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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Hey, guys. I want to make a Cleric whose goal is to start his own church that is a thieves' guild.

    I'm planning on starting the game as a level 1 Cloistered Cleric, dabbling in a class that has trapfinding (likely Feat Rogue), then picking up Leadership and going into Divine Oracle.

    Have you any suggestions? Be they optimal or flavorful.

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    The Kobold domain grants you Trapfinding, as well as Disable Device and Search in-class.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Artificers get trapfinding and with it some really good other abilities including access to a lot of traditional rogue only skills. The other benefit of course is access to create magic items that can simulate other forms of magic including divinations.
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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    The Kobold domain grants you Trapfinding, as well as Disable Device and Search in-class.
    How would you explain a non-Kobold taking the Kobold domain? I would definitely have a hard time getting DM to okay me using it because of our campaign setting, I think.

    Quote Originally Posted by hoverfrog View Post
    Artificers get trapfinding and with it some really good other abilities including access to a lot of traditional rogue only skills. The other benefit of course is access to create magic items that can simulate other forms of magic including divinations.
    I'm looking into the Artificer right now. They are Intelligence-based, though, aren't they? I'm going to have trouble distributing points between Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma if I want to be competent at Cleric, Artificer, and Leadership. What can I do to help reduce the MAD?

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zovc View Post
    How would you explain a non-Kobold taking the Kobold domain? I would definitely have a hard time getting DM to okay me using it because of our campaign setting, I think.
    I don't have the time to check at the moment, but does anything actually say that racial domains are only available to members of that race? Why can't a cleric of the ideal of thievery venerate the skillful trap-handling of koboldkind? The domain doesn't even have anything koboldy about it, so if you're allowed to refluff, just change the name.
    Last edited by Flickerdart; 2012-11-12 at 10:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by A_Moon View Post
    How many times, when the Fighter says "I draw my sword", did you just want to smack that cheating-optimizer in the face and say "No! You don't draw your sword! You draw Orcus!". When the Cleric says "I run away from Orcus!": "No! You run into Orcus! Rogue tries to hide? He hides behind Orcus! The bard in a tavern on the other side the town tries to order a drink? How about a nice frothy mug of Orcus?

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Flickerdart View Post
    I don't have the time to check at the moment, but does anything actually say that racial domains are only available to members of that race? Why can't a cleric of the ideal of thievery venerate the skillful trap-handling of koboldkind? The domain doesn't even have anything koboldy about it, so if you're allowed to refluff, just change the name.
    I'm not 100%, but there is something in the PHB about Clerics of a racial god needing to be from that race. Are there any deities that have the kobold domain that aren't Kobold deities?

    Can you worship Kobolds as an ideal? Better yet, Sneaky Races as an ideal. Then you can get Trickery from gnomes as well.
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    i would have suggested kobold and magic domains (magic domain is the cleric's answer to UMD), but if you don't want to play a kobold and your DM doesn't allow cross-racial domanis, then 1 level of a trapfinding class won't hurt too bad.

    or, if you are starting at high enough levels, spend a couple of feats on the thieves gloves soulmeld and the hand chakra bind.

    or DMM persist a find traps spell.
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Well, how about a kobold cloistered cleric with Trickery and Kobold domains?
    Kobold is a decent race for this concept. You'll have a relatively good AC and a dex bonus to boot.

    That's what I would suggest. If it matters, trickery grants you disguise self, so you could come off as a goblin/halfling/gnome if you need to.
    Last edited by Seharvepernfan; 2012-11-12 at 11:52 AM.
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Factotum has Trapfinding. If you're human, take Able Learner at first, then all skills are class skills forever.
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Spam Wieldskill and Guidance of the Avatar. Succeed on every important skill check. Become the King Kong of skillmonkies.

    See if you can get Glibness from a domain.

    Say your Cleric worships the ideals of Thievery. Pick some good domains.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Spam Wieldskill and Guidance of the Avatar. Succeed on every important skill check. Become the King Kong of skillmonkies.

    See if you can get Glibness from a domain.
    Wieldskill is persistable. That takes care of the non-class skill problem. Glibness is available from the Commerce and Treachery domains.
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Seharvepernfan View Post
    Well, how about a kobold cloistered cleric with Trickery and Kobold domains?
    Kobold is a decent race for this concept. You'll have a relatively good AC and a dex bonus to boot.

