League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold

[McDouggal]

Ok, went to buy Shen, realized I was only 250-odd IP away from a 6300. Played a few, bought Lee Sin.

I love the champ. But what the heck is a good jungle path with him? I'm *thinking* that Redbuff-wraiths-gank mid-wolves-donate blue-gank top-recall is the way to go, but I've had a jungler that doesn't want Blue right at the start.

[ChaosOS]

Riot is actually about to make a lot of stats available with the incoming release of their API.

[toasty]

Of course. We've discussed this. She's overpowered :p

Anyways, Fnatic 3-0'd their group and 2-0'd their semis. :D
I'm so proud. It'd be solid if they took first overall, and they're well on their way towards it.

Ah yeah CLG.EU v Fnatic finals. Fnatic won Dreamhack in 2010, CLG in 2012 (was there even League at Dreamhack in 2011? Don't believe so).

[ChaosOS]

Dem froggen lazors. So much snipage. Lux OP, amirite?

[Eldariel]

Ah yeah CLG.EU v Fnatic finals. Fnatic won Dreamhack in 2010, CLG in 2012 (was there even League at Dreamhack in 2011? Don't believe so).

Fnatic won in 2011, there was none on 2010. The first and the only big tourney of 2010 was the WCG (and indeed, the first big LoL tourney, period).

[toasty]

Fnatic won in 2011, there was none on 2010. The first and the only big tourney of 2010 was the WCG (and indeed, the first big LoL tourney, period).

>_> I got my dates messed up. Makes sense actually, there was a LoL LAN at Dreamhack Summer, but none at Dreamhack Winter 2011.

[Xiander]

Okay, i started playing recently. I am closing in on level 12 and that delicious flash spell.

And i find myself very confused about how to itemize. I have been looking at some guides, and they do help me build for the champions they concern.
I still feel i lack an intuition about what to buy and when, though.

Can anyone give me some general tips about itemization?

I get that AD champs wants attack damage, but why should i buy one over sized sword over another?

If It matters I tend towards playing AP champions. I already have Annie. I almost have gold to buy Lulu, and after that i will save for Cho'gath.


Help please

[toasty]

There are a few different "classes" in League that will help guide you towards Itemization, however in general, itemization in League is something that is rather complex, because there are quite a few different stats you can decide to focus, even amongst specific classes.

Currently, the most straightforward class is AD Carry. These are Ranged heroes who generally duo lane bottom with a support, though many are good at soloing. For these guys you generally start Boots 3, get 1-2 Doran's Blade, and then get a Vamp Scepter and Attack Speed Boots and build into Infinity Edge. After that you certainly get a Phantom Dancer, which can be followed either by a Guardian Angel to live longer or a Last Whisper to kill things better.

Mages are also very straightforward, but there are basically three openings, each dependent on your hero. In general, starting boots+3 pot is strong, almost mandatory. After that you can opt for 1-2 Doran's Rings on most mages. Sorc shoes are the most straightfoward boots to build. You should Mana Intensive, Sustained damagers, such as Orianna, Anivia, and Karthus like to get CDR and Mana, so items like Chalice of Harmony are great. Everyone generally likes Deathcap so that's a good 2nd item. Pretty much every mage likes to rush deathcap, just because its such a huge damage spike if you can get one before 20 minutes. Deathcap+Void Staff is the ultimate damage build for mages, and interestingly, Blue Buff+Blue Elixir gives you 30% CDR, and you can often pick up some CDR through Runes and Masters to get to the CDR Cap.

However, you could also go for some other interesting builds like a Hourglass Rush, which is really good on initiating Mages, like Morgana and Kennen. You could go for flat spell pen which is really strong early-mid game. This is good on snowbally assassins or heroes with generally strong base stats like Vlad. Flat Spell Pen generally means Sorc Shoes, Haunting Guise and Abyssal Scepter.

