League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[toasty]

IEM Singapore is the saddest League LAN ever. Five teams announce they can't participate (it manages to be simultaneously with Dreamhack Winter, OLYMPUS Champions' Winter AND Tencent Games Grand Finals), now they're scrapping the bottom of the barrel with some local teams-4-fun that have never even played tournament qualifiers.

Hey! Dunno about you BUT I enjoyed watching Arm get stomped.

[Eldariel]

Armageddon isn't a good team even on Singaporean level, so their inclusion was pretty damn silly. Apparently some friend of the organizer wanted them in when they had open slots and they were sorta just crammed in without considering the other local options.

[Eiko]

In other news, eve still silly.

I'm becoming more and more convinced of this fact each game I play her, ludicrous kills and damage, few deaths, AoE ult super nuke. Good ganking, good laning, good sustain, good teamfighting. Weren't champions supposed to have downsides?

[Nadevoc]

In other news, eve still silly.

I'm becoming more and more convinced of this fact each game I play her, ludicrous kills and damage, few deaths, AoE ult super nuke. Good ganking, good laning, good sustain, good teamfighting. Weren't champions supposed to have downsides?

Eve's downside:

-Very limited range outside her ultimate
-No hard CC, and her only soft CC is on her ultimate
-Her survivability is tied to hitting multiple targets with her ultimate (if she doesn't get a good shield for a teamfight, she's quite squishy, and short-ranged)
-Weak early game. In lane she's a squishier melee whose only ranged farming tool (Q) can be a bit tricky to use for last hitting at times and isn't very long ranged. In the jungle her first clear is pretty weak, from my experience.


She can definitely be a strong champion, but not without downsides :-P

[McDouggal]

I woke up with this thought going through my head: "Jungle Garen."

After some thought, I realized that this wouldn't be a BAD jungler; his passive only turns off when hit by a champ or turret, he gets a boost of armor when he uses his W, his Q allows for quick jungle ganks, and his E should give him fantastic clear times once he reaches max CDR.

And he's manaless. One less stat to worry about.

Thoughts?

[Nadevoc]

I woke up with this thought going through my head: "Jungle Garen."

After some thought, I realized that this wouldn't be a BAD jungler; his passive only turns off when hit by a champ or turret, he gets a boost of armor when he uses his W, his Q allows for quick jungle ganks, and his E should give him fantastic clear times once he reaches max CDR.

And he's manaless. One less stat to worry about.

Thoughts?

I believe neutral creeps DO put his passive on CD, based on memory. The wording says damage 'other than minions', and I'm pretty sure abilities say 'minions and monsters' if it's also referring to jungle creeps. His E also does reduced damage to jungle creeps, which reduces his speed. Overall, I think his speed and sustain just aren't that great, and his ganks are meh. He's got a move speed boost to close into a silence, but a LOT of champs will just blink/dash away and be under tower before he can do much. His damage is more sustained than burst except for his ultimate, which means champs can't stick around in lane low health too safely, but other than that not that scary gank-wise.

[MCerberus]

Those times when you just feel like a badass:

Was playing Darius, had Mercs/HoG/Phage/Frozen Heart/Warden's. Nothing was happening, so I decided to just go knock down the top tower. Obviously I was spotting moving towards it, so the enemy Xin tried to stop me... only he hasn't been able to touch me since the Frozen Heart.

I'm at 90% health when the tower falls. He realizes I have red buff and flashes away. That's when I see the enemy Vayne ult tumble stealth at me. I apprehend, and they have to flash away... then I just calmly walk towards mid where the rest of the team was pushing 4v3.

[Reynard]

I woke up with this thought going through my head: "Jungle Garen."

After some thought, I realized that this wouldn't be a BAD jungler; his passive only turns off when hit by a champ or turret, he gets a boost of armor when he uses his W, his Q allows for quick jungle ganks, and his E should give him fantastic clear times once he reaches max CDR.

And he's manaless. One less stat to worry about.

Thoughts?

Having tried it:
> Jungle monsters do stop his passive.
> Your E does damage them fairly quickly once you get it to rank 2 or 3... but you want CDR AND crit chance to actually maintain a remotely decent clear time.
> Your Q ganks are like being Udyr, but worse in nearly every way. Shyvana/Pre-6Warwick are two of the very few junglers who have worse CC in ganks then Garen.