    That's what I would suggest. If it matters, trickery grants you disguise self, so you could come off as a goblin/halfling/gnome if you need to.
    I'll consider this. I was originally thinking of playing as a kobold when my friend asked me if I would be interested in playing in a campaign with him. He just tried to discourage it by reminding me of how hard it is to get along with people.

    We are starting at level 1, so I'm considering a few approaches. The real dilemma is Feat Rogue at level 1 or Cloistered Cleric at level 1. My DM is opposed to the Factotum, and it's not worth fighting over.

    I don't quite know what I want to be doing between level 2 and Divine Oracle and Leadership, though. There's 3 or four levels in there that I have to be doing something.

    I had the idea to go Clositered Cleric 1/Feat Rogue 2/Human Paragon 3/Divine Oracle X, but I realized that would leave me with level 4 Cleric Spellcasting at level 7, after having level 1 casting for four levels. I'm not absolutely married to cleric spellcasting, I'm just wondering if being that far behind will cripple me in an un-optimized environemnt.

    Are there any Rogue/Cleric hybrid Prestige Classes or Feats? Is there any way to get more mileage out of my Cloistered Cleric's fluffy Lore without having to take more class featureless (aside from the main attraction, spellcasting, I know) Cloistered Cleric levels?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=292794

    There you go. You can get everything you want from Cloistered Cleric, and full spellcasting Cleric prestige classes.

    In other words, you don't have to multiclass away from Cloistered Cleric at all; you can just go for Prestige classes. Even then, you don't need to go for Prestige Classes if you don't want to. Cloistered Cleric 20 would be a fine Rogue, with the right choices.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-12 at 01:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zovc View Post

    Are there any Rogue/Cleric hybrid Prestige Classes or Feats? Is there any way to get more mileage out of my Cloistered Cleric's fluffy Lore without having to take more class featureless (aside from the main attraction, spellcasting, I know) Cloistered Cleric levels?
    There is Sacred Outlaw, but that's from a Dragon article. Stacks the levels for Turning and Sneak Attack.
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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Yea, swap lore for Knack, use it on Knowledge Devotion or whatever.

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    To go back to the kobold domain, I have been a gnome cleric that took the kobold domain because i was intensely studying my enemies, so I learned their tricks and whatnot. while my DM likened that to having a favored enemy, I countered with that kind of proving my point about how it can logically occur
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    Bugbear in the Playground
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    I don't really have any suggestions that aren't covered, but I just wanted to say that last post is awesome. I love the "Listen, this is why that doesn't make sense"/"That's exactly why it does make sense," counter.

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zovc View Post
    I don't quite know what I want to be doing between level 2 and Divine Oracle and Leadership, though. There's 3 or four levels in there that I have to be doing something.
    Buffing and summoning are always solid options for a cleric. On summoning though, it pays to stick to a neutral alignment, if at all possible.

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Being good aligned gets you the Sanctified spells for buffing, though...

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    http://www.myth-weavers.com/sheetvie...sheetid=292794

    There you go. You can get everything you want from Cloistered Cleric, and full spellcasting Cleric prestige classes.

    In other words, you don't have to multiclass away from Cloistered Cleric at all; you can just go for Prestige classes. Even then, you don't need to go for Prestige Classes if you don't want to. Cloistered Cleric 20 would be a fine Rogue, with the right choices.
    That is pretty close to what I'm looking for. Though Move Silently is not a class skill (but certainly is at a good enough modifier for level 1). More importantly, this character has 10 Charisma, which will make for not the best leadership score at level 6.

    The simplest solution is looking to be starting the game as a Feat Rogue inspired to do good at level 1, and going into Cloistered Cleric at level 2 or 3.

    I keep saying that I will go with Feat Rogue. I'm going out on a limb and assuming that two Fighter feats will benefit me more than one Sneak Attack die will. This assumption is made without even considering what feats I can take as a fighter.

    If I don't plan on dedicating too hard to Cloistered Cleric (which is kind of diverging from the original intent of this thread), I don't need more than like 12-to-14 Wisdom, which allows me to point buy (we are doing 36 point buy, by the way) more Charisma, Intelligence, Dexterity, or offset a small race's strength penalties.

    Gavinfoxx suggests Cloistered Cleric 20, but how would you build a roguish character who decides to start 'the church of robin hood'?