Everything else is a lot more complicated. Bruisers are really messy in terms of itemization theory-crafting, and Junglers or supports are generally pretty starved item wise, beyond that, most Junglers are Tanks or Bruisers anyways, so they itemize like that. Supports get Wards, Gold/10s and whatever they can manage, usually looking for auras or team support items like Shurelias. I suggest using lolpro.com or solomid.net and browsing their guides for different heroes. Lolpro has real quality guides and Solomid.net used to, but I haven't checked them out recently, to be honest.

[ChaosOS]

I'll also throw out there that some of the itemization is going to change in the next patch, but the recommended items are a ton better so it's going to be more straightforward.

[toasty]

I'll also throw out there that some of the itemization is going to change in the next patch, but the recommended items are a ton better so it's going to be more straightforward.

This is true. And indeed, if you're a new player at this point... its probably just best to mess around and get a feel for the game and discuss item builds with the rest of us 1-2 weeks after patch.

Having said that... its probably likely that a lot of itemization won't change. We'll see change, but I don't know if it will be as big as Riot is hyping. Its an expansion pack, not a sequel.

[ex cathedra]

Bruiser itemization is going to be cray-cray, yo, as will support itemization I suspect. AP will expand a little bit and AD probably... won't.

[toasty]

Bruiser itemization is going to be cray-cray, yo, as will support itemization I suspect. AP will expand a little bit and AD probably... won't.

To be fair, its already kinda complicated (Bruiser itemization) its just gonna get MORE complicated.

[toasty]

I really have no idea what CLG.EU was thinking that last game. Its exciting to see Fnatic and winning LANs, even if it is only in EU with only CLG as their real competition (well, I suppose Crs.EU SHOULD have been competative, but they weren't), I'm hopeful that we will continue to see improvement out of Soaz, because if that's the case this is a really solid lineup.

I also find it funny how Fnatic is really just the best players of Fnatic/aAa+Nrated (who played with aAa V2). I also find it humorous that Soaz is now playing professionally after refusing to join SK because he wanted to commit to his studies.

[ex cathedra]

Fnatic is da best, obviously.

[tyckspoon]

I love the champ. But what the heck is a good jungle path with him? I'm *thinking* that Redbuff-wraiths-gank mid-wolves-donate blue-gank top-recall is the way to go, but I've had a jungler that doesn't want Blue right at the start.

Wraiths-Redbuff-check mid/bot for gank opportunity would be my start; with some team aid or a good speed-clearer you can do the camp with plenty of time to get to the Red camp, and it leaves you in a better position to go to Bot if that's the better gank while not being that much farther away from Mid (on the other hand, it's a bit awkward if you decide you don't have a good gank and just want to go into the other half of the jungle and farm more, because the wraith camp probably won't be back up just yet and it's largely not worth the time and HP spent on doing double Golems until you can beat them down easily.)

Golems-Redbuff-gank-or-more-farm could be feasible too, especially since the very first part of your path is the only time you can probably count on getting help with the golems (as mentioned before, after this you will probably ignore them/let your laners pick them up on the way out of/back to lane.) That'll put you in the same central ganking Mid or Bot location and leave an obvious way to move on to if you don't see a gank happening; you can just hit Wraiths and Wolves on your way to donating that Blue.

[sonofzeal]

Okay, i started playing recently. I am closing in on level 12 and that delicious flash spell.

And i find myself very confused about how to itemize. I have been looking at some guides, and they do help me build for the champions they concern.
I still feel i lack an intuition about what to buy and when, though.

Can anyone give me some general tips about itemization?

I get that AD champs wants attack damage, but why should i buy one over sized sword over another?

If It matters I tend towards playing AP champions. I already have Annie. I almost have gold to buy Lulu, and after that i will save for Cho'gath.


Help please

Hey there!

I'm still working my way up too (lvl 23), and.... honestly, I find people tend to exaggerate the differences. There's a lot of variation out there, different build orders giving strengths in different areas, and even some of the more unusual ones can be effective precisely because they're unexpected. That said, there's certainly builds that are vastly better than others.