[ex cathedra]

Shyvana actually has better ganks considering that she can take smite/exhaust with no real downside and Garen generally needs flash to gapclose lategame.

Why does everyone feel so bad about Curse NA? They'll end up in the losers bracket, along with HALF the starting teams.

Like... I dunno, so many other teams out there aren't gonna do any good. Do people think Fear and Dynamic are gonna do good?

What's wrong with FeaR's bracket? Neither CLG is convincingly a tier-one team, whereas two of the strongest teams in the world (despite m5's poor recent showings) are in Group D.

Group A is pretty rough, yeah, but I'm not convinced that TD are much worse off than ForellenLord's team.

[McDouggal]

Having tried it:
> Jungle monsters do stop his passive.
> Your E does damage them fairly quickly once you get it to rank 2 or 3... but you want CDR AND crit chance to actually maintain a remotely decent clear time.
> Your Q ganks are like being Udyr, but worse in nearly every way. Shyvana/Pre-6Warwick are two of the very few junglers who have worse CC in ganks then Garen.

Tl;dr version: It's unviable.

I really need to think harder before I stupid.

[PersonMan]

I'd say Garen's best ganks would be counterganks. Rushing out of a bush to silence someone and then spinning would really ruin some people's day.

[Eldariel]

Team Acer decided it's not worth banning Anivia vs. Froggen. It was hilarious.

[Forrestfire]

Team Acer decided it's not worth banning Anivia vs. Froggen. It was hilarious.

Is there a video of that game? I really want to see this XD

[Dada]

Those walls man. So many flashes were forced.

Also, McDougal, don't be too hard on yourself. Some of the main points of your initial idea were good, and jungle Garen might have been a lot more viable if the interactions of his passive and his spin worked as expected with the jungle mobs. Only suggestion from me would be to go try it out in a custom game. Measure his clear time against some other junglers, take not of the tricky interactions. If you feel comfortable, take it into some normal games and see how it goes. That is the best way to judge ideas.

[Eldariel]

Is there a video of that game? I really want to see this XD

I doubt they're up yet given the match ended about 20 minutes ago but I'm certain the VODs will be up by tomorrow. They'll probably be posted on Reddit, though if not there's always Google. Stream cache might also have them at DreamhackLoL but I haven't checked.

[Lix Lorn]

So it's 6300 time.

Either:

Jayce, the OP of Tomorrow
Rengar, the manbearlion
Riven, the spam-master

Riven, because Jayce and Rengar are evil.

[Tychris1]

Riven, because Jayce and Rengar are evil.

How so? Rengar seems pretty Chaotic Neutral to me.

I vote Rengar.

[Eldariel]

And now having to watch a game of second rate Anivia-play...ugh. Well, to be fair, both teams are wholly second-rate, but still.

[PersonMan]

Riven, because Jayce and Rengar are evil.

+1. In part.

Riven is awesome, has awesome skins and jumps around all over the place.

Rengar is fun, too, though. Dunno about Jayce, apart from the fact that I lost interest in him during his free week and now that I can't play him want to do so...

[Psyborg]

I doubt they're up yet given the match ended about 20 minutes ago but I'm certain the VODs will be up by tomorrow. They'll probably be posted on Reddit, though if not there's always Google. Stream cache might also have them at DreamhackLoL but I haven't checked.

CLG.EU vs Acer, with Froggen on Anivia, can be found here with draft starting just before 2:00:00.

[Godskook]

Tl;dr version: It's unviable.

I really need to think harder before I stupid.

Eh, he's a tier 3 jungler who's almost entirely mirrored by a high tier 2 jungler(Darius). That said, if you really like him as a champion, he's got at least a few things going for him:

1.His clear times are, in S2, decently fast early game(when that matters). And while this doesn't always matter at higher levels of play, I find that clear speed matters more than many other factors early on in one's jungle career(in the pre-30s or before about 1200-1300 Elo).

2.While his sustain is awful, his passive and W help make up for that a lot, by letting him still be tanky enough to gank.

He's not wholly unviable, and with a cloth+5 start, you can actually clear your jungle without team help, unlike say....Blitzcrank, who is basically worthless in the jungle right now(he just transitions hard enough that you can still make it work, not that I'd recommend it).

