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  1. - Top - End - #31
    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    You can use Planar Touchstone: Catalogues of Enlightenment [Planar Handbook] feat to pick up Kobold-domain granted power without being a kobold or even needing the domain.
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  2. - Top - End - #32
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    I think you are.misunderstanding what dmm quicken is for, or the benefit you will get. It means you don't have to prebuff at all, and can just wade in and start hitting. Action economy is A Big Deal!
    That's almost exactly what I said in the post you quoted. I essentially said "I know that DMM Quicken is good, but in the case of buffs doesn't really compare to Persist." I even cited using buffs in combat to gain action economy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Urpriest View Post
    But most of the buffs here are skillmonkey buffs, and you usually don't have to worry about action economy out of combat.
    Another valid point against using DMM Quicken.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    That's what I was going for. DMM Persist only gets "broken" when you plunder your entire build for turn attempts, use them all on combat stuff like Divine Power/Righteous Might... and wind up about as good as a Fighter + Spells.

    You're essentially sacrificing a bunch of spells and feats to become a good skillmonkey, when you can already obsolete many of these skills with magic anyway. Nothing to get all uppity about. But it's more of a trust issue, which I understand.
    Could you give me a few examples of skillmonkey-enabling cleric spells you see me DMM persisting on a regular basis? I'm not trying to express cynicism or doubt here, I'm just wondering what exactly I would be doing with my cleric spells, since I've never tried being a cleric skillmonkey before.

    -

    I've looked at what I believe are all of my options for bonus feats as a Feat Rogue, and I'm wondering if I should just be a regular Rogue for my first level. I was hoping for a fighter feat that would be relevant, but I'm not really seeing anything other than maybe picking up proficiency with a cool weapon.

    And since I'll have Trapfinding and potentially Able Learner going into Cloistered Cleric, I technically have a lot more options when it comes to domains. What roguelike domains would you recommend that flavorfully suit and mechanically benefit a 'Priest of Robin Hood'?

  3. - Top - End - #33
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    Flumph

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zovc View Post
    Could you give me a few examples of skillmonkey-enabling cleric spells you see me DMM persisting on a regular basis? I'm not trying to express cynicism or doubt here, I'm just wondering what exactly I would be doing with my cleric spells, since I've never tried being a cleric skillmonkey before.
    I listed Wieldskill before, although (as Curmudgeon notes) its bizarre/unintuitive wording makes it highly undesirable for Persist, but still strong as a regular spells, as is Guidance of the Avatar. That was all I had in mind. Find Traps is pretty obvious (Trapfinding, plus bonuses to it) if you don't already have it, as are Silence (cast it on a stick which you keep in a line-of-effect-blocking container, like a Haversack or lead box, so you can effectively "turn the sound off" or "activate sonic cloaking" by retrieving it) and Invisibility (if you don't plan on attacking for a while). Detect Magic and other vision-enhancers are useful for general detection purposes (Detect Magic will ping for any magical traps, opponents' equipment/buffs, and magic loot you get within 60ft of. Very useful on a scout). Glibness is another option once you reach the appropriate level (and either have the appropriate domain or cast Domain Swap for it), so you can obliterate social encounters (provided you do the talking and use any degree of discretion or subtlety whatsoever).

    You can use all the spells which obviate skills (Knock comes to mind, I already mentioned Silence and Invisibility).

    It's basically using Cleric spells like Guidance of the Avatar and Wieldskill to receive large bonuses on skill checks, and take "utility" spells to overcome challenges. This almost-guide actually suggests Rogue1/Cloistered Cleric19 and Rogue2/Cloistered Cleric18 with Able Learner (Rogue can be replaced by Factotum for getting all skills ever in-class).
    Last edited by Slipperychicken; 2012-11-13 at 08:11 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

  4. - Top - End - #34
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Thanks a lot for the post, Slipperychicken. That guide was a nice, quick read. It pretty much sold me on going Human Rogue with Able Learner.