As a general rule of thumb, look for special synergies. Champions that have an attack speed boost do better with attack damage items, and vice versa. Health (including health from shields) has a similar relationship with armor/MR. Champions who have low cooldowns and expect to be in Auto-Attack range like Sheen (and Trinity Force / Lich Bane) more than champions who just have one or the other.

In particular, look for unusual combinations. I use this searchable database regularly. For example, Cho'Gath adds AP to his auto-attack, so he likes AP and Attack Speed. He also gets big bonus health, and his passive gives healing, so Armor and MR are big for him. By looking up items with combinations of AP, AS, Armor, and MR, you'll probably end up with something viable.

For AP characters I usually start with Boots + 3 Potions (health or mana depends on the champ in question), get Kage's Lucky Pick as soon as I can for a bit of AP and that tasty gold income, and then Chalice of Harmony leading into Athene's Unholy Grail, followed by Rabadon's Deathcap. Some people get Rabadon's first, but I find the multiplicative nature of it makes it more valuable when you already have a couple AP items, and the mana regeneration bonus from Chalice/Grail is a lifesaver early game for many mages. After that, it's really up to the champion in question, how the game's going, etc. Rylai's Crystal Scepter is great for Annie because of her relative lack of Crowd Control / Escape tools, and because the bonus health synergizes with the bonus defences from her shield. Will of the Ancients might be better on Lulu because she's more Support-y and the aura will help the team. And either Void Staff or Abyssal Scepter are pretty much mandatory at some point for mages who like dealing damage.

But really, there's a lot of viable build orders out there, and what works at high ELO for lvl 30 summoners might not apply in the slightest for those of us down with the newbies. A lot of core assumptions simply don't apply. And, more importantly, a lot changes based on your own personal playstyle. I tend to forget to activate Actives on my items, and my computer is usually a little laggy in big fights anyway, so I avoid those unless it's clearly the perfect choice.

Good luck, and feel free to add me as a contact - same name as I use here. :)

[toasty]

For AP characters I usually start with Boots + 3 Potions (health or mana depends on the champ in question), get Kage's Lucky Pick as soon as I can for a bit of AP and that tasty gold income, and then Chalice of Harmony leading into Athene's Unholy Grail, followed by Rabadon's Deathcap. Some people get Rabadon's first, but I find the multiplicative nature of it makes it more valuable when you already have a couple AP items, and the mana regeneration bonus from Chalice/Grail is a lifesaver early game for many mages. After that, it's really up to the champion in question, how the game's going, etc. Rylai's Crystal Scepter is great for Annie because of her relative lack of Crowd Control / Escape tools, and because the bonus health synergizes with the bonus defences from her shield. Will of the Ancients might be better on Lulu because she's more Support-y and the aura will help the team. And either Void Staff or Abyssal Scepter are pretty much mandatory at some point for mages who like dealing damage.

As few thoughts:
Kage's Lucky pick isn't always a good choice because it weakens your laning phase. It might be the "best" Gold/10 item for middle lane, but its still not amazing.

Athenes is really good, but many mages don't have mana and/or mana problems (for instance, NEVER build Athenes on Annie!).

Abyssal is not a late game item, it is a mid-game item. The best Abyssal build is one that stacks as much Flat Pen as possible, and/or exists in a Double AP comp.

Will of the Ancients is largely useless now, even on supporty-APs such as lulu. If you want a utility item, get Rylais, Hourglass, or Abyssal, those are the good utility AP items. Lichbane too, I suppose, at least for Twisted Fate.

[Godskook]

For example, Cho'Gath adds AP to his auto-attack, so he likes AP and Attack Speed. He also gets big bonus health, and his passive gives healing, so Armor and MR are big for him. By looking up items with combinations of AP, AS, Armor, and MR, you'll probably end up with something viable.

Be careful when saying that. People might get the impression Nashor's is better on him than it is. Granted, AS is really good on him, and AP is really good on him, but there aren't any good AS/AP items for him(I suppose a late-game Nashors into an otherwise AP bruiser build would work, but nobody should rush that on him).

