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2012-11-13, 09:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
Considering my last game I got stuck with a feeder top Vladimir who first picked and instalocked, despite me having called it, leaving me to lane bot as Nunu, yeah. I have noticed a slight increase. The number of people who don't seem to know what Draft Pick is depresses me.
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2012-11-13, 09:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Jan 2012
Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
I kinda had that feeling..... I main top, and honestly, I've stopped trusting randoms to solo lane, which is why I am glad I usually have 2-3 friends on to pick up some slack....
owell, guess I'm alone in this one.
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2012-11-13, 10:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
What I've started disliking is the idea of calling your lane. I mean sure, it's better than autolocking, but something about it just irritates me. I'm not sure what.
Maybe it's because it's a perfectly legitimate system and I just get all annoyed that I basically have no reason to NOT go with it. Then everyone instacalls their lane and I inevitably get stuck tanking or supporting or jungling or something when maybe I just want to play a good old bursty caster AP Mid. So what if I don't call my lane instantly, I like midlane too :(
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2012-11-13, 10:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
I'm mostly here for Warframe and a tiny bit of RWBY.
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2012-11-13, 10:05 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
I'm in a sleepy state, so i'm not concetrating too hard, but off the top of my head here's a few champs who I think would be troubled by a PvE game mode:
Fiddlesticks
Akali
Nunu (I guess you could just support with Bloodboil and throw your iltimate, but eh)
Blitz (Until you get his ult, but that's his only wave clearinf ability. Also, fist becomes useless)
Evelyn
Irelia
Leblanc
Nidalee (Albeit I think her cat form has a AoE effect or something, so less so here)
Poppy
Shen
Sona
Trundle
A few of them i'm unsure of, but put them there due to a lack of AoE or heavy pushing power. Some champs, like WW, who lack AoE/Wave cleared effects but can merely sustain and smash open a lane anyway from sheer punchingness. Aside from that I don't have much else to contribute. It'd be nice to have a game mode like that, but it'd definetely be treated as secondary in comparison to even the other game modes. Something more for laughs and derping around then actually playing League.“I’m a Terrorist not an idiot.” - Me
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2012-11-13, 10:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-13, 11:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
This list sounds like you're only thinking about waves of standard minions. Single-target DPS would still have a place in taking out, say, Promote or Super Minions that might get mixed into the waves, not to mention jungle-buff/Dragon/Baron level monsters that might either be map objectives of this hypothetical game mode or just get dropped into certain waves specifically to challenge builds/teamcomps that focus only on AoE clears... And you can itemize for wave-pushing if that's what you really, really need, anyway. Get a Sunfire and a Tiamat, clear all the waves. Stupid build in (current) Summoner's Rift, sure, but you're not playing Summoner's Rift.
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2012-11-13, 11:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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- Aug 2012
Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
I personally run a build similar to, but distinct from, yours. I run the stupidly powerful Shurelia's/Randuin's opener (sometimes Philo/Ghostblade/Randuin's, if I get fed early). Next item is usually a Frozen Heart, and if it isn't it's a Hexdrinker. Regardless of which one comes first, the other comes right after in most cases. I rarely end games far enough in to get a 6th item slot, but it primarily goes into either Warmog's or GA. Despite what you may feel, 400 armour is only rarely overkill in an endgame scenario. Also, Aegis is not a weak item, even if someone else has it. The aura stacks, after all.
I find that ASpd is a fairly wasted stat on Olaf, mainly due to the fact that he both gets free attack speed and has another way to efficiently apply a 1.0 AD ratio, specifically his Q. You're never going to be able to build enough ASpd to make it worth AAing over axe spam, honestly.
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2012-11-13, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-13, 11:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
I haven't noticed a significant change w.r.t. calls vs. higher pick. People have been bitching at each other about that since time immemorial.
Fair enough on the 3.5 balance point. I didn't think that one all the way through. To people who are still saying "AOE or AD carry or bust," do you really think that the people skilled enough to get through with a tryhard comp won't go back with Fizz? Do you think that these people won't start speed-clear competitions and the like? There's plenty of room for gameplay beyond the first time someone manages to clear the level, if it's done properly.
I do strongly disagree with the idea that League is too big to fail, or that they have a huge amount of leeway to waste money (and more importantly, development time) on a massive side project unless it's likely to bring in major revenue. However, that just means they should test the waters first; it's not a reason not to do it at all.
