asking for Starfleet to have a sensible rank structure or for the Academy to accurately reflect the training needs for a military organization. In the meantime, let us content ourselves to say that the reason Starfleet is dominated by humans is probably because a) most of these people we see during the TNG, DS9 and VOY series were trained during a period of long peace when the military aspects of Starfleet were, suffice to say, heavily de-emphasized, and b) humans got the most out of Starfleet in that incarnation of the organization. It's not exactly out of keeping with what we've seen of Vulcans or Tellurites or Andorians for them not to interest themselves greatly in being NASA with lasers.

    Trekverse humans, by contrast, tend to have the right mixture of curiosity and stubborn insistence on seeing the damn thing with their own eyeballs to fill out such an organization.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    It seems we push off all our negative characteristics on to rubber-headed aliens, so we can keep intellectual curiosity and romanticism to ourselves.

    I wasn't really looking for reasonable anything from Trek, I don't really care how future people are supposed to be trained or how the future government/military should really operate. They went out of their way to present an egalitarian Earth on paper just by diversifying the cast/extras an ounce and making fluff up when needed. I just thought it would have behooved them to adjust their perspectives even further into something more interstellar-y. Like the Commonwealth of Andromeda, but less militant. Barring that they should have just made the Federation small-ish and maintained a few recognizable aliens as allies like Babylon 5.

    Still, I guess people are more likely to accept science fiction when its wrapped in such comfortable trimmings -- and Trek is certainly going for the mainstream of mainstreams.

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    Default Re: Klingons vs. Vulcans

    Quote Originally Posted by Chen View Post
    That episode wasn't Polaski (I don't think her and Crusher were ever in the same episode). It was some random colleague of Crusher's who had come to the Enterprise and was using people to test her pet medical theories on.
    color me embarassed (oh wait, I just did)
    Even while typing that, I was wondering why Polaski was in the same ep as Crusher, since she was basically a replacement)

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