Also, you missed CDR. CDR is *REALLY* good on him. He loves Frozen Heart, and the Gp5 meta of S2 was really good to him as well, since adding Omen+Reverie makes 40% CDR. Add choice MR options plus Mercs, and you had a jungle Cho build(really, FoN, Abyssal and Wits were all good on him).

[Silverraptor]

I just checked my justice review on Tribunal and found my first permabanned player that arose from one of my judgements! I'm probably more excited than I should be.

[LordShotGun]

I just checked my justice review on Tribunal and found my first permabanned player that arose from one of my judgements! I'm probably more excited than I should be.

Do you feel a small rush of power? A greater sense of self? Perhaps defeating these internet trolls has finally given you enough experience to level up.

Now you just have to figure out what class you want to take or perhaps if you even qualify for a prestige class!

[NineThePuma]

Nah. Silver is like a Champion.

He's gonna single class all the way.

[Silverraptor]

Do you feel a small rush of power? A greater sense of self? Perhaps defeating these internet trolls has finally given you enough experience to level up.

Now you just have to figure out what class you want to take or perhaps if you even qualify for a prestige class!

Nah. Silver is like a Champion.

He's gonna single class all the way.

[TechnOkami]

I see you smilin' boy. Get back on your Raptor (he's obviously a beast master riding the beast itself).

[sonofzeal]

Be careful when saying that. People might get the impression Nashor's is better on him than it is. Granted, AS is really good on him, and AP is really good on him, but there aren't any good AS/AP items for him(I suppose a late-game Nashors into an otherwise AP bruiser build would work, but nobody should rush that on him).

Well, I don't claim to be a Cho master. Or, really, a master at anything. And while you may know all the pros and cons of each item, and what's considered "viable" or "unviable", people like Xiander and I generally don't. So rather than break down specific itemizations for each champion, I was trying to discuss the way you can try to make educated guesses by yourself. Educated guesses (like Nashor's) are never going to be quite as good as the community results of thousands upon thousands of games of experimentation, but they'll be a big step up from the "Recommended" lists and give a stepping stone for future improvement. That was the idea anyway.

Also, you missed CDR. CDR is *REALLY* good on him. He loves Frozen Heart, and the Gp5 meta of S2 was really good to him as well, since adding Omen+Reverie makes 40% CDR. Add choice MR options plus Mercs, and you had a jungle Cho build(really, FoN, Abyssal and Wits were all good on him).

I'm of the opinion that CDR is really good on just about everyone. There's a few exceptions, but for most characters it'll help them leverage their power much more effectively. Still, yeah, I should have mentioned that.

As few thoughts:
Kage's Lucky pick isn't always a good choice because it weakens your laning phase. It might be the "best" Gold/10 item for middle lane, but its still not amazing.

Athenes is really good, but many mages don't have mana and/or mana problems (for instance, NEVER build Athenes on Annie!).

Abyssal is not a late game item, it is a mid-game item. The best Abyssal build is one that stacks as much Flat Pen as possible, and/or exists in a Double AP comp.

Will of the Ancients is largely useless now, even on supporty-APs such as lulu. If you want a utility item, get Rylais, Hourglass, or Abyssal, those are the good utility AP items. Lichbane too, I suppose, at least for Twisted Fate.

*shrugs* Opinions differ, and situations differ. I like Kage's on Annie because her laning phase is strong anyway and the extra gold really helps later. And when I was only barely squeaking in to double-digit summoner levels, my last-hitting wasn't fantastic and my mana conservation was poor, even with Annie, so Athenes was quite useful, especially since it's such a strong item overall. This is kind of what I was talking about earlier - what holds true for people with tones of experience and skill doesn't always apply to newbies. Yeah, a well-played Annie won't need Athene's, but that leaves some things unsaid.

[ChaosOS]

CDR is good on people who are tanky and can actually wait for their CDs. ADCs for example 1. Don't derive most of their DPS from skills and 2. Need to focus more on getting damage than survivability CDR would provide on dashes.