---
Anyway, the thing I was originally going to post was that I'm offering bot lane mentoring on a limited basis (only so many hours in the day). No charge or anything; then again, no guarantee of skill, either, considering I'm a scrub who couldn't even get plat.Last edited by Math_Mage; 2012-11-13 at 11:32 PM.
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2012-11-13, 11:36 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
Ah, but did you get Gold?
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2012-11-13, 11:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
I think it might be interesting, but I would suspect the resources needed to create and sustain such a game mode would be a bit much for Riot as is. They don't NEED it, so their manpower and money is better spent elsewhere.
On a different note, I have a folder of champion concepts that needs peer review. If anybody is interested, I'd love some feedback; the best ideas never happen in a vacuum, after all. You can find the folder here. All I ask is that you post constructive and specific criticism as best you can, "Your caster is bad/OP/too niche" is sort of unhelpful.
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2012-11-13, 11:42 PM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-13, 11:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
I don't recall saying that PvE balance was more important than PvP balance, I simply refuted the ridiculous suggestion that PvE balance doesn't matter. Co-Op would be harder to balance because League of Legends was designed as a PvP game, for ****'s sake. These are PvP champions. With abilities meant for PvP. This would be a solid, if not good or even great, concept for an entirely different game, so why does anyone want to shoehorn it into something as functionally limited and poorly suited as League of Legends?
MathMage ended the season with a top rating just a few wins beneath plat, IIRC. So ya, he was pretty gold.
People seriously need to get over themselves. People like to use calls/pick order to be selfish, but it's ridiculous. Neither is more valid than the other and both can make you seem like a huge jerk (you're probably a huge jerk but w/e). That's okay. Of course players have a preference, and most people don't care about inconveniencing other players over such a minor thing. That's fine and natural and all, but the only thing that I find silly is how much some players want their calls or pick order to somehow justify their behavior.
I find it unfun when games offer me the illusion of choice. Let's say that Riot released an AD carry with 700 base range, amazing steroids, a couple of built-in flashes, a short-lived "invincibility button," and two or three large AoE nukes. Seems reasonable. All of the other carries would still exist, but assuming that you wanted to succeed would you really ever have any reason to choose a different carry? What if Irelia and Jax were literally the two best bruisers in the game by a very wide margin. Ignoring the effect they would have on the meta or the competitive scene or whatever, wouldn't you feel that their blatant superiority makes picking and playing your bruiser less enjoyable in general? Maybe you don't. That's also okay. But League is a strategy game. I enjoy its strategic element. People enjoy different things (and different games) for different reasons, but aren't my (potentially niche?) feelings equally valid?
I don't know if anyone else around here picked up Borderlands 2, but it serves as a good example. Broadly speaking, there's a single piece of end-game equipment that was so significantly superior to all of its competition that it not only rendered every other piece of equipment of that type (shields, in this case) completely useless (which is kind of a big deal considering that the vast majority of the series' replay-ability comes from its loot system) but it also single-handedly dictated which weapons and builds were and were not worth using. Sure, I had the choice to use something else, but that didn't stop the object's existence from actively lowering my enjoyment of the game.Last edited by ex cathedra; 2012-11-14 at 12:06 AM.
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2012-11-14, 12:28 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
Fiddle is super useful with his W for tanking anything remotely large
Akali is questionable, her E does give decent wave clear though
Nunu you covered, same reasons you pick him in SR. Plus, anything high AA DPS gets shut down by snowballs
Blitz would be more questionable, give critters buffs they can channel though to make him good
Eve has good wave clear with her Q and awesome map mobility with her W, her passive would be kinda useless but eh
Irelia has solid wave clearing abilities between her QW and R, her E could help her tank anything big.
Nidalee cat does have swipe
Poppy would be useless, but as a tank buster 1v1 she is probably unparalleled
Shen you build waveclear and just never die
Sona is a support, and Q is useful.
Trundle is more of the super sustain, his ult though could wreck any boss-like critters.
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2012-11-14, 12:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-14, 12:41 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
That depends on where the challenge level is set, doesn't it? Either it's balanced such that every champion is functional and some are blatantly overpowered or it's balanced such that certain champions are balanced, other champions are still overpowered, and several are completely non-viable.
The specific challenges hardly matter when how well each champion is suited to the format varies so unbelievably wildly, you know? There would be no "right" balance choices in that scenario, only many distinct wrong choices.
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2012-11-14, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
Of the ones I've played...
