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  1. - Top - End - #151
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by ShriekingDrake View Post
    So I take it, you'd say that neither of these spells would need to be banned if we just limited the possible form/shape to core? Would others agree with this?
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    Quote Originally Posted by ShriekingDrake View Post
    Evard's can be fixed.
    I wasn't aware that there was a problem with this spell ?
    Just what fix are you proposing ?
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  2. - Top - End - #152
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Wings of Cover is a good one to add to the list. At high level, I could see a Sorcerer just using Heighten Spell and burning most of his lower level slots to cast this as needed to avoid nearly any attack.

  3. - Top - End - #153
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    Wings of Cover is a good one to add to the list. At high level, I could see a Sorcerer just using Heighten Spell and burning most of his lower level slots to cast this as needed to avoid nearly any attack.
    It's powerful, but it's arguably not too powerful for the same reason your described strategy doesn't actually work: you only get one immediate action per round.
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  4. - Top - End - #154
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    FWIW, I think the planar binding line works just fine if used as intended. It's when a player tries to get something for nothing and/or abuses the called outsider that it becomes a problem.

    It's a player generated plot-hook if used well and a nightmarish headache if used poorly or abusively.

    I can certainly understand banning it to avoid the latter.
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  5. - Top - End - #155
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kelb_Panthera View Post
    FWIW, I think the planar binding line works just fine if used as intended. It's when a player tries to get something for nothing and/or abuses the called outsider that it becomes a problem.

    It's a player generated plot-hook if used well and a nightmarish headache if used poorly or abusively.

    I can certainly understand banning it to avoid the latter.
    I don't disagree with this. But I want to avoid the nightmarish headache. It might be too conservative to do so, but I don't think we lose something essential by banning it. That said, I could still be convinced otherwise.

  6. - Top - End - #156
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    The main problem with the Planar Binding fix of assuming certain things about outsider behavior is that its basically a stealth nerf. A player might come in with the expectation that the spell works one way and then get slapped by the equivalent of 'rocks fall, everyone dies' as a million outsiders converge on them and crush them for their hubris, but that doesn't really make for good gaming.

    For me though I'd just remove the ability to compel behavior from all of the outsider summoning spells, make it clear to players that you have to pre-negotiate the spell with the summoned being, and that you can get the same one each time so that pre-negotiation is actually useful.

  7. - Top - End - #157
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by NichG View Post
    The main problem with the Planar Binding fix of assuming certain things about outsider behavior is that its basically a stealth nerf. A player might come in with the expectation that the spell works one way and then get slapped by the equivalent of 'rocks fall, everyone dies' as a million outsiders converge on them and crush them for their hubris, but that doesn't really make for good gaming.

    For me though I'd just remove the ability to compel behavior from all of the outsider summoning spells, make it clear to players that you have to pre-negotiate the spell with the summoned being, and that you can get the same one each time so that pre-negotiation is actually useful.
    It's only a stealth nerf if you don't tell the player about it when they pick up a calling spell.

    The binding line are noteables in the way of significantly impacting -any- campaign they take place in and should, consequently, be something for which a good DM watches. Allowing a player to select one of the planar binding spells without comment is bad DM'ing, IMO, unless you've already had a discussion on the nature of such things as a matter of discussing your shared hobby. Even then a quick reminder of said conversation would be a good way to err on the side of caution.

    The same is true, albeit to a much lesser extent, to planar ally and; to an even lesser, but still noteable extent; certain spells of the enchantment school.

    Also of note; there's a clause in the planar binding spells that prevents you from compelling the called creature without making -some- kind of deal.
    Quote Originally Posted by PHB pg 262
    Impossible demands or unreasonable commands are never agreed to.
    Emphasis mine.

    Since the DM runs the called creature (who is an NPC, remember) it's up to his discression to determine what's reasonable.
    Last edited by Kelb_Panthera; 2012-12-08 at 01:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ThiagoMartell View Post
    Kelb, recently it looks like you're the Avatar of Reason in these forums, man.
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  8. - Top - End - #158
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    I'm still tinkering with this list. I'll likely remove Enhance Wildshape, as it isn't broken--even though I think its not necessary to have this spell.
    Last edited by ShriekingDrake; 2013-01-29 at 09:10 PM.

  9. - Top - End - #159

    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    I had a substitute GM who wanted to ban entire classes of spells (divination) and I discovered in the first game would liberally engage in the disfunction of "every NPC has permanent true seeing".

    I think it really just taught me to avoid spells that can be gibbed by fiat.

  10. - Top - End - #160
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I had a substitute GM who wanted to ban entire classes of spells (divination) and I discovered in the first game would liberally engage in the disfunction of "every NPC has permanent true seeing".

    I think it really just taught me to avoid spells that can be gibbed by fiat.
    It's a good point, if I understand it. In the end, what's banned for the party should be banned for the DM. It's why I haven't removed Miracle, Wish, and Limited Wish. Admittedly, I think they are risky spells that must be used sparingly, by all.

  11. - Top - End - #161

    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Incidentally, if you really are disturbed by some spells, just enforce the actual rules as written for casting spells and you'll rapidly discover how balanced it is.

    Ex: A standard wizard (no frills) would need 3 spellbooks just to write down the spells they get from leveling to 20th. That's 9 lbs of gear they basically 'have' to carry around with them to prepare for a day of adventuring. Then check out the spell components, the better spells routinely require you to have gems worth several thousand gp or the like. Spells generally do require more preparation and money input than is noticed. Making someone with a default strength of 8 carry all that crap seems a just balancing act. (They still have to lug it even if they don't actually prepare the spell, i.e. if they want to be 'able' to cast most anything they're going to be trucking around ....well...a truck worth of materials. Nevermind the weight of gear.

