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    Playgrounders, I need some advice ~

    I am building a "village" of gypsy-type characters. It's like a tent village, obviously, since they are nomads. What do you think would be a good idea for the "fighters" of a group like this? I was thinking along the lines of brutish brawlers, just hardcore fist fighter/martial artists. thoughts?

    The big issue, though, is this: I want this group to be a band of Illithid haters. They've had children abducted from them through the years by the flayers and consequently have a keen hatred for the flayers...possibly even sending groups of fighters/magic users below the surface to attack flayer homelands. I want the magic users of these gypsies to be of the hexing/cursing sort, mixed with magic that would buff/heal/support their fighters. I want their hexes to be powerful and viciously nasty. Is there a template for such a thing out there? Do you all have any recommendations? You wanna build one for me? I would want them (fighters and magic users) to be around level 12.

    Because they go into the underdark on illithid raids, would it be safe to say that they have an "agreement" with the drow, derro, and svirfneblin? Would it fit to have a few Sage/Mystic Wanderers in their camp?

    Thank you in advance ~
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    Default Re: Gypsies

    I've always pictured fantasy gypsies as psionic. The fighters are Psychic Warriors. The leader is a Telepath. The Vizier is a Seer. The smart alec defender is a Nomad. The Quiet One is a Shaper. The Kineticists and Egoists complement the Psychic Warriors. The "misfits" are Wilders.

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    Scouts with riposte variant might be worthwhile, also warlocks would probably fit in the the theme of a gypsies. Also look at the shadowdance prestige class in complete scoundrel if you need an idea for a more advance build, loses caster levels but offers some interesting options for a dancing based character theme.

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    My suggestion for the gypsie fighters would be more of finesse like characters eg swashbucklers but that isn't mechanically the best options maybe a daring rogue build? If not they could all be swordsages which would be very interesting fluff wise you have them developing their own school of fighting and PC's could learn from them if they wanted to become swordsages. As for the magic casters... if you're playing 3.P I suggest strongly at looking at the witch class from the Pathfinder Advanced Players guide or by going to the PFSRD site. They would be perfect since they get all the hexes you could ever want and work well in groups/covens
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    Default Re: Gypsies

    I see Gypsies as having close links with Fey. So you could make them Warlocks, maybe even they are the only warlocks ?

    I also like the Hexblade concept, so perhaps a class not unlike this homebrew.
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    The last time i threw gypsies at the players they cheated the barbarian out of everything he had. When he felt he should "take back whats his" the gypsy leader introduced him to "costumer service", aka. his golem.

    The gypsies i used were mainly rogues or expects. The leader was high level rogue with full ranks in UMD.
    I don't see gypsies as the fighting type, either they have others do their fighting for them, or they go else where. But that's just me.

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    Halflings are usually my base for D&D "gypsy"-types. (Races of the Wild has a lot for that archetype). In my mind, fighters of that sort would be more built for quick raids and guerilla tactics, than heavily-armored knights. (Nomads have to carry it all with them, etc). Scout- or Ranger-types, Rogue multiclasses, and maybe even a sprinkling of Barbarians or Swordsages, would be my idea of their fighters. Horizon Walkers would definitely fit conceptually. If there are casters, they'd be built along illusionist lines, or geared for divination and stealth (locate the enemy with Scry or similar, Invisibility, Silence, Haste, and off you go).
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    Quote Originally Posted by leegi0n View Post
    Playgrounders, I need some advice ~

    I am building a "village" of gypsy-type characters. It's like a tent village, obviously, since they are nomads. What do you think would be a good idea for the "fighters" of a group like this? I was thinking along the lines of brutish brawlers, just hardcore fist fighter/martial artists. thoughts?
    Well, there is some precedent for that. With regard for the illithid hatred, refluffed monk type stuff could help with the grapple checks to not get their brains sucked out, if I recall.