Poppy and Blitz both have something amounting to an AD steroid, and other abilites that support building AD. It may not be the popular build for them on SR, but this ain't SR. They'll be fine.
Nunu has an AS steroid that he can share, and Consume. And a devastating AoE ult. He'll be fine.
Irelia has a lifegain steroid, good base stats for this sort of thing, and more lifegain and AoE damage on her ult. She'll be fine.
Trundle has Contaminate to help turtling, and Decompose for sustain. Not to mention all of his abilities work well in extended engagements. He'll be fine.
I understood this quote...
it's much easier to argue that balance in a co-op setting would be an issue
LoL's balance does assume certain contexts, but that doesn't mean everything will explode outside of that. Some champs are stronger at wave-clearing, some have more impressive bursts, some excel at duelling, some are strong early-game, some are strong late-game. But the thing is, most of those strengths and weaknesses would continue to be relevant even in a PvE setting. The relative priorities would certainly shift around, just as they do if you're moving to Dominion (wave-clearing is less important, sustain is less important, movement speed is more important), but there's so many champions covering such a nuanced range of abilities that we're almost certain to see whole suites of them doing better or worse, and a pretty smooth distribution at that. I expect Teemo and Karthus to come out poorly, and Anivia and Heimerdinger to come out strongly, but I doubt the variation will be all that huge. As much as PvE isn't Co-Op, there are enough points of similarity that anyone with strengths in SR should be able to find a niche here. Maybe the niche will be bigger or smaller, but it'll be there.
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2012-11-14, 01:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
And I'm honestly OK with that. Since it's a PvE situation, I don't think it matters as much how unsuitable the worst picks, as long as the "best" picks, of which there will be some, are not overwhelmingly powerful. I mean, even if you look at the PvP game, there are some champs widely considered "top tier" for whatever reason, which is why you see them disproportionately often in pro games, while a lot of champs almost never see the light of day in serious games, because they're just not that good. Sure, some of it is the flavor of the month phenomenon, and it takes time for people to figure out how to play certain champs well, but I doubt you'll ever see, say, Sion or Tryndamere much in high-level games.
Because it's a PvE game, I wouldn't worry as much about balance, because there isn't as much to balance against. In a way, balance exists to make the game more enjoyable to both sides, but since there isn't an "other side" to a PvE game, it's a bit less of a worry. And hey, maybe some people want to play hard mode, and limit themselves to some distinctly sup-optimal champs. As long as the "best" picks aren't too overwhelmingly so, I think a bit of imbalance is acceptable.
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2012-11-14, 04:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
Something along the lines of a more unique PvE wouldn't be that major a queue cost as to warrant concern, since fundamentally such a mode would cover almost none of why people actually wish to play League.
The most significant cost here is development time. Game engineers are a limited resource since we're very picky about the engineers we hire. Right now, I don't think that's a suitable cost for such a mode.
Though, that's also why we have thunderdomes. So, who knows?Avatar by Alarra
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2012-11-14, 05:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
I'm now curious - how modular is LoL's design? A sufficiently modular design should make the implementation of various modes pretty easy (art, interface, and sociological aspects being the major bottlenecks that I can see). On the other hand, LoL was originally designed pretty much purely for the Summoner's Rift map AFAIK, so there was no need for modularity, and modular design always carries a bit of overhead.
Last edited by sonofzeal; 2012-11-14 at 05:42 AM.
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2012-11-14, 05:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
The most significant cost here is development time. Game engineers are a limited resource since we're very picky about the engineers we hire. Right now, I don't think that's a suitable cost for such a mode.
Sheesh.. does the fanbase have to explain everything to Riot?thnx to Starwoof for the fine avatar
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2012-11-14, 05:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
It depends.
Do mind that League of Legends was built with only a handful of employees initially. To heighten this issue, it was built fully (from game engine to web site) without any publisher.
There's quite a bit that's modular now, but it's not far enough along for it to just be a sandbox for design.
Edit:
I'd like to mention my outlook MIGHT be a bit engineer biased.
Design is also VERY tight on resources right now and it'd require an incredible amount of design work. Preseason and Season 3 has us all pretty much booked.Last edited by Reinboom; 2012-11-14 at 06:02 AM.
Avatar by Alarra
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2012-11-14, 06:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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2012-11-14, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
This isn't an attack at Riot, but I find it astounding that this sort of thing actually happens and more so that it happens to so many people, including myself. I frequently get out of a game of LoL and honestly wish I hadn't played due to the reactions of the players around me.