    All that's up in the air now is what second feat I take, if I go Feat Rogue and take a fighter feat, and the domains I choose when I get into Cleric.

  5. - Top - End - #35
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    If you can't think of anything better, Improved Initiative is always a good choice!
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  6. - Top - End - #36
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by juicycaboose View Post
    If you can't think of anything better, Improved Initiative Extra Turning is always a good choice!
    Fixed for DMM Cleric.
    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Tippy View Post
    By level 20 though, you aren't capturing a wizard. A character lives to level 20 by being the most ruthless, lucky, capable, and paranoid bastard around. A wizard is throwing around a 30+ Int score and has, entirely in character, planned contingencies for his contingencies. He may well be running around with flat out total immunity to harm, he does not walk outside without an entire bevy of defensive magics around him and enough magic items to buy himself a nation.

  7. - Top - End - #37
    Bugbear in the Playground
     
    Goblin

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Fixed for DMM Cleric.
    Not for a level 1 Rouge, though. ;)

  8. - Top - End - #38
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by juicycaboose View Post
    If you can't think of anything better, Improved Initiative is always a good choice is a sign that you shouldn't be playing a Rogue/Roguelike Cleric!
    Some feats, all of which are better choices than Improved Initiative:
    • Darkstalker (Lords of Madness, page 179) - to be generally unseen
    • Martial Study (Shadow Hand) (Tome of Battle, page 31) - needed for Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) (Tome of Battle, page 31) to gain sneak attack!
    • Combat Reflexes - because being unseen should net you lots of AoOs
    • Weapon Finesse - to let you use DEX for all your attacks

  9. - Top - End - #39
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Curmudgeon View Post
    Some feats, all of which are better choices than Improved Initiative:
    • Darkstalker (Lords of Madness, page 179) - to be generally unseen
    • Martial Study (Shadow Hand) (Tome of Battle, page 31) - needed for Martial Stance (Assassin's Stance) (Tome of Battle, page 31) to gain sneak attack!
    • Combat Reflexes - because being unseen should net you lots of AoOs
    • Weapon Finesse - to let you use DEX for all your attacks
    Combat Reflexes is the only one of those that the character could take with Feat Rogue 1, and it's not going to be useful for a long time (not until the character has enough Hide/magical support to allow for hiding within striking distance of someone). At first level Improved Initiative is much more useful.
    Lord Raziere herd I like Blasphemy, so Urpriest Exalted as a Malefactor

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  10. - Top - End - #40
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    I'd consider taking level 1 as Factotum with Able Learner... it's just so nice to have all skills as class skills forever, you know?

  11. - Top - End - #41
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Forget the Rogue dip, get one Spellthief level instead. With that you'll be able to use Wands of any Wizard spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation.

    I still think you're better off with 20/20 casting, so Cloistered Cleric (+ PrCs) 20 is the way to go. Get a few wands of Guidance of the Avatar, but prepare it as many times as possible as 2nd level wands are 90 gp per charge. Later on you can get some 2nd level Pearls of Power and cast Triadspell on Guidance of the Avatar. After you've cast it three times, you can recover it with a pearl "just as if it had not been cast" so it can be cast three more times each time it's recovered.

  12. - Top - End - #42
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    Goblin

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Gavinfoxx View Post
    I'd consider taking level 1 as Factotum with Able Learner... it's just so nice to have all skills as class skills forever, you know?
    Would if I could, but DM is utterly against the Factotum class.

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Forget the Rogue dip, get one Spellthief level instead. With that you'll be able to use Wands of any Wizard spells from the schools of abjuration, divination, enchantment, illusion, and transmutation.