    If you're going for a different sort of gypsy (noting that the above examples of fist-fighting both deal with relatively modern Travellers), maybe something akin to a Dervish, like a slightly less mainstream western Europe equivalent to the swashbuckling idea people have suggested. Given frequent travel and the traditional association of Romani with trained animals, a properly fluffed ranger would work pretty perfectly for the more continental/old-school vision of Romani, and fit well with your illithid hatred. Bear animal companions, aberration favored enemy, two-weapon fighting, able to scout and guide for the group, &c.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zrak View Post
    Well, there is some precedent for that. With regard for the illithid hatred, refluffed monk type stuff could help with the grapple checks to not get their brains sucked out, if I recall.

    If you're going for a different sort of gypsy (noting that the above examples of fist-fighting both deal with relatively modern Travellers), maybe something akin to a Dervish, like a slightly less mainstream western Europe equivalent to the swashbuckling idea people have suggested. Given frequent travel and the traditional association of Romani with trained animals, a properly fluffed ranger would work pretty perfectly for the more continental/old-school vision of Romani, and fit well with your illithid hatred. Bear animal companions, aberration favored enemy, two-weapon fighting, able to scout and guide for the group, &c.
    You're actually right on with the Snatch reference. I didn't realize my subconscious association at the time of posting, but it's right on. The "boys" would all be like this. The older (women especially) like Mickey's mah, would be hexer witches/fortune tellers, etc. I will probably go the psionic route a bit, but I want it to have almost a voodoo draw to it too. Any ideas for that?

    Is there a class or classes that tailor that? Is there a class that tailors to the dirty bare-knuckle boxing? Monk w/duskblade, where the hands are the weapons?
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    For the basic NPC warriors, thug, sneak attack Fighter? No need to make things too complicated, but sneak attack, says, to me, finesse and precision, and the extra skills and class skills also help.
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    Okay, it sounds like you want rangers (with a hint of barbarian) who focus on two-weapon fighting and take favored enemy (aberrations), the elite of which take levels in Slayer (if they can; I don't have any psionics books). Rage + Iron Will + decent wisdom = defense against mind flayers. Also, give them improved unarmed strike and improved grapple if you want them to be "brawlers" - their twf will simulate their fighting with fists. Improved Grapple is useful when illithids try to eat your brain.

    The casters sound just like PF witches.

    12th level is very high just for a band of gypsies...unless they really are one of the more elite groups of people in the world. If they are some of the premier illithid hunters, it would make sense.

    EDIT: Scouts would work too. I chose ranger because of favored enemy and full bab. Duergar are known to hate and hunt illithids - dwarf/duergar slayers are known as "karadhackers". However, if you really want them to have illithid hating allies, pick githyanki. Those guys are all about killing illithids.
    Last edited by Seharvepernfan; 2012-11-13 at 06:01 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by leegi0n View Post
    Playgrounders, I need some advice ~

    I am building a "village" of gypsy-type characters. It's like a tent village, obviously, since they are nomads. What do you think would be a good idea for the "fighters" of a group like this? I was thinking along the lines of brutish brawlers, just hardcore fist fighter/martial artists. thoughts?
    Well, as nomads they've got a small tight-knit community. This means they don't have such a thing as "expendable troops". The soldiers would probably only fight long enough for the main convoy to get to safety, and they'd have a system in place where they could meet up later. What springs to mind for this is something like a wand of sending operated by an odd command word (+2~+6 to UMD DC).

    The big issue, though, is this: I want this group to be a band of Illithid haters. They've had children abducted from them through the years by the flayers and consequently have a keen hatred for the flayers...possibly even sending groups of fighters/magic users below the surface to attack flayer homelands. I want the magic users of these gypsies to be of the hexing/cursing sort, mixed with magic that would buff/heal/support their fighters. I want their hexes to be powerful and viciously nasty. Is there a template for such a thing out there? Do you all have any recommendations? You wanna build one for me? I would want them (fighters and magic users) to be around level 12.
    Seems reasonable. One thing you could do is make the casters enchanters with spell focus/greater spell focus (enchantment) and higher level casters could have a special feat that allows them to treat intelligent aberrations as humanoids for the purposes of mind-affecting abilities (like dominate person would affect mind flayers if they failed the save) and another feat that adds an additional +1 to the save DCs of mind-affecting spells used against aberrations; finally you could give a special feat that deals 1 point of int damage for every 3 caster levels to aberrations if they fail the save. The justification for this would be that this band of travelers has had to fight off the creatures for generations and have developed their magic specifically to fight them off.This could functionally serve as the basis for your hexes and you could add minor effects. You can do the same thing for illusionists for another, more brutal flavor of hex caster; mind flayers stock from the MM have a will of +9 but a garbage fort (+4), so phantasmal killer (PHB 260) with a +3 on the save DC is pretty hardcore. A +3 on hallucinatory terrain or mirage arcana would also be very useful for throwing flayers off track. Feeblemind with an increased save DC would also force flayers to plan carefully before attacking. Duskblades and divine minds would make effective soldiers because they're good in melee, can attack multiple lines of personal defense, SR isn't a big deal (if you choose good divine mind mantles), and they have good will saves.