You mention you enjoy Coop vs AI but would you play more normals, with or without your friends, if the community wouldn't make you feel so bad after? I know I would.
I agree with the poster, I believe in the previous thread, who said that it is much better than it was a year ago and I also believe Riot has done a stellar job in introducing mechanisms to curb the behaviour of certain players. I know there have been complaints about people begging for honour/abusing the system but i'd rather have someone talk about wanting honour that someone raging.
Also on top of all this i'm incredibly happy that they say they don't feel they've done enough and want to improve the systems they've got in place/introduce additional methods.
I'm not attempting to bash them at all because I believe they are a company that has put its players first. Every time I read a thread with replies from Lyte he remains calm and collected in the face of verbal abuse, aimed at him/his team and his work, and gives resonable responses to some, in my opinion anyway, delirious people. On top of that having the stones to post that he didn't want certain people playing his game and didn't want them back in the community is something I respect highly.
Sorry that went slightly off my original topic.
Edit: Re the PvE game mode. I'd like to see it as more variety isn't a bad thing, assuming the player base is still around to play ranked games etc. I just hope they don't end up doing a wow and nerfing a viable champion in PvP becuase he's OP in PvE.
I like that riot has stuck to its guns with balance focused on SR.
Edit2:
It'd be interesting to have one of those "1 day developments" that i've seen in the UK, though they are usually on an independant project that involves creating something in a day that is then released free, or otherwise, on the web.
Ie you have an open call for people to come to a certain location, they post experience/CVs and you cherry pick the people you want weeks before the event (and can ensure they have the relevant skills). Equipment is provided and they spend the day coding set on certain parameters, like a PvE mode for LoL.
It gives them something to add to their CVs as its relevant design experience for a reputable game company so many people would sign up, well i'm just using it based on things that have occured in the UK, for the unpaid opportunity.
Of course this isn't 'free' work, in that someone at riot has to set this up and supervise it etc, and may not provide an actual product but could lay a lot of the base down for people to build on. No idea how you'd go about doing it or whether it'd be worth it, would probably be good PR at the very least.Last edited by Talesin; 2012-11-14 at 06:56 AM.
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2012-11-14, 07:36 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
Every once in a while, I keep linking this in this thread, usually to little to no response at all, much to my chagrin, because I think it is a fascinating topic:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRlYM9F50EQ
This being a talk of about 13 minutes on how certain game design elements can "trick" people into behaving worse than they usually would. It does not mention LoL, but it talks a fair bit about Heroes of Newearth, so, not far off.
(the second part, dealing with design elements that trick people into behaving better than usual, is here)LGBTitP Supporter
In a Wonderland they lie, Dreaming as the days go by, Dreaming as the summers die - Ever drifting down the stream - Lingering in the golden gleam - Life, what is it, but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll
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2012-11-14, 07:44 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
Point taken. Given the break-neck pace of LoL's expansion, I'm not at all surprised you guys are heavily booked. I have to admit though, I was kind of expecting a decrease in champion releases after things got finalized for the world championships, and/or you guys passed the magic "100" mark. I can't help wishing some of that energy went into these sorts of projects instead... but I do understand how much new champions drive your profit margins, and how something like this would only boost revenue indirectly through attracting a more diverse player base and is thus harder to justify on a cost-return model. Still, I would hope Riot is still at the point where "making the game a better experience" is an end to itself, rather than having to be justified at every turn.....
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2012-11-14, 08:30 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
Current rating of 1635 after 5 support wins in a row. For reference, that is 3 below efdf's elo after the reset(Unless lolking is lying to me, which it doesn't look like) Basically, barring huge shifts in elo, a lot higher then I ended last season. There is no way I deserve this elo.
I don't know whether to be scared or excited. We'll see after my next 5 games probably.
Oh right, I had a question. When does the inflated elo gains/losses start normalizing, and at what rate? Just curious, and I can't find a good estimate anywhere.(Something like 40-30 first 5 games, lose about 2-3 elo gain/loss on average after that would be a good example, though I don't think that's what it is.)Last edited by TFT; 2012-11-14 at 08:45 AM. Reason: Sry mods. Please forgive me.
Thanks goes to Vampire Pumpkin for my awesome avatar!
Formerly known as The Fiery Tower Formerly known as Catseye2121.
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2012-11-14, 09:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold
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2012-11-14, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: League of Legends XL: Season on Hold 'til Morello gets Gold