    I still think you're better off with 20/20 casting, so Cloistered Cleric (+ PrCs) 20 is the way to go. Get a few wands of Guidance of the Avatar, but prepare it as many times as possible as 2nd level wands are 90 gp per charge. Later on you can get some 2nd level Pearls of Power and cast Triadspell on Guidance of the Avatar. After you've cast it three times, you can recover it with a pearl "just as if it had not been cast" so it can be cast three more times each time it's recovered.
    Being a magically apt thief doesn't quite fit the fluff I was hashing out, and I don't really want to sacrifice it for crunch. I will not dispute that I'm better off going Cloistered Cleric + Prestige Classes all the way, but I am sort of married to the approach I'm taking. Rogue 1 into Cloistered Cleric does have mechanical advantages over Cloistered Cleric all the way, too.

    So, a more pressing issue than what feat I take in addition to able learner cropped up.

    How do I distribute my attribute points with 36 point buy? I've got MAD, and my Wisdom does almost nothing for me as a level 1 Rouge. However, my Wisdom needs to be high enough to enable me to cast cleric spells as I get them. I'm pretty sure 15 is the lowest I can go if I want to be able to cast 9th level spells by the time I get access to them... Then I want a high Charisma score for when I get Leadership, which can do work for me in social situations, but doesn't do much to keep me alive anywhere else. Same goes for Intelligence, which I also want for Skillmonkeying.

  13. - Top - End - #43
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    Urpriest's Avatar

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Wis is still kind of nice as a level 1 Rogue, for spotting ambushes and the like.
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  14. - Top - End - #44
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Rogue 3/ Cloistered Cleric 3/ Divine Trickster 10/ X Full Casting 4 (Divine Oracle, Contemplative, Paragnostic Apostle, more Cleric especially with the feat Sacred Outlaw)

  15. - Top - End - #45
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Slipperychicken View Post
    Fixed for DMM Cleric.
    Kinda hard to get extra turning as a fighter bonus feat though
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  16. - Top - End - #46
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Quote Originally Posted by Zovc View Post
    How do I distribute my attribute points with 36 point buy? I've got MAD ...
    That's an easy answer: put 14 in all 6 stats. Anything else is going to be less efficient. 14 is adequate for WIS until you get to level 5 spells (9th level if full Cleric, or later with multiclassing), and you'll have had 2 stat increments (levels 4 & 8) by then. With Rogue 1/Cleric X you're still good through level 17 using nothing but those free stat increments every 4 levels. Certainly by then you'll have had plenty of opportunity to save for a Tome of Understanding to boost your Wisdom.

  17. - Top - End - #47
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    I might be mistaken, but how come no-one has mentioned the spell Divine Insight (SpC, p70, lvl 2) for a skill-monkey Cloistered Cleric?

    5+Caster Level to any one skill check, and it lasts for 1 Hour/level. (So you can pretty much cast it while you brush your teeth)

    It's an Insight Bonus, so it stacks with the Competence Bonus of Guidance of the Avatar

    However, when your 3rd level Cleric starts rocking Skill Checks of 1D20 + 35 + any other bonuses you might find, you might get books thrown at you.

    1 level of Rogue also gives you UMD as a Class Skill, which is another very good reason to dip Rogue, and combined with skill boosts like the ones above, you will have very little problem using UMD to great effect.
    Last edited by Thespianus; 2012-11-15 at 01:25 AM.

  18. - Top - End - #48
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    Default Re: Cloistered Cleric as Rogue as can be

    Regarding MAD: Is there a reason Archivist (HoH) hasn't been mentioned? That would make cleric casting Int-dependent. Or, Favored Soul uses Cha, doesn't it?

    PrC: There are a a few rogue-cleric choices. Check out Complete Adventure, Champion, & Divine, or [LINK]http://www.minmaxboards.com/index.php?topic=1344.0[/LINK]. Most involve loss of spellcasting, anywhere from 8/10 to 5/10 lvls.

    Kobold Domain: I would classify taking this domain without being a kobold (or growing up with kobolds) as being incredibly cheesy.

    P.S.: I've always liked the 'Priest of Stealth' idea, and hated that it couldn't be done in AD&D.
    "Rest in reason; move in passion." - Kahlil Gibram

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