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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Well you don't have to use that exact stat array! Also, you can lead people without the Leadership feat. There are tons of ways. Here are two Leadership handbooks for ya:

    http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=8817.0
    http://brilliantgameologists.com/boa...p?topic=3065.0

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zrak View Post
    I don't really have any suggestions that aren't covered, but I just wanted to say that last post is awesome. I love the "Listen, this is why that doesn't make sense"/"That's exactly why it does make sense," counter.
    I am a lawyer in real life, I am supposed to be good at convincing people I am correct.

    anyway, if you dont want to go through too much cleric, you can always just PrC into temple raider of oldimmara. or since you want to start a church, maybe you could start these temple raiders and adapt it to your setting. This is DnD, it is almost sinful to do things in an orthodox fashion
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zovc View Post
    Gavinfoxx suggests Cloistered Cleric 20, but how would you build a roguish character who decides to start 'the church of robin hood'?
    Seconding Cleric20, with DMM: Persistent Spell. DMM will be used for skills more than direct combat buffs (although some combat buffs may be desirable), in keeping with our Roguish theme. Add fullcasting prestige classes to taste.

    Persist Wieldskill + Take 10 (or Take 20) = Good at all skills.
    -Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?

    Persisted Glibness + Persist Weildskill = +40 Bluff = Win
    -All war is deception.

    Persist Weildskill + Knowledge skills + Knowledge Devotion feat = Good at combat (plusses to hit/dmg), and you will know which DR your arrows need to bypass.
    -Know thy self, know thy enemy.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Bugbear in the Playground
     
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Persist Wieldskill + Take 10 (or Take 20) = Good at all skills.
    -Can you imagine what I would do if I could do all I can?

    Persisted Glibness + Persist Weildskill = +40 Bluff = Win
    -All war is deception.

    Persist Weildskill + Knowledge skills + Knowledge Devotion feat = Good at combat (plusses to hit/dmg), and you will know which DR your arrows need to bypass.
    -Know thy self, know thy enemy.
    I get the feeling my DM will be very salty if I used DMM Persist. So much so that I think it's best to not even ask. :/

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zovc View Post
    I get the feeling my DM will be very salty if I used DMM Persist. So much so that I think it's best to not even ask. :/
    Then use DMM Quicken. Also Wieldskill requires a feat to unlock, I believe. Initiate of Gond, I think.
    Last edited by Gavinfoxx; 2012-11-12 at 09:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    Then use DMM Quicken. Also Wieldskill requires a feat to unlock, I believe. Initiate of Gond, I think.
    DMM Quicken is a lot less potent than I feel like it should be. Obviously action economy is good, but from what I can tell, it only means so much with Cleric spells. Obviously, activating your buffs as late as you possibly can (to have them be relevant for as long as possible), like Divine Power right before an attack, is a good thing. But is that really worth four turn attempts? It's not making Divine Power last all day or anything. :P

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zovc View Post
    DMM Quicken is a lot less potent than I feel like it should be. Obviously action economy is good, but from what I can tell, it only means so much with Cleric spells. Obviously, activating your buffs as late as you possibly can (to have them be relevant for as long as possible), like Divine Power right before an attack, is a good thing. But is that really worth four turn attempts? It's not making Divine Power last all day or anything. :P
    I think you are.misunderstanding what dmm quicken is for, or the benefit you will get. It means you don't have to prebuff at all, and can just wade in and start hitting. Action economy is A Big Deal!

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    I think you are.misunderstanding what dmm quicken is for, or the benefit you will get. It means you don't have to prebuff at all, and can just wade in and start hitting. Action economy is A Big Deal!
    But most of the buffs here are skillmonkey buffs, and you usually don't have to worry about action economy out of combat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    But most of the buffs here are skillmonkey buffs, and you usually don't have to worry about action economy out of combat.
    That's what I was going for. DMM Persist only gets "broken" when you plunder your entire build for turn attempts, use them all on combat stuff like Divine Power/Righteous Might... and wind up about as good as a Fighter + Spells.

    You're essentially sacrificing a bunch of spells and feats to become a good skillmonkey, when you can already obsolete many of these skills with magic anyway. Nothing to get all uppity about. But it's more of a trust issue, which I understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Persist Wieldskill + Take 10 (or Take 20) = Good at all skills.
    That's a very limited benefit.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wieldskill
    The subject gains a +10 competence bonus on a skill check of your choice.
    No matter how long your make this spell last, it's still only good for a single skill check.

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