  12. - Top - End - #162
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    Incidentally, if you really are disturbed by some spells, just enforce the actual rules as written for casting spells and you'll rapidly discover how balanced it is.

    Ex: A standard wizard (no frills) would need 3 spellbooks just to write down the spells they get from leveling to 20th. That's 9 lbs of gear they basically 'have' to carry around with them to prepare for a day of adventuring. Then check out the spell components, the better spells routinely require you to have gems worth several thousand gp or the like. Spells generally do require more preparation and money input than is noticed. Making someone with a default strength of 8 carry all that crap seems a just balancing act. (They still have to lug it even if they don't actually prepare the spell, i.e. if they want to be 'able' to cast most anything they're going to be trucking around ....well...a truck worth of materials. Nevermind the weight of gear.
    Invisible (tenser's) floating disk disagrees. A dominated (insert dumb minion) is commanded to disagree.

    Also
    Overland fly = shuts down melee all day long, no component worth noting
    (Greater) Teleport = makes random encounters vanish and completely changes play dynamics, no component worth noting
    Summon (anything) = most versatile spell sans shadow conjuration, no component worth noting
    Polymorph any object = okay I lied. Do anything. Become anything. Permanently.
    No component worth noting.
    Wish = Remember all those crafting feats those foolish arcane casters took? Yeah the fools 5000 xp which are converted to the desired item as a standard action.
    See a pattern? I could go on really...

    EDIT: Lastly all wizards buy / steal / murder in order to obtain this for their spell book needs
    Last edited by peacenlove; 2013-02-04 at 10:36 AM.

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  13. - Top - End - #163
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    I have had the situation where I was playing a Sorcerer and planned my spell selection 4 or so levels in advance. I would pass over a spell intending to take a higher level one in its place, only to discover, much to my surprise, that the DM banned the second spell. This happened several times and left me with a poor spell set The DM's ban list was very unpredictable.
    This. The idea of a gentleman's agreemant in such a rules-bound game is absurd. There's no way two people (let alone a DM and 4+ players) are going to have the same idea of what is OK and what is not.

    Giving people a framework to work in makes everyone's lives easier.

  14. - Top - End - #164

    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by peacenlove View Post
    Invisible (tenser's) floating disk disagrees. A dominated (insert dumb minion) is commanded to disagree.
    I kind of like the dominate [monster; person] idea. Tenser's would let you down (literally) as soon as you teleport, dimension door, or fly. So you'd have to burn scrolls on this I suppose, or waste slots in casting it.

    Also
    Overland fly = shuts down melee all day long, no component worth noting
    When outdoors...granted most melee would be able to shoot you with arrows here, or go stand under a tree preventing you from targetting them with spells, but sure...in an open field, not bad.

    (Greater) Teleport = makes random encounters vanish and completely changes play dynamics, no component worth noting
    Yep, I'd take it too. The point is that some spells require spell components/foci weigh something and cost something.

    Polymorph any object = okay I lied. Do anything. Become anything. Permanently. No component worth noting.
    Yeah and have it's int too, so if you pick wrong you are a squirrel. Forever. No component worth noting?? It requires 'smoke'. So you have to light a torch or start a fire first which isn't exactly the first thing a mage is doing in combat.

    Wish = Remember all those crafting feats those foolish arcane casters took? Yeah the fools 5000 xp which are converted to the desired item as a standard action.
    See a pattern? I could go on really...
    You actually pay 2x the xp cost + 5,000xp for anything magic...so you're not exactly getting a leg up on the normal crafting route. Sure, it's one spell instead of having to have already memorized all the others...but still.

    Edit: Yeah the Blessed book is good...but you'd still have to carry around the books until you get the 10k for it...that's alot to spend until you're just tripping over treasure.
    Last edited by Pickford; 2013-02-04 at 02:15 PM.

  15. - Top - End - #165
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    Edit: Yeah the Blessed book is good...but you'd still have to carry around the books until you get the 10k for it...that's alot to spend until you're just tripping over treasure.
    But all the wizard needs is that, a spell component pouch, and a headband of intellect. I mean yes rings of deflection, cloaks of resistance, and things are nice but the wizard doesn't really need them to scale well.

    Edit: And you can get that book well within wealth by level at around 8 long before you start running out of pages in your first book I believe. Even less if crafting.
    Last edited by Suddo; 2013-02-04 at 02:52 PM.
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  16. - Top - End - #166
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pickford View Post
    I kind of like the dominate [monster; person] idea. Tenser's would let you down (literally) as soon as you teleport, dimension door, or fly. So you'd have to burn scrolls on this I suppose, or waste slots in casting it.
    By the time you're using dimension door or fly, a handy haversack (2000gp) is a readily affordable bit of gear (and something most characters will want anyway).

    When outdoors...granted most melee would be able to shoot you with arrows here, or go stand under a tree preventing you from targetting them with spells, but sure...in an open field, not bad.
    Given protection from arrows, wind wall, and the feat and gear investment required to make ranged attacks interesting, this isn't too big a deal. (Also, average maneuverability is surprisingly decent.)

    Yeah and have it's int too, so if you pick wrong you are a squirrel. Forever. No component worth noting?? It requires 'smoke'. So you have to light a torch or start a fire first which isn't exactly the first thing a mage is doing in combat.
    I have to ask: what kind of foolish mage casts a permanent buff spell on himself in combat? No, really!
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  17. - Top - End - #167
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    Unless others have suggestions, I'll move on to spells that should be fixed. Thanks for all the good advice.

  18. - Top - End - #168
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    Default Re: Spells: What to Ban?

    I've made a few small tweaks.

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