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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    I have a new player who's worked up a fifth-level beguiler for my seafaring campaign. He did a good job with the build, and I was impressed enough with the character to suggest that, for his first Advanced Learning spell, he could select a first-level option from schools outside of illusion and enchantment.

    He's interested in Ray of Enfeeblement, and now I'm wondering if I was a little too quick with my generosity. I have a couple of concerns in particular:

    1. There will be naval battles and other encounters with a fair number of opponents, meaning NPCs I have to keep track of. I'm worried that multiple Rays of Enfeeblement will lead to a lot of on-the-fly recalculation, with different Strength penalties on different NPCs, which could really slow down an encounter.

    2. Also, there's no save for this spell, and touch attacks will be easy to make across the board.

    So, with this in mind, is Ray of Enfeeblement a little too much? Or should I not worry about one little first-level spell?

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    RogueGuy

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Palanan View Post
    I have a new player who's worked up a fifth-level beguiler for my seafaring campaign. He did a good job with the build, and I was impressed enough with the character to suggest that, for his first Advanced Learning spell, he could select a first-level option from schools outside of illusion and enchantment.

    He's interested in Ray of Enfeeblement, and now I'm wondering if I was a little too quick with my generosity. I have a couple of concerns in particular:

    1. There will be naval battles and other encounters with a fair number of opponents, meaning NPCs I have to keep track of. I'm worried that multiple Rays of Enfeeblement will lead to a lot of on-the-fly recalculation, with different Strength penalties on different NPCs, which could really slow down an encounter.

    2. Also, there's no save for this spell, and touch attacks will be easy to make across the board.

    So, with this in mind, is Ray of Enfeeblement a little too much? Or should I not worry about one little first-level spell?
    It really depends, how many of those NPCs do you plan on being able to swim and not have water breathing?

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    nedz's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    In a sea going campaign it the long range spells which are useful, but only if you do ship to ship combat. Fireball is actually good for this reason. RoE is not long ranged.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Short answer: no. RoE is fine, but not very long range. His regular beguiler stuff will likely still be what he does most.

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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    RoE is ok. It's no save but it isn't an auto-lose anyway, just a fair penalty.
    Empowered RoE OTOH can be a real pain for the target. If he has any kind of armor he might not be able to move so I suppose that could save you the math. For others their damage still decreases tremendously from both missing frequently and doing less when they do finally hit.

    It's not that great at long range, but I suspect like 99% of campaigns the PCs will eventually get close too.

    Tracking ability score changes takes a bit of math but you won't be tracking a half dozen changes. Most fights aren't long enough for that, and he has other options. You'll probably only be tracking 1 or 2. To save a little math you can write down the creature's new attack bonus and damage at the time he is hit rather than recalculating every round.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Ray of Enfeeblement
    It is no save, but it is still subject to Spell Resistance.
    It's a naval campaign in a magical world? I'm pretty sure it would make sense that ships can be given their own spell resistance, which can extend to the crew.
    Even something like 5 or 10 spell resistance can do the job. Not completely stall the player, but make RoE not a guarantee either.


    And yes, his other Beguiler stuff is probably going to be a larger issue.
    Last edited by Karoht; 2012-11-14 at 11:05 AM.
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    Kobold

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Ships CAN be given SR: I think it's in the Stronghold Builder's Guidebook. I can't recall if it extends to the crew, though.

    As an aside, are you sure you now how SR works? Against a 5th level Beguiler, which the character is right now, SR 5 does diddly squat, and SR 10 fares little better.
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    Titan in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    SR is crazy expensive though. Which makes it that much more dickish to stop a measly level 1 spell with it. A no save debuff is not an auto win. It's an auto help. Plus cover and firing into melee means it often isn't auto hit either, at least not for about 7 or so more levels. Or after a couple feats which should have a benefit since it cost him feats.

    Empowered RoE is a bit crazier, but I'm not sure he's even allowed to get it, it's still only single target with an attack roll and at 3rd level it better be fireball-worthy. And by the time you max it out and face a major lone foe rather than a group that guy probably has SR anyway.
    Last edited by ericgrau; 2012-11-14 at 12:41 PM.
    So you never have to interrupt a game to look up a rule again:
    My 3.5e Rules Cheat Sheets: Normal, With Consolidated Skill System
    TOGC's 3.5e Spell/etc Cards: rpgnow / drivethru rpg
    Utilities: Magic Item Shop Generator (Req. MS Excel), Balanced Low Magic Item System
    Printable Cardstock Dungeon Tiles: Part 1, 2

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    I'f you're worried about keeping track of every modifier in combat, then the best answers are spreadsheets. Finding a format, that would suit your needs might take a while, but a computer can be your friend in times of need.
    In a war it doesn't matter who's right, only who's left.