    Because they go into the underdark on illithid raids, would it be safe to say that they have an "agreement" with the drow, derro, and svirfneblin? Would it fit to have a few Sage/Mystic Wanderers in their camp?
    It would make sense for anybody with the will and ability to fight flayers to tema up, but as they say pride goeth before the fall, and for all their intelligence the drow are characterized by pride so I don't think it makes sense for them to team up with anybody. They may simply decide not to attack this tribe because they see their continued existence as a boon in their conflict with the flayers, but it doesn't seem to me like they'd make any kind of deal unless the situation was really dire, and even then whether they could be trusted to keep their end (being drow and all) would be suspect. Derro are mad as hatters so bargaining with them is out of the question, but bluffing may not be. Since they focus on trap use though, bluffing derro may not be particularly useful anyway. Svirfwhatever gnomes are reasonable, if paranoid, and would probably accept most allies against flayers or drow, and it seems not terribly unlikely they would have a representative or two traveling with the nomads.

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    Default Re: Gypsies

    You do realize "gypsies" are an actual ethnic group right? And that you can find a lot of basic historical/cultural information about them on Wikipedia?

    My suggestion is that you should take into account that their warrior-types are also going to have to pull double duty doing day-to-day work, since they can't really afford to have full-time guards, and thus should have classes like Ranger or Factotum which give extra skill points and are less exclusively combat oriented. Casters are going to probably have diversified spell lists for much the same reason; mostly buffs/heals/crowd control with a few direct damage or Save-or-Suck as flavoring. Avoid making them Bards, Rogues, Beguilers, Oracles (if PF is allowed), or anything which plays on the Thief/Dancer/Fortuneteller/Witch stereotypes; it's racist and tacky.

    With the Illithids in the backstory, Githyanqi and Githzerai are pretty cool if a little weak for Outsider races. Both are, essentially, nomadic former slaves of the Illithids who hunt them across the cosmos; the only difference is that they have a millenia-old blood feud which has crossed the lines into full speciation. Maybe two nearby camps, one of each Gith race, who are only held back from bloodshed by the prospect of an Illithid hunt? Gives the PCs a chance to play peacemaker for once, and Romeo-Juliet type subplots are easy to figure out if a little trite.

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    Gypsies Roma-inspired nomads would use the same tried and true muscle everyone else does. Big heavy guys with swords, spears, and armor, who don't have time for your nonsense, and will beat you savagely into the dirt in defense of their tribe. And since we're talking about a socially-isolated nomad group stereotyped for mysticism, it's all about a) Minimizing casualties, b) Teamwork, and c) Will saves. Their tactics should be strong and clever.

    Tanks can be Crusader12s with Power Attack, some with reach-weapons, some with swords, some with Iron Guard's Glare (for tanking enemy attack bonuses and looking scary as hell). Focus on Devoted Spirit and White Raven, get them to surround single/isolated enemies and stack their "teamwork" maneuvers to great effect. Healing maneuvers and delayed damage might get across the feeling of being tough as nails. Significantly-damaged Tanks retreat, get healed, and return if able.