[9mm]

Team Acer decided it's not worth banning Anivia vs. Froggen. It was hilarious.

While funny, how much more of no AP anivia chunking people will it take before Riot realizes the bird is still horrendously OP?

[Psyborg]

While funny, how much more of no AP anivia chunking people will it take before Riot realizes the bird is still horrendously OP?

She's no more OP than anyone else with excellent base damage and/or utility who benefits from tankiness, CDR, and mana regen to get more spells off. Granted, not many mages fit that archetype.

But Anivia has a fairly specific purpose in team comps: stall or siege. She has the best wave-clear in the game, freedom to counterbuild due to good base damages and good AP ratios allowing tankiness and AP to be equally valuable on her, and solid utility. She's not the best mage for assassinating people, or killing her lane opponent instantly at 6, or for ultralategame DPS, or for all-in hard initiations. Anivia is at her best at a tower- whether hers or her opponent's. And she's the sort of champion that you build a team around- either a poke/heal team to siege enemy towers, or a lategame hypercarry comp relying on Anivia's stall potential to ensure you actually get to lategame. And she's one of the three most blue-dependent champions in the entire game (along with Kassadin and Swain); buff control is critical if you have an Anivia on your team.

Is she incredibly strong within her niche? Yes. Is she stronger at stall/seige than Malph/Ori/Lulu are at initiating, or Vayne is at killing bruisers, or Ez/Sona is at poking down a lane opponent, or Yorick is at destroying top lanes, or Nidalee is at escaping?

I'm not convinced she is. I think that CLG.EU has been fortunate that Froggen is so ridiculously talented with a champion who fits their team's cautious, methodical style so perfectly. Compare this to Doublelift, who is equally talented with Vayne, but Vayne doesn't fit in the sort of games that CLG.NA likes to run most of the time.

When we see a FroggeNivia, we're seeing the champion played at the absolute best she can be, in a team of champions that complement her and players whose mindsets work perfectly with her abilities. Of course she's going to be almost unbeatable!

Now, if she does prove "unbeatable" rather than "really strong" when she's exactly in her niche, then there's a problem. On the other hand, I have no difficulty believing that, no matter how balanced the champion is in general, you're still always going to ban Anivia vs Froggen, Nidalee vs. HSGG, Vayne vs. Doublelift, Draven vs. aphromoo, Poppy vs. Zekent/SpamHappy, etc. When someone learns a champion so thoroughly that their names becomes virtually synonymous, I think it's not out of line to blame the player rather than the champion for their permaban status.

[ex cathedra]

She's no more OP than anyone else with excellent base damage and/or utility who benefits from tankiness, CDR, and mana regen to get more spells off. Granted, not many mages fit that archetype.

But Anivia has a fairly specific purpose in team comps: stall or siege. She has the best wave-clear in the game, freedom to counterbuild due to good base damages and good AP ratios allowing tankiness and AP to be equally valuable on her, and solid utility. She's not the best mage for assassinating people, or killing her lane opponent instantly at 6, or for ultralategame DPS, or for all-in hard initiations. Anivia is at her best at a tower- whether hers or her opponent's. And she's the sort of champion that you build a team around- either a poke/heal team to siege enemy towers, or a lategame hypercarry comp relying on Anivia's stall potential to ensure you actually get to lategame. And she's one of the three most blue-dependent champions in the entire game (along with Kassadin and Swain); buff control is critical if you have an Anivia on your team.

Is she incredibly strong within her niche? Yes. Is she stronger at stall/seige than Malph/Ori/Lulu are at initiating, or Vayne is at killing bruisers, or Ez/Sona is at poking down a lane opponent, or Yorick is at destroying top lanes, or Nidalee is at escaping?

I think that videos like this really demonstrate that does much more than your "she's niche" argument suggests.

I'm also pretty sure that anyone else with "excellent and utility" would be overpowered if they had as much base damage and utility as Anivia has. It's not just that, though. She has excellent base damage, ludicrous utility, and she still top-tier scaling.

I believe that Riot's take on the matter is (or once was) that champions shouldn't be overpowered in the hands of skilled players, even if they're balanced otherwise. I feel like that was one of their justifications for nerfing release Orianna.