Mages it depends on mage to mage, for example Lux likes CDR because 40% CDR means she can get another rotation of spells in a fight which is huge because of her enormous bases and ridiculous utility. Anivia tends to be tanky, and Orianna already has short CDs so she directly scales her DPS with CDR.

[TheShrike]

I'm of the opinion that CDR is really good on just about everyone. There's a few exceptions, but for most characters it'll help them leverage their power much more effectively. Still, yeah, I should have mentioned that.

Everyone benefits from CDR, but not everyone benefits enough to itemize it. A fair amount of mages care little for CDR and most AD carrys care nothing at all, most bruisers love it but even some of them (Jax, Nocturne, Wukong) care less. Sure, everyone in the game wants 40% CDR, but some characters just want other stuff more.

[Godskook]

Well, I don't claim to be a Cho master. Or, really, a master at anything.

Eh, I wasn't disagreeing with ya, just expounding on a point your post left misleading.

Educated guesses (like Nashor's) are never going to be quite as good as the community results of thousands upon thousands of games of experimentation, but they'll be a big step up from the "Recommended" lists and give a stepping stone for future improvement. That was the idea anyway.

I'm not aware of Cho's recommended list, but Nashors can be pretty bad when rushed.

I'm of the opinion that CDR is really good on just about everyone. There's a few exceptions, but for most characters it'll help them leverage their power much more effectively. Still, yeah, I should have mentioned that.

Yeah, pretty much everyone. The main exceptions are AD carries(still not bad here, but its not worth itemizing over auto-damage) and energy users(since CDR doesn't fix their energy consumption issues).

Athenes is really good, but many mages don't have mana and/or mana problems (for instance, NEVER build Athenes on Annie!).

That's what's called a bad example. While Athene's might not be "primary build" on Annie, its definitely "sideboard", to borrow a MtG term. Hell, Athene's status on mage sideboard is among the hardest to deny. CDR+AP+MR, how can you go wrong? With the aura nerf to Abyssal, Athene's is probably the go-to mage v. mage dueling item right now.

Abyssal is not a late game item, it is a mid-game item. The best Abyssal build is one that stacks as much Flat Pen as possible, and/or exists in a Double AP comp.

Except Abyssal has been scaling just fine into late game for over two years, with only one major nerf in that time, and that nerf didn't hit the item's scaling power. Granted, if you're playing someone who'd rather have Voidstaff, buy that instead, but some champions need the MR more than that extra M-Pen

Will of the Ancients is largely useless now

On 'standard' mages, maybe, but Vlad and Morde still love it

[Nadevoc]

*shrugs* Opinions differ, and situations differ. I like Kage's on Annie because her laning phase is strong anyway and the extra gold really helps later.

This might seem odd, but champs with strong laning phases are exactly who SHOULDN'T be getting GP5, at least in my opinion. I understand the thinking - GP5 are weak items, and champs with a strong laning phase even that out to have an okay laning phase and then the extra gold. But I've always felt champs with strong laning phases should take items that accentuate it, then really push that advantage home. I see some people buy GP5 items on Darius because his laning phase is strong enough to withstand it, but they give up their ability to really lane bully. Instead, buy items that make your laning phase even stronger (Doran's, Phage, rush the Deathcap, whatever) and just bully your opponent out of the lane, giving yourself some kills and free farm AND putting your lane opponent behind.

[McDouggal]

When I play Ryze, I build him without CDR. Since his passive and Q and...

Am I a bad person? Every other Ryze I see has CDR in their build.

[tyckspoon]

When I play Ryze, I build him without CDR. Since his passive and Q and...

Am I a bad person? Every other Ryze I see has CDR in their build.

Yes. Get a Frozen Heart.

(Edit: It's not *just* that capping out CDR is good, but the good CDR items *also* are really good items for Ryze. Mana, CDR, and a huge chunk of survivability against ADs on a champ who scales his damage by mana, benefits greatly from CDR, and has to get uncomfortably close to enemy champs to fight? Why would you *not* do this?)