    Casters (straight Sorcerers seem appropriate, I like the SF(enchantment) suggestions) lay down Haste to buff the Tanks, and use Enchantment save-or-lose to end battles quickly and with a minimum of casualties. Confusion, Feeblemind.. Mind Fog, although not optimal, can be flavorful ("a pink fog appears over you, your thoughts start feeling fuzzy.. Roll a Will save". Tanks don't need to worry about the Mind Fog, because they're not being targeted with Will saves ). Readied action Wall of Stone (and/or Solid Fog) to isolate PCs for easier takedowns (tanks step off for wall-space, then a straight line which a foe or two has to walk around or climb over to get back into the fight. Either way they lose at least a round of actions).

    Clerics (any kind of divine spontaneous-healer) stand a little behind the casters, tend any wounded Tanks who fall back, and lay down Greater Command (Halt or Fall) when there's nothing better to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    You do realize "gypsies" are an actual ethnic group right? And that you can find a lot of basic historical/cultural information about them on Wikipedia?

    My suggestion is that you should take into account that their warrior-types are also going to have to pull double duty doing day-to-day work, since they can't really afford to have full-time guards, and thus should have classes like Ranger or Factotum which give extra skill points and are less exclusively combat oriented. Casters are going to probably have diversified spell lists for much the same reason; mostly buffs/heals/crowd control with a few direct damage or Save-or-Suck as flavoring. Avoid making them Bards, Rogues, Beguilers, Oracles (if PF is allowed), or anything which plays on the Thief/Dancer/Fortuneteller/Witch stereotypes; it's racist and tacky.
    Honestly, basing your fictional Gypsies on Carmen or Notre-Dame de Paris is more literary than "tacky."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Water_Bear View Post
    Avoid making them Bards, Rogues, Beguilers, Oracles (if PF is allowed), or anything which plays on the Thief/Dancer/Fortuneteller/Witch stereotypes; it's racist and tacky.
    Yeah, and don't make asian-based characters into ninjas/samurai/wu jen/martial artists. Or caucasian-based characters into knights/priests/wizards, or central-american/native-american/african-based characters into war-painted feather-wearing hunters/priests, or inuit-based characters into spear-wielding hunters, or arabic-based characters into robe/sash-wearing scimitar-wielders, or celtic-based characters into drunk woad-wearing warrior-poets, or scandinavian-based characters into horned-helmet wearing axe-wielding bezerker longboatmen, or anything like that.
    Last edited by Seharvepernfan; 2012-11-14 at 01:17 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seharvepernfan View Post
    Yeah, and don't make asian-based characters into ninjas/samurai/wu jen/martial artists. Or caucasian-based characters into knights/priests/wizards, or central-american/native-american/african-based characters into war-painted feather-wearing hunters/priests, or inuit-based characters into spear-wielding hunters, or arabic-based characters into robe/sash-wearing scimitar-wielders, or celtic-based characters into drunk woad-wearing warrior-poets, or scandinavian-based characters into horned-helmet wearing axe-wielding bezerker longboatmen, or anything like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Seharvepernfan View Post
    Yeah, and don't make asian-based characters into ninjas/samurai/wu jen/martial artists. Or caucasian-based characters into knights/priests/wizards, or central-american/native-american/african-based characters into war-painted feather-wearing hunters/priests, or inuit-based characters into spear-wielding hunters, or arabic-based characters into robe/sash-wearing scimitar-wielders, or celtic-based characters into drunk woad-wearing warrior-poets, or scandinavian-based characters into horned-helmet wearing axe-wielding bezerker longboatmen, or anything like that.


    If you really can't see the difference between perpetuating stereotypes which depict a historically oppressed culture as consisting entirely of vengeful thieves prostitutes and witches, and having vikings in your game, that's a pretty serious problem.

    I'm not trying to be Mr Buzzkill here, but Roma have been repeatedly massacred because people thought they were thieving vagabonds and child-stealing witches, and are still persecuted today all over the world based on those same myths. I'm almost certain you wouldn't use similar racial caricatures of Jewish people Africans or Native Americans in your games so why is treating the Roma with the bare minimum of respect such a hardship?

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    You want Gypsies eh? *opens up the Ravenloft Campaign Setting* ever heard of the Vistani?
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    The Vistani are actually a template that I'm personalizing for this group. I knew long ago that this world (this continent, in particular), that we've created for our home brew is full of fog.

    It just makes sense.
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