The problem is that while Anivia does excel at stalling and sieging and building tanky and providing utility she's still good at everything that other mages do. She has normal mage ratios and above-average base damages in addition to all of the ridiculous **** she gets from AoE attack speed slows/movespeed slows/stuns, free GA passive, and walls.

It's like Ezreal being an overpowered duelist even though he's intended to poke.

They just need to lower her damage because it's ****ing stupidly high. There should be some sort of disadvantage for building nothing but HP and mana on a champion that's meant to be AP scaling.

Anivia REQ assuming only 2 seconds on R: 1030 + 2.5AP damage.
Brand EQWR: 1119 + 2.45 AP, or 1469 + 2.95 if you luck out and hit the same target twice.

In exchange for not having an AoE stun, an AoE slow, an AoE attack speed debuff, or an entire other skill slot Brand gets to do less than 9% more damage than Anivia on his combo.

How ****ed up is that? Champions with 3 offensive skills simply shouldn't have as much damage as champions with 4 offensive skills. It's bad design and it makes champions like Ori and Anivia overpowered.

[MCerberus]

If Anivia is OP, why does her winrate pretty consistently float just below 50%? Q stun and damage chunking relies on doubling damage with setup, and let's not forget how slow that ice ball is. She has pretty much no mobility, glaring weakness to assassins, a bad AA animation to go with her horrendous early-lane, and is terribly terribly squishy early.

Regarding that video, you know what other mages can pick off a champion by blindsiding them with a flash, putting a full burst on them, then getting backup from a global damage ult? Most of them.

[9mm]

If Anivia is OP, why does her winrate pretty consistently float just below 50%? Q stun and damage chunking relies on doubling damage with setup, and let's not forget how slow that ice ball is. She has pretty much no mobility, glaring weakness to assassins, a bad AA animation to go with her horrendous early-lane, and is terribly terribly squishy early.

Regarding that video, you know what other mages can pick off a champion by blindsiding them with a flash, putting a full burst on them, then getting backup from a global damage ult? Most of them.

Winrate does not equal balance, infact it never ever has, to the point Riot says not to bring it up. Don't get me wrong, most people can't do what Froggen can do with the bird; but that is not proof of balance, it's proof of what bird can do.

Terrible early game? so bird farms under tower till level 6 then auto wins her lane. Double damage hard to set up? Hardly, E then R mid flight, garenteed double proc. Oh and don't forget now that you've slowed them it's even easier to double proc the stun! Plus Wall! Anivia is, was, and probably always will be amazing with that kit. Anivia can burst people with just a warmogs that other mages need a derpcap to do. That, to put it mildly, is a problem.

[MCerberus]

Winrate does not equal balance, infact it never ever has, to the point Riot says not to bring it up. Don't get me wrong, most people can't do what Froggen can do with the bird; but that is not proof of balance, it's proof of what bird can do.

Terrible early game? so bird farms under tower till level 6 then auto wins her lane. Double damage hard to set up? Hardly, E then R mid flight, garenteed double proc. Oh and don't forget now that you've slowed them it's even easier to double proc the stun! Plus Wall! Anivia is, was, and probably always will be amazing with that kit. Anivia can burst people with just a warmogs that other mages need a derpcap to do. That, to put it mildly, is a problem.

The question is if outliers should be calculated into the mean or not. It's a double-edged sword in this case. Below-average Anivia play means you're even more likely to get stomped into paste than other mages.

Not standing in the candy puddle would happen to be the whole 'how you don't lose teamfights' when Anivia is involved. Her defense spells are also her offense and force multiplier. It's counterable... Anivia gets really really awkward when you move away from a Glacial Storm choke point and don't stack up. You wouldn't fight a team with Karthus in it in the jungle would you?

And I don't think the numbers back you up that bruiser-Anivia outdamages glass cannon bursters except in long fights where the extra durability comes in.

[toasty]

If Anivia is OP, why does her winrate pretty consistently float just below 50%?

Winrate in solo queue means absolutely nothing. Actually, it should be completely ignored. What the half-sentient beings of solo queue pull off means nothing to the divine beings of Competitive play. Not only that, but Anivia is a champion with a known high skill floor. Even if she was good (which is the argument we are making) its likely she could be OP and still have a low win-rate. What is the important is once the hero has been mastered (because regardless of how hard a champion is to play, they will eventually be mastered by some sort of crazy person) and then that person will prove the champion is OP. This is EXACTLY what has happened with Anivia.