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Traditionally FIRE is what kills ships. So some sort of fire res would be much more relevant than SR, if that's possible.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    For a Ray of Enfeeblement or similar penalty, I'll typically do the following:
    - Determine how much the targeted foe's Str bonus (rather than Str score) is penalized by. Make the caster keep track of the specific Str penalty, as well as durations.
    - Put a tiny d6 on that mini's base to show the penalty to its Str bonus, and subtract that from any Sr-based rolls it makes (melee attack/damage, grapple, trip, etc.).

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Thanks to everyone for the thoughts so far. It sounds like Ray of Enfeeblement by itself isn't much to worry about; "auto-help rather than auto-win" is a good way to put it, and the fact that it's close range helps alleviate some other concerns.

    Originally Posted by Radar
    I'f you're worried about keeping track of every modifier in combat, then the best answers are spreadsheets.
    In fact I'd love to have a spreadsheet that tracks initiative and attack mods, and maybe even generates attack rolls, but unfortunately my spreadsheet skills are thin indeed.

    Originally Posted by Karoht
    It's a naval campaign in a magical world? I'm pretty sure it would make sense that ships can be given their own spell resistance, which can extend to the crew.
    Originally Posted by ericgrau
    SR is crazy expensive though.
    Originally Posted by nedz
    Traditionally FIRE is what kills ships. So some sort of fire res would be much more relevant than SR, if that's possible.
    Either SR or fire resistance would make theoretical sense, certainly--but as ericgrau points out, this sort of enchantment is insanely expensive.

    The ship that's currently carrying the PCs is approximately 114 ft. long, with a 32-ft. beam, and is one of the larger ships from its home port. I don't know how much SR would cost for a ship its size, but it's probably far, far more than a trading company would want to spend--or could even afford.

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    NinjaGuy

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Is anyone taking into account the inherent weaknesses of a spell like RoE as a ranged attack? It's short range, and it's a touch AC in an environment were (if I'm guessing correctly) men with low dex and heavy armor make really good anchors.

    If most of your on ship fighting is against high dex characters then you can expect the bad BAB of a beguiler to come into play. It doesn't make the situation impossible for the beguiler either though. A good surprise round will leave you player with a content look on his face.. "look it worked" but with enough magical perception from your spell casters, and a high enough dex with your fighters it means he won't be able to use this spell successfully more than once or twice an encounter.

    I'd say it's fairly neutral as spells go. Not horrible not great

    P.S. Knome Beguiler - with heighten spell, and earth spell, prestige into shadow craft mage, for the win....but only if your on the ground.

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Donny_Green View Post
    P.S. Knome Beguiler - with heighten spell, and earth spell, prestige into shadow craft mage, for the win....but only if your on the ground.
    less useful in a nautical game

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Make sandals out of stone slabs, and you can always use Earth Spell regardless of where you are.

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    Ogre in the Playground
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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    *
    Some DM approval required.


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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    Make sandals out of stone slabs, and you can always use Earth Spell regardless of where you are.
    Good luck with these if you end up having to swim.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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    Biffoniacus_Furiou's Avatar

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by nedz View Post
    Good luck with these if you end up having to swim.
    You can put some thin slabs of shale or slate in some regular leather sandals and it probably wouldn't even add one pound of weight, especially on a small size character. You could also just go with Air Gnome and never worry about drowning.

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    Default Re: Ray of Enfeeblement for a Beguiler?

    Quote Originally Posted by Biffoniacus_Furiou View Post
    You can put some thin slabs of shale or slate in some regular leather sandals and it probably wouldn't even add one pound of weight, especially on a small size character. You could also just go with Air Gnome and never worry about drowning.
    Why not just fill your shoes with dirt, or even sand ?

    Unless I'm reading the feat incorrectly that should work.
    π = 4
    Consider a 5' radius blast: this affects 4 squares which have a circumference of 40' Actually it's worse than that.


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