Everyone knew Anivia was good starting in 2010. But no one played her, because she was "too hard." Then Froggen arrived having mastered Anivia. Now players like Rapidstar, Scarra, Link, and Jiji are all practicing their Anivia. Even Nyjacky and Regi have been seen playing them. Why? Because they are overpowered.

Q stun and damage chunking relies on doubling damage with setup, and let's not forget how slow that ice ball is. She has pretty much no mobility, glaring weakness to assassins, a bad AA animation to go with her horrendous early-lane, and is terribly terribly squishy early.

I don't care. Do it 10000 times you'll master it. Skill Floor means nothing. Once you've gotten there, its done, and you are king, and the only thing people can say is "that champion is op."

Furthermore: Anivia, if played correctly, is a very safe mid-laner. She is not a good roamer, and her AA is terrible, but she is pretty safe because of her passive. If you die mid-lane as Anivia its either because A) the jungle camped the **** out of you B) you suck C) everyone on your team sucks. Stop sucking and start winning.

I've never played a game of Anivia, nor do I care too, but arguments regarding "its really hard to pull off" are bad once its become apparent that at least one person is able to constinetly pull it off.

Regarding that video, you know what other mages can pick off a champion by blindsiding them with a flash, putting a full burst on them, then getting backup from a global damage ult? Most of them.

Actually, not a lot. Go through the list and figure out which champions are making good use of their kits by doing what froggen did? Furthermore, what heroes can do it while having Froggen's exact build? You'd be surprised I think.

Anivia, when perfectly played as Froggen does, provides zone control, AoE damage, amazing utility and very strong CC. Most mages provide 1 of those (and practically none have the zone control of Anivia).

[MCerberus]

Without going into individual quote responses because doing so is a pet peeve, but let's look at some other mids.

Ori, Gragas, TF, Ryze, Ahri, Kat, Karthus, Eve, and Morg have seen some decent play since I started following. Ahri and Eve were hit with some nerfs for being OP, but largely these guys have just been good. Now Anivia is getting more attention, and always as a player specialty as opposed to general pick. We're not talking old DFG-level good on Anivia, we're just seeing 'oh wow she's actually good'.

And Anivia can't put down the instant hand-of-god burst as Lux does with Lux's build. So what? It's apples to oranges.

But seriously, forced movement, silence or stun (turns off ult zone) and dodge Q and the bird loses a ton of potency. Or you can just run Ori or an assassin mid.

[toasty]

But seriously, forced movement, silence or stun (turns off ult zone) and dodge Q and the bird loses a ton of potency. Or you can just run Ori or an assassin mid.

Forced movement... silence or stun... and dodge her skill shots.

How do you beat Caitlyn?
Forced movement
Stun
Dodge her Skill Shots (less important, but still there)

How do you beat ryze?
Forced Movement
Silence or Stun
Doge his ... oh nvm... but yeah

How do you beat Kass?
Forced Movement
Silence AND Stun (because I hate kass )
Dodge his... R? I dunno, doesn't really have "skill shots"

Like I'm just saying... Silencing destroys any hero who relies on constantly spamming or channeling certain spells: Karthus and Vlad come to mind. CC is good against all heroes, not Anivia specifically. She doesn't have a passive that makes CC MORE effective against her. Its only arguably "more" effective because she has no "escapes" which is true, because in teamfight egg isn't necessarily the best thing in the world. It is basically a free GA though... so there is that.

Dodging her Q does sound important, since the basis of her entire combo kinda is based on it. But to say its as simple as "dodging" her skill shots isn't entirely true. Anivia is the queen of Forced Movement, and with a good R+Wall she can force you to flash or get stunned and take tons of damage.

Finally: It is VERY important to be able to compare heroes to other heroes, using even similar builds. While yes, many heroes use different builds and have different playstyles, there are some heroes which preform similar roles. Both Lux and Anivia are traditionally AP middle heroes, neither of them are very good at Top/Jungle and their support isn't the greatest (apparently Lux support is viable. Anivia support might be fun). When it becomes apparent Anivia can build a warmogs and still outburst a burst mage built to be a burst mage, then I would argue Anivia's numbers should be looked at.